Wilders - What's the deal?

[Kuulvheysoon]

Why would you play a Wilder as opposed to a Psion? With the release of Complete Psionic, a Psion 5/Anarchic Initiate 10 is easily the equal of a Wilder in the Overchannel/Wild Surge department.

It seems like the only advantage they have over a psion is the increased hit die, Elude touch and the armor/weapon proficiencies.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sometimes you don't want the most powerful class?

[Shadowknight12]

Why would you play a Wilder as opposed to a Psion? With the release of Complete Psionic, a Psion 5/Anarchic Initiate 10 is easily the equal of a Wilder in the Overchannel/Wild Surge department.

It seems like the only advantage they have over a psion is the increased hit die, Elude touch and the armor/weapon proficiencies.

Chuck it up to another of WotC's missteps. You were originally supposed to play them for all that plus the overchannel/wildsurge bit. Psions were overall weaker, but had some powers Wilders didn't have (and higher PP, if I recall correctly).

[jaybird]

Because the most fun characters I ever play are always Nuclear Dan types? :smallamused:

[Khosan]

The Wilder isn't really much of a caster, especially in comparison to the Psion. There's really no contest. It's like the difference between a Wizard and a Sorcerer, if Sorcerers only got a new spell every other level.

On the other hand, the Wilder can make a pretty decent fighter. 9 fewer powers known than the Psychic Warrior at 20, but vastly more PP, a much larger variety of powers available, quicker access to some of the more useful powers, actual access to some of the more powerful powers and a handful of minor benefits from class features (like Elude Touch).

[Dimers]

Also, if you want to be Cha-based instead of Int-based. I know it's mechanically superior for just about any character to have more Int than Cha, but your character concept may not support it.

[Shadowknight12]

Also, if you want to be Cha-based instead of Int-based. I know it's mechanically superior for just about any character to have more Int than Cha, but your character concept may not support it.

The only two stats that are in every way superior to the others are Dex and Con. The others can be rendered useless if what they intend to do can be safely disregarded. Strength is useless if the character is not planning on meleeing or carrying heavy things. Charisma and Wisdom are useless if the character is not planning on focusing on Cha- or Wis-based skills. Intelligence can be useless if the character is not planning on focusing on Int-based skills AND has no use for skill points since there is no skill the party truly needs (consider a party with 3 skillmonkeys and 1 knowledge-monkey).

[Answerer]

The Wilder basically isn't as good as it was intended to be (or the Psion was better than it was intended to be), since yes, you are correct: the Psion is basically better in every way.

Which is a shame, because the concept of a Wilder is really cool. Unfortunately, self-harming overpowered stuff is often bad game design, since either there's little to nothing you can do to mitigate the drawbacks and they're too much to make the power useable (like Wild Surge), or they're something you can ignore (or aren't too bad in the first place), and you've got an overpowered ability in return (like a Wizard's spells per day).

[Kuulvheysoon]

The Wilder basically isn't as good as it was intended to be (or the Psion was better than it was intended to be), since yes, you are correct: the Psion is basically better in every way.

Which is a shame, because the concept of a Wilder is really cool. Unfortunately, self-harming overpowered stuff is often bad game design, since either there's little to nothing you can do to mitigate the drawbacks and they're too much to make the power useable (like Wild Surge), or they're something you can ignore (or aren't too bad in the first place), and you've got an overpowered ability in return (like a Wizard's spells per day).

I seem to recall there being a feat or an item or something that would help mitigate Wild surging - source?

Another possibility is to just straight outlaw CPsi, but there's actually some good stuff in there (Ardent, Soulbow, etc...)

EDIT: Thinking on it, they'd make superior Psigishes (Paladin2/Wilder X) as well.

[Answerer]

You can do some to mitigate it, but the possibility of losing a turn is so devastating that even then you'll find yourself almost-never using Wild Surge... at which point you'll wonder why you're not just a Psion.

[Darth Stabber]

Wilder actually has 3/4 BAB in addition to the better hit die. This makes it almost a gish in a box, but really it just makes them good ray spammers.wildsurge is fairly mitigateable. If you have a move action to burn you can use quick recovery to get a save to ebd the stun (which is will, ie your good save), and endure enervation allows you to halve the PP loss. If you add expanded knowledge: hustle (which is a good feat use anyway, especially since the educated wilder varient came into existence), you can burn your swift action to get your move back. Wild surge isn't that hard to work with.

[AslanCross]

The Pathfinder version has some improvements. I can't say if it's much much better, but at least Perfect Surge is awesome.

[sonofzeal]

Better HD, better BAB, better skills, better proficiencies, better class features...

Wilder is a Psion-lite. If their manifesting was as good as a Psion's, the class would be obviously unfair. Instead, they're really good at a small number of powers, and have a better chassis so they aren't quite as dependent on their powers for day to day life.

