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Empedocles
2012-05-06, 03:50 PM
This is a slight tweaking of the witch base class (an alternative sorcerer) presented in the DMG. It's designed much like a partial gestalt of the druid and witch, really :smallsmile: I hope you guys like it! Also, going for about mid to high Tier 3 even with the 9th level casting.


The Witch


http://www.fathalfling.com/_/rsrc/1312157486019/updates/Feiya%20-%20Witch.png

Custom
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Animal Companion, Poison Use|5|3|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Poison Use|6|4|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Poison Immunity|6|5|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|A thousand faces|6|6|3|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Wild Shape 1/day, Brew Potion|6|6|4|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Wild Shape 2/day|6|6|5|3|—|—|—|—|—|—

7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Wild Shape 3/day|6|6|6|4|—|—|—|—|—|—

8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Wild Shape (Large)|6|6|6|5|3|—|—|—|—|—

9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Disease Immunity|6|6|6|6|4|—|—|—|—|—

10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Wild Shape 4/day|6|6|6|6|5|3|—|—|—|—

11th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Wild Shape (Tiny)|6|6|6|6|6|4|—|—|—|—

12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Wild Shape (plant)|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|—|—|—

13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8||6|6|6|6|6|6|4|—|—|—

14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9|Wild Shape 5/day|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|—|—

15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9|Wild Shape (Huge)|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|—|—

16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Wild Shape (elemental 1/day)|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|—

17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|—

18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Wild Shape (6/day, elemental 2/day)|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Wild Shape (elemental 3/day, Huge elemental)|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6

[/table]
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d4

Class Skills:
Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (nature), Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) Χ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Spells Known
{table]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|4|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|4|2|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|5|2|0|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

5th|5|3|1|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

6th|6|3|1|0|—|—|—|—|—|—

7th|6|4|2|1|—|—|—|—|—|—

8th|7|4|2|1|0|—|—|—|—|—

9th|7|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—|—

10th|8|4|3|2|1|0|—|—|—|—

11th|8|4|4|3|2|1|—|—|—|—

12th|8|4|4|3|2|1|0|—|—|—

13th|8|4|4|3|3|2|1|—|—|—

14th|8|4|4|3|3|2|1|0|—|—

15th|8|4|4|3|3|3|2|1|—|—

16th|8|4|4|3|3|3|2|1|0|—

17th|8|4|4|3|3|3|2|2|1|—

18th|8|4|4|3|3|3|2|2|1|0

19th|8|4|4|3|3|3|2|2|2|1

20th|8|4|4|3|3|3|2|2|2|2

[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The witch is proficient with all simple weapons, but not with armor or shields.

Spells: A witch casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the witch spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must.

To learn or cast a spell, a witch must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a witch’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the witch's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a witch can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the above table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

A witch's selection of spells is extremely limited. A witch begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new witch level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Witch Spells Known. These new spells can be common spells chosen from the witch spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the witch has gained some understanding of by study. The witch can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a witch can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the witch "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level witch spell the witch can cast. A witch may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a witch need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.

Animal Companion: This ability functions identically to the druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) class feature, as described in the SRD and on page 35 of the Player's Handbook.

Poison Use: A witch can use poison without there being a chance of poisoning herself. In addition, any ingested poison that the witch herself prepares has a +2 bonus to the save DC for both the primary and secondary effects.

Poison Immunity: Starting at 3rd level a witch is immune to all poisons, both magical and nonmagical.

A thousand faces: At 4th level a witch can use alter self, as the spell, at will as a spell-like ability. Her CL is equal to her class levels.

Wild Shape: This ability functions identically to the druid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm) class feature, as described in the SRD and on page 37 of the Player's Handbook.

Brew Potion: At 5th level the witch gains Brew Potion as a bonus feat.

Disease Immunity: At 9th level a witch becomes immune to all diseases, both magical and nonmagical (so including things like lycanthropy and mummy rot).

Spell List
[SPOILER]0 Level: arcane mark, cure minor wounds, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, flare, ghost sound, light, mending, read magic, resistance, virtue.

1st Level: cause fear, change self, charm person, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, doom, endure elements, hypnotism, identify, silent image, sleep, speak with animals, ventriloquism.

