A DM's Woes: What Just Happened? (2 BBEG Dead in 1 Round)

[Empedocles]

I sat there, staring, as my players laughed hysterically.

In Krynn, our campaign setting of choice, there lay a smoldering, melted mesh of wizard and draconian, all that remained of my intricate, detailed, meticulously planned plot.

This was our 2nd session of the campaign, and at this point the party was level 4 and consisted of a focused conjuror specialist wizard, a human swordsage, a tarmak mystic (DMPC, so he didn't do much), and a cleric. The wizard was fairly optimized and the cleric geared towards combat (but not optimized). I guess my problems started there. Two tier 1 characters, a tier 2, and a tier 3.

In any case, the first part of the adventure went flawlessly, and left me feeling very content as a DM. The PCs recovered two magical artifacts from angry draconians, battled and were appropriately challenged by an animated twelve headed statue of Takhisis the Dark Queen after which point the entered into a duel with an elven noble (who was actually a level 8 black robed wizard...) named Alfelias.

Ah, Alfelias. Perhaps one of my favorite villains I've ever designed, outside of my satisfyingly evil Scar (a mul warblade, but that's besides the point :smallwink:). What plans I had for Alfelias. The PCs handed over the magical music box they'd found to him after he pretended to be defeated, and I reveled in my brilliance.

My brilliance began to plummet as the PCs followed Alfelias to his evil lair about ten levels early. I tried at first to deter them with evil draconian assassins, but then decided that as soon as they arrived and encountered Alfelias' shapeshifting sivak CR 6 guards they would abandon him and try for a different course of action. My brilliance, at this point, had tapered out.

When the PCs confronted and soundly butchered all of the CR 6 guards to Alfelias' underground hideout, I felt the first hints that maybe something had gone wrong. They proceeded to completely smash through my dizzying array of traps and guards before catching my CR 9 aurak draconian villain Drachma and Alfelias (CR 8) and killing them both in the surprise round. My plot was crushed. My brilliance...nonexistent. (http://www.jmorganmarketing.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/how-to-be-an-idiot.jpg)

So have any other DMs had similar experiences? :smallsmile: And sorry for the wall of text in which little was actually said...

[Sutremaine]

What were the ACs, saves, and DCs of the relevant parties? CR is descriptive, not proscriptive, and if your level 4 players have a very good chance of either making their attack rolls or roflstomping the CR 8 / 9 enemy's saves then CR is unreliable.

Next time, more communication on the villains' part. Sending isn't a pocket change spell at those levels, but signal whistles are cheap.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Hooray! Story!

I had this happen to me once. I had designed a Temple of the Beholder to be this elaborately planned and scaled... Thing that was essentially the pre-gen from Hell. It was a nine-door switch puzzle (each leading down a tunnel that was not unlike the Beholder's eye stalk), leading to a room or rooms were the party had to endure one of eight challenges themed around the eight Wizard schools (the temple was crafted by a high-level generalist Wizard). The ninth and final stalk was a fight with a Beholder (with class levels, but not Beholder Mage levels) who was built up to be the last boss of the temple (being that it's a Temple of the Beholder). In the middle of the main room was a giant statue of the man who built the temple himself.

The party was able to successfully make it through the first of the challenges, which was abjuration-themed (and contained an iron golem with a permanent, triple-extended antimagic field centered on itself, followed immediately by a prismatic wall which was guarding the smaller, second room with the switch), before heading back to the main lobby (where three more doors had opened). The sorcerer, who was built as a pre-gen for just this purpose, had disintegrate on the spell list (for the purposes of defeating the prismatic wall), and upon entering the main lobby (and realizing that this was a switch puzzle), the person playing the sorcerer (who was a younger brother of one of my younger brother's friends) said, "I disintegrate the rest of the closed doors." I was kinda stunned by the sudden shift, although in retrospect I shouldn't have been since I gave him a bunch of disintegrates to play with, and then asked him to pick out which doors he wanted to disintegrate. A single Indian tear ran down my cheek as I told them that this was pretty much all I had prepared for them to play, and that they had pretty much smashed the entire dungeon to pieces very wantonly (they had thrown one of the other players into the prismatic wall in order to test it out, causing him to die by the fourth damage color, then fail the Fort save vs. petrification, the Will save vs. insanity, and the save vs. plane shift, which sent him to the Elemental Plane of Fire after twice-killing him). I managed to talk the player out of disintegrating everything just to humor me and actually play out the dungeon, after which he said, "fine, I'll just disintegrate the statue in the middle of the room."

The statue in the middle room was, of course, the high-level wizard who created the dungeon. He had entombed himself in a permanent statue form in order to prolong his life, and was jealously guarding the riches he had amassed over the course of his life, etc., etc. The wizard had a number of protections on himself, none of which stopped disintegrate outright (why had I not thought of ray deflection?!), so I played it straight and rolled his Fort save, which was a natural 1. He took 26d6 points of damage directly, and one extraordinarily high damage roll later, was disintegrated outright. Dungeon end.

Future incarnations of this dungeon would have a pre-gen wizard instead of sorcerer, who only has one prepared casting of disintegrate, and I cover my ears and scream at the top of my lungs whenever the party suggests sleeping ten minutes in to change up their spell list.

[Empedocles]

What were the ACs, saves, and DCs of the relevant parties? CR is descriptive, not proscriptive, and if your level 4 players have a very good chance of either making their attack rolls or roflstomping the CR 8 / 9 enemy's saves then CR is unreliable.

Next time, more communication on the villains' part. Sending isn't a pocket change spell at those levels, but signal whistles are cheap.

Communication? What do you mean? If you're saying that the villains shouldn't have been caught unawares, well...the way the PCs played I couldn't have justified them being prepared, really.

There's actually some more stuff that happens underground that more or less contributed to that, but I edited somewhat since the post was huge. If you guys are interested, I can tell you about the entire section of the adventure.

[Gavinfoxx]

Could you post the character sheets of all involved? And could you explain, in precise detail, exactly how the combats and such happened, what tactics were used, what houserules are in play, etc. etc.?

Also, isn't the first thing you do, when thinking of a character, come up with a basic idea of what to do should the party end up killing them?

That's a major point of D&D. Parties kill things. Its what they do! That is what the system is geared towards enabling.

[Sutremaine]

Communication? What do you mean? If you're saying that the villains shouldn't have been caught unawares, well...the way the PCs played I couldn't have justified them being prepared, really.
Some of the guards, after seeing how powerful the PCs were, could have transmitted a 'buff or run' message to the villains. See the Dancing Lights OOTS strip for a magical example of coded communication. A network of active Message spells might work better in a more confined environment (and has the advantage of being a free action and harder to detect and counter than an in-battle spellcasting), though you'd need some pretty strict stationing and scheduling to pull it off.


If you guys are interested, I can tell you about the entire section of the adventure.
Sure, I'm interested.

[Suddo]

Did they get to rest, like in the Big Bad's place?\

Edit:
+1 for the whole adventure. I assume the main part of it was in session 2.

[Empedocles]

Did they get to rest, like in the Big Bad's place?

Well...yes, once. But that was when they discovered the gulley dwarves and were hiding out...

It was a very complex plot.

However, in between sneaking through the underground fortress and attacking the big bad guys they didn't rest at all

[Suddo]

However, in between sneaking through the underground fortress and attacking the big bad guys they didn't rest at all

Damn they took on a CR+2 Adventure and had spells to spare to kill the Big Bad. I assume it was something similar to Save or Die stuff but at that level there aren't too many of those I'd love to hear a more detailed account.

