How much level adjustment would you give a Choker?

[Baphomet]

Looking at the stats, I'd peg it at something like this:

Choker
Type: Aberration
Size: Small (+1 AC and attack bonus, +4 for hide, -4 for grapple checks)
Racial Hit Dice: Chokers have 3 Aberration hit dice. These grant them 2d8 + 8 + (3 * Con bonus) Hit points, 6 * (2 + Int Modifier) skill points, +2 Base Attack Bonus, and the following save bonuses: +1 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +3 Will.
Move: 20 ft., 10 ft. climb
Reach: 10 ft.
Abilities: +4 Str, +4 Dex, -6 Int, -2 Cha
Natural armor: +4
Natural attacks: 2 tentacles (1d3+3)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., Quickness
Special Attacks: Improved Grab, Constrict
Feats: The Choker gains Improved Initiative as a racial bonus feat.
Skills: A choker has a +8 racial bonus on climb checks, and may always take 10 on climb checks even if rushed or threatened.

Quickness (Su): A choker may take an additional standard action or move action during its turn each round.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a choker must hit a Large or smaller opponent with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Chokers receive a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.
Constrict (Ex): A choker deals 1d3+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against a Large or smaller creature. Because it seizes its victim by the neck, a creature in the choker’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.
Favored Class: Rogue

So, obviously these guys were not intended as a player race. It's all seemingly fairly mediocre until you get down to the Quickness thing, which potentially becomes very deadly.
Oddly, they might make good monks.

[Jeraa]

Its ability score modifiers should be: +6 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, -6 Int, +2 Wis, -4 Cha. You subtract 10 from even scores, and 11 from odd scores, to get the ability modifiers.

It also gets Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.

The LA would be high, because of the Quickeness ability. A PC race that gets an extra standard or move action every round is broken, especially if it is a caster.

[Empedocles]

Because of quickness...+6 or 7 at least. Honestly, I'd advise against even playing one with quickness though. Take it away and it'd be right at about +3 I think, maybe +2.

[Seerow]

Yeah I'd straight up not allow it, or at least slap on another 5 or 6 levels of LA to make it so anyone trying to use it will end up being useless. I generally don't like making monster races with much LA, but a free standard action every round is one of those things that sets off alarm bells and needs to be made so hard to use that nobody wants to bother. That means making the LA high enough that it can't be bought off.

[Baphomet]

How much would it change things if I threw in a clause that their freaky hands are incapable of performing the somatic components of spells? Alternately, change quickness to allow only a move action or a tentacle attack.

I did water down the ability scores some from the base creature. Base LA on the numbers I listed.

[Seerow]

How much would it change things if I threw in a clause that their freaky hands are incapable of performing the somatic components of spells? Alternately, change quickness to allow only a move action or a tentacle attack.

I did water down the ability scores some from the base creature. Base LA on the numbers I listed.

Casters can get around needing somatic components. The answer is still "No, don't do it" or "Really expensive".

If you put some sort of addendum saying "No you really can't use this race for casting anything at all ever" then you're getting into the realm of "I just want an extra standard action on my melee character and this seems like a way to get it" in which case I say just homebrew a class feature that does it that. Preferably at high enough level to be out of reach for any decent caster.

[moritheil]

Do note that the Constrict on a choker also silences an enemy spellcaster, which is not automatically the case for standard grappling.

[lunar2]

change quickness to be "1 extra attack at your highest base attack bonus as part of a full attack. this does not stack with other means of gaining extra attacks, such as haste or flurry of blows".

[TuggyNE]

I suggest making a Lesser Choker and a Greater Choker; the latter would have horrendous LA and the Quickness ability unmodified, and the former would have a vastly-stripped down version (or none at all), allowing it to drop to perhaps a low +3 LA or a high +2 (depending on details).


Also note that the three HD give two empty feat slots.

[Roguenewb]

Quickness as written can only otherwise be obtained by players at level 15 (IIRC) from swiftblade, only while a spell is on, and only after paying so steep costs. So...I wouldn't get eager to allow it.

