Large scale battles

[mattsdelf]

I play Dnd 3.5 and one thing I found that I do sometimes when I DM is to send the players into battles with ally's and/or a lot of enemies. They are currently working for the military of one of the factions in the game. Problems with this include that each round takes about an hour, and that you have to write a lot of things down. Has anyone has discovered an easier way to do large scale battles that don't take as long to play out, and don't require a stack of papers a mile high to finish, without losing roleplay? It would really help make my games a lot more progressive.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea. Have the actual battle be background. Only roll initiative and stuff for the monsters the party is directly interacting with. Alternately, use the mob template, or one of the homebrew military unit templates:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/militaryUnitByTemplate&page=1
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19572970/A_Single-Template_Mass_Combat_Mechanic?pg=1
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129179
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75046

Or, take D&D to the logical conclusion that there are no actual large scale battles in the fantasy epic sense, and not lots of packed soldiers, and the military is just a bunch of casters that are the trainable type of classes (wizard, psion, archivist), in relatively low numbers, flying about and solving problems and such.

[Kol Korran]

i highly suggest you read Heroes of Battle, it deals with this thing specifically. in short however:
- decide on each sides' battle plan before hand, and play it out using reasonable assumptions in a few stages in the big battle. write to yourself down general indications such as:
10 minutes into battle:
The Horde: the ogre shock troops clash with the main force, worgs make the first half of their maneuver, in the north woods. one artilerry down to humans' caster, , 10 percent hobgoblins down due to archers, high moral.
the Empire: Cavalry still at ready, firstline suffers heavy casualties due to ogres, scouts fail to spot worgs, Zolag expends two fireballs at artillery, taking 1 down. morale medium.

and so on and so on. that way you have a general concept of the battle.

into this the PCs enter, and they might change things. give each side "Stock units" which are composed mostly of the same kind of unit, perhaps a second for variety, perhaps a minor leader or buffer if you're really fancy. have 3-6 such "stock units" to each side to represent the battle. that way you can fit an opponent against the PCs depending on what they do.

there is a whole system of "victory" points in the book which amounts to how much effect the PCs had on the battle, but you can probably make that yourself.

The books highly recommend assigning all kind of special In field assignments in stead of just grinding the PCs against troops: "defend the bridge till we can get troops there!", "take down the sniping unit on the hill!", "Stop the undead minotaur- he's destroying moral!" "reach The caster unit and defend them from the surprise attack" and so on... each is a sort of an encounter.

hopefully this can help. but again- i suggest the book. not all of it is good, but quite a few great concepts.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Are you using lots and lots of little guys for enemies? If you, you may want to look at this "unit template (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtyz664?Military-Unit-by-template)." I recently ran an encounter with a whole bunch of them simulating 50-person platoons of archers, and while it did take a while, it was a lot of fun, and much more challenging than just throwing the same number of mooks at the players (not to mention WAY less rolling).

[Gavinfoxx]

@Grod: I already linked to that.

[mattsdelf]

Wow, thank you, I posted this with no idea how to deal with the problem. You have given me now more information than i can digest in a single read, and solved my problem in 4 or 5 different ways in a couple of hours. This was my first thread on the forum, and now i see just exactly how awesome it is. I will order Heroes of Battle, and keep the links bookmarked or subscribed. This is perfect for my campaign and will save me and my players hours of gameplay time.

[Fyermind]

@mattsdelf What is even more awesome is that people like me who are interested in these things but don't need them yet can scan through and learn ways of solving problems we wouldn't have dared to raise. Stick around and contribute.

On topic: Have people found some good builds for generic soldiers that allow them to still be dangerous more than 5% of the time to characters 5 levels higher than they are?

I am looking for level 1-4 soldiers that in numbers can challenge level 5-10 players.

[mattsdelf]

@Fyermind, I hadn't previously figured out how to do large scale battles in a simpler way, but i think i can answer the question of doing large scale battles in a more complex way.

One thing I did was with undead leadership. The Libris Mortis has Corpsecraft feats that improve created undead, this can be used with higher level leaders to have tough low level undead soldiers with higher stats all around.

Also, the group dynamics an effective unit needs are different from what the players need. Because you don't need to save them for possible later encounters, any casters in your ranks can use all of their spells at once, and you could cast a lot of them. Take a look at 1st and 2nd level spells. You could try groups of casters. A rank casting magic missiles that block out the sun is a lot of magic missiles, even if it is a first level spell. A variation of Warmages and Clerics working together would be lethal. If you really want to amp up the power of low level units, you could make some gestalt.

The cool part is that you only have to design one for each role you want to use and copy and paste. You could also use the NPC generator at Myth Weavers and just hit randomize until it comes up with something that looks optimized.