[Empedocles]

Damn they took on a CR+2 Adventure and had spells to spare to kill the Big Bad. I assume it was something similar to Save or Die stuff but at that level there aren't too many of those I'd love to hear a more detailed account.

Well the final combat went something like this (I don't remember it perfectly). Also, I misspoke earlier. There wasn't a cleric in the party, it was a warblade. This happened maybe 2 months ago :smallredface:

THE TENSION RISES as our heroes approach the nefarious Drachma and his conniving companion Alfelias of the Ebon Robes.
Cutting that out now

The PCs had surprise, and unfortunately Drachma and Alfelias were right next to each other. See, the issue was I was positive the PCs wouldn't actually be foolish enough to attack them, and they were having a meeting, so I didn't think and put them next to each other.

The warblade had used the cosmopolitan feat to get UMD as a class skill and skill knowledge to get iaijutsu focus, so before combat he cast haste on himself with a scroll. Next, he charged Alfelias and used iaijutsu focus. He hit, and rolled a 19 on the iaijutsu focus roll and it modified to a 21 exactly...which is +3d6 damage, so 5d6 total with a greatsword.

Alfelias was a wizard, but he actually survived the attack. Unfortunately, the warblade had haste so...he used the mountain hammer maneuver and hit for 4d6 more damage. Alfelias died.

The mystic cast bull's strength on the swordsage. Then the swordsage moved in and attacked the aurak who had 76 bleeping HP.

He used the drain vitality strike which hit and the aurak failed his save. He dealt something along the lines of 15 points of damage plus the 2 points con damage, which were a further 8 points of damage. Then the wizard cast summon monster II and summoned a celestial riding dog. It actually hit with a smite but the damage was negligible.

The PCs won initiative.

The warblade recovered his maneuvers and hit with mountain hammer again with a critical as well, for something like 30 points of damage.

The swordsage initiated burning blade and hit, then tried to run away. And this was where my player had done something kind of brilliant. He provoked an attack of opportunity from the aurak on purpose, which successfully hit for negligible damage. But he used that to trigger fire riposte for 4d6 fire damage. And my gorgeous aurak died.

Actually, is that legal? Using fire riposte off an AoO? I think it probably is, but that just occurred to me...

[Gavinfoxx]

Still waiting on those character sheets!

[Sutremaine]

I could have sworn I posted a reply. Oh well.

Apart from the really good rolls, I'm not sure about the Iaijutsu Focus / Mountain Hammer combo. Can you break that turn into its component actions?

Fire Riposte off an AoO should be legal. The manoeuvre is an immediate action initiation and triggered by a successful strike by a melee or natural weapon, and there is no further text regarding the form of that attack. Therefore AoOs are not specifically excluded, and if an AoO takes the form of a melee or natural weapon attack then it satisfies the conditions for initiation of the Fire Riposte manoeuvre.

[Righteous Doggy]

Erm, if you have a warblade its 3.5. Haste gives an extra attack at your highest attack, it doesn't give you an extra standard action to use a manuever I don't think. Otherwise Time standstill would be 4 attacks long, followed by white raven tactics shenanigans.

[Empedocles]

Could you post the character sheets of all involved? And could you explain, in precise detail, exactly how the combats and such happened, what tactics were used, what houserules are in play, etc. etc.?

Also, isn't the first thing you do, when thinking of a character, come up with a basic idea of what to do should the party end up killing them?

That's a major point of D&D. Parties kill things. Its what they do! That is what the system is geared towards enabling.

I'll take a look but I'm not sure I could find them. As to with the BBEGs and my lack of foresight...the issue was really that right until the end I didn't think the PCs would attack especially since I told them their CR OoC. Both villains were meant to die in other places, in much more epicways.


Some of the guards, after seeing how powerful the PCs were, could have transmitted a 'buff or run' message to the villains. See the Dancing Lights OOTS strip for a magical example of coded communication. A network of active Message spells might work better in a more confined environment (and has the advantage of being a free action and harder to detect and counter than an in-battle spellcasting), though you'd need some pretty strict stationing and scheduling to pull it off..

The thing is...the only guards that lasted more then a round were at the very beginning on the surface, and there wouldn't have been much of a justification for them to have dancing lights since they were draconian gulley dwarves.


Erm, if you have a warblade its 3.5. Haste gives an extra attack at your highest attack, it doesn't give you an extra standard action to use a manuever I don't think. Otherwise Time standstill would be 4 attacks long, followed by white raven tactics shenanigans.

Oops.

Actually, that might not have made a difference since the wizard had yet to act on the surprise

[Empedocles]

I could have sworn I posted a reply. Oh well.

Apart from the really good rolls, I'm not sure about the Iaijutsu Focus / Mountain Hammer combo. Can you break that turn into its component actions?

Fire Riposte off an AoO should be legal. The manoeuvre is an immediate action initiation and triggered by a successful strike by a melee or natural weapon, and there is no further text regarding the form of that attack. Therefore AoOs are not specifically excluded, and if an AoO takes the form of a melee or natural weapon attack then it satisfies the conditions for initiation of the Fire Riposte manoeuvre.

Sorry I missed your 1st post :smallfrown: I feel like a bad person!

I'll take a look at the iaijutsu focus mountain hammer, but as was previously stated that shouldn't have been legal since we used the 3.0 version of haste when it happened.

I thought fire riposte was legal too (and a rather awesome move by the player).

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's the thing though. WHY would you ever think that player characters might not attack? Or that they might not do something stupid?

These are D&D player characters. They are, by definition, completely insane. These are the strongest, most capable, most intelligent, most wealthy, often the most beautiful people in a setting, and what do they do? They go into holes and KILL THINGS. Rather than living a life of luxury that they could obviously manage!

If there is a character, always, always, always have an idea of how they will react to violence from the PCs, and if you expect them to live, give them SEVERAL escape plans, and several things they can have others do to slow the PCs down while they escape.

What you did is this high level character played fair. NEVER play fair. You dont get to be level 10 by playing fair.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The warblade had used the cosmopolitan feat to get UMD as a class skill and skill knowledge to get iaijutsu focus, so before combat he cast haste on himself with a scroll. Next, he charged Alfelias and used iaijutsu focus. He hit, and rolled a 19 on the iaijutsu focus roll and it modified to a 21 exactly...which is +3d6 damage, so 5d6 total with a greatsword.

Well, part of your problem is that you're using the wrong Cosmopolitan; it was updated in the Player's Guide to Faerun to grant a +2 bonus to Sense Motive, Gather Information and Bluff checks instead.

Unless you're PLAYING a 3.0 campaign... in which case you're going by the rules, and I'm afraid I have nothing further to offer you.

[Empedocles]

Well, part of your problem is that you're using the wrong Cosmopolitan; it was updated in the Player's Guide to Faerun to grant a +2 bonus to Sense Motive, Gather Information and Bluff checks instead.

Unless you're PLAYING a 3.0 campaign... in which case you're going by the rules, and I'm afraid I have nothing further to offer you.

I was under the impression that the cosmopolitan feat from FF Campaign Setting and from Player's Guide to Faerun were actually two different feats.