[Ravens_cry]

Quickness as written can only otherwise be obtained by players at level 15 (IIRC) from swiftblade, only while a spell is on, and only after paying so steep costs. So...I wouldn't get eager to allow it.
Indeed. This not a player ability for practically any level.
I don't care too much about balance, and in the right campaign, I might even let a player play one, but for the most part this is LA: NO to me.

[Seerow]

I suggest making a Lesser Choker and a Greater Choker; the latter would have horrendous LA and the Quickness ability unmodified, and the former would have a vastly-stripped down version (or none at all), allowing it to drop to perhaps a low +3 LA or a high +2 (depending on details).


Also note that the three HD give two empty feat slots.


If you take quickness away completely, I'd say you can get away with LA+0. After all, it's 3 racial hit dice to get a small creature with inherent reach (cool but not game breaking), and an ability to improve grappling (which he sucks at because he's small).

Leaving quickness in as basically an always on haste effect might bump that up to a +1 LA, but maybe not, 3 racial hit dice is still a pretty big hit, and a bonus attack on a full round action isn't that big of a deal even at low levels, and at high levels it doesn't stack with some of the most common buff effects out there.


It only really needs an LA for the quickness ability. Unfortunately bonus standard actions are so ridiculous that it does need an absurd LA just so it doesn't fall into the hands of low level characters who can take better advantage of that than "I attack"

[Ravens_cry]

Quickness is NOT Haste, it's more like 3.0 Haste, as in, Cast-Two-Spells-A -Round-Without-Quicken, Haste.

[Rubik]

Do note that spellcasters can get all of that with a casting of a spell and a single feat (whether Assume Supernatural Ability or Metamorphic Transfer). Giving a huge LA is counterproductive because it only hurts the noncasters.

[edit] And with Shapechange they don't even need the feat.

[Seerow]

Quickness is NOT Haste, it's more like 3.0 Haste, as in, Cast-Two-Spells-A -Round-Without-Quicken, Haste.

I'm pretty sure everyone is aware of that. We are suggesting changing it to act like haste (ie give a bonus attack on a full attack that doesn't stack with other stuff) so you can play a nerfed choker without an outrageous LA.

[mucco]

Small suggestion: you as a player really really don't want to play one either. You can pretty much safely assume that there will be a LA for this. But even LA +1 is horrible. Why? Let's see what a Cleric can do with this:

Level 5: you have 4d8, BAB 2, saving throws +3/+1/+5, and a couple of spells prepared. You already gave up 9ths barring cheese. You have zero HP. You have zero spellcasting. You have zero BAB. You are dumb as a rock, if quite a bit stronger than the average, and possibly not capable of speech (need Int 6 for it, IIRC).

Level 13: you have one less HD than a straight cleric, you're casting Raise Dead and the other has Holy Word and Ethereal Jaunt. You haven't caught up with BAB and saving throws, you will never pass any SR or dispel check.

Martial classes are a bit better, especially ToB which thrives on standard actions. But even at LA +1, you're essentially spending four low BAB, low saving throw levels, no class feature levels. Worth it?

And to even think about a moderate LA, say +3. Level 7 with 4 HD? You're a dead man walking. Yeah, you have two standard actions and they won't be enough to keep you alive. Oh, LA +6? Yup, exactly.

By the way, LA +2 for me. It is punitive enough already, and a moderate LA might even make it playable.

[NichG]

LA:-.

My reasoning is different depending on the type of campaign.

For anything below a very high-optimization game:
Just because a Wizard can use tricks to Shapechange into one and get Quickness doesn't mean that it should have a low LA. It means that in all likelyhood the DM should watch out for the Wizard polymorphing into it and restrict that activity given the power level of the campaign. 3.5's stability does not benefit from things that break action economy even more than already happens.