2nd Level: blindness/deafness, calm emotions, cure moderate wounds, delay poison, detect thoughts, enthrall, invisibility, locate object, minor image, scare, whispering wind.

3rd Level: bestow curse, clairvoyance/clairaudience, contagion, create food and water, dispel magic, Leomund's tiny hut, magic circle against chaos/law/evil/good, major image, rage, remove blindness/deafness, suggestion, tongues.

4th Level: charm monster, crushing despair, discern lies, divination, fear, giant vermin, good hope, locate creature, minor creation, neutralize poison, polymorph, remove curse, scrying.

5th Level: baleful polymorph, dream, false vision, feeblemind, greater command, magic jar, major creation, mirage arcana, nightmare, seeming, sending.

6th Level: animate objects, control weather, eyebite, find the path, geas/quest, greater scrying, heroes' feast, legend lore, mass suggestion, mislead, repulsion, shadow image, Tenser's transformation, true seeing.

7th Level: creeping doom, finger of death, insanity, liveoak, repel wood, transport via plants.

8th Level: anitpathy, demand, discern location, horrid wilting, polymorph any object, sympathy, trap the soul.

9th Level: earthquake, foresight, refuge, shapechange, wail of the banshee, weird.

bobthe6th
2012-05-06, 04:21 PM
wild shape is a bad plan(and broken), I recommend a the shape shift variant(modified for the class). with more of a focus on utility and mobility then power...

also, still giving the free char... I mean animal companion? why not a sorc style familiar? would eliviate the whole "bonus fighter" problem.

the spell list is nice, but might I suggest some summoning spells? at least summon swarm.

and... well... I feel it could use more class features honestly. wild shape is nice, but I fealit could do more with posions. like a progresion on DC bonuses, or the abilaty to sacrifice spell slots to cast poison or something. also, spell vials would not go amiss (along with higher level potions).

Empedocles
2012-05-06, 04:38 PM
wild shape is a bad plan(and broken), I recommend a the shape shift variant(modified for the class). with more of a focus on utility and mobility then power...

also, still giving the free char... I mean animal companion? why not a sorc style familiar? would eliviate the whole "bonus fighter" problem.

the spell list is nice, but might I suggest some summoning spells? at least summon swarm.

and... well... I feel it could use more class features honestly. wild shape is nice, but I fealit could do more with posions. like a progresion on DC bonuses, or the abilaty to sacrifice spell slots to cast poison or something. also, spell vials would not go amiss (along with higher level potions).

I disagree with saying wild shape is broken. It's strong, yes, and potentially abusable, but by itself it isn't broken.

I gave it an animal companion because they're way, way cooler then familiars IMO and I don't mind an "extra fighter" that much. Again, it's good but not really broken or OP.

The summoning spells is a neat idea, but I would worry about it making this a little too strong (bumping it to low Tier 2, possibly).

As to more class features, I agree, but I probably won't expand on the poisons. One thought I had was giving it a Hexblade's Curse-esque ability (Witch's Curse) which fits into the archetype and gives it more to do.

bobthe6th
2012-05-06, 04:52 PM
eight level... boom, I am a polar bear with full casting(natural spell) with a dire wolverien backing me up... and I am a full caster with 27 str...
not OP at all, no sery

ok, first, the animal companions... are almost all CR1... so at level one it is a full caster... with a minion that should take on the whole party... and this is not OP? as they can often take down a fighter? as a minor class feature?

I don't know. perhapce create a witch specific summon? with a low power mix of utilaty summons?

Empedocles
2012-05-06, 04:59 PM
eight level... boom, I am a polar bear with full casting(natural spell) with a dire wolverien backing me up... and I am a full caster with 27 str...
not OP at all, no sery

ok, first, the animal companions... are almost all CR1... so at level one it is a full caster... with a minion that should take on the whole party... and this is not OP? as they can often take down a fighter? as a minor class feature?

I don't know. perhapce create a witch specific summon? with a low power mix of utilaty summons?

Wild shape mystic ranger is a full melee combatant, animal companion and wild shaping (duh) and it's....Tier 3. Balanced. Granted, this is a full caster, but it doesn't exactly have a great spell list.

