Mindread/Telepathy offgame problems and clarifications

[Kerilstrasz]

I have a player that will get mindbender PrC at next level and i have a problem with the following...
A) Telepathy
Telepathy (Su): A mindbender unlocks one of the most
basic elements of his mental craft at 1st level, gaining the
ability to communicate telepathically with any creature
within 100 feet that has a language.
Communicate = speak and listen... so... lets say an ally of him wants to talk to him without the MB knows... and starts to "thinking" the message... the MB listens it?(according to the above he doesnt need to activate it so we can assume its always on)and if thats true... he can "listen" anyone/anything that has a language and in 100ft, that tries to "speak" to him?
B)Mindread
Mindread (Sp): At 3rd level and higher, a mindbender
can read the surface thoughts of a living creature within 100
feet. This is a mind-affecting ability that requires a standard
action to use. The mindbender must be able to see the target;
a successful Will save (DC 12 + primary spellcasting ability
modifi er) negates the effect. Creatures of animal intelligence
(Int 1 or 2) have only simple, instinctual thoughts.
Maintaining the effect requires concentration; the
maximum duration is 10 minutes. The ability can penetrate
barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin
sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. This effect is
the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.
A mindbender can use this ability two times per day at 3rd
level and four times per day at 7th level.
Clarify "surface thoughts" plz!
i can assume that a surface thought during a meal is "oh im hungry" or "oh that tastes good" or during a surpise round "WTF?!?!" or during a fight "Chargeee!" or stmthing like that..
in any case... how i as DM will provide that info to him(the surfase though)if he use it on a PC?i ask the PC?i tell my players that they will have to always tell me what their chars think?(thats too time consuming)..
keep in mind that the player that wants to play the MB dont wish to reveal his abilities to other PCs or even Players.

Plz answer to all the bolded questions :)

[moritheil]

I have a player that will get mindbender PrC at next level and i have a problem with the following...
A) Telepathy
Telepathy (Su): A mindbender unlocks one of the most
basic elements of his mental craft at 1st level, gaining the
ability to communicate telepathically with any creature
within 100 feet that has a language.
Communicate = speak and listen... so... lets say an ally of him wants to talk to him without the MB knows... and starts to "thinking" the message... the MB listens it?(according to the above he doesnt need to activate it so we can assume its always on)and if thats true... he can "listen" anyone/anything that has a language and in 100ft, that tries to "speak" to him?
B)Mindread
Mindread (Sp): At 3rd level and higher, a mindbender
can read the surface thoughts of a living creature within 100
feet. This is a mind-affecting ability that requires a standard
action to use. The mindbender must be able to see the target;
a successful Will save (DC 12 + primary spellcasting ability
modifi er) negates the effect. Creatures of animal intelligence
(Int 1 or 2) have only simple, instinctual thoughts.
Maintaining the effect requires concentration; the
maximum duration is 10 minutes. The ability can penetrate
barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin
sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it. This effect is
the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.
A mindbender can use this ability two times per day at 3rd
level and four times per day at 7th level.
Clarify "surface thoughts" plz!
i can assume that a surface thought during a meal is "oh im hungry" or "oh that tastes good" or during a surpise round "WTF?!?!" or during a fight "Chargeee!" or stmthing like that..
in any case... how i as DM will provide that info to him(the surfase though)if he use it on a PC?i ask the PC?i tell my players that they will have to always tell me what their chars think?(thats too time consuming)..
keep in mind that the player that wants to play the MB dont wish to reveal his abilities to other PCs or even Players.

Plz answer to all the bolded questions :)

"Surface Thoughts" as in Detect Thoughts (which is a 2nd level spell and likely the basis for the ability):


You detect surface thoughts. The amount of information revealed depends on how long you study a particular area or subject.

1st Round
Presence or absence of thoughts (from conscious creatures with Intelligence scores of 1 or higher).

2nd Round
Number of thinking minds and the Intelligence score of each. If the highest Intelligence is 26 or higher (and at least 10 points higher than your own Intelligence score), you are stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. This spell does not let you determine the location of the thinking minds if you can’t see the creatures whose thoughts you are detecting.

3rd Round
Surface thoughts of any mind in the area. A target’s Will save prevents you from reading its thoughts, and you must cast detect thoughts again to have another chance. Creatures of animal intelligence (Int 1 or 2) have simple, instinctual thoughts that you can pick up.

Each round, you can turn to detect thoughts in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

You basically point at something and say "Is it thinking anything?" and then "Is it dumb, smart, or REALLY smart?"

[VGLordR2]

"Surface Thoughts" as in Detect Thoughts (which is a 2nd level spell and likely the basis for the ability):



You basically point at something and say "Is it thinking anything?" and then "Is it dumb, smart, or REALLY smart?"

That can't be right. Look at step three of Detect Thoughts. It literally reveals surface thoughts of target creature.

