Pathfinder - Undead Master

[Alcopop]

I'm trying to optimize a pathfinder only cleric necromancer and it struck me while reading a variety of threads that many people figured that the feat Undead Master allowed you to control as well as create at 4 levels higher.

Is this just wishful thinking? or actually how it works?

Undead Master
You can marshal vast armies of the undead to serve you.

Prerequisites: Spell focus (necromancy), the ability to cast animate dead or command undead.

Benefit: When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice you animate. When you cast command undead, your duration is doubled.

Animate Dead
This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.

The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.

Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit.

As well, are there any known caster level boosts I could use to help me get the most out of animate dead? So far I have the strands of prayer beads (karma) item and the gifted adept trait. Any others?

[grarrrg]

I'm trying to optimize a pathfinder only cleric necromancer and it struck me while reading a variety of threads that many people figured that the feat Undead Master allowed you to control as well as create at 4 levels higher.

Is this just wishful thinking? or actually how it works?

Where is the confusion?

When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice you animate. When you cast command undead, your duration is doubled.

If you cast Animate Dead, you are considered 4 levels higher, which means 16 extra HD of minions.
When you use Command Undead, the duration doubles to 2min./caster level, and you can command 4 extra HD of minions. This is the only place where there might be confusion, because Command Undead (channeling) works similar to Control Undead (spell), with the exception that Command only works for "minion HD = level", and Control is "minion HD = 2x level".
With Undead Master you still only get +4 HD with Command Undead.


As well, are there any known caster level boosts I could use to help me get the most out of animate dead? So far I have the strands of prayer beads (karma) item and the gifted adept trait. Any others?

As for level boosts, you need Agent of the Grave (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/agent-of-the-grave) levels.
It's a 4/5 casting PrC, but EVERY level counts DOUBLE for maximum Undead Controlled.

[merashin]

Where is the confusion?


If you cast Animate Dead, you are considered 4 levels higher, which means 16 extra HD of minions.
When you use Command Undead, the duration doubles to 2min./caster level, and you can command 4 extra HD of minions. This is the only place where there might be confusion, because Command Undead (channeling) works similar to Control Undead (spell), with the exception that Command only works for "minion HD = level", and Control is "minion HD = 2x level".
With Undead Master you still only get +4 HD with Command Undead.

Here is where the confusion is

Benefit: When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice you animate. When you cast command undead, your duration is doubled.

What it says is that when you cast animate dead you Animate as though you were 4 levels higher, which means that your 2hd/lvl cap on how many you can Animate with any one casting goes up by 4 levels, and the wording makes it so it does nothing for the Command Undead feat. The second line is very clearly referring to the Command Undead spell rather than the feat, which means that 1 day/level duration is doubled for the spell. I find the second part nice, but I think overall it's not strong enough to be worth a feat. In a personal opinion I've always read the Command Undead feat as being a permanent effect as rebuking was in 3.5.

[grarrrg]

Here is where the confusion is


Benefit: When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice you animate. When you cast command undead, your duration is doubled.

Ok, I see what you're getting at now.
I'm going to chalk this one up to "extremely poor wording", mainly due to the fact that you do not "cast" command undead, you "use" or "channel" it.

The level bonus should apply to both. This is how I read it (emphasis added for, hopefully, clarity)

When you cast animate dead or use the Command Undead feat, you are considered to be four levels higher when determining the number of Hit Dice.

The key piece of info being "or". If the "+4 level" was intended only to work with Animate Undead, then they wouldn't have mentioned Command Undead in the same sentence.

Then there is a separate effect of

When you use Channel Energy to Command Undead, the duration is doubled.

[Ravens_cry]

As for level boosts, you need Agent of the Grave (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/agent-of-the-grave) levels.
It's a 4/5 casting PrC, but EVERY level counts DOUBLE for maximum Undead Controlled.
It looks a little MAD, you need good wisdom, charisma AND intelligence if you are going cleric for this, but that does look like fun. I especially like that you can potentially use mind-affecting spells on undead, that's always fun.

[grarrrg]

It looks a little MAD, you need good wisdom, charisma AND intelligence if you are going cleric for this, but that does look like fun. I especially like that you can potentially use mind-affecting spells on undead, that's always fun.

I agree it is MAD, but I'm actually going to give Paizo full credit on a job well done this time.
They wanted to make an "Undead-Lord" PrC that could appeal to all (full) casters.
None of the INT/CHA abilities are OMG!!AWESOMES!!, so having middling scores isn't a problem.

Cleric has the earliest entry, they can cast Animate Dead right away at level 5, PrC at 6. Cleric's are also expected to has semi-decent CHA for Channeling purposes.

Oracle has next entry at level 7, CHA based.

Then Wizard/Witch at level 8, INT based.

Finally Sorcerer at level 9, CHA based.


Sorcerer is the only one that really gets 'penalized', as the other CHA caster got in 2 levels ago.

And if you REALLY want to surprise the bejeezus out of your DM, Blight Druid (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/archetypes/paizo---druid-archetypes/blight-druid) w/Death Domain also qualifies at 5...yeah.

[merashin]

Ok, I see what you're getting at now.
I'm going to chalk this one up to "extremely poor wording", mainly due to the fact that you do not "cast" command undead, you "use" or "channel" it.

The level bonus should apply to both. This is how I read it (emphasis added for, hopefully, clarity)

The key piece of info being "or". If the "+4 level" was intended only to work with Animate Undead, then they wouldn't have mentioned Command Undead in the same sentence.
While I agree on intent I was merely pointing out the actual wording.