In practice this makes them inferior since magic/psi is so flexible, but they do make good gishes and blasters, and with Expanded Knowledge they can be pretty devastating in some other areas as well.

I don't think the class is bad. High T3 / Low T2 depending on your definition, but that's hardly a major strike against.

[Zaq]

Wild Surge is a cool ability. Very high-risk, high-reward. Yeah, Anarchic Initiate gives you almost the same thing, but Wild Surge comes online a lot earlier.

Now, I'll be the first to tell you that it's hardly the most optimized thing. The downsides are pretty steep. But you really can make some cool and flashy effects with it, and perhaps more importantly, you can do it before anyone else can. This is especially true for augmentations that don't just increase numbers, but instead add additional functionality. A Wilder's Astral Constructs can be beautiful, lemme tell you.

That said, yeah, a Psion is pretty much undeniably better. I don't think anyone's going to dispute that. Even so, I can see the appeal of a Wilder, even if I don't think I could play one for an extended period of time. I did have fun with one in a one-shot a long time ago (slap a few EKs on there for some PsyWar tricks and they make awesome gishes), but yeah, even the Educated Wilder non-variant (honestly, NOT taking it should be considered the ACF, kinda like Spirit Lion Totem) is just going to struggle to keep utility out there.

I've seen them played to grand effect, though. If you're actually OK just cutting loose and surging for all you're worth, consequences be damned, you CAN make enough of an impact that even losing a round isn't necessarily a death sentence. If you're very calculating, only cautiously surging for a point or two here and there and living in fear of psychic enervation, the Wilder looks a lot less cool than it is. I'm fully aware that it's not optimal to just let 'er rip most of the time, but if flashy effects are your game, the Wilder can deliver.

[FMArthur]

The BAB and HD increases really fail to deliver as selling points for the Wilder as a more durable or melee-friendly Psion. Combos like Share Pain + Vigor are more painful to pull off with no dang powers, Egoist gish powers can only be gotten multiple levels later, and Control Body only works off of Intelligence. Having 1 more AB per four levels means pretty much nothing for making a class gishy. Slayer and Ardent just noisily crash the gish Wilder's party anyway.

I really don't like what happened with the Wilder. Lots of classes are bad, and the Wilder isn't one of them, but very few get so thoroughly and completely outclassed right from the moment of inception. At least most bad classes still have their unique selling points. The Wilder's situation would be comparable to Healer being put into the PH a few pages after Cleric.

[Kalirren]

Wild Surge is a cool ability. Very high-risk, high-reward. Yeah, Anarchic Initiate gives you almost the same thing, but Wild Surge comes online a lot earlier.

Gotta second this. At early levels Wild Surge is amazing. Straight Wilder 5 Wildsurging Summon Astral Construct was one of the most reasonably optimized PCs I've ever seen at that level.

[eggs]

Wilder's way better at surging, and surging is a pretty big deal. It translates into a lot of extra PP, and a lot more brute force behind it. For the easy illustration, a level 10 Wilder's astral constructs can hit CR9 without too much difficulty. Otherwise, the Wilder's PP boost is enough for it to manifest whatever a level-equivalent psion is manifesting, but do it as a swift action (link it to a hustle or).

Not to mention that "more power!" isn't always a goal even in mechanics-oriented class decisions. Personally, I prefer Wilder to Psion because of its more restrictive power selection (but with various class abilities to keep it in the same game).

[Essence_of_War]

Why would you play a Wilder as opposed to a Psion? With the release of Complete Psionic, a Psion 5/Anarchic Initiate 10 is easily the equal of a Wilder in the Overchannel/Wild Surge department.

It seems like the only advantage they have over a psion is the increased hit die, Elude touch and the armor/weapon proficiencies.

1) The elude touch class feature is actually pretty neat, and somewhat hard to replicate at least w/o significant limitations. Don't believe me? Check out the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). Having a good touch AC is ALWAYS nice.

2) Cha synergy is nice. It can play well thematically and mechanically with paladins, hexblades, crusaders, sorcerers, suel arcanamachs, etc etc.

Combined with the hit die, BAB, skill point improvements (educated wilder ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)), they can make useful, straightforward psi classes for players who want to play uncomplicated characters who can still contribute, or they can pair off nicely with any manner of cha synergies to make a psi-gish.

[moritheil]

You can do some to mitigate it, but the possibility of losing a turn is so devastating that even then you'll find yourself almost-never using Wild Surge... at which point you'll wonder why you're not just a Psion.

Obviously, because you wanted high touch AC and Cha as a primary stat, so you could take that dip in Paladin and be a fighter/mage styled build that turns into a flying hydra with 12 attacks! :smallwink:

[moritheil]

I don't think the class is bad. High T3 / Low T2 depending on your definition, but that's hardly a major strike against.