[Urpriest]

Surface Thoughts are what you hear on a movie or a TV show when you're inside a character's head. They're the verbal, immediate thoughts that generally are depicted with a sort of hollow sound and a lot of meaningless silly chatter.

In terms of players, just have the player ask the others. There's no need to keep the character's telepathy secret from the other players, just keep it secret from their characters.

[Kerilstrasz]

hmm... how about the telepathy "listen" question?

[moritheil]

That can't be right. Look at step three of Detect Thoughts. It literally reveals surface thoughts of target creature.

It is right - for the first two rounds. That gives the DM a lot more time to respond than having to deliver up the goods instantaneously. And the intelligence dependence means you can filter out everything that isn't within a certain range of the caster's own intelligence, which further cuts down on the DM burden. (Everything with very low Int is thinking about food or reproduction or maybe, if it's in a fight, how to survive or flee. Everything with very high Int - just open a dictionary and pick a word, which will be connected in some esoteric way to something they are plotting.)

[Venger]

hmm... how about the telepathy "listen" question?

as far as that, the srd has your answer:


Telepathy
A creature with this ability can communicate telepathically with any other creature within a certain range (specified in the creature’s entry, usually 100 feet) that has a language. It is possible to address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining a telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at the same time.


so how telepathy works:

you must be aware of the creature that you want to talk to (imagine it as talking to someone normally. you can't talk to someone you don't know is there) but since mindbender's telepathy is only 100ft, that shouldn't be a problem for social stuff and most combat since it takes place in that general sphere.

you can listen to 2 or more people at once, but it's just as hard as talking to that many people normally, so is usually difficult, since your friends can communicate with you, but they can't communicate with each other, so it would be like a bunch of people talking to you on a chat server without knowing that you were already in several conversations with you being the only common thread.

so you can "start a conversation" with someone and hear what they telepathically say to you, but that is not the same as reading their thoughts. they will think and then talk to you like normal conversation. they obviously must respond to you and may be uninterested in talking. however, there is no save against receiving your telepathic statements, so you can harass them all you like from a hidden position, you might use it to get the drop on someone or distract them.

also, is your player taking the "mindsight" feat? if so, there'll be other stuff too: you'll need to tell him when a creature of int 1 or more is in 100ft of him, its int score, its type, and what square it's in (doesn't negate concealment) so if something's invisible, he can pinpoint the square, but still not avoid rolling d%

make sense?

[Slipperychicken]

hmm... how about the telepathy "listen" question?

I'd say that Telepathy opens a controlled channel between the two creature's minds. The only thoughts that go through are ones actively and willingly transmitted through the channel by the creature in question. Sort of like a walkie-talkie: the other guy has to actively use the device to transmit information through it. Otherwise the channel is flooded with ambience from both sides and communication is impossible.


Telepathy and mind-reading are very different things in dnd. If it was intended to "listen" to thoughts, it would have a clause requiring a save, and be a much higher-level ability.

[Andorax]

Any form of telepathic communication depends on intent. You have to want to think your thoughts AT the telepath. His telepathy then makes it possible for that line of communication to be opened up.

If you're talking to someone else, or thinking something to yourself with no intention that the mindbender hear it, he's not going to...at least not until he gets the "read surface thoughts" ability later on.

[Duke of URL]

Yeah, I've always played telepathy as "carrying on a conversation mentally" and not using it to eavesdrop on other "conversations". That is, the thought has to be directed at you in order for you to "hear" it telepathically -- telepathy also works as a universal translator, IIRC, in that you can communicate telepathically even if you don't understand the target's language.

[Kerilstrasz]

sorry if my question was a bit confusing... i think andorax got it...


Any form of telepathic communication depends on intent. You have to want to think your thoughts AT the telepath. His telepathy then makes it possible for that line of communication to be opened up.

If you're talking to someone else, or thinking something to yourself with no intention that the mindbender hear it, he's not going to...at least not until he gets the "read surface thoughts" ability later on.

if the bolds are true i have my answer.. thnks!

also i really liked that flooded channel thingie


I'd say that Telepathy opens a controlled channel between the two creature's minds. The only thoughts that go through are ones actively and willingly transmitted through the channel by the creature in question. Sort of like a walkie-talkie: the other guy has to actively use the device to transmit information through it. Otherwise the channel is flooded with ambience from both sides and communication is impossible.


Telepathy and mind-reading are very different things in dnd. If it was intended to "listen" to thoughts, it would have a clause requiring a save, and be a much higher-level ability.

thnx for the help

[Sutremaine]

also, is your player taking the "mindsight" feat? if so, there'll be other stuff too: you'll need to tell him when a creature of int 1 or more is in 100ft of him, its int score, its type, and what square it's in (doesn't negate concealment) so if something's invisible, he can pinpoint the square, but still not avoid rolling d%
Yeah, but you already need to do something like that if the PC has functioning eyes, since they can use "eyesight" to detect and pinpoint creatures within range (and line of sight, naturally). Kind of the same thing if a PC has functioning ears.