Veklim
2012-05-06, 05:17 PM
Hrmmmm....

OK, first off, I feel I should point out that you have missed tier 3 by several lightyears. You have 9th level spells, wildshape and an animal companion. This makes the class tier 2 at absolute worst, and honestly wouldn't be hard to go full CoDzilla since this is basically just a slightly toned down druid but with spontaneous casting.

Secondly, whereas I agree the witch should have divine-based magic, the idea of spells always seemed off-the-mark for a witch. IMHO they should focus on curses, rituals, herbalism and cunning if they are to be anywhere NEAR what the majority of all witches in fiction and myth are suggested to be.

These two things aside, you're actually looking to be on the right track for a witch in many respects. My personal suggestions would be thus:

1. Drastically reduce/remove the spells. Give curses and curse-like spells to them as their immediate magic source, and run them more like the bardic music stuff works (i.e. limited charges, usable freely amongst a select few abilities on a certain vein), giving them curses/day. This will remove a large part of the CoDzilla trouble directly.

2. Tone down/refine the wildshaping. Only allow natural creatures (and maybe magical beasts at a higher level) for their forms, but allow them to 'augment' those natural forms with enhanced abilities along the lines of natural poison attacks, improved natural weapons, enhanced movement modes, enhanced senses and rider abilities activated with uses of their curses/day (see above). This will add flavour, and further reduce the CoDzilla effect.

3. Move Brew Potion up to first level, give them poison use at 1st or 2nd (not both! I would suggest 2nd btw), and give them full poison immunity at the same level.

4. Keep curses running of Charisma, and consider giving them their Charisma bonus to AC (max Witch class level) as long as they stay unarmoured, BUT! Put in rituals as a 'big magic' ability, and run these off Wisdom (my reasoning follows).

Rituals should take minutes, hours or perhaps even days to complete. They should be complex/mystical enough to seem both magical AND unfathomable to most other classes (my exception would be druids, and perhaps clerics of certain nature deities). I would think limiting your knowledge of rituals to a number + Wisdom modifier would make a lot of sense, i.e. Wisdom modifier basic rituals known at first, then higher level rituals access every 4 levels, and an extra ritual known for every 3 levels perhaps... The mechanics should be simple enough, choose some snacky spells and ideas for proper witchy stuff, tweak to fit a ritual pattern (so the effects may last longer or become permanent, be ready to use on someone kinda like a spell completion (nice for the single target ones since you'd have to prepare the ritual for a specific individual, making it probably more potent but also far less abusable, and giving some flavour all at once). Ritual examples would be effects like Baleful Polymorph, Control Weather, Call Lightning, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Contagion to name but a single 'B' and a couple of 'C's (and that's just PHB spells, you could go proper wild 'n' crazy here!) :smallbiggrin:

Honestly, the only trouble you're having just now, is that all your good ideas are being wasted on a kinda silly DMG alternative which I never remotely liked! If you're gonna present a Witch, do the lass some justice and step away from the core books :smallwink:

bobthe6th
2012-05-06, 05:23 PM
it gets those class features... and about bubkis otherwise.
this gets those class features+full casting(with a reasonable spell list, including full charming).
not the same thing. with this he gets to be a caster and a pretty good tank.
the main problem is that the charicters physical stats don't matter. the shape shift variant(see PHBII) they matter, as it just gives a stat bonus. stops the fact that all physical stats act as dump stats.

Empedocles
2012-05-06, 05:24 PM
Hrmmmm....

OK, first off, I feel I should point out that you have missed tier 3 by several lightyears. You have 9th level spells, wildshape and an animal companion. This makes the class tier 2 at absolute worst, and honestly wouldn't be hard to go full CoDzilla since this is basically just a slightly toned down druid but with spontaneous casting.

Secondly, whereas I agree the witch should have divine-based magic, the idea of spells always seemed off-the-mark for a witch. IMHO they should focus on curses, rituals, herbalism and cunning if they are to be anywhere NEAR what the majority of all witches in fiction and myth are suggested to be.