[Kol Korran]

On topic: Have people found some good builds for generic soldiers that allow them to still be dangerous more than 5% of the time to characters 5 levels higher than they are?

I am looking for level 1-4 soldiers that in numbers can challenge level 5-10 players.

D&D's assumption is that such low level enemies should mostly be steam rolled unless they have a special ability. considering these are likely not elite, poorly equipped, and mostly of the same kind of class (mostly warrior?) they do have little chance.

most of the low level units form the following roles:
- they waste party resources (even minor spells/ wands and so on)
- they keep the party busy, stalling time for other troops (sure, we can beat this 30 people unit, but before the goblin fixers detonate the wall?)
- they make the party feel awesome once in awhile (and that is important too!)
- with mass buffering they can become dangerous.

on the whole i suggest the common troops to deal with the common troops, and let the PCs deal with the Elite troops. if the PCs insist on facing the common troops, allow the elite troops to achieve their goals, thuis seriously affecting the combat's results.

that said, certain armies may have more special builds, but a few thoughts:
1- you can have some sort of buffer in the back/ middle of the unit. simple ones can be:
- low level marshal with auras
- low level dragon shaman with auras
- low level ToB character with white raven stances and possibly maneuvers- can seriously affect battle.
- low level bard with the Song of the heart feat (ECS)- giving everyone and extra +2

2- a great friend of low level mooks is the Aid Another tactic. 2 mooks giving a +4 to attack to their friend can help bypass that higher AC of characters. hitting them with a big weapons, or more to the point- tripping/ sundering/ grappling

3-if we're on the subject of grappling- many mid- high level characters are not well prepared or this tactics that might be used by more savage/ less afraid to die troops. 4 hobgoblins who try and grapple your 10 level fighter have a nice chance. and once he's pinned- all it takes is a knife.

4- for time stallers- heavy/ tower shields and full defense. while the archers at the back fire hail of arrows, or the pikmen/ halberdiers/ those with reach attack from behind them. sort of a porcupine move.

5- Heroes of battle if i remember have quite a few feats and tactics that rely on several people or mass fire.

6- the odd alchemical item: each small unit has 1-3 people in it that carry simple yet effective alchemical items to help deal/ delay troublesome enemies. this especially works with enemies who have all kind of immunities and such (undead, constructs): a tangle foot, a thunderstone against casters, and probably many more suggestions of items through out the books. fairly cheap, and add surprise.

7- against heavy moving PCs- skirmishers and/ or cavalry: fast moving possibly dispersed unites with ranged weapons that harass the characters. true, this is usually not the common stock unit, but it should be fun.

8- casters' support: casters can usually cast from a reasonable ("safe away" distance to affect the troops with buffs. haste? mass resist energy? there are probably more (again, heroes of battle have spells especially for that effect)

just some simple suggestions, i hope this can help. on the whole though, other than 1-2 encounter with the common troops for fun and mayham, i'd focus on the more Elite Troops.

[Gwendol]

As long as no buffers are on their side: clerics, marshalls, or... Gasp... Bards. Inclusion of those classes can easily tip the advantage this way or that, and can create incentive for good in-battle missions for the PC's.

[Duke of URL]

Oddly enough, I've got a system for that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95923). (A preliminary version... it's a work in development.)

Short version: masses of weak troops pose no real threat to a PC, especially once DR comes into play. This system basically says -- if 10 CR 1 creatures are an EL 7 encounter, then take a squad of 10 "soldiers" and treat them as a single CR 7 creature. They lose actions, but the actions they do take have some hope of effectiveness.

As attrition reduces their numbers (or they are split by tactical maneuvering) the squad's effective CR drops, making it less effective.

Plus, it's easier to make armies battle it out against each other, because you can simulate two armies coming together as just a fight between two sets of NPC characters, rather than dealing with each member of the army separately.

[Downysole]

I recently did a simulation of Helm's Deep (book and movie mixed a little) and one of the things that I did to make it easy on myself and fun for the party was to have myself a series of stats made up for the orcs.

So here's how it went: The party was making a stand at Helm's Dike in order to let the Rohirrim make it to the wall unharmed. One of the party members sees a slight glimmer off on the mountains leading towards Lothlorien with a silly high spot check and then it goes away as he starts helping fend off the first wave. The orcs being sent at them had standard gear and there was a sergeant with them with slightly better stats giving orders. The group would work with decent tactics while the sergeant was there, and when he died, would basically bury themselves on their enemy's swords while trying to kill them.

To make it really interesting, I made an NPC with PC levels for each member of the party. Cleric, Barb., Bard, and Fighter (ranged). Each was level 7ish so there were some fun effects going on.

