Help with a dagger thrower build

[Invader]

I've been working on dagger thrower build and I'm trying to get the most out of it in the simplest way possible. I definitely want to stay away from warblade and bloodstorm blade which is why they're not included in the build. Basically I want to know if I missed any good feats or anything along the way.

Strong Heart Halfling Lvl 7 -- Fighter 2, Rogue 2, Swashbuckler 1, Whisperknife 1, Master Thrower 1
Feats

Str 10
Dex 21
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 13
Cha 11

Feats:
1st Point Blank Shot, Two Weapon fighting, Far Shot
2nd Precise Sot
3rd Weapon Focus Dagger
4th Evasion
5th Weapon Finesse
6th Dead Eye
7th Quick Draw

BAB Attacks per round 10/10/10/10/10/10/5/5
1st +1 Mainhand
2nd +2 Palm Throw
3rd +2 Rapid Shot
4th +3 Rapid Shot Palm Throw
5th +4 Off Hand
6th +5 Off Hand Palm Throw
7th +6/+1


Equipment Throwing dagger (small) 1d3+5 range 40ft. crit x2 Type S/P
Gauntlet of Infinite Blades 6,500 gp.

Is there any other equipment worth taking with the remaining 2,500 gp I have? (the extra 1000gp over standard is his rule).

Cheers!
Invaderk2

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I would choose TWF over rapid shot: both can only be used on a full attack action, and TWF has applications in melee. Basically, rapid shot is a spare feat you dont need right away. Its okay either way though.

I had a friend who ran a Master Thrower, and though it looked good on paper, he rapidly ran into problems of dealing enough damage when it wasn't a surprise round, or when he didnt have imp. Invisibility, Blink, or some other method at his disposal.

It looks like you have all the right feats as far as I remember.

EDIT: I would invest in more strength (to mitigate low damage) and either a ring of blinking, or some other item to allow sneak attacks.

[Invader]

I have two weapon fighting at 1st level and the dead eye feat at 6th allows me to add my dex bonus to damage with thrown weapons instead of str which is why I dumped str.

I've seen a lot of people that ave said that damage tends to be lacking with a dagger thrower build and the DM will allow me to ad weapon enchants to the Gauntlet of Infinite blades which should help mitigate the lack of melee damage as I'm able to afford it.

Whats the most effective way to get the most of sneak attacks. I usually tend to play casters so I'm pretty lacking on the martial skills.

Thanks!

[prufock]

Is your DM allowing Quick Draw to work with the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades? As written, I don't think these go together, since the Gauntlet requires a swift action to activate. As you're getting 8 attacks per round, maximum, that wouldn't really help you too much (though the charged ability is still nice), and you'll need lots of daggers.

Looks to me like you're missing two attacks.
BAB +6/+1
+1 attack for TWF (highest base, -2, +4/+4/-1)
+1 attack for Rapid Shot (highest base, -2, +2/+2/+2/-3)
Doubled for Palm Throw (+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/-3/-3)

Your attack bonuses should be +10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5, including dex (+5), halfling bonus (+1), size bonus (+1), and weapon focus (+1), with an extra +1 (not included) within 30 feet for PBS.

Is your DM allowing Palm Shot and Dead Eye to work together?

[Gwendol]

The craven feat is good to up the damage of SA. another is the penetrating strike ACF which gives half SA damage against creatures normally immune. Eventually you could go swashbuckler and stack levels with rogue using the daring outlaw feat.

[Salanmander]

Yeah, it is the getting sneak attacks that's the hard part. Depending on how much you value rogue traits aside from sneak attack, you might consider switching for CA ninja. The one-round invisibility is a fairly reliable way to get sneak attacks.

Other than that, ask your DM what their opinion is on full-attacking from a hidden location. Some will rule that all get sneak attack, some will rule that only the first does. (There may be a correct RAW, but I remember trying to figure it out and being unsure.)

Another good place to look are spells your buddies might help you with, or that you can UMD. The most common is grease: needing to make a balance check causes you to lose dex to AC unless you have 5+ ranks, so a great many things will be sneak-attack-ready if they're standing on grease. As mentioned, blink and improved invisibility will also work wonders when cast on you.

Do remember that you can only sneak attack if your opponent has no concealment, so fog-based methods of striking as an invisible attacker are often thwarted.

