Archfiends: Source?

[Malachei]

I'd like to know which source you are using for archfiends.

In Book of Vile Darkness, the archfiends presented are supposed to be the "real deal", whereas Fiendish Codex I & II detail aspects. While these aspects are more powerful than those in Miniatures Handbook, they are still somewhat lacking and not too far away in CR from a Pit Fiend or Balor.

BUT, they have the advantage of 3.5 compatibility, including updated spell and SLA selection, plus a somewhat better feat selection.

Also, the SLA are different in each version: For instance, FC II Orcus (only CR 22 :smallfrown:) has Quicken SLA (Enervation) and Astral Projection at will, whereas BoVD Orcus has Shapechange and Time Stop (obviously better).

Personally, before I use an archfiend, I'll always redesign the statblock to fit my particular idea, and I'd improve feat & spell selection somewhat.

Still, I would have loved a right-out-of-the-box version of the originals at CR 25-35, enough to challenge a party not too far in epic play. With BoVD being a 3.0 book, I'm also not sure their BoVD CRs compare very well to 3.5 CRs (as the power level has increased).

Which versions do you use?

What do you think of the BoVD versions and their CRs?

What do you think of the versions in Demonomicon of Iggwilv (Dragon magazine)?

Is there another source for 3.5-compatible archfiends?

[Empedocles]

Is there another source for 3.5-compatible archfiends?

Dragon magazine :smallwink:

As for the BoVD I use them as challenges for 20th level characters, but never higher (I've used both Orcus and Graz'zt)

[hamishspence]

Orcus isn't in Dragon- but he is in the last but one part of the Savage Tide adventure path (Dungeon- last issues before it went to online.)

The Gates of Hell dicefreaks project has archdevils souped up to deity-level power.

Also, FC1 and FC2 have free web enhancements. I think FC2's include various minor archfiends.

[Malachei]

Orcus isn't in Dragon- but he is in the last but one part of the Savage Tide adventure path (Dungeon- last issues before it went to online.)

Thank you so much! I did not remember, and I actually have these issues. The Savage Tide the versions of Demogorgon (CR 33) and Orcus are different from BoVD (CR 30 and CR 28, respectively). They are also based upon the FC I aspects, rather than the BoVD versions. This helps.


The Gates of Hell dicefreaks project has archdevils souped up to deity-level power.

Thanks. I'll look into this.


Also, FC1 and FC2 have free web enhancements. I think FC2's include various minor archfiends.

I have both books, and the web enhancements. In general, even though they upgraded some fiends and improved them compared to their 3.0 versions in FC I & II, the archfiends are actually lower in CR than the BoVD versions, because they are aspects.

My main issue is that I fiend the archfiends too weak in general, not only the aspects. The BoVD version of Bel, for instance, is CR 20 only (and that was 3.0 CR 20).

Other than BoVD (which is 3.0), Demonomicon of Iggwilv, and Savage Tide (thanks again!), I don't know a 3.5 source for original ("non-aspect") archfiends.

[hamishspence]

Champions of Ruin (3.5) has some Faerun-centric archfiends- including Eltab who I think gets a passing mention in FC1 as well, so could be justified as existing outside of Faerun.