First wave didn't take long to take down.
Second wave got buffed by the cleric and were harder to kill.
Third wave was also similarly buffed, but then they were buffed by the bard.
Final wave was buffed by both and led by the Cleric with nice aura stuff going on.

After defeating the fourth wave in sequential combat, the elves showed up and did a bunch of flashy lights (happened to save one of our valorous PCs from imminent doom) and the party was able to escape to the protection of the wall.

So, since I knew exactly what I wanted to do (I wrote out something very similar to what I wrote above in my notebook), it was a matter of statting out the various NPCs with class levels, statting out the base mooks, then buffing them up. With the progressively harder waves, finally led by an NPC, the party really was challenged and had a great time.

In the end, the victory they earned was not just for XP either. They gained unexpected allies who would have been too late to the party, and they earned victory points for each wave held off plus one for completion.

[mattsdelf]

I have another question, say you have a legion of wizards, what are some ways to make their combine magic more awesome. I am aware of the Red Wizards in the DMG, and the cooperative spell feat, but those where the only ones i could find. In what other ways could you make having a lot of people casting the same spell be more beneficial? (taking Circle magic and cooperative spell as examples)

[Gavinfoxx]

If you have a lot of Wizards (with a few of at least level 5, perhaps?), mundane armies as groups of mundane are already completely obsolete, without any spell combining at all.

Remember, Wizards can fly, be invisible, assassinate enemy generals, stop charges, destroy an enemy camp, summon invisible animals to disrupt lines, lead entire units into illusory traps, charm or dominate people, be completely immune to missile weapons, etc. etc.

Read this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239695

[Averis Vol]

it depends on how magic heavy the world is i guess, if they're popping out wizards like they are NPC warriors then yea, of course they're going to be a threat. but any decent level mages might be a bit more skeptical of flying right into the air and making himself a target, i mean you don't become a high level mage by putting yourself at risk. remember, protection from arrows and wind wall don't work against catapults.

[Gavinfoxx]

Not being able to be targeted, and miss chances, and them not knowing which square you are in, and various fog clouds and other such things on the other hand... works JUST FINE against catapults!!

Really, read that thread!

[Averis Vol]

i could read the thread but i guarantee its just another reason why wizards should be the only class played, and, i'v seen more then my fair share of those. for what i suggest i'm talking a high end low op game, seeing as that's what i tend to play, ya know, games where paladins still have a place and not every wizard abuses the very fabrics of reality.

short rant aside, i did look at it, the first post comes down to "so what kind of mages are you using?" after the OP, so i assume i'm right in my rant.

i'm actually running a large scale war scene to myself, and what i intend to do is...just not have the PC's get caught up in the mook tidal wave. they have a more important mission that has to do with the enemy base. the reason i do this is because honestly, its too hard to run a full on war scene, especially sense this is a big fight and i don't have nearly enough matching figurines. :smallbiggrin: or the patience to sit through it. though i did plan originally to have it work out more like a fire emblem game, where they just move the squads and they face off as a group.

[mattsdelf]

I read the thread you linked, what it means is that having mass numbers of spellcasters would break the style of mass military combat. Someone said if I did have an army of wizards, it would be casting thousands of spells per round, and would make for a very different type of war. That makes sense, so it would overcome anything it was put up against that wasn't also capable of casting so many spells. It would break nearly any dnd campaign you put players in, unless it was the premise of the game. So what it comes to is that you can't use a lot of cooperative casters in large scale combat without throwing the whole system out of whack. This is why the Red Wizards of Thay where such a big deal. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well not necessarily lots of spells per round. But tactically, a state should probably invest in training as many casters as possible into people who can cast at least 2nd level spells for their army. Int based casters are trainable -- so that means archivist, wizard, and psion. Also, if they want shock troops / fodder, just infect normal people with lycanthropy, and psychic reformation them to get that shapechange skill (I heard bear is useful for this?).

It also means that warfare becomes much more like submarine warfare. Groups of flying invisible casters who are mentally linked hunting for a killing solution on other flying, invisible casters. After those are taken out, they can pretty much destroy whatever else they want with impunity...

[mattsdelf]

For brief summary of the campaign in question, I am running a campaign that features a group of facist mind flayers politically take over a kingdom well known for having a lot of wizards, and organize the mages into a military force. it was supposed to be overpowered, and take over three other kingdoms who use mostly fighters, one of which the players are working for. The players, and what is left of their faction get help from another guild of mages who want to fight back. Eventually the players are teleported into the big city of the mind flayers and take out the leadership. and then the rest of the mind flayers leave, and peace is restored. So even if it is high power, it can do exactly what i expect it to do, and still can work for the campaign.

[JadePhoenix]

I think Miniatures Handbook has a system for that