[Invader]

The craven feat is good to up the damage of SA. another is the penetrating strike ACF which gives half SA damage against creatures normally immune. Eventually you could go swashbuckler and stack levels with rogue using the daring outlaw feat.

I actually had Craven at 6th and changed it dead eye instead since the damage gets added to every attack as opposed to just sneak attacks. I was planing on picking it back up a little later on.

I was figuring on finishing out with either rogue or swashbuckler levels after I finished Master Thrower, just wasn't sure yet.

[Invader]

Is your DM allowing Quick Draw to work with the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades? As written, I don't think these go together, since the Gauntlet requires a swift action to activate. As you're getting 8 attacks per round, maximum, that wouldn't really help you too much (though the charged ability is still nice), and you'll need lots of daggers.

Looks to me like you're missing two attacks.
BAB +6/+1
+1 attack for TWF (highest base, -2, +4/+4/-1)
+1 attack for Rapid Shot (highest base, -2, +2/+2/+2/-3)
Doubled for Palm Throw (+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/+2/-3/-3)

Your attack bonuses should be +10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5, including dex (+5), halfling bonus (+1), size bonus (+1), and weapon focus (+1), with an extra +1 (not included) within 30 feet for PBS.


Is your DM allowing Palm Shot and Dead Eye to work together?

I'm not sure about the gauntlet or palm shot and dead eye yet but I'll find out. At the lease I'd imagine he'll allow the gauntlet to work.

I thought I was figuring the attack in for rapid shot but I was definitely not counting the attack for TWF I was just figuring in the 2 point adjustment for the rapid shot. Now I'm not sure if I like more attacks at a lower BAB or the opposite lol.

[Averis Vol]

if your not totally opposed to it, theres always the whisper knife. you get something called ranged flank that works exactly like it sounds and at level one they get rapid shot for free. only thing is you have to take 9 levels to get the ranged flank =/ so thats my two cents.

(note, they get a lot more stuff then what i mentioned)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Wait, a throwing halfling build with no mention of Whisperknife?

Come on, guys.

[Averis Vol]

Wait, a throwing halfling build with no mention of Whisperknife?

Come on, guys.

i know right?

[Invader]

Yeah, it is the getting sneak attacks that's the hard part. Depending on how much you value rogue traits aside from sneak attack, you might consider switching for CA ninja. The one-round invisibility is a fairly reliable way to get sneak attacks.

Other than that, ask your DM what their opinion is on full-attacking from a hidden location. Some will rule that all get sneak attack, some will rule that only the first does. (There may be a correct RAW, but I remember trying to figure it out and being unsure.)

Another good place to look are spells your buddies might help you with, or that you can UMD. The most common is grease: needing to make a balance check causes you to lose dex to AC unless you have 5+ ranks, so a great many things will be sneak-attack-ready if they're standing on grease. As mentioned, blink and improved invisibility will also work wonders when cast on you.

Do remember that you can only sneak attack if your opponent has no concealment, so fog-based methods of striking as an invisible attacker are often thwarted.

Until I could afford a Ring of Blinking which would be well over 10th-1th lvl and not relying on a spell caster in the group it seems like wands of grease an invisibility would be the most efficient way of taking care of sneak attack by myself.

I would imagine between both of those and natural flanking opportunities I should be fairly well covered. I should mention that we play in a group of 7-8 PC's which ups the odds that I'll be able to flank a given enemy.

Something I'm not sure about. If an npc is fighting someone and has his back to me to I have to me in melee range to make a sneak attack or is he considered flanked if I make an attack from range?

EDIT* I think you guys above just answered my question with the WK PrC and ranged flank mentioned above.

[Salanmander]

Until I could afford a Ring of Blinking which would be well over 10th-1th lvl and not relying on a spell caster in the group it seems like wands of grease an invisibility would be the most efficient way of taking care of sneak attack by myself.


Note that it would need to be /improved/ invisibility, because invisibility ends as soon as you make an attack.

[Invader]

if your not totally opposed to it, theres always the whisper knife. you get something called ranged flank that works exactly like it sounds and at level one they get rapid shot for free. only thing is you have to take 9 levels to get the ranged flank =/ so thats my two cents.