Also, I don't own the Player's Guide to Faerun :smallfrown:

We were playing 3.5...hence the ToB material. However, a lot of my games do blend the two a bit :smallannoyed: That's one of my personal shortcomings with the system though.

[Kol Korran]

if you're interested i have 3 (!!) such stories to tell. all in the same campaign. i have just returned to DMing after a long time, and have decided to start at 3.5. playing in Eberron the villainous group was supposed to be themed upon The Dark Six. the party started at 2nd level.

at their first adventure the party met The Fury- a shifter were lion babrbarian of high level. it was together with part of it's tribe, and the party had some city guards. the party was supposed to be awed, to fear it, and focus on secondary targets. :smallamused:

i forgot i was dealing with players. :smallannoyed:

they focused on the Fury, who i played badly- focusing on trying to find and stop a merchant with a secret. they whittled down it's impressive hitpoints slowly, until suddenly the half giant psiwar rolled a triple crit, taking her to below 10! death touch by the necromancer, and she couldn't even be revived.

she was supposed to be a recurring villain, and had some rolesin the campaign. oh well, time to readjust...

on their second adventure they met at the end some homebrewed creation of mine- The Devourer: a sort of a barghest only made out of an elf and panther instead of a goblin and wolf, with some druidic powers. now this will put the fear into them! :smallbiggrin:

it was the most depressing defeat i've seen, they butchered it, haunted it, mutilated it slowly. :smallsigh: obviously, i had a lot to learn of villain design

so for the 3rd adventure i turned to the forums to help in designing the Keeper: a cleric of The Keeper (obviously) turned bone knight. the party were a about 6th level meeting him. at first encounter they ran. the second encounter i hoped they would run as well, and focus on secondary targets.

i don't always learn from past mistakes. they decided to duke it out.

now this turnedo ut to be one bloody amazing epic battle, going back and forth, using every possible resource, tactic, and at the end endangering their entire mission on the chance to take this guy down.:smallbiggrin:

and just as before, the half giant rolled a triple crit, taking my second in command BBEG out of the game.

oh well, time to readjust, but it was as hell worth it! one of the best moments in the campaign!

the other villains were (mostly) much better! :smallwink:

TL;DR- i lost 3 major villains on my campaign prematurely. i learned from that and it gave me a great opprtunity to challenge myself and improve the campaign. and it sure did!

[Greyfeld85]

Chalk it up to a faux pas in DMing. Even if you hadn't taken the time previously to map out any defenses for the BBEGs' lair (under the mistaken assumption that the PCs wouldn't head that way), you should have taken a break to draw up something really quick. Or possibly called the game for the night to give you some time to hammer something out.

You have to keep in mind that you're not just challenging a group of players, you're roleplaying villains. Intelligent villains. Intelligent villains who have mooks and a lair they feel is worth keeping secret. Allowing the players to traipse through their lair without any sort of alarm or pre-warning system, no traps, no mooks making a tactical retreat to set up an ambush... that doesn't sound like an 8th level wizard to me.

[Greyfeld85]

I thought fire riposte was legal too (and a rather awesome move by the player).

I'd also like to point out that enemies don't always have to take the AoO. I don't know what the Aurak's intelligence score is (don't own the book he's in), but when I'm running combat encounters, it's not uncommon for my monsters to completely forego AoOs. Either because they're intelligent enough to know not to be conned into doing what the enemy wants them to do, or because their focus is somewhere else and don't have the presence of mind to respond with the follow-up attack.

[Empedocles]

Chalk it up to a faux pas in DMing. Even if you hadn't taken the time previously to map out any defenses for the BBEGs' lair (under the mistaken assumption that the PCs wouldn't head that way), you should have taken a break to draw up something really quick. Or possibly called the game for the night to give you some time to hammer something out.

You have to keep in mind that you're not just challenging a group of players, you're roleplaying villains. Intelligent villains. Intelligent villains who have mooks and a lair they feel is worth keeping secret. Allowing the players to traipse through their lair without any sort of alarm or pre-warning system, no traps, no mooks making a tactical retreat to set up an ambush... that doesn't sound like an 8th level wizard to me.

The layer was completely mapped out. Allow me a few minutes to write up everything that happened...


I'd also like to point out that enemies don't always have to take the AoO. I don't know what the Aurak's intelligence score is (don't own the book he's in), but when I'm running combat encounters, it's not uncommon for my monsters to completely forego AoOs. Either because they're intelligent enough to know not to be conned into doing what the enemy wants them to do, or because their focus is somewhere else and don't have the presence of mind to respond with the follow-up attack.

Aurak's are like draconic mind flayers. They wouldn't forgo an AoO.

The player completely played me here. Basically, I got frustrated about the villain and made a comment about "he never even dealt damage to you" when Alfelias died. So he gave me an opportunity to take an AoO, knowing I would jump at the chance, then laughed as my BBEG burned to little pieces.

[Gavinfoxx]

And this is why you never use crit or fumble houserules!

Also, if your BBEGs can, you know, die to damage from melee, you are doing something wrong!

[Morithias]

One time I had an evil party that was seeking to revive a dead god they worshiped. In order to do so they needed to steal an artifact from a temple...that was guarded by a solar and a bunch of other angels.

Now I expected them to go all Shadowrun and spy, and sneak, and steal it like good master thieves.

No....they just kick down the door, and somehow I do not fricken know how, Kill 2 solar angels, 2 astral devas, steal the artifact, and kill about 6 more angels on the way out.

And no this wasn't at a level where you should be able to do that. This party was level 15, EIGHT levels below the Solar's CR.

[Empedocles]

One time I had an evil party that was seeking to revive a dead god they worshiped. In order to do so they needed to steal an artifact from a temple...that was guarded by a solar and a bunch of other angels.

Now I expected them to go all Shadowrun and spy, and sneak, and steal it like good master thieves.

No....they just kick down the door, and somehow I do not fricken know how, Kill 2 solar angels, 2 astral devas, steal the artifact, and kill about 6 more angels on the way out.

And no this wasn't at a level where you should be able to do that. This party was level 15, EIGHT levels below the Solar's CR.

That's harsh...

[Greyfeld85]

The layer was completely mapped out. Allow me a few minutes to write up everything that happened...



Aurak's are like draconic mind flayers. They wouldn't forgo an AoO.

The player completely played me here. Basically, I got frustrated about the villain and made a comment about "he never even dealt damage to you" when Alfelias died. So he gave me an opportunity to take an AoO, knowing I would jump at the chance, then laughed as my BBEG burned to little pieces.

A 19 Int pseudo-sorcerer takes an AoO? Yeah, I don't see that.

[Gavinfoxx]

You have to remember that lots of high cr things are only high CR if they use their supernatural abilities intelligently.

Which is a really nontrivial thing to do. Seeing as how most of the actual game part of the game is figuring out how to play characters well in combat situations.

[Empedocles]

A 19 Int pseudo-sorcerer takes an AoO? Yeah, I don't see that.

Why wouldn't he? He had no way of knowing about fire riposte. Also, your comment makes it sound like the aurak provoked the AoO which was not the case. He made an attack of opportunity.


You have to remember that lots of high cr things are only high CR if they use their supernatural abilities intelligently.

Which is a really nontrivial thing to do. Seeing as how most of the actual game part of the game is figuring out how to play characters well in combat situations.

He would've used his abilities intelligently. If he'd had a turn in which to use them. :smallannoyed:

[Greyfeld85]

Why wouldn't he? He had no way of knowing about fire riposte. Also, your comment makes it sound like the aurak provoked the AoO which was not the case. He made an attack of opportunity.

