PF- The Knife Master (Help)

[NeoSeraphi]

So, I hate rogues. But then, I generally play 3.5, and in 3.5, rogues tend to die...hard. However, in my last PF game, I was pretty impressed with the rogue at our table (He was a sap-using rogue with Sap Master and TWF). He didn't die, he did some pretty sick damage, and his character was noble and refused to steal from anyone (he even refused to loot dead bodies, though he accepted gold, just not items, and was basically playing a voluntary poverty character).

So yeah, I've decided that for the PF rogue, I should give it a shot and see if Paizo managed to redeem the class in my eyes. After carefully reading the rogue's entry in the PF SRD, I have decided to play a halfling Knife Master with the Bandit archetype. I know the Scout archetype is ridiculous, that's why I don't want to play it (My DM will actively try to kill me if I over-optimize).

I want to make the best use of the surprise round. The game is starting at level 3, with 20 PB, and I'm taking the Underhanded rogue talent to let me deal an extra +16 damage with any attack I make during the surprise round. I'm using a dagger, and I rake in a total of +17 to my Sleight of Hand checks to conceal it on my person, so that's not going to be an issue.

My feats are both tax feats (Weapon Finesse and Quick Draw) and my 5th level feat is most likely going to be TWF. After that, they're open (I'm considering Lookout, for obvious reasons).


After the advice given by the posters in the thread, I'm dropping Quick Draw and TWF. So I have an open feat slot at the moment, and I'm still considering what to spend it on.

I am allowed one trait. For now, I chose Reactionary, as it gives me a +2 trait bonus to initiative checks, which is pretty nice.

My ability scores so far are as follows:
Str 10 (12-2 racial)
Dex 18 (16+2 racial)
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 12
Cha 14 (12+2 racial)

What suggestions do you guys have about dishing out serious power in the Surprise round, and making sure my character acts in it? And what other things could I do to make this character better? This game is Pathfinder-only. 3.5 source materials are not permitted.

Edit: To be clear. I am attempting to build a rogue. I have no desire to multiclass, dip or otherwise, nor do I have any desire to prestige. I don't expect this game to go to 20, but if it does, I will have 20 levels of the PF rogue. Please don't suggest any other classes.

[deuxhero]

If you want a book to the head, Blade of the Society can be read (ugh) as giving +1 damage on every Sneak Attack die, which is very good.

With 3.5 materials and the fact that traits are "half feats", it's not even that book to head worthy actually, as it does half of what Craven does.

[NeoSeraphi]

If you want a book to the head, Blade of the Society can be read (ugh) as giving +1 damage on every Sneak Attack die, which is very good.

Blade of the Society? Is that a feat? What book is it in?


With 3.5 materials and the fact that traits are "half feats", it's not even that book to head worthy actually, as it does half of what Craven does.

Absolutely no 3.5 materials for this game. Will edit the OP to reflect that.

[deuxhero]

It's a trait (note that it is not worth takeing if it works out to +1 total)

I didn't mean anything about it being available, I meant that while blatantly NOT the intent (because it is a Pazio thing that they fully think melee should have no nice things), reading it that way could actually be reasonable balance wise if traits are "half feats" given Craven existed in 3.5 and did twice what Blade of the Society read like that would.

[NeoSeraphi]

It's a trait (note that it is not worth takeing if it works out to +1 total)

I didn't mean anything about it being available, I meant that while blatantly NOT the intent (because it is a Pazio thing that they fully think melee should have no nice things), reading it that way could actually be reasonable balance wise if traits are "half feats" given Craven existed in 3.5 and did twice what Blade of the Society read like that would.

I'm reading it on the PFSRD now, and yeah, it looks pretty much like just a +1 trait bonus to damage to me. (Since that's how most traits work, with the +1 to unarmed attacks of opportunity or the +1 to damage rolls while flanking, I'm assuming that's what they intended, and that's how my DM will choose to interpret it).

[deuxhero]

Hence the "book to the head" note.

Bandit and Scout are both archetypes worth looking at that combine with Knife Master, Bandit is generally better for TWFers, though Scout is great if you have some method of pounce (remember you can charge as a standard action if you are restricted to only a single action a round like in a surprise round).

[NeoSeraphi]

Hence the "book to the head" note.

Bandit and Scout are both archetypes worth looking at that combine with Knife Master, Bandit is generally better for TWFers, though Scout is great if you have some method of pounce (remember you can charge as a standard action if you are restricted to only a single action a round like in a surprise round).

Glancing through the source material, the only way I can see to gain pounce is by UMDing a scroll or wand of beast shape II, which can be quite expensive. If you know of another way to get Pounce in PF as a halfling rogue, then please, tell me.

