Coo Day Graw

[Mari01]

What is your opinion on using this tactic against PC's? My players are becoming a little too comfortable in surviving fights. They've always gone with "Enemies wouldn't take time to finish off downed enemies when there's others still swinging." They have a good point. But there's also been time's where they would not have survived if they enemies finished off their meal before moving on. Should doing this mid combat be on most intelligent enemy minds? I know they are attached to characters, but what's combat without any risk?

TL;DR Coup de grace mid combat on downed PC's. Opinions?

[Righteous Doggy]

I wouldn't, not unless I really really thought they had it coming. Especially not if their are other foes on the field. Why would I finish off someone who's been downed, eh? That other guy is still tryinig to murderize me. PC death can be incredibly painful too. So... think about peoples feelings before you go and do a thing like that.

Also think of it also from the PCs view, most pcs don't even consider Coup de Grace as a viable tactic. or from a realistic view, you just saw someone go down, they probably aren't getting up and they're most likely dead.

[AmberVael]

Personally, I wouldn't do it. I find the 'element of risk' to be overrated in gaming experiences- I'd prefer to encourage heavier character investment. That said, some people do prefer to play with an element of risk. I bring up my personal preference as an example that different people will have different feelings on the subject.

In light of this fact, before you begin making changes in tactics that could prove fatal to PCs, I suggest talking with your players and making sure that they would find this more engaging and interesting. Even if they all agree without question, having an open understanding of it will probably be better than having it show up as a particularly nasty surprise.

[Snowbluff]

My opinion? Leave it to chance. Have bad guys with guns ask the players if the feel lucky (Punks... roll a d6). Or pull a Two-Face and flip a coin.

...or pull a Terezi. Flip a coin, have the player call it. If the result is favorable, ask them what coin flip they are talking about. When they answer, remind them that the prosecution didn't see any coin flip. Because she's blind, REMEMBER?! :smallamused:

Good for blind villains.

[Heatwizard]

What does coupe dee grays get an enemy? Unless it's been a real knock-down brawl and someone's been running around continually picking his teammates back up from negatives, it's a waste of a turn, because the dude's already down. He's not going anywhere. Note how the PCs aren't going to bother much with couping their enemies until the fight's over. The risk is that someone's trying to kill them.

If you do decide to introduce enemies who take the time to behead and dispose of every corpse mid-fight (and I could see some archetypes doing that; monster hunters by trade could develop a habit of 'double-tapping' since they have to deal with trolls and such. Or someone who really revels in the gore: particularly immoral mercs, or bad guy religious zealots? I'm just running my mouth off here, though), though, then at least give 'em some hints before they engage that they'll need to protect downed party members. When they first show up, have them be in the middle of a fight in which they're winning, and using coup on enemies mid-fight, or something like that.

[Jack_Simth]

What is your opinion on using this tactic against PC's? My players are becoming a little too comfortable in surviving fights. They've always gone with "Enemies wouldn't take time to finish off downed enemies when there's others still swinging." They have a good point. But there's also been time's where they would not have survived if they enemies finished off their meal before moving on. Should doing this mid combat be on most intelligent enemy minds? I know they are attached to characters, but what's combat without any risk?
Well, it depends on the group, and a bunch of random people on the internet can't really help much with that. You may get some different perspectives - like, say "what's the opinion of the NPC potentially doing the CdG?" or "How did they get in the helpless state? A character that can be woken up with a slap because they're down by Sleep is a different story than a character that is at -8 hp."

When it comes down to it, though, it depends on what your group considers 'fun', which is something you'll need to ask them.

[Mari01]

The party consists mostly of half-orcs. Anyone they fight knows that putting them down is hard, but keeping them down is even harder.

[RndmNumGen]

"How did they get in the helpless state? A character that can be woken up with a slap because they're down by Sleep is a different story than a character that is at -8 hp."

This is the biggest factor for me. If somebody is down due to say, Slumber Hex, and will be waking up next turn, a CDG is a perfectly valid tactic to make sure they never wake up.

If somebody went down due to falling into the negatives however, odds are they will not be getting up again. It makes a lot more tactical sense to focus on the people who are still trying to kill you than to finish off somebody who might already be dead anyway.

[Mari01]

This is the biggest factor for me. If somebody is down due to say, Slumber Hex, and will be waking up next turn, a CDG is a perfectly valid tactic to make sure they never wake up.

