(PF) Help with the brute squad.

[Rift_Wolf]

I'm currently GMing a 10th level party who've had a price put out on them. Quite rightly, they've just laughed off the baseless accusations; at 10th level, they don't even fear the towns guards anymore. I need help putting together some bounty hunters that'll wipe the smiles off their faces.

I'm not looking to build someone specifically to kill them, so I'm not putting up character stats or anything else. The bounty hunters know the party is made of two paladins, a barbarian and a sorcerer, they favour melee (Two of them carry greatswords, two of them wear full-plate, and one of them has a penchant for cutting bits off of people, then leaving them alive to tell the story), the sorcerer favours enchantments and evocations, and one of the paladins has a small army at his beck and call (Leadership feat)

With that information, can anyone help me put together some 'bring them in alive' NPCs? I'm only using CRB and APG, no ultimate combat, magic or 3rd party. If possible, minimal magic. The bounty hunters should be a fair fight for a 10th level party.

[docnessuno]

Just a basic idea:

Level 8 ? Inquisitor (LG) of Torag
Black Powder Inquisition / Iconoclast

2 Level 8 Human Inquisitors (LN) of Torag
Imprisonment Inquisition

Level 10 Dwarf (Relentless, Stubborn) Inquisitor (LG) of Torag
Tactics Inquisition / Witch Hunter

Have fun with the teamwork feats used by an highly trained team :P

[stack]

Sap adept/sap master vivisectionist alchemists/scout rogues. scout 4 lets you sneak attack on a charge, treating the opponent as flat footed. Alchemist gives you all kinds of goodies and the sneak dice stack.

[Waker]

Here is a magic-lite team that you can send at the party. Try and make this three-man team around 12 or 13 to provide a good challenge without being too powerful.
Brawler Fighter- With bonuses to maneuvers, debuffing adjacent players attack and concentration while not even allowing 5ft adjustments, this guy is great to throw into the middle of a fight. Some feats to consider are: Combat Reflexes, Step Up, Following Step, Improved (Maneuver)
Zen Archer Monk- While the Brawler is keeping the party distracted, this guy will pepper them with a rain of arrows. Use him to keep the sorcerer from casting spells or whittle down high-threat targets.
Beastmaster Skirmisher Ranger- Between the Ranger and his animal companion(s), you can ensure that all the party members are involved in this fight. I would suggest the 2h weapon style to let him hit a bit harder. Hunter tricks to grab: Bolster Companion, Surprise Shift, Tangling Attack, Vengeance Strike

Consider having one or all of them utilize weapons with the Merciful weapon quality.

[Rift_Wolf]

Just a basic idea:

Level 8 ? Inquisitor (LG) of Torag
Black Powder Inquisition / Iconoclast

2 Level 8 Human Inquisitors (LN) of Torag
Imprisonment Inquisition

Level 10 Dwarf (Relentless, Stubborn) Inquisitor (LG) of Torag
Tactics Inquisition / Witch Hunter

Have fun with the teamwork feats used by an highly trained team :P

The setting, thus far, doesn't have guns (Black powder has been discovered, but it's currently in the 'thrown by rich alchemists' stage.), however a group of inquisitors would be fun to throw at the group. I tried orc inquisitors, it didn't go well (Possibly because I was tired and playing them like a doofus).

I like the idea of Dwarves; LG dwarves who've gotten the wrong end of the stick would be brilliant as belligerent and stubborn antagonists rather than 'They're evil so their murders are totally justified' antagonists. And I could explain their presence in the city easily enough.

I was going to just have a sorcerer do it, but this way feels less cheating-y. Thanks! :)

[Sudain]

1-2 Kolyarut will wipe the smiles off their faces. 3 to take them alive. Just play them smart.

As for why they were sent? They broke a promise or contract. From littering to murder the law is the law.

[Diarmuid]

Just as a curiosity, are these normal LG paladins? How have they gotten on the bad side of the town guards?

[doko239]

I know you said no Ultimate Combat, but this build is too funny not to mention:

Sniper Rogue w/ Sap Adept, Sap Master, Point-Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot and whatever other feats you like, plus the Hunter's Eye trait. (Minimum rogue level for the above is 15th; drop Imp Precise Shot if you wanna lower him a bit)

Give him a +X Merciful Distance Composite Longbow, and Sniper Goggles. Have him use Blunt Arrows.

Base range increment on a Composite Longbow is 110 feet. Distance doubles that, making it 220 feet. The Hunter's Eye trait allows you to ignore penalties for the first range increment, so you can fire up to 440 feet without penalty. Far Shot lessens the penalty for increments to -1, so to fire 660 feet is a -1 to hit, and -1 for each subsequent increment, up to -9 for 2200 feet.