The Bandit is indeed powerful. The ability to full-round during a surprise round is great since I can go invisible and then flurry-knife someone in the back for +16 damage per 2 character levels. I'm looking forward to that. :smallamused:

[Waker]

There are only a few options to be guaranteed an action in a surprise round, the only one that can be gained right away is to take one level of Diviner Wizard, as the Forewarned ability always allows you to act in a surprise round. Other than that, you've just got to pump your perception and play it smart.
Anyways, if Surprise Rounds are your thing, consider taking Surprise Attack, because why wouldn't you want to deal sneak attack damage to someone, even if they did somehow see you coming? Snap Shot will allow you to pretty much always go first in a surprise round.
I wouldn't suggest taking Lookout as a feat. Being limited by the fact that a party member must take it, while also requiring that you are adjacent to them while being surprised is somewhat hindering. Lookout seems like a better feat for a Ranger with an animal companion. I would instead suggest Piranha Strike, which is essentially power attack for light weapons, having a 1 for 2 ratio, though losing some of it's umph with two weapons.
I also must ask, why is Scout ridiculous? Being able to sneak attack on one attack while charging at level 4 or by moving 10ft at level 8 isn't even close to gamebreaking. The only way I would even notice that would be if the character could pounce somehow.

[RndmNumGen]

Taking a 1-level dip in in either the Sohei Monk archetype or the Divine Strategist Cleric archetype will get you the ability to always act in the surprise round, even if you don't notice your enemies.

If you can convince your party members to take teamwork feats, Lookout will potentially allow everyone else in the party to act in the surprise round(they have to be adjacent to you for this to work). In addition, if you both can act in the surprise round, you get full-round actions instead of a single action.

Rapid Reload will allow you to throw an extra dagger per turn. You know, if you're into that stuff. Totals -4 to attacks with TWF, but if you're hitting Flat-Footed targets, it might be worth it.

[NeoSeraphi]

Taking a 1-level dip in in either the Sohei Monk archetype or the Divine Strategist Cleric archetype will get you the ability to always act in the surprise round, even if you don't notice your enemies.


There are only a few options to be guaranteed an action in a surprise round, the only one that can be gained right away is to take one level of Diviner Wizard, as the Forewarned ability always allows you to act in a surprise round. Other than that, you've just got to pump your perception and play it smart.


I don't want to lose any rogue levels. The suggested class dips don't fit with my character concept anyway.



If you can convince your party members to take teamwork feats, Lookout will potentially allow everyone else in the party to act in the surprise round(they have to be adjacent to you for this to work). In addition, if you both can act in the surprise round, you get full-round actions instead of a single action.


I'm thinking about it. Though we do have a cavalier and two samurai in the party, so it's possible that I can get them to just grant us all Lookout instead.



Rapid Reload will allow you to throw an extra dagger per turn. You know, if you're into that stuff. Totals -4 to attacks with TWF, but if you're hitting Flat-Footed targets, it might be worth it.

Quick Draw already lets me do that (at no penalty). But thanks for the suggestion. :smallsmile:


Anyways, if Surprise Rounds are your thing, consider taking Surprise Attack, because why wouldn't you want to deal sneak attack damage to someone, even if they did somehow see you coming? Snap Shot will allow you to pretty much always go first in a surprise round.


Surprise Attack does seem nice. I'll probably pick that up as my 4th level rogue talent.

Snap Shot's wording, on the other hand, just gives my character concept the middle finger:


but she may only take an attack action with a ranged weapon

Not "make a ranged attack". "An attack action with a ranged weapon". A dagger, even when thrown, is not considered a ranged weapon, it is considered a light blade or a light thrown weapon. So Snap Shot will not work for me. (My initiative is already +6 and will only continue to grow as I advance in levels anyway, I'm not too worried about it).


I also must ask, why is Scout ridiculous? Being able to sneak attack on one attack while charging at level 4 or by moving 10ft at level 8 isn't even close to gamebreaking. The only way I would even notice that would be if the character could pounce somehow.


It lets the rogue dish out damage to creatures who aren't flanked, essentially letting the rogue become a machine gun with no prerequisites other than Spring Attack. Besides, if my character was fighting alone, rather than with a meatshield threatening the same creature, I would get curb-stomped. My DM is ruthless with characters when they take risks in combat.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

k, be prepared for awesomeness.

1.) get spring bladed wrist sheaths. cost 5 gp each IIRC and let you draw as a swift action.

2.) get the underhanded talent. it allows MAX damage on Sneak Attacks, no dice rolling. At fourth level with your Bandit/Knife Master, You will be doing 1d4+16 damage during a surprise round.
Your surprise round will look like this: Move, Swift (draw dagger) Attack.

3.) Pick up the River Rat trait. adds +1 damage with daggers.