If somebody went down due to falling into the negatives however, odds are they will not be getting up again. It makes a lot more tactical sense to focus on the people who are still trying to kill you than to finish off somebody who might already be dead anyway.

I guess this answers my question. It seems like so many times someone gets knocked into the negatives repeatedly. The recurring BBEG never seems to learn that they wont just stay dead.

[Shadowknight12]

Proper pronunciation is "Coop deh Grahss". Coop as written, Deh as in debt and Grahss as in grass but pronounced with the "ah" sound of "heart".

Other than that, I have no opinions on the subject. Depends on my arrangements with the players.

EDIT: Oh my. When did I take levels in swordsage?

[Malimar]

Yeah, I basically agree with what everybody else is saying.

Except you're mispronouncing it. At least according to every dictionary I can find; I don't actually speak French or anything. The "c" is not silent; it's more like "coo day grahs". :smallamused:

[deuxhero]

As others have said, depends on how the helplessness is achieved.

Hold Person has a much higher priority because it gets a new save every round while negative hit points is extremely low.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Proper pronunciation is "Coop deh Grahss". Coop as written, Deh as in debt and Grahss as in grass but pronounced with the "ah" sound of "heart".

obligatory dictionary link (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Coup+de+gras)
Coo Day Graw is a rough, but appropriate guide for pronouncing it.

[Waker]

In addition to the comments about how the helplessness was achieved, I must also ask if the party tactics are based on an understanding that the enemy won't coup de grace them. If the party is leaving downed allies alone because they think the enemy won't "waste" an action killing them, I say slit their throats. While some characters are able to look at a situation with cold logic, most characters are expected to care enough about teammates to try and save them whenever they go down.
Consider giving an enemy Death Blow (CAdv) which allows them to coup de grace as a standard action. If you run undead, you could consider giving one Eviscerator (LM) which while being feat intensive, would allow you to make them shaken whenever you kill one of them. Also an option is Blood in the Water from ToB, allowing your monsters to get a small buff in exchange for finishing off the players.. If you use PF, there are other methods available, such as the Bandit archetypes Fearsome Strike.

[Zaq]

Last time I had a monster attempt a CdG on a PC*, the perpetrator was the last one standing, he was on his last legs, the PCs were not in a merciful mood, he had a dying PC at his feet and another (alive and deadly) PC at his throat, and he was in the sights of a nasty PC archer he knew he couldn't outrun. Oh, and he was CE, for what that's worth. He decided that if he was gonna die, he was sure as hell gonna take someone with him. In short, the CdG wasn't for tactics; the CdG was for spite. (It didn't work, but it made sense that he would try.)

*Full disclosure: This was a 4e game, but really, it wouldn't have made much of a difference if the same scenario had popped up in 3.5.

[TypoNinja]

If players are leaving downed allies alone the answer is not finishing them off, the answer is IC vs OOC knowledge.

We've had this come up a few times, especially in close fights.

Tell downed PC's they are not allowed to announce their current HP. That is OOC information (unless the other character has some magical means of assessing them, there are a couple).

The mystery is more exciting. I've watched nail biting moments where a guy looks back at forth between me (the DM) and his downed ally trying to decide if he should finish off the badguys or save his downed ally. Do you have one round to save him? or five? Saving your buddy leaves you open to beats from the bad guy, but what if he bleeds out while you clean up the mooks?

Oh the suspense! :D

[Shadowknight12]

obligatory dictionary link (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Coup+de+gras)
Coo Day Graw is a rough, but appropriate guide for pronouncing it.

English: butchering appropriated words and terms since medieval times.

(For the record, I was approximating a proper French pronunciation. The ends of the words ("p", "eh" and "ss") are very soft, and English lacks proper phonemes to represent them (why, it did away with the p and the ss sound altogether and added a superfluous "y" to the end of "deh" when it appropriated the term), but I did my best to approximate it)

[DefKab]

Last time I had a monster attempt a CdG on a PC*, the perpetrator was the last one standing, he was on his last legs, the PCs were not in a merciful mood, he had a dying PC at his feet and another (alive and deadly) PC at his throat, and he was in the sights of a nasty PC archer he knew he couldn't outrun. Oh, and he was CE, for what that's worth. He decided that if he was gonna die, he was sure as hell gonna take someone with him. In short, the CdG wasn't for tactics; the CdG was for spite. (It didn't work, but it made sense that he would try.)

