Gestalts that are Tier 3 or lower

[Empedocles]

Alright, I'm wondering what potential gestalts would be Tier 3 or below (and therefore usable in a normal campaign). NPC gestalts, like adept//warrior or adept//expert come to mind immediately but I'd like to see some ideas and thoughts on this.

[Oscredwin]

According to JaronK, things like Fighter//Monk and Fighter//Rogue would work. I'd say heavily redundant ones like Barbarian//Fighter would also be fine.

[hex0]

Duskblade//Factotum
Duskblade//Spellthief
Duskblade//Warmage

...Seeing a pattern? :smallbiggrin:

Factblade (Factotum//Warblade) is already an established build.

Actually Monk with anything full BAB is amazing because full BAB flurry is much better than regular flurry.

edit: Imperious Command CW Samurai//Hexblade can scare the bajeesus out of people. Dragon Shaman//Crusader sounds fun too. Marshal//Battledancer shouts out inspirational commands as she breakdances monsters to death. :smallwink:

[deuxhero]

"Tier 3 or lower" isn't that hard to achieve. The barrier between tier 2 and 3 is abilities that break the game, not versatility and power as it is for everything else.

Honestly, getting past that hurdle without involving a tier 1/2 class is something you have to try to do and I'm not sure of any combos that do that.

Only thing that comes to mind is uber strict RAW abuse of the fact that a Gestalt combo is only 1 class with the benefits of both and thus (for example) the Healer spells (Is there another prepared caster with 1-9th levels spells in tier 3 or under?) on a Paladin//Healer are "Paladin" spell slots and can be used with Sword of the Arcane Order, and even then it's just cheesing into a fake tier 1 caster.

[Empedocles]

"Tier 3 or lower" isn't that hard to achieve. The barrier between tier 2 and 3 is abilities that break the game, not versatility and power as it is for everything else.

Honestly, getting past that hurdle without involving a tier 1/2 class is something you have to try to do and I'm not sure of any combos that do that.

Only thing that comes to mind is uber strict RAW abuse of the fact that a Gestalt combo is only 1 class with the benefits of both and thus (for example) the Healer spells (Is there another prepared caster with 1-9th levels spells in tier 3 or under?) on a Paladin//Healer are "Paladin" spell slots and can be used with Sword of the Arcane Order, and even then it's just cheesing into a mirror.

Shugenja is a prepared caster IIRC.

[gorfnab]

Paladin // Dragon Shaman
Hexblade // Warlock
Paladin // Marshal

[Salanmander]

Perhaps a more interesting question is this:

"What gestalt combinations are fairly comparable in power and versatility to a non-gestalt tier 3 character."

So, what gestalt would be a hard choice when put up against a factotum? Beguiler? Crusader? Warblade?

[Sutremaine]

Monk//Swordsage. Monk speed* and passive abilities combined with active Swordsage manoeuvres, and allows you to play a monk while playing a Monk (note capitalisation).

Flurry of Blows doesn't gain anything and you're still using d8 HD, but that's not too much of a problem given the topic requirements.

*Depending on whether or not you change it from an enhancement bonus to an untyped bonus. As it stands, it's 12th level before the bonus outstrips that of Haste or Expeditious Retreat. While it's nice not to need as much magical support, it's pretty underwhelming for a class feature you have to invest levels in. The Barbarian gets an untyped bonus. :/

[Empedocles]

Monk//Swordsage. Monk speed* and passive abilities combined with active Swordsage manoeuvres, and allows you to play a monk while playing a Monk (note capitalisation).

Flurry of Blows doesn't gain anything and you're still using d8 HD, but that's not too much of a problem given the topic requirements.

*Depending on whether or not you change it from an enhancement bonus to an untyped bonus. As it stands, it's 12th level before the bonus outstrips that of Haste or Expeditious Retreat. While it's nice not to need as much magical support, it's pretty underwhelming for a class feature you have to invest levels in. The Barbarian gets an untyped bonus. :/

A monk//swordsage gestalt seems hopelessly redundant since there's already an unarmed swordsage...

[erikun]

Pretty much anything T3 or less, except the Factotum, could probably gestalt together to give something below T2 level. Factotum just gives multiple or expanded options too easily, and could easily bump the character up a tier.

There might be a Binder combination that gives you T2 versatility, as might an Initiator//T3 caster. PsyWar//Ardent, for those few who consider Ardent to only be T3, would probably bump it up to T2 as well.

[willpell]

Duskblade//Factotum
Battledancer

I've never heard of this class and have often wondered whether there was a representative of the dancer archetype in D&D. Where is this described?

[deuxhero]

Some Dragon Magazine. Pretty sure it is in the compendium.

[Randomguy]

I think gestalting just about any 2 tier 3's or under would result in a tier 3 or under. In fact, gestalting any amount of tier 4's or lower still won't get you a tier 2.

Monk//Anthing full BAB makes monks somewhat playable, as does Monk/Adept, for some wisdom synergy. Heck, Monk//Adept//Warrior still probably wouldn't be overpowered, since it's just a full BAB monk with some spellcasting. Monk//Rogue is also decent, for a monk that actually gets skill points.