4.) Pick up a SINGLE level of Wizard OR Cleric. It will improve the most important save in the game (Will), give you a few spells/day and unlimited cantrips, and allow the 100% successful use of wands, all at the mere cost of 1 BAB, and a few skill points. Cleric will also give you medium armor. Look at the Kikko Armor. +5 AC, +4 DEX, 30 gp. nice. I recomend Cleric, because you get armor, shields, and cheap healing wands. This makes you a tumbling combat medic if necessary. The armor and shields make you quite a bit tougher as well.

4.) Don't pick up TWF. you won't be able to use it surprise rounds, and you often wont be able to use it since you will be tumbling into position to flank. Grab a MW buckler instead. (normal buckler if you got a Cleric level.) now you can use the free hand (with the buckler attached) to use wands. Remember, wands and scrolls replicate powerful magics that traditionally only spellcasters have access to. The ability to use them makes you a Mage Lite.

5.) wait to get quick draw until level 7 or 9. it will only be useful when you can make multiple thrown attacks in a round, since you will be using spring loaded sheaths before then. That won't happen til level 8, or 9 (if you took that level of Cleric). IF you're gonna just be in melee, you don't need it at all.

I think thats all the tricks I can remember at the moment. IF i recall anymore, I'll add 'em. Hope this helps!

I like rogues, they just mechanically suck, and that makes me sad.

[Larpus]

Well, if you don't mind a nice side-dish of magic with your character, I personally believe that the best PF Rogue is actually an Alchemist (Vivisectionist) with a 2 levle dip in Rogue.

All the sneak attacks goodness, plus buffs (lots of buffs), natural weapons, possibility for Pounce, lots of utility things (like flight) and you can still get Rogue Tricks.

[NeoSeraphi]

k, be prepared for awesomeness.

1.) get spring bladed wrist sheaths. cost 5 gp each IIRC and let you draw as a swift action.


Whoa, that is indeed nice. I had no idea that even existed.



2.) get the underhanded talent. it allows MAX damage on Sneak Attacks, no dice rolling. At fourth level with your Bandit/Knife Master, You will be doing 1d4+16 damage during a surprise round.
Your surprise round will look like this: Move, Swift (draw dagger) Attack.


I already did. First talent I picked.



3.) Pick up the River Rat trait. adds +1 damage with daggers.


Eh, I think the +2 to initiative will serve me better in the long run.



4.) Pick up a SINGLE level of Wizard OR Cleric. It will improve the most important save in the game (Will), give you a few spells/day and unlimited cantrips, and allow the 100% successful use of wands, all at the mere cost of 1 BAB, and a few skill points. Cleric will also give you medium armor. Look at the Kikko Armor. +5 AC, +4 DEX, 30 gp. nice. I recomend Cleric, because you get armor, shields, and cheap healing wands. This makes you a tumbling combat medic if necessary. The armor and shields make you quite a bit tougher as well.


No. It's not worth delaying my Sneak Attack and rogue talents, and it doesn't fit with my character. Also, you are wrong about being a tumbling medic.



You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor.

You can't tumble while you're in medium armor. It's not that you have an ACP, it's just plain not-allowed.



4.) Don't pick up TWF. you won't be able to use it surprise rounds, and you often wont be able to use it since you will be tumbling into position to flank. Grab a MW buckler instead. (normal buckler if you got a Cleric level.) now you can use the free hand (with the buckler attached) to use wands. Remember, wands and scrolls replicate powerful magics that traditionally only spellcasters have access to. The ability to use them makes you a Mage Lite.


A shield? That seems like a really bad idea. The main way I plan to get surprise rounds is by appearing to be completely unarmed. Hiding daggers on my person, but otherwise appearing completely harmless, then getting up close enough to the enemy, before, WHAM! Dagger to the throat!

Carrying a shield won't let me do that.

As for TWF, that was so I could deal damage after the surprise round started. Flank, deal +4d8 damage per round rather than just +2d8, you know?



5.) wait to get quick draw until level 7 or 9. it will only be useful when you can make multiple thrown attacks in a round, since you will be using spring loaded sheaths before then. That won't happen til level 8, or 9 (if you took that level of Cleric). IF you're gonna just be in melee, you don't need it at all.


I guess now that I have these sheaths I will wait until level 7 or 9 to pick Quick Draw up, and see if I even need it. Though I'm not sure what feat I will take to replace it...



I think thats all the tricks I can remember at the moment. IF i recall anymore, I'll add 'em. Hope this helps!


You did help! Thank you very much!

Edit:


Well, if you don't mind a nice side-dish of magic with your character, I personally believe that the best PF Rogue is actually an Alchemist (Vivisectionist) with a 2 levle dip in Rogue.


I do mind. I'm playing a rogue here. An actual class. I don't want any other classes, I don't want any dips, I just want to play a knife master. (Also, knife master sneak attack is superior to vivisectionist sneak attack).