(note, they get a lot more stuff then what i mentioned)

It looks like this class does a bunch of things right but now where's the best place to start taking levels in it. Ideally I would drop rapid shot and take weapon finesse for the prereq but it would still be after a level in master thrower so I get quick draw for free.

Thoughts?

[Invader]

Note that it would need to be /improved/ invisibility, because invisibility ends as soon as you make an attack.

Right but a wand of Imp Invis is nearly as expensive as a ring of blinking. I figured a reg wand of invis would be enough at low levels to help supplement sneak attack opportunities. And If I can convince my DM to give all my attacks SA damage for that round so much the better lol.

[Averis Vol]

It looks like this class does a bunch of things right but now where's the best place to start taking levels in it. Ideally I would drop rapid shot and take weapon finesse for the prereq but it would still be after a level in master thrower so I get quick draw for free.

Thoughts?

i'de say as soon as you qualify, as you have to get 9 levels in to get the best benefit. that being said how many levels of master thrower do you intend to take?

[Invader]

i'de say as soon as you qualify, as you have to get 9 levels in to get the best benefit. that being said how many levels of master thrower do you intend to take?

The general consensus is you need all 5 so you can take weak shot for the ranged touch and then ranged power attack to convert all you BAB over to damage since it'll be so easy to hit.

[Averis Vol]

The general consensus is you need all 5 so you can take weak shot for the ranged touch and then ranged power attack to convert all you BAB over to damage since it'll be so easy to hit.

i just scanned through master thrower and i didn't see the ranged power attack, which ability gives that?

[Invader]

i just scanned through master thrower and i didn't see the ranged power attack, which ability gives that?

Hmm.. I thought I had seen a feat somewhere that allowed this but I can't seem to find it now. If it doesn't exist or its to prohibitive to get into it might not be worth taking 5 in MT although even without the extra damage using a ranged attack for all your dagger tosses is really really nice.

[tyckspoon]

i just scanned through master thrower and i didn't see the ranged power attack, which ability gives that?

It.. doesn't. There's a feat that allows it in Complete Adventurer, but it'd pretty much require changing out the focus of your build; the feat is Power Throw, requiring Brutal Throw (use Str instead of Dex as your attack modifier with thrown weapons) and Power Attack. They're all Fighter Bonus Feats, for what it's worth, and that + Weak Spot can put out a respectable amount of damage, but it's kind of awkward to do with a Dex-based stat line.

[Averis Vol]

Hmm.. I thought I had seen a feat somewhere that allowed this but I can't seem to find it now. If it doesn't exist or its to prohibitive to get into it might not be worth taking 5 in MT although even without the extra damage using a ranged attack for all your dagger tosses is really really nice.

theres a feat in PF that grants ranged power attack, its one of the few things PF did right.

i'd personally suggest only 1 level for the palm throw, the other abilities are kinda lack luster and you can only get weak spot if you take all 5 levels. which wouldn't be so bad but you can get to an enemies touch through items or you could just get them flatfooted, both are easier then eating up 4 extra levels.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It looks like this class does a bunch of things right but now where's the best place to start taking levels in it. Ideally I would drop rapid shot and take weapon finesse for the prereq but it would still be after a level in master thrower so I get quick draw for free.

Thoughts?

You could drop the 4th rogue level and take 1 level of Swashbuckler for Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

[Invader]

theres a feat in PF that grants ranged power attack, its one of the few things PF did right.

i'd personally suggest only 1 level for the palm throw, the other abilities are kinda lack luster and you can only get weak spot if you take all 5 levels. which wouldn't be so bad but you can get to an enemies touch through items or you could just get them flatfooted, both are easier then eating up 4 extra levels.

I could actually take WK sooner that MT so I'm looking at:
1st Ftr
2nd Ftr
3rd Rog
4th Rog
5th SB
6th WK
7th MT

[Invader]

You could drop the 4th rogue level and take 1 level of Swashbuckler for Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

That's even better.

Now that I get weapon finesse for free and I don't need rapid shots I should have a free feat to burn and as I only have a 1d6 sneak damage atm I don't really need to take craven this early.

[hex0]

You could drop the 4th rogue level and take 1 level of Swashbuckler for Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.

Probably this. Although you could go for Swash 3/Fighter 2 if your INT is decent. Or Swash 1/Fighter 2/Halfing Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halflingParagon) 2 (skills, save boosts, and +2 ranged damage)

[Invader]

Probably this. Although you could go for Swash 3/Fighter 2 if your INT is decent. Or Swash 1/Fighter 2/Halfing Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halflingParagon) 2 (skills, save boosts, and +2 ranged damage)

I'd say my int is average enough to not warrant leaving the ftr rog SB build

[hex0]

I'd say my int is average enough to not warrant leaving the ftr rog SB build

Which is why I suggested Halfling Paragon as it gives you +2 throw damage which is an untyped, non precision, damage. Screw oozes you are just that awesome...

[Salanmander]

Question:

If you have both brutal throw and weapon finesse, what attack modifier do you use for thrown light weapons? Can you pick?

[Invader]

Question:

If you have both brutal throw and weapon finesse, what attack modifier do you use for thrown light weapons? Can you pick?

On thrown weapons you automatically use your dex as the attack modifier. Weapon finesse is for melee attacks. Brutal throw allows you to add your str to thrown weapons to hit instead of dex in case you have a str based throwing build.

[Salanmander]

Ah, I thought brutal throw made it mandatory to use str instead of dex, not optional. I thought that was what made it awkward for a dex based build, not just that it was a feat tax.

[tyckspoon]

Ah, I thought brutal throw made it mandatory to use str instead of dex, not optional. I thought that was what made it awkward for a dex based build, not just that it was a feat tax.

Well, if you're planning to move on to Power Throw it means you have to invest more in Str so you can qualify for Power Attack, and it means you have 2 feats sunk (Power Attack+Brutal Throw) that you aren't actually going to use, which is worse than just 'feat tax'; it's a huge feat-sink.

[Gandariel]

Just my 2 cents:

Have you considered switching the first two levels to Feat rogue?
You get tons of skills(40 +5 x Int), trapfinding and evasion vs 1 BAB and 1d6 sneak attack(and a couple hp)

the actual rogue levels could be swapped for.. ninja?(sneak attack and invisibility and Wis to ac) or more swashbuckler?

[Garwain]

Have a look at 'The Shredder' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12853792&postcount=1), a dagger throwing build I've made without using ToB and to have damage that is always 'on'. So no messing around with sneak attack or precission damage or elemental damage or any other situational source of damage.

[Invader]

Just my 2 cents:

Have you considered switching the first two levels to Feat rogue?
You get tons of skills(40 +5 x Int), trapfinding and evasion vs 1 BAB and 1d6 sneak attack(and a couple hp)

the actual rogue levels could be swapped for.. ninja?(sneak attack and invisibility and Wis to ac) or more swashbuckler?

That would work but that minus 1 BAB would set back Whisperknife and Master thrower both back 1 level.

[Invader]

Have a look at 'The Shredder' (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12853792&postcount=1), a dagger throwing build I've made without using ToB and to have damage that is always 'on'. So no messing around with sneak attack or precission damage or elemental damage or any other situational source of damage.

That doesn't look to bad. I thought about taking VOP but I like my items and money to much lol.

[Xtomjames]

I'd note that a bag of infinite daggers or shurikens is better than the gauntlet, as it is just a quick draw (free action) to draw from the bag. As it was already stated the gauntlet requires a swift action to activate and you get one of those per round.

[Diarmuid]

Is a bag like that a standard item? From what book?

[arcticintel]

Its not an item I know of. Although he might be refering to a bag of holding filled with a large amount of daggers which would serve the same purpose.

[Gandariel]

No, it's an item from MIC.
provides as many daggers as you can pick up, but they vanish after 3 or so rounds (so you can make all your attacks with Quick draw, but you can't pile infinite daggers)
also has three daily charges you can use to ull out magical daggers.

[Garwain]

If you can use ToB, look at warblade+bloodstorm blade. Also often suggested is bard with dragonfire inspiration to get a lot of elemental damage per throw.

For feats and the lot, find usefull list here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13646215&postcount=10).

[Diarmuid]

A Bag of Holding wouldnt work for any type of build like this as removing items is normally a full round action (if bag holds more than a normal backpack could hold).

[Talionis]

One level late dip in Warblade or Swordsage can pick up Dancing Mongoose Maneuver and get two more throws. It maybe hard to recover maneuvers, but it still worth it. Not to mention that Sudden Leap is nice to be able to move as a Swift action and it can be a prerequisite for Dancing Mongoose.