My revised skill list and system, can anyone help me analyze? [D&D 3.5/4e rework]

[RedWarlock]

This is for my own rework/combination of 3.5/4e concepts. This skill system borrows from 3.5, Pathfinder, and 4e. I really want some input on a mechanical level to help me discuss it with my players.

Base skills function like Pathfinder, with 1 point spent per level with no cross-class penalty, and class skills getting that +3 bonus, which counts for prerequisites. In addition, the +3 increases by +1 at 2nd level and every 4th level after, but the total effective value, ranks+class-skill-bonus, cannot exceed total HD+3. (this means a level 20 character with 1 rank in a class skill has an effective 9 ranks) Most characters also get more skill points to start, 4+int is minimum, 6+int is most common, though rogues still probably only get 8+int due to their skills being compressed.

I hit upon a nice even split of skill numbers (nice to look at, but can be a trap when they don't functionally balance out), with 2 per physical score, and 6 per mental score.

I've been going back and forth on a few: Command has come and gone a few times, merged into Diplomacy, which I've half-debated renaming to 'Negotiate' for the sake of making the skill more action-verbal and clarifying its usage. (At least one of my players agrees.) Survival is currently out, but I'm *this* close to splitting it off of Nature.

I was also considering putting in weapons skills (at first glance, something like Weaponry/Archery, but maybe more granular, either divided by weapon class, or by attack technique, such as swing versus thrust) but I couldn't decide. All attacks in my revamp are Dex-based on the attack roll, but this would put strength back in a place of importance, so it would be the lesser of BAB+Dex, or Weaponry+Str. Archery would be the same, wisdom-based, practically building Zen Archery into the formula (rationale is, ranged attacks are as much about awareness of your target and surroundings as it is about a steady and quick hand). I've got Guard in already for my parry/shield skill, and it might use the same lesser-of-two option. If I do the weapons skills, the base numbers might jump a bit.

I've cut it now, but I was trying to add a Stability skill, which I can decide if that's something that should be a distinct derived combat score, a usage of Fortitude, or a skill. Is stability something that needs to be scalable with levels, or fixed, derived straight from size and ability scores? Is it something automatic, or trained? Maybe Fortitude could use the boost. All considered, Endurance below kinda cuts into the poisons/etc territory, which was inherited from 4e's use a Fort defense, and needing something active-roll for things that were Con-checks in 3e. I liked it because it meant I could roll all the generic Endurance-feat numbers together, and throw a more generic version of Autohypnosis on top.

There would be a good number of skill tricks that augment or add additional material to the skills. Those are marked with an asterisk. Some are a single trick that adds new functionality (like Ride Mount or Deceive Item) while others are whole suites of tricks, like Craft having various skill tricks for different mundane objects (and acting as foundation for crafting feats), or the Command and Beastmaster suites, which allow the training and control of minions. Command acts as a skill-base for Leadership, allowing marshal/White Raven/warlord-like tactical commands and buffs. Beastmaster tricks absorb the base functionality from the 4e beastmaster ranger, as well as many of the powers, the remainder generally becoming maneuvers (mainly ones that combine beast and ranger attacks), and use either Intimidate as the base skill for DCs and prereqs, or the auto-skill Wild Empathy for rangers, shamans, and shapeshifters (automatic level+Wis+3, no investment needed).

I should also clarify (since I mention it in the creature knowledges) that I've got a reduction of creature types. Beast, Construct, Dragon, Humanoid, Ooze, Spirit. The old types Aberration, Plant, Undead and Fey are subtypes. Most undead are constructs with the Undead subtype, but a few like vampires are humanoids. Spirit covers incorporeal undead as well as elementals and some outsiders, but most extraplanar creatures use mundane types like Beast or Humanoid with an Immortal subtype. Beast covers animals and magical beasts, with Magical being a subtype with the same breadth of purpose as Psionic (and Fey, under this system).