[grarrrg]

2.) get the underhanded talent.

4.) Don't pick up TWF. you won't be able to use it surprise rounds

Friendly reminder, please read the original post in full.
He already mentioned getting the Underhanded Talent as his first Rogue Talent.
He is also taking the Bandit Archetype, which gives Full/Normal actions during a Surprise round, so a Full Attack is a possibility.


And in no particular order:

You "can" get Pounce on a "rogue" build (note the quotes and lower-case 'rogue').
10 levels of Beastmorph Vivisectionist Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist).
Vivisectionist trades Bombs for Sneak Attack progression (there's your 'rogue'), and Beastmorph lets your Mutagens add Beastmorph-spell abilities (withOUT becoming an animal) while you are Mutated, throw on a level of Master Chymist for +2 uses of Mutagen/day and you can now Sneak-Pounce. Throw 4 levels of Scout Rogue on top and... messy.

Back on topic-ish.
As mentioned there are archetypes/options for Cleric, Monk, and Wizard to always act in the surprise round. 1 class was overlooked however, Paladin. Still not recommended for your build, but it's there for completeness sake (Please see my PF Class Dipping Guide link in my signature! Initiative Boosters can be Quick Referenced in the Quick Reference section of the guide! See Post #3! [/shameless plug])

You are a Halfling Rogue, you should DEFINITELY consider taking levels of Halfling Opportunist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/halfling-opportunist). Sneak Attack every 2 levels (you'll have to ask your DM if they are 1d6's, or if he'll let you Knife Master them up to d8's, minor issue either way), 6 skills/level, and HUGE Save boosts. It has Good Ref/Will to start, and at 2nd and 4th your racial save bonus improves by +1 All Saves.


You may also consider 2 levels of Ranger to regain Trapfinding/Disabling and Uncanny Dodge.
Trapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trapper) Ranger trades Ranger spells for Trapfinding.
Wild Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/wild-stalker) Ranger trades Favored Enemy for Low Light Vision, and the 2nd level bonus feat for Uncanny Dodge.
You'll lose 1d8 of Sneak damage, but it's Full Bab w/6 Skills, so you won't lose much else.

[NeoSeraphi]

You are a Halfling Rogue, you should DEFINITELY consider taking levels of Halfling Opportunist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/halfling-opportunist). Sneak Attack every 2 levels (you'll have to ask your DM if they are 1d6's, or if he'll let you Knife Master them up to d8's, minor issue either way), 6 skills/level, and HUGE Save boosts. It has Good Ref/Will to start, and at 2nd and 4th your racial save bonus improves by +1 All Saves.


My DM mentioned the idea to me, actually. However, he seemed very displeased when he did so, calling Halfling Opportunist "the troll class" and implying that he had seen a player use Exploitative Maneuver to an annoying extent (which, looking it over, I agree, it seems hilariously troll-worthy).

So, while Halfling Opportunist does offer quite a bit to my character, I don't think I'll take levels in it, just to spare my DM the grief (I know I wouldn't be able to resist trying to Exploit at least every other round, I am kind of a jerk like that.)



You may also consider 2 levels of Ranger to regain Trapfinding/Disabling and Uncanny Dodge.
Trapper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trapper) Ranger trades Ranger spells for Trapfinding.
Wild Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/wild-stalker) Ranger trades Favored Enemy for Low Light Vision, and the 2nd level bonus feat for Uncanny Dodge.
You'll lose 1d8 of Sneak damage, but it's Full Bab w/6 Skills, so you won't lose much else.

Nah, I can already find traps and disable without Trapfinding, just not magical traps. (Personally, I think it's boring to disable magical traps. I'd rather trigger them and see what happens :smallcool:).

Do you have any suggestions for how to act in a surprise round through feats or items, rather than class features?

Also, does anyone have a suggestion for a different feat, since I no longer need Quick Draw?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

the problem with rogues is that they are medium BAB classes. so yes, ON PAPER 4d8 looks better than 2d8. To get that 4d8, you first have to suck up a -2 to attacks, a worse penalty than if you had dipped Cleric. You'll be getting sneak Attacks off on low AC mooks, not real threats. TWF leads to missing high AC, high priority targets.
Then you have to get into a position to flank. To do that, you have to move. On a move, you can't make a full attack, thereby making TWF a useless feat for that round. its also useless during the surprise round, something that your choice of archetypes puts a heavy emphasis on and therefore investment in.

Dipping Cleric and wearing a shield instead helps your survivability immensely. Cleric helps shore up two weaknesses of the rogue: Low AC (med. armor, shields) and low saves (+2 will).

Yes, you can't tumble in Med. armor right away, but after investing in mithril Kikko armor or breastplate, you can. Thats easy to do after a few levels.