First, I can only assume that this Aurak is around the same intelligence as a mind flayer, due to your succinct description. So, under that assumption (18+ intelligence score), I also have to assume that the beast is bordering on super genius levels of intellect. Under this assumption, and also the assumption that this character is a psuedo-sorcerer (based on the premise described above), I can only come to the conclusion that in a combat situation, this creature watching a melee combat specialist suddenly take a tactical retreat after charging in and beating face would be at least slightly wary and highly unlikely to just suddenly lash out physically.

Secondly, the swordsage provoked an AoO. The monster was under no obligation to take it.

[killianh]

My Story(s):

Due to the powers of luck I've had stuff like this happen more often than I'd like...

The first time my party pulled something like this is when they all abandoned their gods to sell their souls for power (ON A BLOODY WHIM I MIGHT ADD) I gave them 2d6 hell fire at will as the bonus for the trade and told them that they had to do whatever they were told now. They agreed to this (I guess they were bored of how the good campaign was going) and went to the next town as planned. I spent all week reworking the city to accommodate the new party alignment...which was followed by an immediate razing of the city with their hell fire. Hard work and about 2 months of playable encounters and plot burned to the ground, literally.

The next time this happened was when I had them infiltrating a Thoon encampment at level 6. There job was to avoid everything and find 1 person taken to the breeding pits (which was going to have already become a slave). Earlier on in the campaign the cleric was given a wand of baleful polymorph (caster level 16) with one charge left. Now I knew the weapon was going to be a boss killer, and I was fine with that. What I was not ready for was them to storm into the elder brain room, actually make the saves, and definitely did NOT see the cleric using a grappling hook to swing onto the brain and use the wand nor escape alive after with the person they came for. I paid them back that time though by having the person end up killing the high priest and blaming the party.

as for your plot problem there is a little thing called the clone spell. Since he was a caster he very well could have used that and is still running around the country side doing whatever your plot has him doing. On top of that to make things easier do the old DM trick of fudging the numbers on his sheet. Make it so that the strongest melee guy need at least 15 on the die roll (regardless of his BAB) to hit him without flanking modifiers and a touch spells need I'd say 13 on the roll at least. Also if the party encounters him again build an encounter 2 CR above them plus the boss you don't want dead yet. It should work out that if they take the time to get close and kill him the other guys will have ripped them a fairly large new one. Don't go for a TPK, but throw your weight as DM around a little :smallamused:

[Empedocles]

First, I can only assume that this Aurak is around the same intelligence as a mind flayer, due to your succinct description. So, under that assumption (18+ intelligence score), I also have to assume that the beast is bordering on super genius levels of intellect. Under this assumption, and also the assumption that this character is a psuedo-sorcerer (based on the premise described above), I can only come to the conclusion that in a combat situation, this creature watching a melee combat specialist suddenly take a tactical retreat after charging in and beating face would be at least slightly wary and highly unlikely to just suddenly lash out physically.

Secondly, the swordsage provoked an AoO. The monster was under no obligation to take it.

yeah but why wouldn't he take the AoO...? In combat it made sense to me.

Also, an aurak is a draconic creature. Despite being powerful with magic they due have a bit of a physical bend, or at least I RP them as such.

[Greyfeld85]

He might consider not taking the AoO because he's intelligent enough to think to himself, "This guy has the upper hand, but he's backing away instead of pushing the attack. He might be baiting me."

[Empedocles]

He might consider not taking the AoO because he's intelligent enough to think to himself, "This guy has the upper hand, but he's backing away instead of pushing the attack. He might be baiting me."

Frankly, in D&D there's not all that much bad that can come out of taking an AoO....

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that there's a wizard here, so it also could've occurred to the aurak that the swordsage was backing off so the wizard could launch an AoO.

[Gavinfoxx]

He would've used his abilities intelligently. If he'd had a turn in which to use them. :smallannoyed:

I'm not just talking about what you can do when a combat encounter starts. I'm talking about what a 10th level character can do to prepare the battlefield in which he expects to be fighting so that it is much, much less likely that he will die, or be unable to take an action!

[Empedocles]

I'm not just talking about what you can do when a combat encounter starts. I'm talking about what a 10th level character can do to prepare the battlefield in which he expects to be fighting so that it is much, much less likely that he will die, or be unable to take an action!

Which would be much easier, if, of course, the aurak new the PCs were there in the 1st place :smallconfused:

[Marlowe]

WHY would you ever think that player characters might not attack? Or that they might not do something stupid?

These are D&D player characters. They are, by definition, completely insane. These are the strongest, most capable, most intelligent, most wealthy, often the most beautiful people in a setting, and what do they do? They go into holes and KILL THINGS. Rather than living a life of luxury that they could obviously manage!


See below.:smallbiggrin:

[Glaurung]

Reading your description of the BBEG fight, I thought to myself "Don't Auraks have some fire resistance? They are the uber-draconian." I had to pull out the DL Campaign setting to check...and I am surprised to find out they have none. Count me surprised...

[Greyfeld85]

Frankly, in D&D there's not all that much bad that can come out of taking an AoO....

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that there's a wizard here, so it also could've occurred to the aurak that the swordsage was backing off so the wizard could launch an AoO.

Robilar's Gambit? Karmic Strike? And obviously a multitude of martial maneuvers.

This is, of course, assuming you insist on metagaming combat instead of actually trying to roleplay the characters according to their ability scores and personality quirks.

[Empedocles]

Reading your description of the BBEG fight, I thought to myself "Don't Auraks have some fire resistance? They are the uber-draconian." I had to pull out the DL Campaign setting to check...and I am surprised to find out they have none. Count me surprised...

Indeed. This disappointed me as well haha.


Robilar's Gambit? Karmic Strike? And obviously a multitude of martial maneuvers.

This is, of course, assuming you insist on metagaming combat instead of actually trying to roleplay the characters according to their ability scores and personality quirks.

And said ability scores and quirks would lead him to take the AoO...

[Gavinfoxx]

See below.:smallbiggrin:

D'awww... I've been sigged! I don't think I've ever been sigged before! *Blushes*.

[Killer Angel]

I sat there, staring, as my players laughed hysterically.

In Krynn, our campaign setting of choice, there lay a smoldering, melted mesh of wizard and draconian, all that remained of my intricate, detailed, meticulously planned plot.


I don't care about details. Kudos to you... other DMs would have cheated to save their plot. :smallsmile:

[Gavinfoxx]

OP: What level was your BBEG Wizard, what did his build look like, any reason he didn't have Abrupt Jaunt and a craaaazy amount of initiative boosters, a bunch of alarms if enemies are coming, people to fight noisily just outside his room, etc., maybe even a few methods to act on the surprise round (Wizards get access to those...), and also, what do his weekly Divinations (Tuesday is Divination Day!) look like?

Or. Wait. Are you limiting the powers of your wizards to the sort of thing that was in the actual Dragonlance novels??

[Heatwizard]

And said ability scores and quirks would lead him to take the AoO...

After watching them bust in and cut down his wizard friend like a rocket-propelled cuisinart? I'm playing a Con 18 Warblade right now, and even I'd back off confronted with a spectacle like that.

[Cwymbran-San]

Back when i played in the Dragonlance setting, an Aurak used to burst into a searing ball of flame which attacked you for several rounds before exploding violently.

