[PF] Paladins of Asmodeus?

[deuxhero]

I can find a few references to this happening and being retconed, but my Google fu only brings up the same kind mentions on how it got retconned and never happened, but never details exactly what source that was that got retconed or what happened in it.

[Feralventas]

Is there a question in your post?

I can see Paladins of Asmodeus workin in 4th edition because of the alignment changes. According to 3.5, Clerics cannot be more than one step away from their patron deity. Under simple PhB rules, however, a Paladin is only Required to be Lawful Good; they can worship Bacob or even Lolth as long as they maintain their own alignment as Lawful Good.

The problem comes into line when you take the Books of Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds into account and see that Worshiping Evil or Good Deities is taken as an evil or good act respectively. This isn't to say that a Paladin can never commit an act of Evil, so long as they are willing to accept a lack of their powers until they can atone for it, but it does make it difficult to function as such. More so, the constant demand to act in evil ways that usually comes with evil-aligned patrons is somewhat troublesome.

Asmodeus, IIRC, was one of the original celestials that fel in the creation of the Inferno, and so might still exemplify the aspects of punishing the wicked for their transgressions, but the Paladin would need to add themes of Mercy and Compassion to their Rightous Fury to maintain the Lawful Good Alignment.

g2g4now, but can elaborate later. Look forward to see other stuff on the subject.

[Jeraa]

The problem comes into line when you take the Books of Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds into account and see that Worshiping Evil or Good Deities is taken as an evil or good act respectively.

This isn't a 3.0/3.5 question. Its for Pathfinder, so it doesn't matter what the Book of Vile Darkness or Book of Exalted Deeds say. They aren't Pathfinder books.

I believe that the Council of Thieves adventure path mentioned something about a paladin of Asmodeus.

Edit: It was Council of Thieves.


Asmodeus is lawful evil and his portfolio is tyranny, slavery, pride, and contracts. His domains are Evil, Fire, Law, Magic, and Trickery. His favored weapon is the mace and his symbol is an inverted pentagram, though some cults use a pentacle rather than a pentagram. Asmodeus’s extremely hierarchical priesthood includes clerics, sorcerers (especially those with the infernal bloodline), wizards (particularly conjurers), thaumaturges, diabolists (see Pathfinder Chronicles: Book of the Damned Vol. 1, Princes of Darkness), and blackguards, with their individual roles depending on their particular skills and abilities. A handful of druids worship him as a primordial fire deity, and an even smaller number of paladins serve him as paragons of law (see page 65). He of course has bards, monks, and other classes in his service as well, though generally not as part of his priesthood.

And a bit later:


Paladins also have a strange relationship with the Archfiend. Though the idea of a lawful good paladin serving a lawful evil deity seems ridiculous, it can happen. Asmodeus is primarily a deity of law, with evil being incidental to his concept of law. Very rarely, Asmodeus allows a true paladin to serve him, using him as a tool in lands where a more traditional priest would be hunted.

The paladin’s duties are always very carefully explained and restricted to avoid conflicts that result in evil thoughts or actions; in effect, the paladin is a champion of contracts and law, who happens to be good. This is possible for three reasons: One, Asmodeus can have clerics who are lawful neutral rather than lawful evil; these clerics walk a fine line that avoids outright evil while still promoting order, and therefore in theory a paladin can do the same. Two, the nature of evil does not require one to always be evil; an evil person who doesn’t rob, murder, or torture at every opportunity is not at risk of becoming less evil—in fact, an evil person can perform good acts every day, making it entirely possible (though exceedingly rare) for a servant of Asmodeus to be good, having never done an evil act. Three, the deceptions of Asmodeus are subtle and deft, and it’s potentially possible for a paladin to believe his efforts and the orderly god’s will serve a greater good, though ultimately he serves nothing more than the god of tyranny’s cruel agendas.

Such paladins sometimes see themselves as reformers of their church, trying to convince others that it is possible to serve the ultimate law and still be a good person. Religious scholars speculate that these paladins are actually granted powers by another deity (typically Iomedae or Sarenrae) through some complex arrangement with the Prince of Darkness. However, it is possible that having a good paladin in his service benefits his plans in the long run, and that these enigmatic individuals really are serving Asmodeus. Their path is much more difficult than other paladins, and only those lucky enough to die young avoid falling from grace—though what fate their souls face in the afterlife remains a matter of great theological debate.

[deuxhero]

Thanks! That's what I was looking for.

[grarrrg]

Outside of Flavor justifications, there are some PrC's that may suit your needs.

Hellknight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight) is basically a pure Anti-Chaos Paladin.

Justicar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/justiciar) is obsessed with upholding Law.

Low Templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/low-templar) gets bonuses when fighting Chaotic Evil outsiders.

[hamishspence]

This bit-


"the nature of evil does not require one to always be evil; an evil person who doesn’t rob, murder, or torture at every opportunity is not at risk of becoming less evil—in fact, an evil person can perform good acts every day"

is something that's worth remembering in the context of debates as to what an evil character can be like.

"doing good acts every day" poses no threat to an evil character's evil alignment.

[Benly]

Worth mentioning about Hellknights: it's been confirmed by the designers that paladins are able to join the Hellknights even though they have LE members and the Asmodean church has significant influence on some of the orders. (I wouldn't try to have an Order Of The Gate paladin, but the Nail and Scourge seem viable and the God Claw would be an interesting option.)