Acrobatics (Dex) - Balance, escape bonds, escape grapple, tumble
Arcana (Int) - Arcane spellcraft, creature knowledge (dragons, constructs, elementals)
Athletics (Str) - Climb, escape grapple, jump, ride mount*, swim
Command (Cha) - Give orders*, tactical advantage, train followers
Concentration (Con) - Defensive action, gain focus, ignore distraction
Craft (Int) - Create mundane object*, enchant magic item, repair
Deception (Cha) - Bluff, deceive item*, disguise, combat feint, seduce
Demonology (Cha) - Banish, bind demon, soul bargain
Diplomacy (Cha) - Influence attitude, haggle
Dungeoneering (Wis) - Creature knowledge (aberrations, oozes), underground foraging, underground navigation
Endurance (Con) - Hold breath, resist critical condition, resist fatigue, tolerate poison
Engineering (Int) - Build trap, disable trap, open lock, use rope
Guard (Str) - Block, defend, parry, shield other
Heal (Wis) - Bind wounds, evaluate injury, first aid, treat condition
History (Int) - Decipher scroll, forgery, historic lore
Insight (Wis) - Discern innuendo, read target, sense enchantment
Intimidate (Cha) - Battle of wills, demoralize opponent, handle animal*
Linguistics (Int) - Cryptography, speak language*, translate text
Nature (Wis) - Creature knowledge (beasts, fey), overland navigation and survival, plant lore, primal spellcraft
Perception (Wis) - Sense target, find tracks, hearing, vision, scent
Religion (Int) - Creature knowledge (undead, outsiders), divine spellcraft, religious lore
Spellcraft (Cha) - Detect magic, dispel magic, identify magical effect
Stealth (Dex) - Hide in shadows, sleight of hand, sneak silently, sniper shot, vanish into the crowd
Streetwise (Wis) - Appraise, creature knowledge (humanoids), gather information

[Grinner]

Why is Thievery dependent upon intelligence? It also seems as though you've used it as a dump for a number of odd skills.

Use Rope definitely shouldn't be categorized as Thievery, though it should be intelligence-based. Sleight of Hand, however, should be a usage of Thievery but should use dexterity instead.

[RedWarlock]

Why is Thievery dependent upon intelligence? It also seems as though you've used it as a dump for a number of odd skills.

Use Rope definitely shouldn't be categorized as Thievery, though it should be intelligence-based. Sleight of Hand, however, should be a usage of Thievery but should use dexterity instead.

Interesting point. Originally, I was building upon the 4e skill list, with a few critical additions. Thievery there also, I believe, included disabling traps and opening locks, which are in my Engineering.

Okay, I'll pull Thievery. Forgery goes into History, Sleight of Hand goes into Stealth, and Use Rope goes into Engineering.

[TuggyNE]

I've been going back and forth on a few: Command has come and gone a few times, merged into Diplomacy, which I've half-debated renaming to 'Negotiate' for the sake of making the skill more action-verbal and clarifying its usage. (At least one of my players agrees.) Survival is currently out, but I'm *this* close to splitting it off of Nature.

Personally I would agree that Diplomacy should generally be Negotiate/Negotiation (and also suggest folding Rich Burlew's fixes in as a starting point). Survival seems to work fine where it is.


I was also considering putting in weapons skills (at first glance, something like Weaponry/Archery, but maybe more granular, either divided by weapon class, or by attack technique, such as swing versus thrust) but I couldn't decide. All attacks in my revamp are Dex-based on the attack roll, but this would put strength back in a place of importance, so it would be the lesser of BAB+Dex, or Weaponry+Str. Archery would be the same, wisdom-based, practically building Zen Archery into the formula (rationale is, ranged attacks are as much about awareness of your target and surroundings as it is about a steady and quick hand). I've got Guard in already for my parry/shield skill, and it might use the same lesser-of-two option. If I do the weapons skills, the base numbers might jump a bit.

Hmm. This sounds intriguing, but it's likely to destabilize the system somewhat, and require an inordinate amount of work to check all the edge cases. I'd suggest leaving for phase II or something.


I've cut it now, but I was trying to add a Stability skill, which I can decide if that's something that should be a distinct derived combat score, a usage of Fortitude, or a skill. Is stability something that needs to be scalable with levels, or fixed, derived straight from size and ability scores? Is it something automatic, or trained? Maybe Fortitude could use the boost. All considered, Endurance below kinda cuts into the poisons/etc territory, which was inherited from 4e's use a Fort defense, and needing something active-roll for things that were Con-checks in 3e. I liked it because it meant I could roll all the generic Endurance-feat numbers together, and throw a more generic version of Autohypnosis on top.

I think stability is mostly a derived value, although it's reasonable to have a few ways to boost it.


I should also clarify (since I mention it in the creature knowledges) that I've got a reduction of creature types. Beast, Construct, Dragon, Humanoid, Ooze, Spirit. The old types Aberration, Plant, Undead and Fey are subtypes. Most undead are constructs with the Undead subtype, but a few like vampires are humanoids. Spirit covers incorporeal undead as well as elementals and some outsiders, but most extraplanar creatures use mundane types like Beast or Humanoid with an Immortal subtype. Beast covers animals and magical beasts, with Magical being a subtype with the same breadth of purpose as Psionic (and Fey, under this system).