These two things aside, you're actually looking to be on the right track for a witch in many respects. My personal suggestions would be thus:

1. Drastically reduce/remove the spells. Give curses and curse-like spells to them as their immediate magic source, and run them more like the bardic music stuff works (i.e. limited charges, usable freely amongst a select few abilities on a certain vein), giving them curses/day. This will remove a large part of the CoDzilla trouble directly.

2. Tone down/refine the wildshaping. Only allow natural creatures (and maybe magical beasts at a higher level) for their forms, but allow them to 'augment' those natural forms with enhanced abilities along the lines of natural poison attacks, improved natural weapons, enhanced movement modes, enhanced senses and rider abilities activated with uses of their curses/day (see above). This will add flavour, and further reduce the CoDzilla effect.

3. Move Brew Potion up to first level, give them poison use at 1st or 2nd (not both! I would suggest 2nd btw), and give them full poison immunity at the same level.

4. Keep curses running of Charisma, and consider giving them their Charisma bonus to AC (max Witch class level) as long as they stay unarmoured, BUT! Put in rituals as a 'big magic' ability, and run these off Wisdom (my reasoning follows).

Rituals should take minutes, hours or perhaps even days to complete. They should be complex/mystical enough to seem both magical AND unfathomable to most other classes (my exception would be druids, and perhaps clerics of certain nature deities). I would think limiting your knowledge of rituals to a number + Wisdom modifier would make a lot of sense, i.e. Wisdom modifier basic rituals known at first, then higher level rituals access every 4 levels, and an extra ritual known for every 3 levels perhaps... The mechanics should be simple enough, choose some snacky spells and ideas for proper witchy stuff, tweak to fit a ritual pattern (so the effects may last longer or become permanent, be ready to use on someone kinda like a spell completion (nice for the single target ones since you'd have to prepare the ritual for a specific individual, making it probably more potent but also far less abusable, and giving some flavour all at once). Ritual examples would be effects like Baleful Polymorph, Control Weather, Call Lightning, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Contagion to name but a single 'B' and a couple of 'C's (and that's just PHB spells, you could go proper wild 'n' crazy here!) :smallbiggrin:

Honestly, the only trouble you're having just now, is that all your good ideas are being wasted on a kinda silly DMG alternative which I never remotely liked! If you're gonna present a Witch, do the lass some justice and step away from the core books :smallwink:

Alright, so here's what I think I'll do (feedback is, as always, appreciated).

In fast paced combat, make the witch more of a debuffer. This could start with some hexblade curse style abilities, a bit of baleful polymorph at higher levels, and possibly battlefield control? (entangle, for example).

I personally want to keep the magic arcane in nature, but since spells will probably go...

Rituals! :smallbiggrin: That's a great idea. Maybe a benefit would be being able to apply certain metamagic effects (like heighten or extend, but not quicken since that would defeat the purpose :smalltongue:) but the possible spells is extremely limited both by level and by potential spells you're allowed to use (ritual list, I guess).

Cha. to AC sounds good (what level should it come in do you think?) as do the other minor changes.

Silva Stormrage
2012-05-06, 05:29 PM
Wild shape mystic ranger is a full melee combatant, animal companion and wild shaping (duh) and it's....Tier 3. Balanced. Granted, this is a full caster, but it doesn't exactly have a great spell list.

Where are you getting that from? Most people refer to Mystic Ranger as a Lightning Warrior up until level 10....

It's animal companion is half strength compared to a druid's and it's wild shape is vastly weaker.

In the tier system post the original maker even mentioned that if he removed ALL of the druid's spell's the Druid would still be high tier 3 due to wild shape and animal companion.

That said it's probably tier 2. Probably low tier two on par with the wilder without the Educated Wilder ACF. It has Wildshape and the Animal Companion AND the spell list (Most of which are good and which gets shape change and the rest of the polymorph line)

Empedocles
2012-05-06, 05:36 PM
Where are you getting that from? Most people refer to Mystic Ranger as a Lightning Warrior up until level 10....

It's animal companion is half strength compared to a druid's and it's wild shape is vastly weaker.

In the tier system post the original maker even mentioned that if he removed ALL of the druid's spell's the Druid would still be high tier 3 due to wild shape and animal companion.