Then there is a separate effect of
When you use Channel Energy to Command Undead, the duration is doubled.
This is the only place I actually disagree with you. I believe this part is trying to apply to the spell Command Undead and not the feat (they really should have chosen different names).

[Ravens_cry]

@grarrrg:
The ability to add other spells, even ones you can't cast yet, to your spell list sure looks nice.
A wizard will be able to add many cleric spells that otherwise prevent them from effective undead wrangling as well as potentially some self-healing.

[grarrrg]

I believe this part is trying to apply to the spell Command Undead and not the feat (they really should have chosen different names).

:smallmad:
Didn't quite realize there WAS a SPELL called "Command Undead".
The FEAT Command Undead references the spell CONTROL Undead.

Wow...just...wow...

[merashin]

:smallmad:
Didn't quite realize there WAS a SPELL called "Command Undead".
The FEAT Command Undead references the spell CONTROL Undead.

Wow...just...wow...

Yes, it hurts my brain too.

[grarrrg]

OOOooOOO, was reading through the Oracle Archetypes (for funsies/ideas), and come across the Juju Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/juju).
Of particular note are 2 Revelations.

Spirit Vessels:

...Necromancy spells that create undead lose the evil descriptor when you cast them.... When using the animate dead spell, you can control 6 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level rather than 4 HD. In addition, any zombies or juju zombies you create using animate dead, create undead, or similar spells possess maximum hit points.

So you can be a "good" Necromancer.

The other Revelation, Undead Servitude, is more straight forward:

You gain Command Undead as a bonus feat. You can channel negative energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier, but only to use Command Undead.

[Benly]

OOOooOOO, was reading through the Oracle Archetypes (for funsies/ideas), and come across the Juju Mystery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/juju).

Juju mystery oracle is probably the best minion-necromancer option that Paizo has released in terms of base classes. A couple of the revelations are real clunkers (Craft Juju Fetish and Juju Sight are terrible, and Dream Haunter and Beast Tongue are kind of underwhelming) but Spirit Vessels is amazing, Natural Divination and Undead Servitude are great, and False Death and Path of the Snake are both pretty decent.

The intelligent-undead alignment clause of it is kind of weird. On the one hand, one of the big drawbacks of Create Undead has always been that it creates evil jerks who want nothing more than to rip your face off. Good or neutral juju zombies are much less likely to turn on good or neutral creators than evil minions in the same situation. On the other hand, it raises weird moral questions about using Control Undead on them. (Is it an evil act to compel a good-aligned undead creature into service? See what your GM thinks of this question first.)

One last thing worth noting is that the designers have issued a weird little non-errata that amounts to "we don't like non-evil undead and regret giving you that option, but we're not going to change it." So, uh... take that as you will, I guess.

[grarrrg]

On the other hand, it raises weird moral questions about using Control Undead on them. (Is it an evil act to compel a good-aligned undead creature into service?

Spirit Vessels: "You can channel wendo spirits into lifeless bodies, reanimating them to aid you."

So whatever a "wendo spirit" is, is why the undead can be good/neutral, as you aren't just pumping Negative Energy into a corpse, you're giving it a semblance of life.

[Benly]

Spirit Vessels: "You can channel wendo spirits into lifeless bodies, reanimating them to aid you."

So whatever a "wendo spirit" is, is why the undead can be good/neutral, as you aren't just pumping Negative Energy into a corpse, you're giving it a semblance of life.

Right, the question is "is it then an evil act to enslave the good-aligned creature you just created using Command Undead".

Not because of inherent evilness of undead, the wendo gets you around that, but because of the problems involved in enslaving a good-aligned creature to your will.

[grarrrg]

Right, the question is "is it then an evil act to enslave the good-aligned creature you just created using Command Undead".

Not because of inherent evilness of undead, the wendo gets you around that, but because of the problems involved in enslaving a good-aligned creature to your will.

The Wendos Volunteered?

[Benly]

The Wendos Volunteered?

If your GM rules that way, then you're all good - like I said, you need to find out what your GM thinks of the question.

The issue is that while it's clear that the wendo are okay with being made into good-aligned intelligent undead, it's not clear that those good-aligned intelligent undead are going to be okay with you using Command Undead to force them to your will, so it's something that needs to be sorted out with a GM in advance if you plan to go with a Juju oracle. On the up side, you'll almost certainly have an easier time convincing a LN or NG undead to help you with your problems without resorting to Command Undead than you would with the usual rampaging evil sort.

(There are also certain conceptual problems with good-aligned versions of certain kinds of undead - a good-aligned ghoul or allip is at best going to be a miserable creature, for example. Fortunately, juju zombies are pretty much your best and most obvious option for intelligent undead anyway and they don't have that problem.)

[Crasical]

If I'm remembering correctly, Juju mystery and Wendo are supposed to be Golarion voodoo analogues, right? I would guess that Spirit Vessels is supposed to be the 'revelation' of your oracle realizing they don't need to use negative energy to create undead, you can prepare a corpse so that Wendo spirits can use it as a puppet. That would probably be why intelligent undead are of your alignment: The spirits are ones you where already associating with before putting them in the corpse or skeleton. So it shouldn't ever be a problem coercing one of your created undead to deal with you, they probably knew what they where signing up for.

Then again, wikipedia is telling me that the Ghede Loa, the spirits of the dead that are analogous to what a Juju oracle would be using to fill the spirit vessels, are usually loud, rude, and sexual. They also apparently like showing off that they're already dead, and thus beyond consequences, so do things like eating glass, raw chillis, or anointing their sensitive areas with chilli rum. So maybe leave your Juju zombies outside when you need to be diplomatic?