Even Monk//Rogue//Adept//Warrior is only a high tier 3.

It would be easier to list the things that could become tier 2: Beguiler//Warmage or Beguiler//Dread necromancer are both probably tier 2, though a low tier 2, since it's a powerful and versatile combination, but it still doesn't have any game breaking ticks at all, like a sorcerer does. No genesis, no Ice assassin, no celerity, no wings of cover.

[Sutremaine]

A monk//swordsage gestalt seems hopelessly redundant since there's already an unarmed swordsage...
It fits the topic. The OP is after gestalts of a particular power level, and painting the Monk onto the Swordsage combines the nice (if hopelessly underpowered) class features of the Monk with the striking power of the Swordsage. It is pretty redundant, and leaves the Tier 3 Swordsage at Tier 3 as requested.

It may also be useful for players who really want to play a Monk and still be effective, so long as the OP disallows Monks as non-gestalts.

[Menteith]

I've never heard of this class and have often wondered whether there was a representative of the dancer archetype in D&D. Where is this described?

Dragon Magazine Compendium, Volume I, page 26. They have the unarmed strike progression of a monk, D8 hit die, full BAB, good Ref, Cha to AC when unarmored, a few speed upgrades, and learns a number of unique dances keyed off Tumble, most of which are pretty good. One lets you Tumble your full movement speed, and another one gives you Pounce. It's not a bad class at all.

[Empedocles]

Dragon Magazine Compendium, Volume I, page 26. They have the unarmed strike progression of a monk, D8 hit die, full BAB, good Ref, Cha to AC when unarmored, a few speed upgrades, and learns a number of unique dances keyed off Tumble, most of which are pretty good. One lets you Tumble your full movement speed, and another one gives you Pounce. It's not a bad class at all.

It's a neat concept...but actually it's tier 5 :smallfrown: I've always wanted to see a fix though to bring it up to at least the level of the warlock (high tier 4 I guess).

[Darth Stabber]

I actually allow gestalting together certain low tier classes in the game I am running, but no one's decided to take me up on it.

List of classes for combining:
Any NPC class
Soulknife
Samurai
Soulborn
Dragon shaman
Monk
CA Ninja
Healer

[Answerer]

I've never heard of this class and have often wondered whether there was a representative of the dancer archetype in D&D. Where is this described?
It's insultingly bad. As in, considerably worse than the Monk.

It's capstone is a full-round action for a single attack. The bonus? +2d6 damage.

[Soranar]

It's insultingly bad. As in, considerably worse than the Monk.

It's capstone is a full-round action for a single attack. The bonus? +2d6 damage.

You misread the capstone ability, basically it says this:

pick a target within 30 feet, make a tumble check dance as a full round action. If successful, any attack you make against that target gets 2d6 extra damage and critical hits are automatically confirmed.

Is a 2d6 damage bonus to all attackts worth a full round action? Not sure but it's probably a better idea to multiclass out than to try and achieve this, that's for sure.

[Menteith]

It's insultingly bad. As in, considerably worse than the Monk.

It's capstone is a full-round action for a single attack. The bonus? +2d6 damage.

I wouldn't go that far. Pounce alone would make it better than a Monk to me, and being able to ignore AoO from movement is solid, and full BAB is much stronger than Flurry of Blows. It's (at best) low T4, but it's still better than the Monk. Yes, the capstone is garbage, and the flight gained at level 17 is WAY too late, but it beats becoming an Outsider, which is actively detrimental.

EDIT

I wonder how long the effects of the capstone last, as it never says they go away. Dance at a target, and until the end of time, you have +2d6 damage and automatically confirm all critical hits on them?

[Snowbluff]

Duskblade//Factotum
Duskblade//Spellthief
Duskblade//Warmage

...Seeing a pattern? :smallbiggrin:

Factblade (Factotum//Warblade) is already an established build.

Actually Monk with anything full BAB is amazing because full BAB flurry is much better than regular flurry.

edit: Imperious Command CW Samurai//Hexblade can scare the bajeesus out of people. Dragon Shaman//Crusader sounds fun too. Marshal//Battledancer shouts out inspirational commands as she breakdances monsters to death. :smallwink:

So... Warblade Beguiler would be too strong? How well would a Warblade Beguiler out?

[Tsuzurao]

I wouldn't go that far. Pounce alone would make it better than a Monk to me, and being able to ignore AoO from movement is solid, and full BAB is much stronger than Flurry of Blows. It's (at best) low T4, but it's still better than the Monk. Yes, the capstone is garbage, and the flight gained at level 17 is WAY too late, but it beats becoming an Outsider, which is actively detrimental.

EDIT

I wonder how long the effects of the capstone last, as it never says they go away. Dance at a target, and until the end of time, you have +2d6 damage and automatically confirm all critical hits on them?

The Dragon Compendium has errata available for it.
Dance of Death's Embrace is said in the errata to last until the end of the Battle Dancer's next turn.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

It would be easier to list the things that could become tier 2
Could a warmage with "arcane disciple" ?