Second: i remenber a feat that lets you cast a spell as AoO (from Complete Arcane if i remember right), maybe you equip your next Aurak with that one? In case your swordsage player is going to pull that trick again.

[JadePhoenix]

*cough*Celerity*cough*

[Ernir]

ITT: Spellcaster dies, GitP rushes in to say how that should never have happened had he been played to its abilities. :smalltongue:

[JadePhoenix]

The warblade had used the cosmopolitan feat to get UMD as a class skill and skill knowledge to get iaijutsu focus, so before combat he cast haste on himself with a scroll. Next, he charged Alfelias and used iaijutsu focus. He hit, and rolled a 19 on the iaijutsu focus roll and it modified to a 21 exactly...which is +3d6 damage, so 5d6 total with a greatsword.
Someone ele already mentioned that Cosmopolitan was updated, but do you know that skill knowledge is not supposed to be used with the standard skill system?


Alfelias was a wizard, but he actually survived the attack. Unfortunately, the warblade had haste so...he used the mountain hammer maneuver and hit for 4d6 more damage. Alfelias died.
Two problems here.
One, this is a surprie round. No full attack, just a standard action. In fact, he could only pull out the iai attack with a partial charge plus Quick Draw (or a Least Crystal of Returning).
Second, even in a full attack you need a standard action to initiate a meneuver. He didn't have that, haste only gets you one extra attack.
Unless you're playing with 3.0 haste, but that was changed for a reason.


The mystic cast bull's strength on the swordsage. Then the swordsage moved in and attacked the aurak who had 76 bleeping HP.
From this description, I'm quite sure you're not using the surprise round rules as intended.


The warblade recovered his maneuvers and hit with mountain hammer again with a critical as well, for something like 30 points of damage.
He can't. You need to spend a round without initiating to regain maneuvers.


The swordsage initiated burning blade and hit, then tried to run away. And this was where my player had done something kind of brilliant. He provoked an attack of opportunity from the aurak on purpose, which successfully hit for negligible damage. But he used that to trigger fire riposte for 4d6 fire damage. And my gorgeous aurak died.
That was pretty clever indeed.


Actually, is that legal? Using fire riposte off an AoO? I think it probably is, but that just occurred to me...
It is, but plenty of other stuff wasn't. But really, a level 8 Wizard BBEG without Celerity?! You were asking for it.

[killem2]

Mine just happened actually.

The Party:

Rogue1/Wizard 3
Level 4 Cleric - (low op)
Level 4 Fighter - (2 hander), controls a riding dog, and a bear cub.
Level 3 Ranger - (2wf), controls an elven hound
Level 4 Ranger - (ranged) controls a swindle spitter
Level 4 Rogue - (mid op)
Level 4 Barbarian - (Lion Totem)
Level 3 Barbarian - (Core Only), controls a wolf cohort

vs

CR8 Barbarian Orc, with DR 1/- and DR 5/ P and S, 70 HP, pretty bad dude.

Then,
2X Level 4 rogues, 1x level 4 cleric
7x Level 3, wizard, wizard, wizard, fighter, Fighter, Fighter, Ranger
5x Bugbears, 4x Goblins, 4x Orc (mm plain ones)

These were all randomly generated and pretty strong over all.


In all my test runs, it was pretty back and forth because of the CR8 guy, well I as stupid and place im right on the edge of a lit place, just before 60ft of shadow and the party who has low light vision and dark vision characters across the board could see him, and used ranged attacks on him in surprise round.

Which, I suppose would not have been so bad, but every one of the ranged characters or those with some fashion of ranged hit, and 3 people crit, and the wizard crit with a seeking ray. That barbarian was down to almost half health before the battle started lol.

After dispatching him rather quickly the battle drug out for almost an hour and half.

I was hoping the orc would have been the last to kill, but the dude never even got to rage LOL.

[AslanCross]

Hmmm. Some pieces of advice:

1. I always expect the PCs to fight. Even if they somehow think the fight is overwhelming, they WILL fight.

2. CR is an inadequate measure. I still use it by and large for determining XP and loot, but its measure of difficulty is really vague.

3. Villainous lairs always have favorable terrain for the villains and unfavorable terrain for the PCs. As such, if the PCs busted in on my villain and his pet wizard like that, the villain would be on an elevated dais separated by a narrow catwalk, and the wizard would be on an elevated (floating, even) desk surrounded by a maze of easily toppled bookshelves and cupboards full of volatile reagents. My PCs almost never get to charge the BBEGs immediately, and often have to solve the very difficult problem of getting at them without exposing themselves.

I'm still wondering how the PCs slaughtered their way through the entire fortress and still had enough juice leftover to one-shot your BBEGs.
The misinterpretation of the action it takes to perform a martial maneuver is probably one of the more glaring culprits, though. I'm not sure how 3.0 Haste works, but he still wouldn't be able to perform the Iaijutsu strike then the mountain hammer even if he did a full attack.

[prufock]

See, the issue was I was positive the PCs wouldn't actually be foolish enough to attack them, and they were having a meeting, so I didn't think and put them next to each other.

Lesson: Never underestimate the foolishness of your PCs.

[killem2]

I have learned that your PCs can't really be expected to know the difficulty level of one encounter vs another at low levels.

High levels, i could see them, backing down from a dragon or a t rex lol.

[Tamer Leon]

Your pain. I feel it.

Running a very low-level campaign once, starting from level 1 (we ended up at level 3 by the end of it). Our party consisted of Tevor the apprentice Abjurer, Jean the Elan Psion, Garet the halfling Rogue, Zayne the Neutral Good Necromancer, Frin the Ranger, and... Daveed 'The Hammer', Aasimar Paladin of Heironius and wielder of a +1 Blessed Warhammer, the result of a random treasure roll.
Daveed's player had what could be called the luckiest fingers to ever touch a set of dice. No matter how many times he rolled in front of me, no matter which dice he used, he never rolled below a 15. Ever.
He routinely criticalled, and, since I decided at the onset of the campaign I would play with the 'exploding criticals' rule, routinely criticalled for ridiculous amounts of damage.
Every encounter I threw at the party quickly met its end, more often than not due to Daveed's mighty hammer. It got to the point that I started ramping up CR to challenge the party. Nothing worked, of course.
The most famous point came when Daveed simply annihilated a CR 9 Monster with one swing. Three consecutive natural twenties, followed by a successful comfirmation. The result being 83 damage.
From a level 3 character.

I ask you.

I couldn't even fault him for it or ask him to tone it down because it wasn't his doing, he was playing a level 3 paladin. He was just ridiculously lucky!

[Elfinor]

It is, but plenty of other stuff wasn't. But really, a level 8 Wizard BBEG without Celerity?! You were asking for it. Even if the wizard had Celerity, he couldn't have cast it. You can't use immediate actions when flat-footed.

[moritheil]

He would've used his abilities intelligently. If he'd had a turn in which to use them. :smallannoyed:

He should have used his abilities intelligently to ensure that he'd be able to have the chance to use them :P

Basically I would have ruled that there were already some buffs in place. Maybe not enough to prevent the wizard from dropping, but 4d6 fire damage is easily something that can be soaked by a resist elements or protection from elements. Fire damage is so common at lower levels that there's really no reason a BBEG wouldn't have protections up.