*minor squee*

Seriously, that's pretty awesome.


Command (Cha) - Give orders*, tactical advantage, train followers

Intriguing. More information would be great. :smallsmile:


Concentration (Con) - Defensive action, gain focus, ignore distraction

Does this include opposing Bluff checks made for feints in combat (or whatever your replacement is)?


Craft (Cha) - Create mundane object*, enchant magic item, repair

Wait, why is this Charisma?


Dungeoneering (Wis) - Creature knowledge (aberrations, oozes), underground foraging, underground navigation
Engineering (Int) - Build trap, disable trap, open lock, use rope

Two solid changes. Not much to say.


Guard (Str) - Block, defend, parry, shield other

Hmm, another one that I'd like to know more about.


Spellcraft (Cha) - Detect magic, dispel magic, identify magical effect

Again, why is this Charisma?

[RedWarlock]

Personally I would agree that Diplomacy should generally be Negotiate/Negotiation (and also suggest folding Rich Burlew's fixes in as a starting point). Survival seems to work fine where it is.
I'll have to take another look at Rich's version, but yeah, it seems to be the logical naming choice, given it's being more clearly defined.


Hmm. This sounds intriguing, but it's likely to destabilize the system somewhat, and require an inordinate amount of work to check all the edge cases. I'd suggest leaving for phase II or something.
I'll keep it in mind, but yeah, it might be a bit too much for now. (I'm actually using this already in my own d20 concept game, a modern/urban fantasy setting, but then it's very different in some places.)


I think stability is mostly a derived value, although it's reasonable to have a few ways to boost it.
Hmm. So, then, a flat score ala AC, or folded into Fortitude? Thus far in my thinking, there are very few situations where someone resistant to poisons isn't also more stable.


*minor squee*

Seriously, that's pretty awesome.
Thanks! :D


Intriguing. More information would be great. :smallsmile:
Well, it's a combo case. It takes some of the functionality of the Marshal, combined with (actually an outgrowth of my 3e-implementation of) the 4e Beastmaster ranger. The 4e ranger has a lot of different powers that command and control his beast companion, as well as a base set of actions to control it.

This takes that concept and uses it to corral the Leadership problem. With Command (and the beastmaster skill-trick commands using Intimidate), a player can have minions, but the combat effectiveness is managed by this skill, and the various skill tricks which will serve as the individual orders. This means a player has to invest their own resources to accumulate the horde of minions and control them properly.


Does this include opposing Bluff checks made for feints in combat (or whatever your replacement is)?
I hadn't considered it, but it's an idea. Feinting isn't exactly overpowered on its own, though.


Wait, why is this Charisma?
It's not, anymore. Originally, I had tried to put it as Charisma to represent creativity being involved, considering this also covered magic crafting (and my magic is more charisma driven by nature).


Hmm, another one that I'd like to know more about.
Well, the basic implementation is a Parry skill that allows the defender to counter or cancel an attack, or at least temporarily boost AC vs a single attack, at the cost of your own attack. Other uses involve shields, or doing the same to defend an ally instead of just yourself. Part of my idea for AC and tanking fixes involves shifting armor into DR, or even %-based damage resistance, with minimal AC improvement, making an armored character have a lower AC than a mage-armored or swashbuckler-style character. Defend serves to assist the light-armored character, and to keep the tank defensible as well.


Again, why is this Charisma?
Because Arcana covers the same thing for arcanists, just as Nature and Religion do for primal and divine. Spellcraft is the more intuitive version, used by Eldritch casters, which will include bards, dragonfire adepts, and warlocks, all charisma-driven.

[TuggyNE]

Hmm. So, then, a flat score ala AC, or folded into Fortitude? Thus far in my thinking, there are very few situations where someone resistant to poisons isn't also more stable.

Hmm, yeah; a list of examples might be helpful, but Fortitude would probably be OK.


Because Arcana covers the same thing for arcanists, just as Nature and Religion do for primal and divine. Spellcraft is the more intuitive version, used by Eldritch casters, which will include bards, dragonfire adepts, and warlocks, all charisma-driven.

OK, gotcha, but the skill name was initially confusing (even though I saw the arcane/divine/primal spellcraft entries, I assumed they were secondary to the skill named Spellcraft).


Looks good!

[RedWarlock]

Hmm, yeah; a list of examples might be helpful, but Fortitude would probably be OK.
Well, the two examples that top my list are Dwarves, and Centaurs (as well as other quadrupeds or tauric creatures).


