Why no love for d20 Modern?

[Grinner]

As I understand it, many gamers dislike d20 Modern, and they have their reasons for doing so. What I want to know is why. With the exception a few flaws, it seems like a fairly solid system.

From what I've read, players seem to dislike it for the following reasons:


Ease of wealth system abuse - If you get a wealth bonus of +15 or more, purchasing most items becomes a triviality.
Dexterity superiority - Seeing as it grants both AC and skill with guns, this is understandable.
Ability-based classes - The system is supposed to be generic, so no, the designers aren't going to shove you into a proper character class. That said, the usage of classes seems a little restrictive for a generic system.
Diplomancy - Kills suspenseful interrogation scenes, so dislike on account of this seems entirely reasonable.
Combat centric gameplay - It's made by WoTC. What do you expect?
Lack of chase rules - Chase scenes are often grand moments within action flicks, so the lack of specific rules in d20 Modern for handling chases does seem odd.


These things, while detrimental, certainly aren't irreparable, especially in comparison to D&D 3.5's flaws. Any thoughts or suggestions?

[eggs]

There are a bunch of reasons I can't stand it.

Modern builds a very specific environment, failing as a generic system. Characters exist at wildly different capabilities, differentiated at a weird and metagamey level system (Joe is really good at science. So good that he's a level 20 Scientist. Incidentally, that means he's just outright better at everything than Frank the level 4 Baseball player, including baseball). It has the same priorities as D&D, slowing gameplay down in combat with all its nitpicky tactical rules and flippantly breezing through noncombat scenarios with a single die roll, pushing most of the gameplay time (and the focus by association) into a miniatures wargame.

And on top of that, it's very clumsy at what it does. It tries to be a generic/non-archetypal system, so classes shouldn't be necessary, but it still uses them for some reason. It clings to D&D's "No you can't try that, unless you have the feat/class ability" mentality, but in realworld contexts where that clearly doesn't model the subject matter (You can't talk someone out of a frenzy unless you're a level 9 Negotiator? and if you can, what's the point of that class?). It takes ages to make a character. The d20 engine is wildly swingy (it takes a huge modifier to either totally rule out failure or totally rule out success, even for characters who really shouldn't narratively be failing or succeeding) and intensely fiddly (tracking a half-dozen minor bonuses and penalties for each roll).

Basically, it doesn't deliver on its promises as a generic system, and what it does do, it does clumsily. I have never seen a game pitch where d20 Modern was more fitting or usable than an alternative system.

[sonofzeal]

Basically, it doesn't deliver on its promises as a generic system, and what it does do, it does clumsily. I have never seen a game pitch where d20 Modern was more fitting or usable than an alternative system.
I have - one game I was in had D&D reality bleeding through into the real world. Most of the characters were d20 modern (with a few D&D characters later on), but trying to fight/contain D&D monsters. It worked pretty well.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

D20 Modern has the same basic flaws as D&D. That said, I have played D20 Modern campaigns that were just fine. Specifically, using the D20 Future can add some options. However, it can also FURTHER break the game. However, there arent any level 20 wizards, so no matter how much people complain, it isn't as bad as straight D&D.

and yes, DEX is a god stat, because guns use DEX to hit. Guess what? In the real world, guns are lethal and badass, and the guy who shoots the best with them wins. Just like in D20 Modern.

People just need to step outside of optimization, and play a character they want to play. Otherwise yes, everyone will be a Fast Hero, Dex Based Gunslinger.

[Grinner]

There are a bunch of reasons I can't stand it.

Modern builds a very specific environment, failing as a generic system. Characters exist at wildly different capabilities, differentiated at a weird and metagamey level system (Joe is really good at science. So good that he's a level 20 Scientist. Incidentally, that means he's just outright better at everything than Frank the level 4 Baseball player, including baseball).

The same argument could be made about D&D though.


The d20 engine is wildly swingy (it takes a huge modifier to either totally rule out failure or totally rule out success, even for characters who really shouldn't narratively be failing or succeeding) and intensely fiddly (tracking a half-dozen minor bonuses and penalties for each roll).

I actually like that aspect of the d20 system, provided that the roll in question doesn't kill my character or does so dramatically. Failure or success should never be a certainty.

[Savannah]

For me, I really like the idea of d20 Modern, but every time I go to build a character...I can't make the character I want. The generic classes are a good idea, but they suck in practice.

[Bogardan_Mage]

For me, I really like the idea of d20 Modern, but every time I go to build a character...I can't make the character I want. The generic classes are a good idea, but they suck in practice.
May I ask what kind of characters you're trying to make? A lot of people think d20 Modern is "just like D&D, but in the modern world" which leaves them unprepared for the class system which, despite being built on similar principles, is really very different. The other problem is that a relatively small amount of material was made for the game, and was spread out over a number of different settings, so there's a lack of options that D&D for example doesn't have.