Merciful weapon causes you to deal nonlethal with your arrows; Blunt arrows deal Bludgeoning damage instead of Piercing. Sap Adept and Sap Master both give enormous bonuses to sneak attack when using a nonlethal bludgeoning weapon; +2 damage per sneak die, and double the sneak dice if the target is flat-footed.

Finally, Sniper's Goggles allow us to sneak attack from ANY RANGE.

Assuming Lv15 as above, this means that, vs flat-footed, you'll be able to hit for 1d8+17d6+32 nonlethal damage, before enhancement bonuses, str bonus, etc., from up to 440 feet away with no attack penalty. With +11 BAB, you'll have 3 shots per round; assuming you win initiative, that's 4 shots on flat-footed targets for enough damage to potentially put them down in one hit.

Start by taking out the Paladins if you feel confident in hitting them; they have no other source of reliable healing, and at an average of 96 damage/hit they should go down fast. Next target is obviously the Sorcerer; shouldn't be much of an issue at that range. KO Barb at your leisure. Mop up the mooks and collect your bounty.

[Rift_Wolf]

Just as a curiosity, are these normal LG paladins? How have they gotten on the bad side of the town guards?

The paladins haven't thus far. The barbarian, on the other hand, got arrested trying to break into the mansion (That they were already inside in the daytime), then broke out of jail by threatening to tear a guards arm off, grabbing the key off him, throwing both the jailors into his cell, then just leaving.
The city as a whole is True Neutral; it's an 'every man for himself' place, like a medieval Las Vegas where the mayor is tied up with a crime syndicate. The paladins so far have brow-beat the mayor for her sinful ways, but have been too busy stopping demon cults to do much more.

I'd say they're both lower-case LG; they tend to turn a blind eye to the other two's crimes.

I just have to practice rping stubbornness. I've already worked out how the inquisitors will justify the paladins being with two criminals; the sorcerer has a known tendency to misuse enchantments, they'd probably think the paladins were either delusional fighters or under a devilish enchantment.

[Rift_Wolf]

I know you said no Ultimate Combat, but this build is too funny not to mention:

Sniper Rogue w/ Sap Adept, Sap Master, Point-Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot and whatever other feats you like, plus the Hunter's Eye trait. (Minimum rogue level for the above is 15th; drop Imp Precise Shot if you wanna lower him a bit)

Give him a +X Merciful Distance Composite Longbow, and Sniper Goggles. Have him use Blunt Arrows.

Base range increment on a Composite Longbow is 110 feet. Distance doubles that, making it 220 feet. The Hunter's Eye trait allows you to ignore penalties for the first range increment, so you can fire up to 440 feet without penalty. Far Shot lessens the penalty for increments to -1, so to fire 660 feet is a -1 to hit, and -1 for each subsequent increment, up to -9 for 2200 feet.

Merciful weapon causes you to deal nonlethal with your arrows; Blunt arrows deal Bludgeoning damage instead of Piercing. Sap Adept and Sap Master both give enormous bonuses to sneak attack when using a nonlethal bludgeoning weapon; +2 damage per sneak die, and double the sneak dice if the target is flat-footed.

Finally, Sniper's Goggles allow us to sneak attack from ANY RANGE.

Assuming Lv15 as above, this means that, vs flat-footed, you'll be able to hit for 1d8+17d6+32 nonlethal damage, before enhancement bonuses, str bonus, etc., from up to 440 feet away with no attack penalty. With +11 BAB, you'll have 3 shots per round; assuming you win initiative, that's 4 shots on flat-footed targets for enough damage to potentially put them down in one hit.

Start by taking out the Paladins if you feel confident in hitting them; they have no other source of reliable healing, and at an average of 96 damage/hit they should go down fast. Next target is obviously the Sorcerer; shouldn't be much of an issue at that range. KO Barb at your leisure. Mop up the mooks and collect your bounty.

I've done something similar with a Ranger who they might run foul of; As far as I can tell, there's no range penalty on Pinpoint Targeting, and rangers get it at 10th level :)

[Arbane]

wait, wait, the PCs include two _paladins_?

Send an unarmed level 1 peasant to politely ask them to come answer the charges against them in a fair court.

The resulting intra-PC argument should kill half of them, easily. :D

(And I see that won't work so well. Drat...)

[Rift_Wolf]

wait, wait, the PCs include two _paladins_?

Send an unarmed level 1 peasant to politely ask them to come answer the charges against them in a fair court.

The resulting intra-PC argument should kill half of them, easily. :D

(And I see that won't work so well. Drat...)

The barbarian's tried to outright murder unarmed bystanders before (They were hassling him for change, giving a nearby rogue a chance to shank him.), and the paladins didn't do anything about it. I've put together a group of LG dwarf inquisitors (Who happened to be in the area on a diplomatic mission) who'll try to take the party alive (Merciful weapons, Improved Overrunning to knock enemies prone). If the party tries to kill them without remorse (No attempts at talking their way out, attacking for lethal damage) they'll be in for a surprise when they find out the paladins in the south they've been completely ignoring have taken over....