If you INSIST on TWF, then multiclass with Ranger or Fighter. Pure Rogue will miss too much, and full BAB will go a long way to helping you out in that regard. Especially Weapon Master Fighter, which will give you weapon training (presumably daggers) by third level. Weapon training gives another +1 to hit and damage, if you recall. combine with weapon focus, and you have negated your TWF penalties, and added some to your base BAB, to your HP, and to you weak Fortitude save.

Also, consider Two weapon feint, and improved two weapon feint. It allows you to use your fast TWF attack to feint, and the rest count as flat footed, so you get your Sneak Attack off. Of course, then you are relying on bluff to pull that off.

Again, I suggest rogue 1/Cleric 1/Rogue X, and no TWF.

If you want TWF:
Fighter (weapon master) 3/Rogue 3/Fighter (weapon Master) 4/ Rogue X. this gives you extra feats ,and access to the BAB you need for TWF, weapon specialization, weapon training; basically the stuff you need to make TWF viable.

OR

Ranger 2/Rogue 2/Ranger 3/Rogue X. Gives you two favored enemies, TWF, better Fort saves, access to limited wands, lots of skill points, better HP, the BAB you need for TWF. it wont be as radically helpful as Weapon Master, but still just enough.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Friendly reminder, please read the original post in full.
He already mentioned getting the Underhanded Talent as his first Rogue Talent.
He is also taking the Bandit Archetype, which gives Full/Normal actions during a Surprise round, so a Full Attack is a possibility.

First of all, his description of Underhanded was incorrect, so I restated what it did. It does not give +1d6 damage, it gives MAX damage.

Secondly, Bandit archetype DOES NOT give the possibility of full attack.

"Ambush (Ex)

At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.

This ability replaces uncanny dodge."

nowhere does this state you may take a full action. You get a swift, move, and standard action. you can move to your target, swift draw from your spring loaded sheaths, and make a standard attack. Thats it. No full attacks, no TWF.

To the OP: another feat I would suggest is toughness. being a frontline, low AC TWF blender, you'll need the extra HP. The next feat you should take after that is Iron Will. Your party will be pissed if you get dominated and then Sneak Attack them to death with fistfuls of d8's.

[NeoSeraphi]

Hmm...guess I'll just use a single dagger then. Right now I have +8 to hit (+2 BAB, +1 Size, +4 Dex, +1 masterwork), so I figured it wouldn't be too bad to drop it down to +6/+6, but I suppose it's better to hit more often than it is to swing out and hope for the best.

Still, that does leave me with the question of what will I spend my 3rd level feat on. Now I won't be using it for TWF or Quick Draw...

Pirahna Strike doesn't really seem necessary. It's taking a penalty to-hit for damage, and if I wanted to do that, I could just TWF, as that damage actually scales a lot better.

So...hmm...


Dipping Cleric and wearing a shield instead helps your survivability immensely. Cleric helps shore up two weaknesses of the rogue: Low AC (med. armor, shields) and low saves (+2 will).


Yes, but my character is not religious. He's not a spellcaster, he's not devoted to a cause or a deity, he's just a guy who likes to stab people. Also, as I stated before, shields are not conducive to getting a surprise round.

[NeoSeraphi]

First of all, his description of Underhanded was incorrect, so I restated what it did. It does not give +1d6 damage, it gives MAX damage.

You misread my description. I didn't say +1d6 damage. I said +16 damage (+maximum of 2d8, which is how much I'm dealing right now).



Secondly, Bandit archetype DOES NOT give the possibility of full attack.

"Ambush (Ex)

At 4th level, a bandit becomes fully practiced in the art of ambushing. When she acts in the surprise round, she can take a move action, standard action, and swift action during the surprise round, not just a move or standard action.


Hence the reason I am considering the Lookout feat. It does give me the ability to full-round during a surprise round (though I might just ask the cavalier/samurai to give it to the party for free).


To the OP: another feat I would suggest is toughness. being a frontline, low AC TWF blender, you'll need the extra HP. The next feat you should take after that is Iron Will. Your party will be pissed if you get dominated and then Sneak Attack them to death with fistfuls of d8's.

Ah, houserule of the game, we already get an extra +1 HP and +1 skill point per level (in addition to our favored class bonuses). So my hit points are actually pretty decent, with the 12 Con and all.

And I'm dropping TWF, at your suggestion. Just going to dagger it up.

As for Iron Will...no. It's terrible. +2 to a save is not worth a feat slot, especially when I already have a racial bonus to saving throws that's half that. If I get dominated, my party can deal with it. (And they will. There's six of them.)