*Full disclosure: This was a 4e game, but really, it wouldn't have made much of a difference if the same scenario had popped up in 3.5.

This brings up an interesting situation... You're the last guy standing, the rest of your team is dead, and though you've got arrows pointed at your forehead, you have a guy who just might not be dead at your feet. Do you try to take one more guy down with your last breath, or swoop up that damned PC and bargain for your life against his with a CdG? I think this could make for an interesting plot point, where they either kill their friend, or let the bad guy go free one more time.

[Righteous Doggy]

This brings up an interesting situation... You're the last guy standing, the rest of your team is dead, and though you've got arrows pointed at your forehead, you have a guy who just might not be dead at your feet. Do you try to take one more guy down with your last breath, or swoop up that damned PC and bargain for your life against his with a CdG? I think this could make for an interesting plot point, where they either kill their friend, or let the bad guy go free one more time.

Isn't that a cliche?

[Mari01]

In addition to the comments about how the helplessness was achieved, I must also ask if the party tactics are based on an understanding that the enemy won't coup de grace them. If the party is leaving downed allies alone because they think the enemy won't "waste" an action killing them, I say slit their throats. While some characters are able to look at a situation with cold logic, most characters are expected to care enough about teammates to try and save them whenever they go down.
Consider giving an enemy Death Blow (CAdv) which allows them to coup de grace as a standard action. If you run undead, you could consider giving one Eviscerator (LM) which while being feat intensive, would allow you to make them shaken whenever you kill one of them. Also an option is Blood in the Water from ToB, allowing your monsters to get a small buff in exchange for finishing off the players.. If you use PF, there are other methods available, such as the Bandit archetypes Fearsome Strike.

This is the problem. When a PC goes down, there's no scramble to save them. They continue rolling and fighting as normal. If someone is surrounded by enemies, not one of them stops and finishes the guy off. The whole group has to move on and keep fighting. I think that's dumb. In a fight, 6 seconds to make sure this guy wont wake up tomorrow seems worth it.

On the other hand, we have on player who always dies. Like once a session. Through means that seem trivial but come back to bite them. For example, a pit trap gone horrible with a critical hit from a pit spike. The most recent time the fighter split an ooze in half. As the other player, a ninja at the time, tumbled past the oozes the new ooze in the fight critted him. It's become a bit of a joke, but his deaths are always legit. For the others not so much.

[DefKab]

Isn't that a cliche?

So what if it is? :smalltongue: Cliche's aren't bad, they're tools to be used.

[Snowbluff]

So what if it is? :smalltongue: Tropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage) aren't bad, they're tools to be used.

Fixed that for you :smallcool:

[Righteous Doggy]

So what if it is? :smalltongue: Cliche's aren't bad, they're tools to be used.

I know, but I took a flaw to go against cliche'd actions. Now i HAVE to charge the guy carrying the knife. Is it a surprise round?
6 seconds can mean alot if it means you killed 2 guy instead of double tapping btw. I don't have time to look for ants in an ocean of blood, *Tyrant taunt*.

[Reluctance]

Just play higher levels. Death will be a failed save or an inconvenient full attack away.

The catch is that then you have either cheap resurrections, or disposable PCs. There is no easy solution to the "how do I make death matter?" question.

[candycorn]

All for it... But with clarifications. It's not for every fight.

Intelligent enemies will, when:
1) The helpless state is due to a temporary status condition
2) Party has shown demonstrated mid-combat healing.

Average enemies will, when:
1) The big bruiser has little minions. Bruiser knocks them down, minions finish them off.

Nonintelligent enemies will focus on downed opponents, generally. Their motivations are over making a kill, then protecting it. If party members approach the kill, they'd be targeted, but otherwise, you can expect a quick finish, then lunch.

[Venger]

What is your opinion on using this tactic against PC's? My players are becoming a little too comfortable in surviving fights. They've always gone with "Enemies wouldn't take time to finish off downed enemies when there's others still swinging." They have a good point. But there's also been time's where they would not have survived if they enemies finished off their meal before moving on. Should doing this mid combat be on most intelligent enemy minds? I know they are attached to characters, but what's combat without any risk?