[u-b]

I'm currently GMing a 10th level party who've had a price put out on them. ...
What price we're talking about? Because that would affect who would be willing to hunt them, what they will be willing to spend etc.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I would say a party of ranger/rogues as bounty hunters. Say, three of them. 2 of them melee with TWF and sneak attack, using each other as flanking buddies. The third is an archer, straight ranger with a Boon Companion small cat or wolf. (which would be large by level 7 with Boon Companion.) If you go with the large wolf, make it a mount, and watch the party having fun trying to catch it while catching several arrows every round.

Give them all Favored Enemy: Human, or whatever the party is mostly composed of, Favored Terrain: wherever you will be fighting the party.

Im pretty sure that would ruin their day, and there isnt much for you to keep track of: not much magic or /round abilities to worry about.

[Rift_Wolf]

What price we're talking about? Because that would affect who would be willing to hunt them, what they will be willing to spend etc.

10k alive,however the poster warns that they're unnaturally strong and have a sorcerer, so that's likely to deter most have-a-go heroes. The main reason the whole city hasn't turned them in is because a) most of the city knows and rightly fears them, and b) the bounty was put out by a noble in another city, so most people within the city are defaulting to 'someone else's problem'.

[mattie_p]

If 3.5 is legal and you don't want to have the Brute Squad spend cash on merciful weapons, give them all a 1-2 level dip in Crimson Scourge PrC from Cityscape. Full BAB, fort/ref good saves. One free exotic weapon proficiency in non-lethal weapons like bola or net. Level 1 grants Kid gloves, an extraordinary ability to do non-lethal damage with any weapon without accepting a -4 penalty to hit. Normal flight arrows from 400 yards? Subdual damage. Level 2 grants some kinda bonus to using urban tracking.

[Zubrowka74]

...Have him use Blunt Arrows.

(...)

Merciful weapon causes you to deal nonlethal with your arrows; Blunt arrows deal Bludgeoning damage instead of Piercing. Sap Adept and Sap Master both give enormous bonuses to sneak attack when using a nonlethal bludgeoning weapon; +2 damage per sneak die, and double the sneak dice if the target is flat-footed.

(...)

Assuming Lv15 as above, this means that, vs flat-footed, you'll be able to hit for 1d8+17d6+32 nonlethal damage, ...

I don't know if this is covered by RAW but I certainly know I would'nt allow this to work 100 % in my game :


... two of them wear full-plate, ...

[mregecko]

1-2 Kolyarut will wipe the smiles off their faces. 3 to take them alive. Just play them smart.

As for why they were sent? They broke a promise or contract. From littering to murder the law is the law.

I have never understood why people find this scary. They are way understatted for CR 12.

Fly. That's all you have to do to make them completely obsolete. By 10th level, every party should have a means of flight (whether a perma-flight item, or potions, or a sorc with flight / mass fly [in 3.5]).

The invis can be overcome with glitterdust, see invis, invis purge, all those usual suspects...

IDK. They just never scared me.

-- G

[Sudain]

In a straight up slugfest, your right they are under powered. However these guys are more than that, and need to be used as such. Hence, play them smart. :)

Social - Suggestion, Disguise Self, Geas. If the party doesn't pay attention to the social repercussions of attacking an old lady(Disguise Self) they may find that the towns folk may have been Suggested to protect her at all costs(Maybe they think she gave them cookies?). If the party's not smart the old lady could go invisible in the crowd, leaving them to butcher the town(Again, assuming the players don't stop). Or use the crowd as willing meat sheilds to provide protection/cover. Evil on their part? Possibly. But this all about law; not good and evil.

If they leave themselves vulnerable at night: Invisabilty + geas.

Ranged - Enervation Ray (Su) - Has a range of 200 feet. Just keep blasting it. No save - they will want to close to melee range. And if they just fly off; it'll track them down to try again, possibly while they are busy with something else.

Melee - Vampiric Touch to stay alive(~21 hp, plus DR, and fast healing should buy them 1-2 turns of extra life)

Saves - Hold Monster/Suggestion to eliminate the barbarian. Sadly the paladins have great saves.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm

[JadePhoenix]

Fly. That's all you have to do to make them completely obsolete. By 10th level, every party should have a means of flight (whether a perma-flight item, or potions, or a sorc with flight / mass fly [in 3.5]).

That's why they ambush you in a cave.

[Rift_Wolf]

I have never understood why people find this scary. They are way understatted for CR 12.

Fly. That's all you have to do to make them completely obsolete. By 10th level, every party should have a means of flight (whether a perma-flight item, or potions, or a sorc with flight / mass fly [in 3.5]).