High Op game: You're playing in a game that allows Synchronicity cheese, Celerity + Immunity to Daze tricks, and the Metamorphic Transfer trick. All of these are tricks that in some sense the characters have to build for and work for. The appeal of the game is finding these tricks and cramming them into a build. Modifying the rules to make it easier by just having a low-LA option that simply does it outright takes the fun out of it. Its sort of like saying 'I'm going to play a high-op game. Everyone is going to have Wish without xp costs via X, Y, or Z, so I'm just going to remove the xp costs of Wish and start everyone out with an infinite WBL and any pre-epic magic items they want.'

Sans Quickness, I'd concur with LA 0 due to the RHD. You could get some of the aspects of Quickness by giving it a permanent non-magical 3.5 Haste effect and Spring Attack as a free feat, which I do think would be worth +1 LA, especially given that LA buyoff is such a common option.

[FMArthur]

You can bring almost anything down to LA+0 for easy PC use if you're conservative enough with abilities. It takes careful management because you have to make sure the creature's flavor survives to reasonable completeness, but it's sort of a fun challenge. Choker's Quickness for example could easily be turned into a very limited uses/day ability and/or be given a specific list of available actions for it; manage it like Synad Multitask. Other options are having it governed by cooldowns if you don't like dailies, and having some racial abilities split off into specific racial feats.

You could brew something up pretty easy for use, or as something to work upwards from at increased LA. Actually I'll just do it to save it somewhere in my notes anyway. I like doing these.

2
Domesticated Choker
2Racial Traits
2 +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma: Chokers are unusually strong for their size but generally lacking in wits.
Small size: As a Small creature, a choker gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, a –4 size penalty on grapple checks, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but it must use Small weapons and its lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character.
Aberration: Among other effects, chokers are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as Charm Person or Dominate Person.
Darkvision: Chokers can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight. Chokers can function just fine with no light at all.
Speeds: Choker base land speed is 20 feet. Chokers also have a climb speed of 10 feet.
+8 Climb: Chokers receive a +8 racial bonus to Climb checks and can always take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.
Choker Slowness: Chokers are frighteningly quick when the situation demands it, but it takes great effort and they spend the most of the day moving slower to conserve energy. Chokers move 10 feet slower than normal in all modes of movement they possess or acquire (this is already factored into land and climb speeds) - this aversion to excessive movement even translates to a -6 Ride check penalty.
Natural Weapons: Chokers can use their long hands as tentacle attacks. The tentacles' base damage is 1d3.
+4 Grapple: Chokers are unusually good grapplers for their size, and used grabs to hold and kill prey in the wild.
Constrict (Ex): Whenever a choker succeeds on a Grapple check versus a creature up to two size categories larger than itself, it deals automatic tentacle damage.
Choker Quickness (Su): Chokers are able to move with supernatural quickness in short bursts. Twice per day, a choker can make an extra standard attack action or grapple attempt on its turn, completely independently from whatever other actions it performs that round. The choker gains one additional usage of this ability for every four hit dice it possesses.

Alternatively, the choker can spend two uses of this ability to instead take a standard action to do whatever it chooses with it. Regardless of which option is taken, the choker may use this ability no more than once per round.
Automatic languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Undercommon, Elven, Dwarven, Goblin
Favored Class: Commoner. Chokers protest the use of obtuse cliche-enforcement mechanics in games.


2Racial Feats
2 Choker Flexibility [Racial]
Prerequisite: Race: choker
Benefit: The tentacle attacks granted by your race now possess 10-foot reach.
Special: This feat can be chosen as a Fighter Bonus Feat.
[b]Choker Improved Grab [Racial]
Prerequisite: Race: choker
Benefit: The choker can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity if it hits a creature up to two sizes larger with a tentacle attack. If it succeeds, a grapple is established and the choker can deal its Constrict damage.

In addition, a creature grappled by a choker cannot speak, preventing the use of spells' verbal components, among other things.
Whocares: This feat can be chosen as a Fighter Bonus Feat.
[B]Enhanced Choker Quickness [Racial]
Prerequisite: Race: choker, character level 3
Benefit: You gain an additional use of the Choker Quickness racial ability.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Its effects stack.