I'd rather use my feats to improve my character's offense. I'll worry about his defense myself.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

your character doesnt have to be religious to get spells. Clerics dont have to pray to deities, go check the entry. Your character can be a paragon of traveling and trickery. he gets the domains, the spells, but doesnt pray to the gods.

Secondly, I did make many recommendations in my last post on how to make your character an effective TWF-er... it just involves dipping into something other than rogue.

again, if you aren't going to take TWF and Quick Draw, take Iron Will and Toughness, two feats NO front line rogue should be without.

EDIT Iron Will IS NOT terrible. Will save is THE most important in the game, bar none. It is also Rogues greatest weakness. SO many save or suck spells run off of it, its not even funny.

[NeoSeraphi]

your character doesnt have to be religious to get spells. Clerics dont have to pray to deities, go check the entry. Your character can be a paragon of traveling and trickery. he gets the domains, the spells, but doesnt pray to the gods.

Still doesn't fit the character, still isn't worth delaying my Sneak Attack or rogue talents for. Plus, it eats into my skill points hard. (Not only does it drop from 8+Int to 2+Int, but I lose my favored class bonus skill point as well. That's a total of -7 skill points, in addition to -1 BAB, less Reflex, and lower Sneak Attack/rogue talents).



Secondly, I did make many recommendations in my last post on how to make your character an effective TWF-er... it just involves dipping into something other than rogue.


Right, but I don't want to do that.



again, if you aren't going to take TWF and Quick Draw, take Iron Will and Toughness, two feats NO front line rogue should be without.

Again, my hit points are already being buffed by the DM, and as for Iron Will, I'll risk it. I have a wizard, an inquisitor, and an oracle in my party, I'm sure if I get dominated one of them can just SoL me and then I can sit in time-out for a few rounds. It'll be far preferrable to burning a feat on a pathetic +2 to Will saves.


Iron Will is NOT terrible. -snip-
So I should sacrifice my rogue-ness and my power in order to protect myself from threats I might encounter? I could go a whole session without making a single Will save, and then what? No thanks, I don't buy into the whole "paranoid, gotta protect yourself a billion times over" stuff. I'd rather take a feat that provides me with a continuous, relevant benefit that I will see play with than spend a slot getting a +10% chance to succeed on one type of saving throw.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Still doesn't fit the character, still isn't worth delaying my Sneak Attack or rogue talents for. Plus, it eats into my skill points hard. (Not only does it drop from 8+Int to 2+Int, but I lose my favored class bonus skill point as well. That's a total of -7 skill points, in addition to -1 BAB, less Reflex, and lower Sneak Attack/rogue talents).



Right, but I don't want to do that.



Again, my hit points are already being buffed by the DM, and as for Iron Will, I'll risk it. I have a wizard, an inquisitor, and an oracle in my party, I'm sure if I get dominated one of them can just SoL me and then I can sit in time-out for a few rounds. It'll be far preferrable to burning a feat on a pathetic +2 to Will saves.

Right. Well, if you stay pure rogue for TWF, one of two will happen: your DM will babysit you, and you'll live. Your DM will let you be, and you will die. Either way, you will suck.

It appears that you are not going to TWF, which I applaud. It, like Finesse, is a trap. Its even more of a trap than Finesse for a rogue. At least with Finesse a Rogue will be hitting more often.

If you dont want Toughness or Iron Will either (though I still strongly recommend them both) you COULD grab combat expertise and Imp. Feint, loath as I am to say it. However, this feat chain is ONLY viable with two rogue talents: Offensive Defense (gives +1 AC for one round per SA dice rolled when making a SA) and Getaway (allows you to withdraw after a sneak attack).

Also Rogue (Scout) isn't broken. none of the abilities work against enemies with Uncanny Dodge (a common ability) and using the feat Charging Hurler will carry you through til level 8 when you get Skirmish. You might want to consider that instead of Bandit... I would call them equal archetypes, really, as far as what they add in combat.

Another line of Feats to consider is: Persuasive, Quick Draw, and Betrayer. allows you to make a free Sneak Attack after a successful diplomacy to turn someone to friendly. Works well with underhanded and Bandit.

[NeoSeraphi]

Hmm...I don't really see any other feats on the PF SRD that look useful.

So it's come down to either Toughness or Well-Prepared, which is extremely useful and very rogue-like. (Also saves me a ton of time deciding which random items I'll need to buy).

Does anyone have any other ideas for a good 3rd level feat for a melee rogue, or is Toughness really the best one?

[grarrrg]

Don't forget you can take Ninja Tricks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja#TOC-Ninja-Tricks) instead of Rogue Talents (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ninja-trick-ex)

Most of the better ones require a Ki Pool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ki-pool-ex), although there are still some useful ones.
My favorite is Pressure Points, on a successful Sneak Attack you can do 1 point of STR or DEX damage, I know this isn't much, but combining the STR damage with the Crippling Strike Advanced Rogue Talent, and your doing 3 STR damage every Sneak.



nowhere does this state you may take a full action. You get a swift, move, and standard action. ... Thats it. No full attacks, no TWF.