Other questions that come to mind:

- What was your wizard's AC? There's no reason why a level 8 BBEG shouldn't have 30+ AC if you optimize a bit (I had a level 6 BBEG cleric in one campaign with over 40 AC, built strictly by RAW, but you don't have to take it quite that far. I just wanted to make him really challenging to take down because so much of the group's damage was melee.) I have to wonder if the warblade rolled really well or if he would have hit pretty much no matter what. If the former, tough break; if the latter, you didn't study your player characters well enough. While I generally don't like DM/PC arms races, you can feel OK about optimizing a BOSS fight to ensure the BBEG doesn't die due to surprise or something.

- Where were the bodyguards, minions, mooks? If there were even a half-dozen CR 1 creatures hanging about they would have prevented the BBEG from being charged and butchered in the surprise round, by physically being in the way. There's a reason villains recruit cannon fodder: it improves their lifespan.

- Absent that, if it was in the BBEG's lair, why were there no traps lying about that would disrupt any sudden charges? It might seem a bit cheesy, but you are dealing with a genius intelligent evil mastermind; they are allowed to be crazy prepared.



ITT: Spellcaster dies, GitP rushes in to say how that should never have happened had he been played to its abilities.

Well, yeah. But more to the point, at the metagame level, a BBEG (with some plot immunity) died in 1 round, and there is a lot that a DM can do to prevent that, even independent of the spellcaster thing.

[Sutremaine]

Sorry I missed your 1st post
It never got made, probably due to accidently previewing instead of posting while in the middle of one of the server's temper tantrums.


The thing is...the only guards that lasted more then a round were at the very beginning on the surface, and there wouldn't have been much of a justification for them to have dancing lights since they were draconian gulley dwarves.
Safety whistles then. Maybe a couple of Alarm spells placed at strategic points. It wouldn't work on enemies who can either dispel the spell undetected or bypass it by leaving the Material Plane, but it would stop people from charging down the corridors and into the bad guys' tea session.




One, this is a surprie round. No full attack, just a standard action. In fact, he could only pull out the iai attack with a partial charge plus Quick Draw (or a Least Crystal of Returning).
Surprise round was used for Haste, and then the PCs won initiative. You would need to be able to draw as a free action to use IF in a charge, yes.


You need to spend a round without initiating to regain maneuvers.
Maybe he readied it twice. A very quick bit of Googling shows that this was clarified outside of the book, and inside the book you have to infer it from the way note cards for each manoeuvre are used as an aid.

It does say in the book that a manoeuvre is expended until it is recovered, but if you treat it as 'can I use this manoeuvre slot right now' and not 'can I use this manoeuvre right now' then it allows a particular manoeuvre to be readied in two different manoeuvre slots, as a wizard can prepare a particular spell in more than one spell slot.


But really, a level 8 Wizard BBEG without Celerity?! You were asking for it.
Flat-footedness issues aside, Celerity is one of the many, many Nice Things that casters get and non-casters simply don't. It's reasonable to choose to play without it.

[Andorax]

Guys, please remember that foes are SUPPOSED to die on the PC's blades and spells. This isn't a bad thing. Yes, some rules mistakes were made, but ultimately they just turned a longer plot into an epic victory right up front.

One of my first rules for BBEGs that are killed before their time is to always remember...everyone has a boss. Everyone reports to someone higher up.

In this situation, the wizard and the draconian are both working for masters of slightly greater power than themselves...masters that send them both to be at this place, at this time, to meet (and ultimately be killed by the PCs). So let these previously-nonexistant masters take over the role the recurring villains were supposed to have.

[Greyfeld85]

Guys, please remember that foes are SUPPOSED to die on the PC's blades and spells. This isn't a bad thing. Yes, some rules mistakes were made, but ultimately they just turned a longer plot into an epic victory right up front.

One of my first rules for BBEGs that are killed before their time is to always remember...everyone has a boss. Everyone reports to someone higher up.

In this situation, the wizard and the draconian are both working for masters of slightly greater power than themselves...masters that send them both to be at this place, at this time, to meet (and ultimately be killed by the PCs). So let these previously-nonexistant masters take over the role the recurring villains were supposed to have.

No, the enemies aren't "supposed" to die, they "may" die. Playing in a game where you know that you can always kill anything thrown at you is boring. Finding out that you're not strong enough, cunning enough, or prepared enough to win a certain fight is what gives meaning to gaining more power. If you're going to win no matter what level you are, or what tactics you employ, then it sort of loses all meaning.

And the specific issue with the TC's game is a matter of poor planning. That's really the point. If he takes anything away from this experience, it's to always be prepared for any eventuality the PCs may come up with.

[Mari01]

Maybe he readied it twice. A very quick bit of Googling shows that this was clarified outside of the book, and inside the book you have to infer it from the way note cards for each manoeuvre are used as an aid.

It does say in the book that a manoeuvre is expended until it is recovered, but if you treat it as 'can I use this manoeuvre slot right now' and not 'can I use this manoeuvre right now' then it allows a particular manoeuvre to be readied in two different manoeuvre slots, as a wizard can prepare a particular spell in more than one spell slot.

You can't ready a maneuver twice. The book is clear on that. If you ready 10 copies of Steely Strike (Yes I know what I just said) and then use Steely Strike, the book states you can't use Steely Strike again until you refresh it. Maneuvers aren't like spells in this instance. Either its readied, not readied, or expended.

[Righteous Doggy]

If a player does happen to kill an important named npc, I usually just replace him later in any plots with a bigger tougher new person. Its fun to build a character like that.

Whats funny, is when players do attack early or interrupt something you really wanted to do, let the villains act on that and change the encounter. Oh, you interrupted my necromancer by trying to shoot him? He doors out of there and you realize the floors and walls had a few powerful undead hiding in them who he had on gaurd waiting for people. And now he knows who you are and is actively going to interfere with you. Did you act courteously with him? Oh, he'll now treat you better, won't actively attempt to remove you, and may even help you out once or twice if he feels the compelled.

[JadePhoenix]

Surprise round was used for Haste, and then the PCs won initiative. You would need to be able to draw as a free action to use IF in a charge, yes.
It didn't look like that according to the OP's description, but it does make more sense.



Maybe he readied it twice. A very quick bit of Googling shows that this was clarified outside of the book, and inside the book you have to infer it from the way note cards for each manoeuvre are used as an aid.

It does say in the book that a manoeuvre is expended until it is recovered, but if you treat it as 'can I use this manoeuvre slot right now' and not 'can I use this manoeuvre right now' then it allows a particular manoeuvre to be readied in two different manoeuvre slots, as a wizard can prepare a particular spell in more than one spell slot.
Well, you can't. And the OP specifically says regaining anyway.



Flat-footedness issues aside, Celerity is one of the many, many Nice Things that casters get and non-casters simply don't. It's reasonable to choose to play without it.
I agree but hey, BBEG.

[JadePhoenix]

Surprise round was used for Haste, and then the PCs won initiative. You would need to be able to draw as a free action to use IF in a charge, yes.
It didn't look like that according to the OP's description, but it does make more sense.



Maybe he readied it twice. A very quick bit of Googling shows that this was clarified outside of the book, and inside the book you have to infer it from the way note cards for each manoeuvre are used as an aid.

It does say in the book that a manoeuvre is expended until it is recovered, but if you treat it as 'can I use this manoeuvre slot right now' and not 'can I use this manoeuvre right now' then it allows a particular manoeuvre to be readied in two different manoeuvre slots, as a wizard can prepare a particular spell in more than one spell slot.
Well, you can't. And the OP specifically says regaining anyway.