[Randomguy]

Warmage with advanced learning gets 4 new, non warmage spells, the highest one being level 7, and one of them being a cantrip. I doubt this would even hit tier 3. Even a warmage that took a level of Sandshaper, which gives a boatload of extra spells would only be tier 3.

EDIT: Whoops, I was thinking of Eclectic learning, not arcane disciple. But I would still say no, it can't bring it up to tier 2. Lostbutseeking pointed out below how it come very close to the power level of tier 2 at level 18+ with the right domains (And even then a low tier 2, since a warmage could only cast those spells 1/day while a sorcerer could cast them several times), but tier is measured by power over all 20 levels, not power over the last few levels. If it were just the last few levels, then Truenamers would be tier 2 because they get Gate at will at level 20.

[Lostbutseeking]

Could a warmage with "arcane disciple" ?

Dragon below, Drow, Glory, Pact, Portal and Summoner domains grant Gate as their level 9 spell.

Animal and Scalykind grant Shapechange.

Commerce, Renewal and Trickery grant Polymorph Any Object.

Meditation, Mentalism, Sloth and Travel have Astral projection.

Luck of course has Miracle.

While Envy has Magic jar, Simulacrum and Wish.

So yes, a Warmage with arcane disciple and a sufficently high wisdom can break the game and thus be tier 2.

[Soranar]

Here's a few (arguably) tier 3 gestalts I've seen /made

note: none of these include a class that's already tier 3 as that would make the whole thing redundant

Rogue//Fighter
Scout//Whirling Frenzy pounce Barbarian

Better fighting abilities + x8 skillpoints

Warlock//Sneak Attack Thug

-Warlock is already a high tier 4, this gives it the bump to tier 3

Warmage//Spellthief

without arcane disciple, with it breaks the tier limit if you use the appropriate domain

non wildshape Ranger// Knight

makes the ranger a bit tougher which fixes some of it's problems, d12 hitpoints, all good saves and x6 skillpoints + limited spellcasting is just enough to get to tier 3... knight is a difficult class to pair due to the code requirements.

Hexblade// Marshal

You become a buffer and a debuffer as free actions, all CHA based. Also greatly enhances your social skills due to auras

Swashbuckler//Monk

Kung-fu genius or carmendine monk + shadow blade and you're set. Being Int based compensates for your limited skillpoints.

Paladin // Adept

If possible take serenity, add in an improved familiar and you're set.

[Zaq]

You could make an argument that a Warlock|Shadowcaster is T3. The only glaring flaw is a lack of many native swift/immediate actions. It's thematic as hell, too.

[Ingus]

I think a gestalt PsiWar/Warlock or PsiWar/Binder can go up a level with clever use (ok, ok, blatant exploit) of Expanded Knowledge (schism) using the extra mental standard action to perform SLAs at full level.
...this if you consider performing Eldritch Blast or use a Vestige power for free every round "potentially game breaking".

[Larkas]

Monk//Fighter is a popular choice, though if you want something even better than unarmed Swordsage, go with Monk//Warblade.

[Answerer]

You could make an argument that a Warlock|Shadowcaster is T3. The only glaring flaw is a lack of many native swift/immediate actions. It's thematic as hell, too.
I'm playing one (well, technically it's a Warlock 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10), and... it may just be my build, but I feel like all I can do at all well is counterspell. If there's no one to counterspell, I'm just not really doing anything.

[Duke of URL]

If we're moving the discussion to "can I gestalt two Tier 4 or lower classes to make a Tier 3 result?" then the answer is probably yes. There are some combinations that might be able to push Tier 4 pairs (especially) to Tier 3, or at least an extremely high Tier 4.

Some that come to mind:

Rogue // Warlock -- basically making the Rogue better with at-will detect magic, improved ability to UMD, an at-will ranged attack that can be used without any other equipment (say, if you want to pull off an assassination in a place where weapons and spell components aren't allowed), and invocations which can be selected to provide the Rogue with valuable passive abilities (save boosts, skill boosts, movement modes, miss chances, invisibility, darkvision, etc.). You'll likely want to be a sniper to get the most out of ranged sneak attacks, so Hide should be maximized.

Warlock // Marshal -- for Charisma monkeys, pump your Charisma for all it's worth. On the Warlock side, this means looking at invocations that allow for saving throws, taking Ability Focus to get the most out of your eldritch blast essences, and stocking up on wands and scrolls to UMD so you can handle utility situations. The Marshall auras allow you to self-boost spell penetration to obscene levels when you need it while still being a party-friendly booster the rest of the time. The good Fort save, extra skill points, and slight boost to HD don't hurt, either.

Note that in each case, I'm starting with an "I'm an X and I'm making myself better with Y" approach. You make the Rogue better with Warlock abilities. You make the Warlock better with Marshal abilities.

Even though Warlock was used in both cases, they're very different Warlocks -- the first provides support to make a Rogue better at being a Rogue, the second is first and foremost a Warlock with buffing abilities.