I'd also like to question the OP's characterisation of the wealth system's flaws. "Most items" that you'd want to purchase (or, possibly more accurately, that you'd want to bother about bookkeeping when purchasing) have Purchase DCs higher than 15. It's really just a handful of "exploitable" things that can be obtained this way.

[Grinner]

I'd also like to question the OP's characterisation of the wealth system's flaws. "Most items" that you'd want to purchase (or, possibly more accurately, that you'd want to bother about bookkeeping when purchasing) have Purchase DCs higher than 15. It's really just a handful of "exploitable" things that can be obtained this way.

Pretty much that.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Pretty much that.
I beg your pardon? That's not the same thing as "purchasing most items becomes a triviality"

[Savannah]

May I ask what kind of characters you're trying to make?

....modern day people who would work in an adventure? :smallconfused: I've tried to make a lot of characters (both PCs and NPCs) across a wide range of campaigns (horror to sci-fi), so I kinda need a more specific question.

[Bogardan_Mage]

....modern day people who would work in an adventure? :smallconfused: I've tried to make a lot of characters (both PCs and NPCs) across a wide range of campaigns (horror to sci-fi), so I kinda need a more specific question.
I'm basically asking for a specific example. I'm just curious because it's not a problem I've ever come across when making d20 Modern builds. Can you give an example of a character you wanted to build, how you tried to build it, and why that wasn't what you wanted?

[Grinner]

I beg your pardon? That's not the same thing as "purchasing most items becomes a triviality"

It is when the net effect is the same.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

The problem with d20 modern is that it's based on 3rd edition D&D, meaning that it has many of D&D's sacred cows like classes, levels, hp (ie fight till you drop with no penalty) all of these things we tolerate from D&D because it's the grandaddy of all RPG's and because of the world it presents full of impossible fantasy heroes. All of these things very much take away from a modern setting. The only modern setting I think could really work would be a game emulating action movies with lots of snappy one-liners and jumping through plate glass windows.

Along with the high level characters are good at everything (compared to low level characters) is the limitations imposed by the feat system killing the rule of cool which I often want to dominate a modern game, I just realized this blows out my action movie setting idea. Maybe action points letting you enact rule of cool would improve the base system.

There are just sooooo many systems to choose that I would prefer for playing in a non sword and sorcery world.

Deadlands-Probably the best fluff ever (both origional and the Postapoc setting Hell on Earth) with a very fun system that compliments the setting and encourages the desired tabletop atmosphere.

White Wolf- Doesn't matter if you like the base world or not the system is very easy to learn and makes a good generic system. Attributes and skills can be matched up on the fly for easy improvising.

Gurps- It's a generic base with an expansion for everything you could ever want. It's skill system makes it very easy to be good at a large number of related things or ok at lots of unrelated things things, but not to be very good at several unrelated things feels right.

Champions- alot like Gurps though it has one very interesting mechanic where you have to buy gear your character regularly uses with character points. Like to by a gun you'd start with a RKA(ranged killing attack) and get a base cost from the damage you want it to do, then give it the limited used flaw representing a clip ( this could be positive or negative modifier based on the size of the clip and how difficult it is to reload) then reduce the cost because the power depends on a obvious accessable focus meaning people can see that you're shooting a gun and a disarm check will remove the gun from your hand causing you to temporarily lose the power. Characters take forever to make, but they can truly be works of art and reflect characters in a very satisfactory way.

Palladium- Very poorly edited books that require a lot playing fast and loose with the rules. Also Physical Prowess (the dex equivelent) is incredibly OP and characters that roll high in it are just better. Honestly, it's heavily inspired by D&D, and has a number of it's sacred cows, but it's flaws can be strenghs (sorta) for an experienced GM. Really most of what needs to be done to d20 modern needs to be done to Palladium, but at least Palladium has lots of cool fluff for multiple settings.

[willpell]

As a long-time White Wolf fan I've often debated trying to bridge the gap with D20 Modern, enabling my fondness for the 3.5 milieu (with its clunky and nitpicky mechanics) and the White Wolf setting (with its vague and schizophrenic mechanics) to cross over. Whether it would actually work I dunno, but I've been tempted to try.

[Savannah]

I'm basically asking for a specific example. I'm just curious because it's not a problem I've ever come across when making d20 Modern builds. Can you give an example of a character you wanted to build, how you tried to build it, and why that wasn't what you wanted?

It's been ages since I tried, so I don't remember the exact details on any one character, sorry.