Flat-footedness issues aside, Celerity is one of the many, many Nice Things that casters get and non-casters simply don't. It's reasonable to choose to play without it.
I agree but hey, BBEG.


This is my 3rd time trying to post this!

[Fyermind]

My players are optimizing a lot recently (having discovered online handbooks and downloaded dozens of sourcebooks), so I have been asked (explicitly) to adapt a bit so the game doesn't get boring for them. I am also starting to pass DMing on to a player who realized she likes life behind the screen better. (!) So I've been teaching, explaining, and thinking a lot about making encounters challenging.

Here are the main ways I've learned to toughen encounters without making them overwhelming.

CR is fairly meaningless: no big surprises there

AC: Make it higher. If you think nobody will hit your monster, ever, you are doing it right. Remind the PCs of all the ways they can use teamwork to boost their accuracy if they start to get frustrated.

Damage reduction: what AC should have been. Use it whenever you can. Make DR/piercing so the archer feels helpful in one encounter, later on introduce a skeleton monster that the cleric's mace works wonders on. Generally mix it up.

Attack bonuses, these are usually good are nearly good where they are, not much needs to be fixed here really.

Damage: NEVER make a monster more challenging by vastly increasing it's ability to kill players. Nobody likes dead players, least of all you, the DM. Dead players make everyone start looking for high level NPCs and all sorts of craziness comes next.

Hit points: these usually need to be tripled. Some monsters need it more than others.

Fast healing/regeneration/in-combat healing: If you can justify it, it's really nice. I keep track of damage done to my monsters where my players can see it. It has DR? They can tell pretty quick. it has fast healing? The first time it acts while wounded everyone knows things just got serious.

Resistances and immunities and saves: There are a lot of save or die and save or suck effects out there. I ask my players not to use SoDs and they generally agree, because we all realized they are no fun. Save or sucks are a different matter. They will end an encounter if followed up on properly and make the players feel good about their strategy. Most monsters I make have one or two immunities to SoS effects that are fairly specific. This way my players don't get complacent in the same strategies.

Information, initiative, and surprise: If they players are attacking a monster in it's home (and they usually are) and they know more about the monster than it knows about them, have surprise and may win initiative, if they don't steam roll it, they are doing it very wrong. I NEVER identify monsters by name before round 1 unless they players have a really good way of knowing. They tend to go in to combat blind unless they have used divination and scouting. My monsters have home security systems. Even if they are primitive, a way of letting everyone know there are intruders means no guaranteed surprise.

Numbers: Always have at least two types of monsters, and two widely different (complementary) battle styles and challenge levels, this keeps everyone active mentally and makes smart tactics and good guesswork change battles.


A lot of what I suggested can involve going in and editing stat blocks, something I loath to do. There are instead a lot of templates I use to improve defenses without drastically changing offenses. Armor and weapons can be swapped, and feats can be as well.

As a parting note, recurring NPCs are the hardest to work with. Every time the players have a chance to meet them, you must assume the players will attack for the kill, and make a credible threat on the NPCs life. The NPC must then for some reason NOT kill the PCs, but instead successfully escape combat. Not only that but since the PCs will see the villain again, you must make a credible reason for everything it does.

For this reason my "recurring" villains do not make personal appearances until when I expect them to die. They send minions, orchestrate attacks, cast spells from afar (WAY afar) or implement threats, but never show their cowardly faces until they have nothing left and nowhere to run. Then they fight with all the power they can muster, usually surprising the PCs rather than the other way around.

[Boci]

That was pretty clever indeed.

But takes a swift action if used on yuor turn. And since they had already used their swift action for burning blade....this doesn't work either.

So in short:

1. Using the overpowered 3.0 version of hate.
2. Allowing a full attack during the surprise round
3. Allowing an immediate action to be taken as a free action

Although the bigger issue is the weakness of certain monsters and their general unprepardness.

[Mari01]

It didn't look like that according to the OP's description, but it does make more sense.



Well, you can't. And the OP specifically says regaining anyway.



I agree but hey, BBEG.

That was also illegal. You cant use a boost,counter, or strike on the same turn you recover them. Unless you're a crusader but that's special. Don't take the victory from your players, but tell them that they were doing some things incorrectly.

[Righteous Doggy]

Well... ignoring everyones talk about rules, I have seen this happen alot actually. Players are variables, you need to plan for them to do stupid things and even be hypercompetent.

A few sessions ago we met a recurring BBEG. A shadowcaster who was leading a rather large army of templated monsters and beings. He was supposed to port out to safety, however... the DM was shocked that we bullrushed him into traps(on accidnet), and the barbarian dove ontop of him, and grappled him to death. The DM's safety net was a magical amulet that ressurected you twice when you die, that he just happened to own. The BBEG was then promptly murdered twice more before he could do anything else.

And on a wizard/divine oracle I've lately I haven't done anything in the DM's plan. His responce is actually really bad though. He's been ignoring my class features and twisting my spells. My communes have gotten wrong answers, my message is always blocked, npcs ignore my unseen servants like they aren't there, scrying is blocked or wrong, teleporting results in someone tampering with my destination, and my Evasion has been ignored twice now becuase "it wouldn't make sense to dodge it".

[Gavinfoxx]

@Righteous: Have you talked to the rest of the group and the DM about these issues? The DM obviously doesn't know what to do in order to challenge you, other than break rules. Maybe you should help him come up with ideas?

[Righteous Doggy]

@Righteous: Have you talked to the rest of the group and the DM about these issues? The DM obviously doesn't know what to do in order to challenge you, other than break rules. Maybe you should help him come up with ideas?

Lol, to be perfectly honest I think he's been an awful DM. He rules every feat you take for your two weapon fighting adds an iterative attack per hit with your primary(Think duel wield reduces penalties, imp is 4 attacks, greater is 9, then 16!), he randomly says whether charges get full attacks or not, and until level 9 we hadn't even seen a magic item, and now we're drowning in artifact mcguffins. I left early after he told me my evasion didn't work on a successful roll. I was invited to help things run smoothly and I don't have much else to do on a thursday. There are 2 coreplayers, me, a guy who refuses to read the book, and a very fail munchkin. Its complicated, but I'm just a utility for the group, not the crazy gamechanging wizard. So I'm not out to be challenged, I just don't like his reactions to me using completely reasonable actions.

Its not really a crime to let players do what they want if its not gamebreaking btw. You can always introduce new npcs, challenges, and change the campaign with their actions. You probably should infact. I've always thought the fun of DM was having to react to the players sometimes insane whims and actions and the players were supposed to have fun in their sandbox.

[Nizaris]

This has been mentioned before but, yours/the player's reading of Haste is incorrect. During a full-round-attack, a Hasted creature gains an extra attack. Those two points are very important. During the surprise round each creature that can act have only a singe standard action. This would allow the Warblade to make a partial charge (up to base speed only) and make a regular basic attack, which it looks like he did. Having not spent a full-round-attack, he does not gain an extra attack. More importantly is this part from the SRD (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Haste) This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round. This means the Warblade may chose to make a FRA with a bonus basic attack or he may use a strike as a standard action, not both. Also, in order to recover it takes a swift action and then a melee attack, initiating a maneuver does not equal a melee attack RAW.