TL;DR Coup de grace mid combat on downed PC's. Opinions?

first of all, it's coo duh grahss: (coup de grâce) which means merciful blow, or literally, blow of mercy. you're saying coup de gras, which means fat blow or blow of fat. it's not that I'm a grammar nazi, just whatever a "fat blow" is (hitting someone with your beer belly after taking willing deformity obese?) it never fails to make me lol at the mental image.

as to your actual question, I'm with the masses and think that in a fight, monsters/npcs will go towards immediate threats who are still up and fighting first before using their whole rounds action (and provoking AoOs) to kill a target who no longer poses a credible threat.

in a fight with a party of 4 if you're the BBEG, would you use your move to go over to one of the PCs you downed, wait until your next turn (with the PCs attacking/moving next to you the whole time, maybe even basing you/attacking you depending on their move speed) and then spend your entire turn maybe killing one of them? heaven forbid one of your PCs is an AoO build.

do PCs behave like this? no, because it makes no sense

[Necroticplague]

Coup de gaces are relatively common in my group because we usually have some method of regeneration or fast healing, so standing back up a few round after being beaten to the negatives isn't uncommon. A coup de grace is they only way to be sure were dead and not just k.o'd. Plus, due to us knowing about such things (and more than a little bit of projection), we expect the same from our enemies, so we coup de grace them, too.

[Ashtagon]

Monsters using CDG on PCs is simply them being genre-savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy)

[Acanous]

Monsters performing a Coup is a perfectly legitimate tactic. Why was the PC: Helpless, far enough away from his party that nobody can interrupt the monster with an Attack of Opportunity (Coup is a full round action that provokes) and close enough to the enemies that one has a full-round action to take?

Seriously, if they tempt fate like that, you HAVE to apply painful tactics. It's how they learn.

[Threeshades]

If you think combat is too easy for the players, to the point that they feel safe in their characters surviving, I would just up the encounter difficulty by uing tougher enemies. It makes for much more satidfying victories for them too. It doesn't just increase their chance of dying, instead it increases the challenge.

[Water_Bear]

It comes down to how the NPCs are being roleplayed. A Coup de Grace is usually a waste of time, so a pragmatic enemy will wait until the end of a battle and then decide if they want to kill the PCs, capture them, or let them go. Enemies motivated by anger, fear, bloodlust or blind hatred are more likely to attempt it.

I generally avoid using Coup de Graces on my PCs because I like running smart coordinated enemies who would see it as wasteful. But it's a legitimate tactic, the Fighter's equivalent to a Save or Die spell. Some people like less lethal games, but I've never seen one of my PCs attempt to capture an enemy or hold back in a fight. I don't think most of my NPCs would forgo a useful option to save someone trying to kill them.

[Gurgeh]

It should be noted that in the case of PCs who are incapacitated due to being in negative hit points, a CDG is not necessary; a bloodthirsty or callous enemy could dispatch them with a casual magic missile or crossbow bolt. Roleplayed right, this might be even more devastating than a drawn-out CDG.

[Rickshaw]

I'm starting my pc's at lvl 1 and have told them from the start that it's going to be quite difficult. what I plan to do with this problem is start having people who would reasonably attempt to CDG them "attempt" to do so at early lvls (probably around level 3-4). kobolds/goblins/halfling raiders and other such small creatures armed with daggers aren't likely to do more than scare them (1d3x2 crit max damage is gonna be 6)

Just to clarify, I'm running pathfinder, which mean PCs don't die till they get below negative Con score (which means for fighters and stuff will be like 16-18ish.)

then, once it's established that I have no fear of killing their characters (which is not true of course, but they don't need to know that,) I can start setting up traps for dumb playing. I like my PCs at least a little bit cautious.

that's my current strategy at least ^^

[Mari01]

I just wanna clarify it's not the PC getting knocked out 30 feet away. It's almost always melee range or if not, the offender usually has reach or a means of attacking at that range anyway.

[Rubik]

I'd set the PCs up against a group of enemies known to be ruthless, and they KNOW the bad guys CdG their enemies before they even go against them. So that way they'll either have to be really careful to not get KO'd or if they do, they're either going to die or their teammates will have to protect them. Otherwise they'll need to pay for a few rezzes.

And they can't complain because you explicitly warned them ahead of time. It'll make the ensuing battles considerably more tense.

[Heatwizard]

This is the problem. When a PC goes down, there's no scramble to save them. They continue rolling and fighting as normal. If someone is surrounded by enemies, not one of them stops and finishes the guy off. The whole group has to move on and keep fighting. I think that's dumb. In a fight, 6 seconds to make sure this guy wont wake up tomorrow seems worth it.

Because as far as they're concerned, he's already not living to see the dawn. He got stabbed, he fell over, he's not moving. There just isn't that much of an argument for using it, other then "I am the DM, and I wish for one of the players to die". If the NPCs are winning, there's no need. If the NPCs are losing, then they will think fondly of running away.

PCs don't scramble to save their teammates mid-fight because, as has been touched on by the thread, there are still men trying to kill them. Remember that rounds take place over six seconds; fighting off your enemies in 20 seconds and then running over to attend to your buddy is still a pretty swift response.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I find it incredibly amusing how the thread keeps getting side-tracked on the proper pronunciation of Coup de Gras (damn, how I'm wishing this forum supported imported text so I could show off my linguistics savvy).

By the by, Venger got closest. I'd argue about how he pronounced 'de', but there's only so much nuance that can be translated by text, and his accent's probably different to boot.

the last time I CdG'd one of my players was when they invaded a cleric of Shar's hideout, then realised that they were completely over their heads (they weren't SUPPOSED to invade for another few levels). Suffice to say, the cleric couldn't let the abandoned character escape - so when the rest of the party teleported out (They couldn't reach him without incurring massive AoO), the cleric killed him herself.

[Zaq]

It should be noted that in the case of PCs who are incapacitated due to being in negative hit points, a CDG is not necessary; a bloodthirsty or callous enemy could dispatch them with a casual magic missile or crossbow bolt. Roleplayed right, this might be even more devastating than a drawn-out CDG.

This is a decent point. Even if a bad guy won't spend the entire round on a CdG, I often play enemies as being more than willing to make sure that downed PCs happen to be in the range of their AoE effects, for instance. Which makes sense, really.

[Philistine]

I guess this answers my question. It seems like so many times someone gets knocked into the negatives repeatedly. The recurring BBEG never seems to learn that they wont just stay dead.

Wait, I'm a little confused here. You seem to be saying that many/all fights for this party feature multiple PCs being knocked into negative HP multiple times, is that correct?

[nedz]

I find it incredibly amusing how the thread keeps getting side-tracked on the proper pronunciation of Coup de Gras (damn, how I'm wishing this forum supported imported text so I could show off my linguistics savvy).

By the by, Venger got closest. I'd argue about how he pronounced 'de', but there's only so much nuance that can be translated by text, and his accent's probably different to boot.


Well it depends which part of France you are from, err, or Canada :smallamused:
I believe that the English term is derived from Norman French ?
Cou da grah/Cou de grah
ie silent p and no c/s

Anyway, back on the rails:
I don't recall ever doing this to my players, though they do do it to monsters fairly often. The questions I ask myself are :-
Is it fun ?
Would I just be doing this to the PCs who die alot anyway ?
How would this add to character development ?

If its drama you want - just off an NPC the players care about.

[Mari01]

Wait, I'm a little confused here. You seem to be saying that many/all fights for this party feature multiple PCs being knocked into negative HP multiple times, is that correct?

Yes. The fights that are meant to be difficult never quite kill anyone. The reason being that my players get upset if minion 1467 takes the time to make sure these people who keep ruining master's plan don't get up. All but one character has been knocked into the negatives with enemies about. The party deaths that have occurred aren't because of combat. That makes no sense to me. And by scramble I mean my players say things like "Don't worry about me, I'm at -3. Got X rounds to live." When they go down a timer starts to death, not the fight gets more intense. It seems stale.

[Rubik]

Yes. The fights that are meant to be difficult never quite kill anyone. The reason being that my players get upset if minion 1467 takes the time to make sure these people who keep ruining master's plan don't get up. All but one character has been knocked into the negatives with enemies about. The party deaths that have occurred aren't because of combat. That makes no sense to me. And by scramble I mean my players say things like "Don't worry about me, I'm at -3. Got X rounds to live." When they go down a timer starts to death, not the fight gets more intense. It seems stale.Yeah, don't let them communicate how many hp they've got left unless someone uses the Heal skill or a spell, and if they DO do that make sure they don't do that anymore.

"Don't worry about me. I'm at -3; I'm fine."

*Rolls* "No, now you're at -8."

"What?"

"Metagaming kills adventurers, you know. That kobold saw that you were at -3, and he didn't like it, since you obviously were going to be fine."

[Worira]

Well it depends which part of France you are from, err, or Canada :smallamused:
I believe that the English term is derived from Norman French ?
Cou da grah/Cou de grah
ie silent p and no c/s


The "s" sound isn't silent unless you're actually trying to say coup de gras, which you shouldn't be.

[AslanCross]

I think it's a bit too ham-fisted, and likely going to be frustrating. It might be better to throw enemies that are known to devour slain enemies (barghests, etc) or reanimate/integrate their corpses (Charnel Hound, Boneyard).

Actually, what I find most effective in reminding PCs that they aren't immortal is taking off 50% or more of their HP in one hit, because they know the next hit will absolutely kill them. But yeah, playing PC mortality up too much will reach a tipping point wherein your PCs will just wear this face all the time:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m341efzah11rs88hwo2_400.jpg

and just roll a new character when they die.

[BoutsofInsanity]

I have a DM who likes to Coup De Grace with enemies, and personally I hate it, because it doesn't seem logical. I agree with whats been said before, your not going to take the time to double tap a character while there are still enemies around.

What I hate is the people who go ahead and coup de grace anyway, surrounded by PC's because they know they are going to survive the opportunity attacks, which means it doesn't matter.

However, Certain situations do warrant a Coup de grace, like circumstances above have mentioned that don't need going into.

[Myth]

It depends. How intelligent are the enemies. Is it crucial for that downed PC to become dead? How much resources did the enemies spend to get him/her down? If the whole master plan of the Kobold tribe was to knock down the enemy Wizard, and they succeed, a CDG is vital (else the Cleric raises him back up and they face a Glitterdust).

But having int 6 Orcs CDGing members right before they are brought back up, or focusing on the dangerous ones or the ones that can save the party is bad DMing.

PCs CDGing enemies is fine, especially if it's a nasty, recurring, annoying BBEG and the rest are simple mooks who can be ignored for a turn.

[Ashtagon]

...But yeah, playing PC mortality up too much will reach a tipping point wherein your PCs will just wear this face all the time:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m341efzah11rs88hwo2_400.jpg

and just roll a new character when they die.

You know he looks like he's happy... almost as if he's having... fun?

[Gavinfoxx]

ARGH I HATE THIS. YOU ALL GET THIS WRONG ALL THE FREAKING TIME!!!

HERE IS THE PRONUNCIATION IN PARISIAN FRENCH!!!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Fr-coupdegrace-fr-Paris.ogg

[Xuc Xac]

obligatory dictionary link (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Coup+de+gras)
Coo Day Graw is a rough, but appropriate guide for pronouncing it.

That's not what the link you provided says.



(For the record, I was approximating a proper French pronunciation. The ends of the words ("p", "eh" and "ss") are very soft, and English lacks proper phonemes to represent them (why, it did away with the p and the ss sound altogether and added a superfluous "y" to the end of "deh" when it appropriated the term), but I did my best to approximate it)

The final consonants in French are silent if not followed by a vowel. For example, you can't hear the "t" at the end of "comment" by itself, but you can hear it in "comment allez". Consonants that are followed by a vowel in the same word (like grâce) are also not silent. In fact, the only difference between French "grâce" and English "grace" is the "a".

If you pronounce the final /s/ sound (clearly audible in Gavinfoxx's audio file), it's the "stroke of mercy" where you deliver a killing blow to put a wounded foe out of their misery. If you don't pronounce the /s/ sound, then you're saying "coup de gras", which means slapping them with a hunk of fat.

[Myth]

ARGH I HATE THIS. YOU ALL GET THIS WRONG ALL THE FREAKING TIME!!!

HERE IS THE PRONUNCIATION IN PARISIAN FRENCH!!!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d2/Fr-coupdegrace-fr-Paris.ogg

coo 'd grass? :smalleek:

[AslanCross]

You know he looks like he's happy... almost as if he's having... fun?

It's a memetic expression of abandon, of not caring anymore, typically phrased in words I'd rather not use on a forum. At least that's what it's commonly interpreted to be.