Technically a Full Action is a Standard+Move, so I don't see how you couldn't take one.


Hence the reason I am considering the Lookout feat. It does give me the ability to full-round during a surprise round (though I might just ask the cavalier/samurai to give it to the party for free).


Lookout is nice and all, but it only gives a "full turn" if "both you and your ally would be able to act in the surprise round without the aid of this feat".
So unless your party is the one doing the Ambushing, then it won't help too much, still nice to have though.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Technically a Full Action is a Standard+Move, so I don't see how you couldn't take one.

Technically it doesn't say you can make a full attack. In fact, it explicitly states you can make a move and standard action, and makes NO mention of combining them to make a full attack. I guess at the end of the day, its up to you GM, but over at the Paizo boards it is assumed you CANNOT make a full attack with it.

All threads concerning it over there say move action, swift action, standard action, but can't make a full action.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wait a second. I just realized as I was updating my sheet...without Quick Draw, I can't attack during the surprise round, since I don't get a swift action during the surprise round until I get Ambush. So even with your spring-loaded wrist sheaths, I couldn't draw my weapons during the surprise round. :smallannoyed:

Guess I'll take Quick Draw instead anyway. It's worth the feat to avoid being useless when my character wants to fight the most.

[grarrrg]

Technically it doesn't say you can make a full attack. In fact, it explicitly states you can make a move and standard action, and makes NO mention of combining them to make a full attack. I guess at the end of the day, its up to you GM, but over at the Paizo boards it is assumed you CANNOT make a full attack with it.

Without having visited the Paizo boards much...

Since we have to interpret anyway, I refer you to the Lookout (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lookout-combat-teamwork) Feat:

this feat, you may take both a standard and a move action (or a full-round action) during the surprise round.

Note that the "Full-Round" action bit is in parenthesis, this indicates it is more of a reminder. If it were 'you are allowed to', then it would/should be written as:

this feat, you may take both a standard and a move action, or a full-round action, during the surprise round.


I should also point out that the Bandit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/bandit) Rogue archetype AS WRITTEN trades away Uncanny Dodge twice, while retaining the use of Improved Uncanny Dodge. So an omission of reminder text is understandable.

[deuxhero]

Don't forget you can take Ninja Tricks (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/ninja#TOC-Ninja-Tricks) instead of Rogue Talents (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ninja-trick-ex)

Most of the better ones require a Ki Pool (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/ki-pool-ex), although there are still some useful ones.
My favorite is Pressure Points, on a successful Sneak Attack you can do 1 point of STR or DEX damage, I know this isn't much, but combining the STR damage with the Crippling Strike Advanced Rogue Talent, and your doing 3 STR damage every Sneak.




Both modify SA and can't be used with each other.

Pressure Points and Crippling Strike and both good for TWF SAers, though pretty redundant. Ask the DM if you can either a: Trade out Pressure Points once you get Crippling Strike b: Allow use of Crippling Strike to do dex if you have Pressure Points.

[Mustard]

Wait a second. I just realized as I was updating my sheet...without Quick Draw, I can't attack during the surprise round, since I don't get a swift action during the surprise round until I get Ambush. So even with your spring-loaded wrist sheaths, I couldn't draw my weapons during the surprise round. :smallannoyed:

Guess I'll take Quick Draw instead anyway. It's worth the feat to avoid being useless when my character wants to fight the most.
Well, the thing you want to do is walk up to someone and shiv them, right, as a surprise round? And once you get swift actions to use a spring-loaded wrist sheath, Quick Draw offers little benefit, yes? I think there are two ways around this:

1. Determine whether Underhanded works for "weapon in hand, hidden in my cloak" (there are debates about this). If so, you have a weapon that qualifies as "concealed" for the purposes of Underhanded, and it's no action to "draw" it, because it's already drawn. To support this interpretation, we see that Underhanded mentions "concealed", while Sleight of Hand and Quick Draw mention "hidden". They could simply be synonyms, but Underhanded appears to have the intent that its usage of "concealed" is not to be confused with "hidden", since it goes on to say, "that her opponent didn't know about", as though it were not a well-established term.

2. Don't walk directly up to your mark with the intent to quickly draw a weapon and stab them. Have your teammates distract them, while you make a Stealth check to approach from behind. Assuming you weren't brandishing the weapon before making the maneuver, it should work, but I think a cooperative GM is required. There are no rules for facing in combat (as everyone's alert), but before combat, you should be able to make a case for trying to use Stealth in this manner. At least perhaps sparingly.

If you have the funds, it might be a good idea to get a couple potions of Vanish, CL 2-5, for emergencies where it just has to work.

As for tumbling, don't wear medium armor, wear a mithral chain shirt. It is all-around good, easily hidden underneath your bulky roguish street clothing, and of course, lets you tumble, which you are likely wont to do. In my experience, you end up fighting in cramped spaces alarmingly frequently, and you may want to pass through an opponent's square to flank.

Also, refer to Telekinetic Charge if you have a party arcanist willing to prepare it for you.

[Cieyrin]

Rapid Reload will allow you to throw an extra dagger per turn. You know, if you're into that stuff. Totals -4 to attacks with TWF, but if you're hitting Flat-Footed targets, it might be worth it.

I think what was meant here was Rapid Shot, not Rapid Reload.

I also think it patently ridiculous that Ambush is being interpreted as Standard and Move only, that you can't convert that to a full round like in a normal round. That's just being pedantic for the sake of it.

For a trait recommendation, Veteran of Battle gives you +1 Init and allows you to draw a weapon as a free action during surprise rounds, so you could circumvent Quick Draw entirely unless you're big on throwing.

Another suggestion for you is if you may want to pursue the Betrayer feat for setting up your own Surprise Round if you want to go the Innocent Halfling route before embedding a dagger in their sternum.

That's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[NeoSeraphi]

I think what was meant here was Rapid Shot, not Rapid Reload.

Oh. Right. Well, I might go that route later, I don't have enough WBL to get more than 2 masterwork daggers at the moment.



I also think it patently ridiculous that Ambush is being interpreted as Standard and Move only, that you can't convert that to a full round like in a normal round. That's just being pedantic for the sake of it.


Indeed. "Hey, you have an ability that lets you process and use a full six seconds of time when you're ambushing, but you can't use it for full six second actions!"



For a trait recommendation, Veteran of Battle gives you +1 Init and allows you to draw a weapon as a free action during surprise rounds, so you could circumvent Quick Draw entirely unless you're big on throwing.


:eek: THAT'S PERFECT! Hmm...It's a religious trait...hope that my DM will allow it even without Gorum in the world...



Another suggestion for you is if you may want to pursue the Betrayer feat for setting up your own Surprise Round if you want to go the Innocent Halfling route before embedding a dagger in their sternum.

That's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

I...don't see why I need a feat to do that though. What does the feat allow me to do? I already have Quick Draw in order to take it, and any opponent is going to be flat-footed against my attacks during the surprise round anyway since they haven't acted yet. As far as I can tell, that feat only lets me inflict a -2 penalty to a creature's initiative.

[NeoSeraphi]

I think what was meant here was Rapid Shot, not Rapid Reload.

Oh. Right. Well, I might go that route later, I don't have enough WBL to get more than 2 masterwork daggers at the moment.



I also think it patently ridiculous that Ambush is being interpreted as Standard and Move only, that you can't convert that to a full round like in a normal round. That's just being pedantic for the sake of it.


Indeed. "Hey, you have an ability that lets you process and use a full six seconds of time when you're ambushing, but you can't use it for full six second actions!"



For a trait recommendation, Veteran of Battle gives you +1 Init and allows you to draw a weapon as a free action during surprise rounds, so you could circumvent Quick Draw entirely unless you're big on throwing.


:eek: THAT'S PERFECT! Hmm...It's a religious trait...hope that my DM will allow it even without Gorum in the world...



Another suggestion for you is if you may want to pursue the Betrayer feat for setting up your own Surprise Round if you want to go the Innocent Halfling route before embedding a dagger in their sternum.

That's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

I...don't see why I need a feat to do that though. What does the feat allow me to do? I already have Quick Draw in order to take it, and any opponent is going to be flat-footed against my attacks during the surprise round anyway since they haven't acted yet. As far as I can tell, that feat only lets me inflict a -2 penalty to a creature's initiative.

[Cieyrin]

I...don't see why I need a feat to do that though. What does the feat allow me to do? I already have Quick Draw in order to take it, and any opponent is going to be flat-footed against my attacks during the surprise round anyway since they haven't acted yet. As far as I can tell, that feat only lets me inflict a -2 penalty to a creature's initiative.

Betrayer happens before the Surprise round even starts, so if you manage to manipulate them into trusting you, you Betray and THEN get Surprise.

[NeoSeraphi]

Betrayer happens before the Surprise round even starts, so if you manage to manipulate them into trusting you, you Betray and THEN get Surprise.

Hmm...an interesting notion. Though, with the Veteran of Battle trait, Quick Draw is really just a feat tax for me, and Persuasive is definitely just a feat tax. Nah. I'm good. I appreciate your help though (Veteran of Battle is huge, it's way better than any traits I've seen so far, except perhaps Magical Knack).