The Swordsage would have been unable to move adjacent to the aurak and use Drain Vitality in the same surprise round since he has only a move or standard action and the strike requires a standard action and it cannot be used as part of a charge. There are strikes that can be used in that way but they are specifically mentioned to be that way.

Summon Monster has a 1 round casting time, meaning it takes a full-round in order to cast the spell plus the time it takes for his initiative to roll back around, so he couldn't have casted it in the surprise round.

Hate to say it but you botched the rules which made the PCs able to bend your story over. Tell them immediately what rules were broken and you'll see they're power levels return to normal.

Fire Riposite can be used off an AoO and it takes the next turn's swift action as normal.

[LordotheMorning]

My Story(s):

I paid them back that time though by having the person end up killing the high priest and blaming the party.



You paid them back? For what? Being creative and using the resources they were given?

I agree, the whole selling your soul on a whim is stupid, annoying, and not something a real person would do, but you should have punished them for that and not the second thing that they did. I personally would have just mind-raped the PCs when they sold their souls and taken their free will, effectively making them NPCs, at which point the campaign would start over for them (that might be an extreme response, but I personally don't run evil campaigns. Point is, punish them here. Devils don't have to keep their word). I just don't get your logic. I realize it's not always that clear in the moment, but if you look at it in retrospect I think you made the mistake of rewarding them for doing something stupid, cliche, and probably not true to their characters, and then punished them for thinking outside the box and completing a mission with better results that even you anticipated.

[navar100]

I'm reminded of a time I got the DM good. It was a 2E game. I was playing a druid. The party was traveling. We knew in character that we would have to enter and cross a haunted forest. As the adventure progressed, out of character the DM was boasting of all the dangerous stuff he had planned for us in the forest, all the natural hazards and various denizens.

I would have none of that. Upon reaching the edge of the forest, I cast Giant Insect. 3E's version is Giant Vermin. In 2E the spell worked differently. Given my level, I was able to enlarge enough bees for all party members to mount and we flew over the forest, thus avoiding all the natural hazards and dangerous denizens. The rest of our trip continued on smoothly.

The DM never forgave me for that. :belkar:

[Venusaur]

So my friend, who wasn't the usual DM, was DMing to give the regular one a break. We use a lot of homebrew items, and he made lots of items of questionable balance. But the BBEG was a monk. I am the only person who understands the tiers besides my brother in the group. I was playing a cleric who was criticized for not healing enough and he was playing a rogue. He had an invisibility ring, and snuck behind the monk for a sneak attack. He got a full round in the surprise round, and 1 shotted him. He was fiated to live, and used his ridiculously powerful items that could only be used by monks for some reason. Too bad we didn't think of UMDing them.

[Greyfeld85]

I'm reminded of a time I got the DM good. It was a 2E game. I was playing a druid. The party was traveling. We knew in character that we would have to enter and cross a haunted forest. As the adventure progressed, out of character the DM was boasting of all the dangerous stuff he had planned for us in the forest, all the natural hazards and various denizens.

I would have none of that. Upon reaching the edge of the forest, I cast Giant Insect. 3E's version is Giant Vermin. In 2E the spell worked differently. Given my level, I was able to enlarge enough bees for all party members to mount and we flew over the forest, thus avoiding all the natural hazards and dangerous denizens. The rest of our trip continued on smoothly.

The DM never forgave me for that. :belkar:

lol to be fair, he sort of asked for it.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Oh boy, Players ruining the Dm's fun... Ive got one.

I actually have a player who can actually say "I don't always play in BoutsofInsanity's Games, but when I do, I wreck them". :smallwink:

I was running a one shot that I home brewed based off of "The Thing from Another World". So the PC's and other researchers find a body encased in a rock like structure, that they free and take into the base for study. Well, the thing was an evil parasitic death dealing, monster spawning machine, who was currently in a comatose state. The player above detects evil, then proceeds to Coup De Grace my creature. That wasn't so bad, I was just gonna have him come back alive anyway, so we could actually have a session and play. But that wasn't enough for the Incarnum, oh no, he then proceeds to spit acid on the corpse till it is dissolved, then he dilutes it in water, then scatters the remains around in the arctic ice (the party was at a Northern research base) thus ruining my one shot.

Luckily, I was able to think on my toes and have them be attacked by something else, thus saving the game, but still... That was really bad. The second time was for another DM. We were all new to the game and had discovered this evil cult in a city. We (the party) entered a room with an inch of blood on the floor, we cast enlarge person on the Barbarian and charged toward the obvious caster at the end of the room. Well, it was to be cinimatic encounter, so the evil caster neutralized the entire party in order except for the barbarian. Right as the barbarian was going to reach the wizard, the Dm says to the Barbarian, "your legs lock and you trip and fall". This happened all of 10 feet from the wizard. The barbarian player, smirks and says, "thanks to Enlarge person Im over ten feet tall and have forward momentum, do I fall on the wizard? Oh and I weigh way more thanks to the spell. The DM rolls some dice behind the screen and cries a little, and says you just squished the BBEG. :smallfrown: The rest of the party was :smallbiggrin:

[BoutsofInsanity]

Oh boy, Players ruining the Dm's fun... Ive got one.

I actually have a player who can actually say "I don't always play in BoutsofInsanity's Games, but when I do, I wreck them". :smallwink:

I was running a one shot that I home brewed based off of "The Thing from Another World". So the PC's and other researchers find a body encased in a rock like structure, that they free and take into the base for study. Well, the thing was an evil parasitic death dealing, monster spawning machine, who was currently in a comatose state. The player above detects evil, then proceeds to Coup De Grace my creature. That wasn't so bad, I was just gonna have him come back alive anyway, so we could actually have a session and play. But that wasn't enough for the Incarnum, oh no, he then proceeds to spit acid on the corpse till it is dissolved, then he dilutes it in water, then scatters the remains around in the arctic ice (the party was at a Northern research base) thus ruining my one shot.

Luckily, I was able to think on my toes and have them be attacked by something else, thus saving the game, but still... That was really bad. The second time was for another DM. We were all new to the game and had discovered this evil cult in a city. We (the party) entered a room with an inch of blood on the floor, we cast enlarge person on the Barbarian and charged toward the obvious caster at the end of the room. Well, it was to be cinematic encounter, so the evil caster neutralized the entire party in order except for the barbarian. Right as the barbarian was going to reach the wizard, the Dm says to the Barbarian, "your legs lock and you trip and fall". This happened all of 10 feet from the wizard. The barbarian player, smirks and says, "thanks to Enlarge person I'm over ten feet tall and have forward momentum, do I fall on the wizard? Oh and I weigh way more thanks to the spell. The DM rolls some dice behind the screen and cries a little, and says you just squished the BBEG. :smallfrown: The rest of the party was :smallbiggrin:

[big teej]

The barbarian player, smirks and says, "thanks to Enlarge person I'm over ten feet tall and have forward momentum, do I fall on the wizard? Oh and I weigh way more thanks to the spell. The DM rolls some dice behind the screen and cries a little, and says you just squished the BBEG. :smallfrown: The rest of the party was :smallbiggrin:

I'm fairly certain my exact words were "waitaminute.... how far away is the wizard?"

10 feet.

...I'm enlarged

I'M THIRTEEN FEET TALL! YOU JUST DROPPED A HALF TON BARBARIAN ON YOUR WIZARD! :smalltongue: