Beguiler vs Dread Necromancer

[theduck]

Hi all,

So a friend of mine is planning on starting a Forgotten Realms campaign soon, and while we have the divine side of things well covered, we are in need of arcanist, and I am kinda bored of playing wizards and sorcerers. Anyway, for those of you who have played the beguiler and/or the dread necromancer, which is more fun? I'm pretty sure I make either one work, and I have enjoyed playing a beguiler at low levels (5ish, I think) but it's spell list at higher levels looks fairly... limited, and have actually just learned about the dread necro (though I kind of think I might not want to go the command undead army route).


Also.. first post, so yay

[Yorrin]

Welcome to the playground!

Here's the thing: we had this thread a week or two ago and the general consensus was that the two classes are equally powerful for those that like their respective styles of play. So if you like Illusions- play a Beguiler. If you like Necromancy- play a Dread Necromancer.

Being more of a Necro guy myself I would give a sadly incomplete assessment of the Beguiler, but I've heard from people who like what they do that it's a fun class. And as a Necromancy buff I have large amounts of fun with a Dread Necromancer. So yeah- just choose which school of magic you like better.

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you're still unsure of which to play or have no real preference, might the 'official' fluff of those class in the Realms help?

Beguiler: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070214

Dread Necromancer: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070509

[sonofzeal]

If you're not going to focus on minions, Dread Necromancers loose a lot of their power. They're also more likely to get hostile reactions from NPCs. On the other hand, Beguilers can end up on the wrong end of the stick against opponents immune to mind-affecting effects, like Vermin, Undead, Constructs, etc.

I'd play a Dread Necromancer in a combat-oriented game, and Beguiler in an RP-oriented game.

[gallagher]

a bonus to beguiler is that they also can support in infiltration, with many rogue-like characteristics.

be a whisper gnome and get into shadow conjuration as a beguiler, you know also get to blast things

[Doc_Pippin]

I'd play a Dread Necromancer in a combat-oriented game, and Beguiler in an RP-oriented game.

Completely 110% right the dread necro leads to the proverbial super army, he runs off of cha so both Leadership and undead leadership with improved cohort and extra follower feats, matched with his class abilities and items for boosting HD limit its built around that. (Dirty trick make your cohorts Thrall-herds for an ever growing army) This is the classes primary function and its difficult to sway to far away from being surrounded by undead without asking to be smote upon the ruin.

Beguiler is an almost perfect RP only class and I enjoy getting into mindbender with it.

But for an arcane-like mix without to much specialization I recommend Psionic or incarnum

Other possiblities for arcane are archivist, warmage, binder, bard(With sublime cord= uber Archbard)

Personally my favorite arcane build is Bardor sorc /Paladin of freedom/spellsword+if bard sublime cord

[Doc_Pippin]

Also before Bard bashing begins...

look up sublime chord, fochlucan lyrist,Warchanter, and seeker of the song...

then check out the dragonfire inspiration builds,

I.E
FEATS:song of the heart, words of creation, Black dragon heritage, dragonfire inspiration
ITEMS:Badge of valor, vest of legends, Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade, Canaith Mandolin
SPELLS:boost inspiration, harmony

its insane everyone gets +12d6 acid damage on every attack and you can still cast spells

[sonofzeal]

I should also mention my #1 favorite full-caster class: the Evangelist, from Dragon Mag #311. It's a spontaneous Cleric variant that works much like a Sorcerer, except you get more and more domains as you level and every domain's spells get added to your Spells Known. This means that Evangelists get a quite substantial array of spell options for spontaneous casting... and that choice of deity makes a huge difference from Evangelist to Evangelist.

This effectively makes Evangelist a "speciality caster", with the specialty defined by what God you choose. If you're looking for a specialty caster, then, I think you'll find few options with the sheer flexibility and specificity of vision that the Evangelist has.

[Righteous Doggy]

There are more uses for undead than a ravaging army aren't there? They can do backbreaking labor in the background, or hold the fort. I'm certain you can find more for them to do than swarm anyone you don't like.

Personally I like the Beguiler better, but it just depends on the campaign and the adventure. In a dungeon or socially heavy group I'd jump on the beguiler for all those neat tricks. In one with more open combat or armys I might consider the dread necromancer, but I'm not a fan of being evil.

[Soranar]

Bard bashing? If there's one class these boards love (besides factotum) it's bard.

Dread necromancers benefit a lot from arcane disciple (to obtain desecrate) but, as mentioned before, if you're not going for the undead army you should turn your attention to another class, honestly the whole class is built around creating an undead army so you'd be wasting the main class feature.


Beguilers are very powerful, especially the shadowcraft mage kind. But even those that don't adopt that route can manage do be effective. Dealing with creatures immune to mind affecting spells does become problematic though. You'll want to find a way to expand your spell list if you go high enough in levels.

[Fable Wright]

Dread Necromancers can make quite capable melee characters, actually. Grab Arcane Disciple (Anything with Divine Power) and you suddenly have a character with a Fear Aura, the ability to throw out negative levels like candy by just touching people, save or take disease by touching people, some of the most lethal touch range attacks in the game (Avasculate, anyone?), DR/Magic and Bludgeoning, a small range burst that heals you and hurts your enemies, Magic Jar so you don't actually have to risk your life killing everyone, and spells one grade above what everyone else has (via Versatile Spellcaster). Plus some of the best debuffs in the game as well. Oddly enough, almost all the class features support going melee (such as bonuses to will saves against mind-affecting due to the problem of Dominated fighters), resistance to sneak attacks/crits, combat-oriented familiars, infinite self-healing, and yet people usually just see their 8th level ability and go "Well, it's definitely a hordemaster class." Kinda strange, really.

Plus, if you don't actually want to melee, you can still do the debuffing everyone expects of the party necromancer, but whatever floats your boat.

[Doc_Pippin]

There are more uses for undead than a ravaging army aren't there? They can do backbreaking labor in the background, or hold the fort. I'm certain you can find more for them to do than swarm anyone you don't like.

Personally I like the Beguiler better, but it just depends on the campaign and the adventure. In a dungeon or socially heavy group I'd jump on the beguiler for all those neat tricks. In one with more open combat or armys I might consider the dread necromancer, but I'm not a fan of being evil.

I agree with the other purposes of the undead but necromancy is not EVIL 100% of the time, evil is subjective, perhaps your character believes that he is simply "recycling" the remains and is using them to further his cause of bringing peace to a nation hellbent on war

[Righteous Doggy]

I agree with the other purposes of the undead but necromancy is not EVIL 100% of the time, evil is subjective, perhaps your character believes that he is simply "recycling" the remains and is using them to further his cause of bringing peace to a nation hellbent on war

lol, morality debate is probably best put in another thread. Yes, the act of creating undead is pretty vile. The use can be good, if morose. All up to the players and DM. Though I wouldn't bring them around any churches of Pelor anytime soon.
It is a funny image though, undead cleaning parks, setting up libraries, keeping a courtyard clean rather than ravaging a countryside. And neither did they know wraiths were secretly stealing valuables and their cemetary was graverobbed everynight by the same necromancer and her minions, Bwahaha~

[Doc_Pippin]

lol, morality debate is probably best put in another thread. Yes, the act of creating undead is pretty vile. The use can be good, if morose. All up to the players and DM. Though I wouldn't bring them around any churches of Pelor anytime soon.
It is a funny image though, undead cleaning parks, setting up libraries, keeping a courtyard clean rather than ravaging a countryside. And neither did they know wraiths were secretly stealing valuables and their cemetary was graverobbed everynight by the same necromancer and her minions, Bwahaha~

Agreed, I always like the idea of a nice quiet town where everyone helps everyone and its just so perfect... except everyone is undead... I enjoy Dread necro and the necropolitan and spell stitched templates instead of cookie cutter MM stuff. But that takes a flexible DM and a bit of fanagling because sentient undead can equal broken games

[Amphetryon]

lol, morality debate is probably best put in another thread. Yes, the act of creating undead is pretty vile. The use can be good, if morose. All up to the players and DM. Though I wouldn't bring them around any churches of Pelor anytime soon.
It is a funny image though, undead cleaning parks, setting up libraries, keeping a courtyard clean rather than ravaging a countryside. And neither did they know wraiths were secretly stealing valuables and their cemetary was graverobbed everynight by the same necromancer and her minions, Bwahaha~

Eberron put an interesting spin on that whole trope, really. With a country ravaged by the losses of war, the only way one country could raise an army sufficient to hold of the enemy and save the remaining populance and their own sovereignty was to Raise an army. Desperate times, etc.