OK, gotcha, but the skill name was initially confusing (even though I saw the arcane/divine/primal spellcraft entries, I assumed they were secondary to the skill named Spellcraft).
Well, you're half right, they are, in a way. Arcana, Religion, and Nature serve as spellcraft skills for their own usage, for their own power source. (And to clarify, spellcraft will be more used in the sense of modifying and improving spells, maybe taking the place of caster checks in some instances, and perhaps absorbing/tweaking metamagic..)

Each of the base skills, Arcana/Religion/Nature, will serve as a more-specific spellcraft for abilities drawn from that power source, while Spellcraft serves as the generalist version. (think of how in the current rules, spellcraft and psicraft can cross-duty for each other. Here, they will as well, but not as good) It also works for Eldritch casters, who can't really modify their powers to that level. (well, Bards can, but they also have a custom Perform check which is built into the class.)


Looks good!
Glad you like it!

I've also added the last Cha-driven skill, which I've decided is going to be Demonology, for the binding of demons. Mechanics will be somewhere between Binder and Incarnum. You'll be able to make pacts with lesser demons, which will modify part of your body to reflect them (gaining demonic claws, or wings, or other accoutrements ala incarnum), or with greater demons, who take over your whole body and give you vaster powers(ala the Binder). Your soul is the meat of the bargain, and they grant this power to you because while they cannot steal your soul entirely from you, they are strengthened for the duration of the trade, and if you should die while they are bound, that borrowed part, or the entirety for greater bindings, is theirs to keep. You also have the ability to banish demons.

[young_genuis]

YOU NEED KNOWLEDGE BASED SKILLS:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::s mallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfuri ous::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::sma llfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfuriou s::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::small furious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious: :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfu rious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::s mallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfuri ous::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::sma llfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

[young_genuis]

sO SoRRY THat Did NOT worK OuT

[bobthe6th]

is their any incentive for a demon to keep you alive? I mean, free soul versus a little power...

[RedWarlock]

YOU NEED KNOWLEDGE BASED SKILLS:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::s mallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfuri ous::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::sma llfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfuriou s::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::small furious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious: :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfu rious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::s mallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfuri ous::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::sma llfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

Dude, chill! What's the problem, exactly?

I don't like parenthetical skills, so I used the 4e method and split them out onto their own, with functional uses alongside simple knowledge checks.


is their any incentive for a demon to keep you alive? I mean, free soul versus a little power...
They can't take it outright, not to that level. I had actually been considering the idea that, instead of the death-while-binding part, the binding corrupts you in an ongoing manner, eventually turning you into a demon yourself. I might go back to that.

[RedWarlock]

Okay, I came up with an interesting thought.. What if your maximum ranks is equal to half your level, rounded up? DCs and arbitrary conditional modifiers would be cut down (halved, generally, except for the base-10 on DCs).

This also kind of flattens the scale for skill progression a bit. The 3+(1/4 lvl) trained bonus is a bit more critical now.

It also opens up skill points for more skill tricks, and/or creates an interesting dynamic in that skills are not just a flat +1 per level default now. Little less brainless, and means that expectations are lower, so a character can play around with those points more, stretch out, maybe play with non-class skills.

[RedWarlock]

Gah, having trouble with my last Cha skill. Demonology was feeling too forced. I tried Psionics for a while, but I'm still thinking I want to break psionic abilities off into specific skill tricks related to skills, much like how many ToB maneuvers are skill-derived (IE, Telepathy becomes derived from Insight, a Chameleon or Invisibility power derived from Stealth, a Charm effect from Bluff, and so on, taking a skill concept to its supernatural extreme). My skill tricks are generally useable once per so-often for free (varied based on power) with a high DC to use at-will. (Stuff like an acrobatics skill trick to stand upright as a swift action 1/encounter, available from level 2, with a DC 30 check to do it at-will.)

What if I just made Initiative into a skill? (I make Init cha-based anyway, dex is overloaded.) It gets used as often as any skill, perhaps more. I just need secondary uses for it, something more interesting. Maybe a non-combat use? Or what if it was part of a broader skill term, what could it fit into?

[Yitzi]

-The increasing-bonus-with-a-cap system means that there's no point in maxing out your ranks. Are you sure you want that?
-If DEX is boosting BAB, I see no logical reason it shouldn't boost a weaponry skill as well. If you want to put STR back in a position of importance, you might want to do what I'm doing in my rework and give twice the STR bonus to damage but use the armor-as-DR variant.

[RedWarlock]

Warning: I get into excessive details on my rules-changes here. You triggered the avalanche, I just couldn't stop myself..


-The increasing-bonus-with-a-cap system means that there's no point in maxing out your ranks. Are you sure you want that?

Yeah, maybe the increasing bonus isn't as big a deal. Mmm. Bleh.


-If DEX is boosting BAB, I see no logical reason it shouldn't boost a weaponry skill as well. If you want to put STR back in a position of importance, you might want to do what I'm doing in my rework and give twice the STR bonus to damage but use the armor-as-DR variant.
Actually, I'm doing something like that with Strength already. I'm simplifying weapon strength effects down to how many hands are involved. (One hand, full strength bonus. Two hands, double strength bonus. That's it.)

This combines with my iterative change, where when you would normally get iteratives, instead you double your base weapon damage, including strength. (So where you'd normally deal let's say 1d8+3, at BAB +6 you now deal 2d8+6.) Then IF you miss, you get a retry on that attack, but lose one multiple of your base damage. (So a +11 BAB character doing 1d10+4 base gets a first attack which, if it hits, deals 3d10+12, but if he misses, he gets a retry at the same bonus that would deal 2d10+8 if THAT hits, or a final retry dealing the base 1d10+4.) These retries are a resource to manage, because Defense rolls and AoOs take from that same number pool. (I get into that below.)

I'm also working on shifting armor into mainly DR/resistance effects, favoring a combo of numeric reduction and resistance by halves or quarters. Light armor (so far) getting 1/4 resist, medium armor getting 1/2 resist, and full getting 3/4 resist. Stack that with a numeric reduction and you have heavy armor actually having a significant effect at high level. Meanwhile, mage armor and high dex styles of defense have little to no resist, but a much higher actual AC, meaning they're not likely to get hit at all, but when they do, they're in trouble.

(Which is presenting me with problems in terminology. If AC doesn't involve armor as its primary value, why should it still be called AC?)

Instead, because armor doesn't do much (if anything) for actual AC, that's where the Defend skill comes in. (Each block costs an iterative retry from above, and once you spend all of those, the defense roll replaces AC rather than only using better-of-the-two, so if you roll low, you're stuck with it.)

[Yitzi]

Instead, because armor doesn't do much (if anything) for actual AC, that's where the Defend skill comes in.

Ah, that makes sense; in my planned remake, DC to be hit (it's not really AC if armor isn't involved) is a combination of shield, DEX, possibly some buffs, and the ability to add BAB to defense instead of offense (or, with the right feat-equivalent and conditions, in addition to offense.)

[RedWarlock]

And the tortured self-analysis continues!

This is my current analyzed list. Some ability assignments are tentative, since I could see them going any of a few different ways. Willing to take suggestions.

Acrobatics (dex) movement - Balance/Tumble
Arcana (int) magic - Arcane magic control/Related knowledge
Athletics (str) movement - Climb/Fly/Jump/Swim
Command (cha) control - Minion command
Deception (cha) control - Bluff/Disguise/Feint
Defend (str) combat - Block/Parry/Protect
Dungeoneering (int) knowledge - Aberrations/Underdark survival
Endurance (con) combat - Endure poison/Focus/Suffer in silence (no more concentration, casting defensively now requires combat casting to even function.)
Engineering (int) knowledge - Arch&Eng/Craft traps/Disable traps
Healing (wis) magic - (REAL) Heal wounds (Screw it, low ranks are mundane, but after a point, boom, you're a magic empathic healer. This way the skill has a purpose.)
History (int) knowledge - Stuff
Inborn (con) magic - Innate magic control (IE, whatever racial magic or special stuff you might have, this acts as a catch-all skill for learning to control it. Every race might have something, like dwarven poison or spell resistance or something, or a dragon's breath weapon, or whatever.)
Insight (wis) sensory - Sense alignment/Sense motive
Intimidation (cha) control - Coercion/Handle beast/Menace
Linguistics (int) knowledge - Decipher script/Speak languages
Mysticism (wis) magic - Primal magic control/Related knowledge
Nature (wis) knowledge - Beasts/Wilderness survival
Necromancy (wis) magic - Eeeeevil magic control/Related knowledge (split off because while clerics always handled undead best, necromancy was also a midground between divine and arcane casters magic wise. Plus this way, I can set it up so cure spells use Healing, and Inflict spells use Necromancy.)
Negotiation (cha) control - Diplomacy
Perception (wis) sensory - Listen/Scent/Search/Spot
Sorcery (cha) magic - Eldritch magic control/Related knowledge
Stealth (dex) movement - Hide/Sneak
Streetwise (cha) knowledge - Humanoids/City survival
Theurgy (cha) magic - Divine magic control/Related knowledge

And despite appearances, no, I'm not drunk.

Edit: Added Inborn. Little wonky, but it just hit me as a good extra skill that can use Con. (might change the name)