[Bahamut Omega]

When it comes to CDG I look at a few things and none of them are more or less important than any other:

-Enemy's intelligence (anything with an 10 or less almost always doesn't bother, focusing more or less on their fight or flight reaction)
-Enemy's alignment (CE or CG are most likely to spend a turn to CDG than any other alignment in my opinion. Neither is interested in a trial or redeeming the fallen enemy, they're interested in purging)
-Enemy's status. Are they a BBEG, top henchman, or a minion (minion never do a CDG simply because I usually want PCs to get taken out by something that matters, not kobold #23)
-The alternate option (in other words, will this monster making a full attack be more likely to drop another character? If so, the character might make the CDG as an act of mercy on my behalf as the DM in the interest of not having another player knocked out of the fight)

These aren't hard and fast rules, but I do try and run the decision through a quick run down of that list before doing a CDG. I also like to use knockout CDG either from a sap or just using the weapon non-lethally. You hit automatically in melee, so the penalty is a moot point. If the PC fails the fort check, I deem them permanently unconscious until I decide they wake up, no amount of healing will fix the amount of knocked out they are. This is useful to put PCs in other sorts of scenarios.

[Slipperychicken]

coo 'd grass? :smalleek:

Well, yeah. When speaking French (or most languages for that matter), you don't go enunciating every bit of every word, or else it takes too long and/or you sound like you don't know the language. Sort of like how "you're" can be "yer", "The [Noun]" can be pronounced as "Th'[Noun]" . Similarly "Oui" in French can be "wee" or a very short "waye" or "weh". "Grace" might be "Grayss" in English, but is "Grahss" (rolling the R a bit) in French.


And yes, French does have a lot of seemingly-superfluous letters (sort of like English. I'm looking at you, knight), but which really do help get the feel of words when you "know" the language and inflections better.


EDIT: And to actually contribute to the thread, it seems like an NPC should CDG a PC when

a) The NPC needs that PC dead Right Freaking Now to accomplish its objectives.
b) "Saving" the PC (or just capturing it) would require so much obvious GM-metagaming/fudging that it would outweigh the fun-benefits of the PC's survival.

[TheDon]

While I don't have much to contribute to the actual question because everything has been said already. I just wanted to add that the Day sound is more like a Duh sound, maybe a little softer, but I think it hits closer to home. So yeah, Coo Duh Grahss sounds about right.

As for the actual purpose of the thread, I think a Coo Duh Grahss would be easily justifiable with wild animals. Attack -> Coo Duh Grahss -> Procede to eat. An animal wouldn't be necessairly concerned by the other members of the pack if it's ravenous. Heck I could even see the animals just gathering around the downed party member and just growling to protect the pack, in an attempt to scare the rest of the PCs off. Protect their food if you will.

Also, if you build a villain as a very ruthless figure, and spread rummors of how evil he is, it'll instill more of a sense of shock and drama after the first party death, especially if the PCs are so overwhelmed they are forced to run away. Then it's personal...

[Shadowknight12]

The final consonants in French are silent if not followed by a vowel. For example, you can't hear the "t" at the end of "comment" by itself, but you can hear it in "comment allez". Consonants that are followed by a vowel in the same word (like grâce) are also not silent. In fact, the only difference between French "grâce" and English "grace" is the "a".

If you pronounce the final /s/ sound (clearly audible in Gavinfoxx's audio file), it's the "stroke of mercy" where you deliver a killing blow to put a wounded foe out of their misery. If you don't pronounce the /s/ sound, then you're saying "coup de gras", which means slapping them with a hunk of fat.

Yeah, I remember that. Huh. I really let my French get rusty, I thought hard consonants (like the p) became soft and barely audible at the end of a word. Also I was told I pronounce French like a drunk Russian, so that might be behind why I thought all consonants must be pronounced.

Enlightening!

[Andorax]

I rarely utilize CDGs...my players' characters die often enough as it is. However, when I do use them, I try to telegraph ahead of time to the players that they're facing an opponent who is liable to do so. This way, they can account for and adjust their tactics accordingly.

Random soldier suddenly takes it in his head to waste a round downing a PC instead of dealing with another conscious and active threat? That rubs me the wrong way. But if I introduce a ravenous ghoul who murmurs "fresh meat...sooooo hungry" while fighting, they may just take a hint that he's going to stop for a snack, combat or no combat.

So I guess my take on it is "occasionally valid, but only with fair warning."

[Ravens_cry]

Saying it the wrong way, Coo Day Graw, means "blow of fat", which I suppose if one were been attacked by a flesh golem primarily composed of adipose tissue or a rather obese monk would indeed be the case.