[Andorax]

I should also mention my #1 favorite full-caster class: the Evangelist, from Dragon Mag #311. It's a spontaneous Cleric variant that works much like a Sorcerer, except you get more and more domains as you level and every domain's spells get added to your Spells Known. This means that Evangelists get a quite substantial array of spell options for spontaneous casting... and that choice of deity makes a huge difference from Evangelist to Evangelist.

This effectively makes Evangelist a "speciality caster", with the specialty defined by what God you choose. If you're looking for a specialty caster, then, I think you'll find few options with the sheer flexibility and specificity of vision that the Evangelist has.

Interesting that you should mention the Evangelist, with an avatar that has the symbol of the Sovereign Host on his shield.

Yes, I have an Evangelist who, next level, will take her first level of Sovereign Speaker. I'm already looking forward to/dreading it. It's even more interesting because she also get her hands on the Dragon Magazine articles on the Saintly and Sinner domains (14 more domains to play with, along with the proper Eberron associations in the articles).

[SynissterSyster]

Both classes have the same pitfall yet same coolness, imo, and that is their spell lists. The pitfall is how limited the lists are. Like the warmage they need ways to add more spells to the lists. So things like Arcane Disciple, Fiend Blooded, etc. are great as you can add flexability to those lists.

@DMofDarkness: I have to respectfully disagree with you. Dread Necro shouldn't be melee at all. You have minions to do the fighting for you. I see where you are going but still getting up in melee is not your strong suit at all. Also most dread necro are better off being a necropolitian then anything else.

[Roguenewb]

I would be cautious of playing pure Beguiler in anything short of a hyper-mega-all-NPC-no-monster-RP-all-the-time-what's-a-sword? campaign above level 8. The sheer list of things that end up resistances is just...incredible. However, a lot of my characters splashing some casting end up with beguiler as the splash. Can I recommend Beguiler4/Spellthief1/Daggerspell Mage (with master spellthief of course). This build is very good at problem solving, can do some damage, and can steal spells at like a -1 behind a full thief! A lot of fun....

[Toliudar]

I've played beguilers in combat-heavy games, and have always found ways to contribute. Fog, confusion and illusions against mooks, hesitate against solo opponents, glitterdust against undead. And one of these games featured a vampire BBEG.

Granted, at very high levels, you may need to add in a few tricks to add spells or utility, but at that point your skill points are so insanely high that you have several options to be superheroic just with your skills.

[Fable Wright]

Both classes have the same pitfall yet same coolness, imo, and that is their spell lists. The pitfall is how limited the lists are. Like the warmage they need ways to add more spells to the lists. So things like Arcane Disciple, Fiend Blooded, etc. are great as you can add flexability to those lists.

@DMofDarkness: I have to respectfully disagree with you. Dread Necro shouldn't be melee at all. You have minions to do the fighting for you. I see where you are going but still getting up in melee is not your strong suit at all. Also most dread necro are better off being a necropolitian then anything else.

The class isn't on the traditional melee chassis, I'll admit. However, Magic Jar. And with that, I'll let this rest.

[deuxhero]

Eh, the Beguiler weakness to mindless stuff is overrated. Illusions are very effective against mindless foes as they can't rationalize the X tha appeared out of nowhere is an illusion short of interacting with it to get a save.

Mind effecting immune outsiders with permanent true seeing ARE an issue though.

[theduck]

Thanks all for the responses... after finding out more about the rest of the party (which contains a favored soul, a good cleric, and a paladin) I think a beguiler might be an easier fit. Though, that said, I think if it goes long enough, I may try jumping into Fiend Blooded to grab enervation and orb of fire...

[deuxhero]

Your party makeup sounds like it won't have issues dealing with [evil] outsiders, though the neutral (and possibly [good]) ones may kick your asses.

[Chronos]

But why would you be fighting good outsiders with that party anyway?

[Righteous Doggy]

But why would you be fighting good outsiders with that party anyway?

Lawful stupid outsiders/paladins do interfere with your lives on occasion, or Eladrin or Fey might for some alien reason or entertainment. People seem to think good means innocent... Look at how many people your pally buddy slays a day!(wait, bad example. good aligned wizard... yeah, that works)