I'm going to have to disagree slightly in that low T2 seems to imply that they're worse than sorcerers, and I think the reverse is true: sorcerers are a little worse than wilders. Wilders are better blasters and can do roughly as well at save-or-lose shenanigans.

Assuming, of course, your DM doesn't mind you using psychic reformation liberally. :smallwink:

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm going to have to disagree slightly in that low T2 seems to imply that they're worse than sorcerers, and I think the reverse is true: sorcerers are a little worse than wilders. Wilders are better blasters and can do roughly as well at save-or-lose shenanigans.

Assuming, of course, your DM doesn't mind you using psychic reformation liberally. :smallwink:

But sorcerors have more versatility (assuming your DM cracks down on Psychic Reformation shenanigans), which is a prime factor in determining Tiers.

So it is possible to build a good non-AC Wilder from low to mid levels?

[sonofzeal]

I'm going to have to disagree slightly in that low T2 seems to imply that they're worse than sorcerers, and I think the reverse is true: sorcerers are a little worse than wilders. Wilders are better blasters and can do roughly as well at save-or-lose shenanigans.

Assuming, of course, your DM doesn't mind you using psychic reformation liberally. :smallwink:
A Sorcerer, over their career, gains 43 spells - and can easily buy Knowstones for more. A Wilder, over their career, gains 11 powers - and while there's a potential trick to let them use others, it's highly disputed.

Also, consensus is generally that spells are usually superior to powers. Some powers are more flexible, and psionics in general is better at blasting, but this doesn't make up for deficiencies in other areas.

I find it hard to rate Wilder above Sorcerer in general. Maybe for outright offence, but then you're comparing against Warmages, who are considerably lower tier. The strength of being Sor/Wiz is the vast array of options and utility, and Wilders lack that.

[eggs]

Sure.

In any case, it's pretty easy for the Wilder to break the action economy with things like Linked Synchronicity, Temporal Acceleration, Schism, and Anticipatory Strike, making Wilder far better able to tear the game into pieces, before even going into what its other powers can do.

Shifter Wilders make excellent gishes (use Hidden Talent and Educated for staple PsyWar powers, then Hustle/Animal Affinity/Metamorphosis with normal level progress).

And in the most straightforward manifesting builds, it's not hard to be effective. Just by grabbing powers that target a variety of defenses, the Wilder can remain pretty competitive. Just looking at its blasting capacities, it's not hard to hit some decent markers like 8d6 with a standard action at ECL 3, and it can still grab some dorjes of the powerful low-level debuffs and control powers like Control Light/Sound and Entangling Ectoplasm.

Granted, if your base assumption is that Psychic Reformation isn't usable in its most straightforward purpose (opposed to abusing alongside Inspire Greatness), the Wilder gets a lot worse. But it's still a heavy bruiser with plenty of ways to twist the game until it breaks.

Edit:
I wouldn't rank a Wilder over a Sorcerer by any stretch, but even Psychic Warrior already has to sandbag to stay in the same game as Warblades and Swordsages past level 10 or so. I'd definitely rate it closer to the Sorcerer's weight class than the Warmage's, even if the Warmage's schtick is one of the more straightforward domains to assess its use.

For context, look at the Beguiler and Warmage, and look at how many of their powers are exactly the same. You could easily build a Wilder with Charm, Dominate, Energy Missile, Dispel, Synchronicity and Schism. It would have far more brute force in terms of spell output than either the Beguiler or Warmage at their central schticks at once (though with marginally less versatility within their domains), and still have resources left to branch out into enormously flexible effects like Astral Construct and Metamorphosis, which neither class can emulate.

[Flickerdart]

Quick Recovery (LoM) is a good pick for making Wild Surge less crippling.

[Roguenewb]

Educated Wilders get 15 powers, which put them on scale for like battle-sorcerer if you choose right (a well chosen, scalable power is as good as like 2 spells). The power of the class is in Wild Surge. I played a strong wilder once, who pulled off the best thing I've ever gotten away with. I got a level 18 StP erudite to teach him Arcane Fusion as a power. You can't augment it, but my DM let me wild surge it, and thus surge everything inside of it.

I think the trick to wilding (Fun verb!) is to take Hidden Talent (Astral Construct) at first level, and never, ever look back. Second, is to find some way to get Knowledge planes on your skill list. My personal favorite is Wilder 1 (with Hidden talent ROXXORZ) then human paragon 3 (boosting CHA and givinf you PM), than wilder 2 (if you've been following along...you've got 6th level manifesting, wild surge +2) next, drop into Anarchic Initiate of the Broken for 3 levels (Lvl 9, surging at +3), and then run back into wilder for 4 levels, getting up to lvl 13 with wild surge of 4. From their you can do whatever you want. You just gotta get into Initiate somehow.