It's also worth noting that Iomedae, who is more or less the default paladin patron the way Hieroneus was for 3E paladins, has a uneasy alliance with Asmodeus. Asmodeus's role in the cosmology is overall one of the more interesting parts of Pathfinder's worldbuilding in my opinion.

[hamishspence]

Worth mentioning about Hellknights: it's been confirmed by the designers that paladins are able to join the Hellknights even though they have LE members and the Asmodean church has significant influence on some of the orders.

Since Pathfinder's dropped the "Don't associate with evil characters" rule, this isn't surprising.

[Jeraa]

Since Pathfinder's dropped the "Don't associate with evil characters" rule, this isn't surprising.

Not quite.


Associates: While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil.A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

The only times a paladin can associate with evil characters is to defeat an even greater evil. But those are exceptional situations. Usually, a paladin can't associate with evil characters.

So it went from "Never associate with evil" to "Only associate with evil in exceptional circumstances, and even then its still something temporary and something to atone for."

[Benly]

I suspect this is one of the situations where the Pathfinder devs aren't actually entirely clear on what they did and didn't put in the rules.

[hamishspence]

In Dragon 358 (Paladin Guide) with charts, rules clarifications, etc, it was "May associate with an evil creature on a limited basis for purposes of redeeming that creature"

Defenders of the Faith (splatbook from 3.0 era) discusses temporary alliances with evil creatures vs much greater evil, and said "possible but extremely risky" with the paladin being expected to weigh up risk of personal corruption vs the greater good, and the possibility of redeeming the evildoer.

When it comes to "membership in an organisation that accepts evil characters" it's actually quite common in D&D fiction. And Tome of Magic has a outpost of an organisation- the binder-hating Order of Seropaenes- that is guarded by aasimar paladins- but there's assassins at the outpost as well, and the garrison commander is a blackguard.

So it may be that 3.5 has a very narrow definition of "associate" that excludes a lot of things that might be expected to fit by the dictionary definition.

[deuxhero]

Outside of Flavor justifications, there are some PrC's that may suit your needs.

Hellknight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight) is basically a pure Anti-Chaos Paladin.

Justicar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/justiciar) is obsessed with upholding Law.

Low Templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/i-m/low-templar) gets bonuses when fighting Chaotic Evil outsiders.

It's not for any character, I'm just trying to figure out what happened because I could only find stuff about Paladins of Asmodeus being retconed, but never what or where they were from that needed to be retconed.

[Particle_Man]

One idea I had was a paladin from long ago, before Asmodeus fell, somehow brought into modern times (petrification + long time + stone to flesh?).

[Steward]

That sounds pretty good. In Fiendish Codex 2, Asmodeus's original role was as some kind of angelic robo-cop, a hard charger who did the things that the gods of law thought were necessary but were too squeamish to do on their own. I could see a Paladin or even a Paladin/Gray Guard character working for him in the past as a human agent.

Outside of a scenario like that, I'm not sure if traditional Lawful Good paladins would find Asmodeus all that attractive. If you wanted to, you could do some mental contortions to explain why a Lawful Good person would be able to work directly for the literal embodiment of oppression and corruption, but it would be harder to explain why they would want to in the first place.

I'm not sure if that line was a misprint or a variant rule or some kind of outdated concept that they ended up not using in the rest of the game.

[Ravens_cry]

I used the Holy Warrior Cleric variant from the old campaign setting book for a Paladin of Asmodeus. He worshipped the lawful side of Asmodeus, the harsh, steel justice.

[Particle_Man]

Another idea - the Paladin who thinks it is her duty to redeem Asmodeus and bring the God back to the fold of the "good guys"?

[Ravens_cry]

Another idea - the Paladin who thinks it is her duty to redeem Asmodeus and bring the God back to the fold of the "good guys"?
Was he ever? Did Asmodeus ever actually fall? From what I know of Golarion, he's always been a scheming magnificent bastard.

[Benly]

Was he ever? Did Asmodeus ever actually fall? From what I know of Golarion, he's always been a scheming magnificent bastard.

Asmodeus is as far as I know as much a respected member of the Golarion pantheon as any of the others. He has explicit alliances with Abadar and Iomedae, and even though Sarenrae distrusts him they did double-team Rovagug together. Not everyone likes him, but he's not an outcast or anything.

I think there's a strong habit in modern readers to try to superimpose a Manichean black-and-white oppositional mentality onto mythological figures, but Asmodeus fits more into an older mythological model where sinister figures weren't necessarily part of some eternally clashing opposed faction to the better-liked gods. Not all the other gods like him very much, but he's part of the group regardless.

[Ravens_cry]

Eh, he's still evil, very much so, but it's Lawful Evil, so it is easier for it to co-exist with other deities and in civilized parts of the world compared to Chaotic Evil deities, somewhat like Hextor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hextor).

[Benly]

Eh, he's still evil, very much so, but it's Lawful Evil, so it is easier for it to co-exist with other deities and in civilized parts of the world compared to Chaotic Evil deities, somewhat like Hextor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hextor).

He's evil, yes, but that doesn't make him The Enemy in the way that an oppositional view of mythology demands. The portrayal of Hextor tends to buy into that notion, putting him as an eternal enemy of Hieroneous.

Asmodeus is part of the "family". He's evil, but he's not an enemy, and as far as I know, he generally sides with the rest of his pantheon against outside threats. He has disagreements and rivalries that may break out into conflicts between mortal followers - but then, so do Erastil and Abadar, or Irori and Cayden Cailean. It's not a cosmic opposition, just squabbles within the group.