That said it's probably tier 2. Probably low tier two on par with the wilder without the Educated Wilder ACF. It has Wildshape and the Animal Companion AND the spell list (Most of which are good and which gets shape change and the rest of the polymorph line)

I thought people called the mystic ranger the lightning warrior only if it had the Sword of the Arcane Order (http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-valor--28/sword-of-the-arcane-order--2875/) feat...?

Low tier 2 isn't that bad, but I think I'm going to go with Veklim's suggestions.

Veklim
2012-05-06, 05:40 PM
Alright, so here's what I think I'll do (feedback is, as always, appreciated).

In fast paced combat, make the witch more of a debuffer. This could start with some hexblade curse style abilities, a bit of baleful polymorph at higher levels, and possibly battlefield control? (entangle, for example).

I personally want to keep the magic arcane in nature, but since spells will probably go...

Rituals! :smallbiggrin: That's a great idea. Maybe a benefit would be being able to apply certain metamagic effects (like heighten or extend, but not quicken since that would defeat the purpose :smalltongue:) but the possible spells is extremely limited both by level and by potential spells you're allowed to use (ritual list, I guess).

Cha. to AC sounds good (what level should it come in do you think?) as do the other minor changes.

Debuffer for the immediate magics is just about spot on, aye. You could have a lot of fun compiling that list!

Nature-oriented arcane is fine, and would make it equally unfathomable (word of the day :smallamused:) to arcane AND divine casters since it would have elements of both, but be neither. That gives more fuel to the flavour fire!

I've thought about rituals a loooong time now, always meant to get around to making a Witch, got dozens of notes somewhere. If I can dig 'em out and dust them off I'll cherry pick the nice stuff and post it up for you if you like..? Metamagics are cool, and a good place to start, but don't limit yourself to them. Ritual magic gives options for covens, multiple Witches working together, there should probably be an adjoining set of 3 level PrCs, The Maiden, The Mother and The Hag (i.e. The Other One, for all those who get the reference).

The Charisma mod could start at first level, if it's limited by class level then it can't get out of hand without SERIOUS shenanigans (and nobody can prevent that but the DM, and so the DM should).

Also, forgot to mention. Present Craft (Herbalism) as the Witch's answer to Alchemy, allow it to do all those little things a Witch's salves, ointments and poultices of questionable origins should do. This removes all the healing spells from the equation (making curses and rituals easier to choose and refine) but retains the healer element. Perhaps even mix this idea with the poisons element, making Herbalism a catch-all ability unique to the Witch instead of a Craft skill...

Empedocles
2012-05-06, 05:42 PM
Debuffer for the immediate magics is just about spot on, aye. You could have a lot of fun compiling that list!

Nature-oriented arcane is fine, and would make it equally unfathomable (word of the day :smallamused:) to arcane AND divine casters since it would have elements of both, but be neither. That gives more fuel to the flavour fire!

I've thought about rituals a loooong time now, always meant to get around to making a Witch, got dozens of notes somewhere. If I can dig 'em out and dust them off I'll cherry pick the nice stuff and post it up for you if you like..? Metamagics are cool, and a good place to start, but don't limit yourself to them. Ritual magic gives options for covens, multiple Witches working together, there should probably be an adjoining set of 3 level PrCs, The Maiden, The Mother and The Hag (i.e. The Other One, for all those who get the reference).

The Charisma mod could start at first level, if it's limited by class level then it can't get out of hand without SERIOUS shenanigans (and nobody can prevent that but the DM, and so the DM should).

Also, forgot to mention. Present Craft (Herbalism) as the Witch's answer to Alchemy, allow it to do all those little things a Witch's salves, ointments and poultices of questionable origins should do. This removes all the healing spells from the equation (making curses and rituals easier to choose and refine) but retains the healer element. Perhaps even mix this idea with the poisons element, making Herbalism a catch-all ability unique to the Witch instead of a Craft skill...

Man. You have some nice ideas! I'd love to see your notes on ritual magic :smallbiggrin:

Veklim
2012-05-06, 05:44 PM
I thought people called the mystic ranger the lightning warrior only if it had the Sword of the Arcane Order (http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-valor--28/sword-of-the-arcane-order--2875/) feat...?
Not really, that feat represents the awful, silly and sickening things you can do to make the Mystic Ranger go beyond a joke. Without it they are merely extremely powerful combatants.

Low tier 2 isn't that bad, but I think I'm going to go with Veklim's suggestions.
:smallredface: awwww, shucks!

Veklim
2012-05-06, 05:46 PM
Man. You have some nice ideas! I'd love to see your notes on ritual magic :smallbiggrin:

Excavations shall commence in my next free evening!

Randomguy
2012-05-06, 06:25 PM
I think a reduced version of wildshape would be better for the class: I can see a witch turning into a crow to fly away, but not turning into a bear to fight in combat. Maybe wildshape to small + medium creatures only? It shouldn't be as important a class feature as it is, I think.

Have you considered adding on something similar to the hexblade's curse progression? Except maybe make it useable a bit more often (as often as turn undead) and make dire curse a capstone.

Empedocles
2012-05-06, 06:32 PM
I think a reduced version of wildshape would be better for the class: I can see a witch turning into a crow to fly away, but not turning into a bear to fight in combat. Maybe wildshape to small + medium creatures only? It shouldn't be as important a class feature as it is, I think.

Have you considered adding on something similar to the hexblade's curse progression? Except maybe make it useable a bit more often (as often as turn undead) and make dire curse a capstone.

... (no offense :smalltongue:)



As to more class features, I agree, but I probably won't expand on the poisons. One thought I had was giving it a Hexblade's Curse-esque ability (Witch's Curse) which fits into the archetype and gives it more to do.



1. Drastically reduce/remove the spells. Give curses and curse-like spells to them as their immediate magic source, and run them more like the bardic music stuff works (i.e. limited charges, usable freely amongst a select few abilities on a certain vein), giving them curses/day. This will remove a large part of the CoDzilla trouble directly.


In fast paced combat, make the witch more of a debuffer. This could start with some hexblade curse style abilities, a bit of baleful polymorph at higher levels, and possibly battlefield control? (entangle, for example).


Debuffer for the immediate magics is just about spot on, aye. You could have a lot of fun compiling that list!


Yes. It has been considered once or twice. I actually od like the idea of giving it more often though, thanks! :smallsmile:

Empedocles
2012-05-06, 07:45 PM
Hey, so here's my thought on the wild shape.

I'll bring it down to 4th level but make it like the shapechange ACF.

Give the flying form before the predator form (it's more appropriate for a witch IMO).

Uses per day?

And to the hexblade's curse (since I'm going to utterly nerf the spells; at the very least bring it down to the bard's progression) would it be too much to make it usable an infinite number of times per day? It'll definitely have more uses though.

Veklim
2012-05-09, 02:35 PM
I'll bring it down to 4th level but make it like the shapechange ACF.
Sounds fine to me, give them animal empathy at 2nd or 3rd too, witches often communicate with creatures. Consider allowing a 'favourite species' or something, creatures of that type will always start as friendly towards you, but that animal's prey (if it's a predator) would likely start as unfriendly.


Give the flying form before the predator form (it's more appropriate for a witch IMO).
Absolutely, no witch should be without a bird form! :smallwink:


Uses per day?
I'd say it should probably run on the main or secondary stat. Since Charisma is looking likely for AC bonus (due largely to the lack of armour use OR standard defensive spells) and controls the intensity of curses (more on that in a moment...), then Wisdom would be a good fit for wildshape uses and Rituals (notes not easy to find, will outline my mechanics notes though, those I found!). I'd suggest uses/day equal to 1/4 character levels + Wis mod (so it starts at 1+Wis at 4th, and goes up through levels and stats alike).


And to the hexblade's curse (since I'm going to utterly nerf the spells; at the very least bring it down to the bard's progression) would it be too much to make it usable an infinite number of times per day? It'll definitely have more uses though.
I think the Hexblade's curse is how we start, then build on the idea. Remember, if you're nerfing spells (maybe completely) the curses can become the utility/debuff device which replaces them. The save mechanic is fine, as is the initial curse. From thereon out I have a few ideas!

Make the curses/day equal to class level + Charisma modifier, this will allow for a decent range, and therefore choice, of curse potential per day. Make them start off being a standard action, since they're about to get a whole lot better! At 3rd level give them a stunning/sickening effect to stack onto the basic -2 to rolls hexblade curse. 5th would bring a Slow ability to use instead of stun/sicken if you so choose. 7th makes the base curse -4 to rolls, 9th brings a paralysis/hold monster effect, etc, etc.
Obviously there's much more you could present, a list of 2 or 3 balanced effects to chose from on every odd level would be good (except maybe the -4, -6 thing at 7th and 15th, since the base negatives of the curse should always be active, regardless of the rider you chose to tack on).

You can then consider later-level abilities to increase the number of riders per curse with extra charges, decrease the time taken to curse (standard->move->swift perhaps?), and maybe do small radius curse-bursts(tm)..?

For rituals, chose some big effects you want and put them in 2 categories, Area and Target.
For the Area Rituals maybe start with stuff like fog banks, biting cold, heavy rain, large-scale circles of protection, area camouflage and something akin to frightening presence for an area (the witch's cottage is so foreboding you cannot bring yourself to step inside, or even look through the windows).
For the Target Rituals, you should have something belonging to or representing the target in question (simply a name and location may be enough for low level ones, but locks of hair, blood, spittle, discarded clothes, even a coin which the target has held might be required. You can figure this out on a ritual to ritual basis, listed as a focus and/or component/s) For these you want to look at stuff like baleful polymorph, contagion, dessicate, barkskin, true seeing and invisibility. These will give inspiration on what sort of effects to aim for, and from there you make them worth X amount of time in ritual, i.e. the true seeing might last for a number of hours/level instead of minutes, fog bank would be obscurring mist but adapted to a larger area, probably concentration-controlled by the witch at will.

A Ritual would look a fair bit like a spell in format, but ritual times would be measured in minutes (1st circle Ritual), tens of minutes (2nd circle Ritual), hours (3rd & 4th circle Rituals) and maybe even days (for particularly nasty 4th circle Rituals).
Instead of a spell level, you'd have a Spellcraft or Concentration DC to complete the ritual (a la epic spellcasting, see below)
Durations would be either hours/level, days/level, or permanent. This makes many of the possible Ritual options VERY worth it.
Range will either be Target (target must be cursed first, then the Ritual can be completed by targeting them perhaps?) or Area (probably need to be within a mile or two of the location, and able to observe it whilst performing the ritual)

The Spellcraft/Concentration (unsure which one) DC should assume a roll of 10 to pass at the level you can access it, so taking 10 (i.e. being out of combat/stressful conditions) would be the best way to do a ritual, obviously requiring a roll if interrupted or attempted in a stressful locale. You could maybe voluntarily increase the DC to reduce Ritual completion times.

I assumed Rituals known to be Wisdom modifier 1st circle rituals to begin with, then an extra ritual known at every even level. You'd gain access to 2nd circle rituals at 5th level, 3rd circle at 10th level and 4th circle at 15th level. There should be some sort of limit to your rituals/day, but this will become largely irrelevant by the 3rd circle, because the player/group won't want to take 2 days downtime between each major fight, and it will often be unreasonable to wait for Rituals more than a few hours at best in many situations. I think adding to the time taken to complete a ritual makes the most sense when applying metamagics and similar abilities, however if you go for the higher DC for shorter Ritual times idea above, then this would work well as a counter-part to the rule, i.e. (numbers are mostly arbitrary at this stage) a 2nd Circle Ritual takes 30 minutes to complete, you decide to heighten the effect for a +2 bonus to the save DC, and so you add 20 minutes (10 minutes/metamagic feat's spell level adjustment) for a total of 50 minutes. You decide this is a bit much, and elect to increase the base Spellcraft/Concentration DC by 5 for every 10 minutes you wish to shave off the time. So it would take 30 minutes at base DC 20, 40 minutes at base DC 15 or 50 minutes at base DC 10.

Of course, you may not like any of this! I'll keep looking for the few specifics I made for the NPC which used this framework in a few of my last campaign's sessions, I have a clue where I may have secreted those particular campaign notes...(crossing fingers)

wayfare
2012-05-09, 08:28 PM
Rituals are great things, and my tool of choice for de-powering magic. Want to Shapechange? Sure. Its gonna take you a full day and the corpse of whatever you want to Shapechange into!