[JoeYounger]

Yeah, but you already need to do something like that if the PC has functioning eyes, since they can use "eyesight" to detect and pinpoint creatures within range (and line of sight, naturally). Kind of the same thing if a PC has functioning ears.

His point was, with mindsight nothing can hide from you. If it is there, and it has an int score above a 1, you know it is there. immediately. It cannot hide, it cannot sneak up on you. If it is there, you know. People that use eyes and ears can be foiled with Hide or move silently.

[Sutremaine]

Hmm, I may have been a little aggressive with that, yes. If an enemy knows about mindsight the important minds can be drowned out in general mental noise (eg. an assassin in a marketplace), but odds are that anything the player needs to worry about will stick out like a sore thumb. There don't seem to be many counters to the ability beyond interfering with interpretation of the data or not being on the Material Plane at all (which might or might not work, given that neither the feat nor the special ability mention planar restrictions), which leads to all-or-nothing effectiveness of the ability.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a handbook that talks about countering Mindsight and other such abilities:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

[Venger]

Yeah, but you already need to do something like that if the PC has functioning eyes, since they can use "eyesight" to detect and pinpoint creatures within range (and line of sight, naturally). Kind of the same thing if a PC has functioning ears.

well, yeah, but I thought it was understood that this was when these are not applicable (ex. party is approaching a locked door and nobody has x ray vision. mindbender will use mindsight to see that there is a monstrous humanoid with int 9 on the other side of the door and that he is alone. this also allows the mindbender to know that another creature is there, allowing the use of telepathy

as mentioned, it can also help with mundane hide/ms checks, which are quite deadly as true seeing and similar effects cannot penetrate them. these become much worse when used in conjunction with the darkstalker feat, also from lords of madness. handily, mindsight is not one of the senses it foils, so if a darkstalker sneaks up behind you, the instant he's within 100 feet, you know that there's say, a humanoid with int 14 there, but also exactly what square he's in, so the party can lay down some AoEs (since mindsight doesn't negate concealment for targeted effects)



Hmm, I may have been a little aggressive with that, yes. If an enemy knows about mindsight the important minds can be drowned out in general mental noise (eg. an assassin in a marketplace), but odds are that anything the player needs to worry about will stick out like a sore thumb. There don't seem to be many counters to the ability beyond interfering with interpretation of the data or not being on the Material Plane at all (which might or might not work, given that neither the feat nor the special ability mention planar restrictions), which leads to all-or-nothing effectiveness of the ability.

another plane is considerably farther away than 100 feet, so that about covers that as far as mindsight is concerned. did you mean stuff like creatures using ethearlness spells or people on the ethereal plane? since they're still there (like a ghost) I think that still counts.

unless I missed something, the scouting guide doesn't actually give any sort of counter to mindsight, just mentions that it may have been intended to work only against stuff that was subject to mind-affecting and to take it if you can since it's good. regardless of this, it still works on int 1+ creatures (undead included) the illithid hate undead thing was from before LoM since back then, immune to mind-affecting meant they were immune to most of mindflayer tricks. but unless they're mindless, they're not immune to mindsight

[Gavinfoxx]

unless I missed something, the scouting guide doesn't actually give any sort of counter to mindsight, just mentions that it may have been intended to work only against stuff that was subject to mind-affecting and to take it if you can since it's good. regardless of this, it still works on int 1+ creatures (undead included) the illithid hate undead thing was from before LoM since back then, immune to mind-affecting meant they were immune to most of mindflayer tricks. but unless they're mindless, they're not immune to mindsight

It says that it is ambiguous, but there is flavor text which says it doesn't work on undead, and that to ask your DM if this flavor text is true for all undead. And then it says if that IS true, than you should become Necropolitan.

[Venger]

It says that it is ambiguous, but there is flavor text which says it doesn't work on undead, and that to ask your DM if this flavor text is true for all undead. And then it says if that IS true, than you should become Necropolitan.

right. going necropolitan is the answer to a lot of problems.

thanks for the guide, btw, it's got some cool stuff in there.

[Madara]

i tell my players that they will have to always tell me what their chars think?(that's too time consuming)..
keep in mind that the player that wants to play the MB doesn't wish to reveal his abilities to other PCs or even Players.

Its not a problem, using telepathy is a standard action, so its not "Always on".

As for the second part, you could try "What are you planning on doing?"(You could explain it to the players as wanting to be able to provide them with the info they need. I.E. "Oh, you want to jump on the wagon, its 5ft. high". In which case you'd know that they were planning on jumping onto the wagon) and "What do you think will happen?"