The invis can be overcome with glitterdust, see invis, invis purge, all those usual suspects...

IDK. They just never scared me.

-- G

They have no capability of flight. No spells, no magic items, nothing. The sorcerer chose words of power 'to make himself more versatile', but it seems more like the words of power allow him to cheese or suck in a multitude of ways. Incorporeal creatures? No magic missile. Falling? No feather fall. Teleporting creatures? No dimensional anchor. House fire? No create water. I threw a couple of harpy sorcerers at them, they died out of pity more from any kind of damage.

But at least he can force someone to take a fortitude save instead of a will save! The kicker is his character cannot die; he threatened to rage-quit when the party were talking about reincarnating him as opposed to raising. If it was one of the melee players I could understand it (Even though the barbarian was gung-ho about killing himself and getting reincarnated while the others took in his body to collect the bounty), but he's a sorcerer. It doesn't really matter if you're a human, half-elf or kobold.

[Rift_Wolf]

If 3.5 is legal and you don't want to have the Brute Squad spend cash on merciful weapons, give them all a 1-2 level dip in Crimson Scourge PrC from Cityscape. Full BAB, fort/ref good saves. One free exotic weapon proficiency in non-lethal weapons like bola or net. Level 1 grants Kid gloves, an extraordinary ability to do non-lethal damage with any weapon without accepting a -4 penalty to hit. Normal flight arrows from 400 yards? Subdual damage. Level 2 grants some kinda bonus to using urban tracking.

I'm not allowing 3.5, there's too many extra rules, level dipping, min/maxing, munchkinning, splatbook arms racing and poorly worded spells for me to GM a game that allows 'ALL' the 3.5. I'm not even really allowing the PF splatbooks beyond APG. It's my first game so I wanted to keep it simple.

[Larpus]

From personal experience, the best way to get the party to fear a group of enemies is have a group that is as numerous as they are (so swarming a single enemy is rather dangerous) and is capable of not only dishing out damage, but rather give them a run for their money with status effects.

So for the bounty hunters, I'd throw in one or two "control" guys with ways to lock up/mess with the Sorcerer and Barbarian, from the top of my head, I'd say make it an Alchemist with control-based discoveries, there's blinding, deafening and/or nauseating for dealing with the Sorcerer; confusion for the Barbarian and concealment through fog to keep them oblivious to the threat (all that without actual spells).

On top of that, some competent melee guys, such as Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager can get them busy due to DR and if he's got Pounce through Beast Totem, really make them cower), a LG Cavalier might be an interesting option to mess with the Paladins' minds, as mentioned a Vivisectionist Alchemist operates similar to Rogue, but can be much more durable, dangerous and versatile due to mutagen, infusions and discoveries.

I wouldn't make it an ambush though (as in, sudden attack in the middle of the night), so the players can feel that they had a run for their money without "cheap" tactics such as surprise attacks.

That's what I'd do at least.

[Blyte]

4 rangers with favored enemy human, and merciful+bane(human) longbows.

shot on the run, spread out.. round one drop the sorc.

following rounds kite and drop the others.

[Slipperychicken]

A priest from the Paladin's church comes over to warn the Paladin about associating with "thugs and bandits", and that this may result in Falling.


Wrathful Healing weapons. Heal half your damage against living creatures. Tank harder. Herp Derp this is PF


Paralyzing or Sudden Stunning are good flavorful enhancements for bounty-hunter "bring-em-in-alive" tactics.

Things like Tanglefoot bags also help slow enemies down. A ranger with readied actions to shoot the Sorcerer when he tries to cast a spell.

[u-b]

10k alive,however the poster warns that they're unnaturally strong and have a sorcerer, so that's likely to deter most have-a-go heroes. The main reason the whole city hasn't turned them in is because a) most of the city knows and rightly fears them, and b) the bounty was put out by a noble in another city, so most people within the city are defaulting to 'someone else's problem'.

Well, if they are to be taken alive AND the hunters are not permitted to take all their stuff AND they are "unnaturally strong" level 10 band, this 10k reward will most likely attrack small-investment safe-mode operating bounty hunters, most likely professionals. The fact of the reward might also attract something paladinish, but still not foolish. So, let's try to guess some workable tactics:

1. Two level 7 casters in the city with one having Nonlethal Substitution, one having Dimension Door for them both; starting surprise round with Black Tentacles AND Solid Fog, following with Nerveskitters, Nonlethal Fireball and Web, following with another Nonlethal Fireball and Slow or some such, following with offering surrender and dismissing of Black Tentacles. If things would not go as intended, Dimension Door across the wall / other harb-to-walk-past area to the horses and ride really fast really far.
2. Two level 7 griffon-riding paladins and one griffon-riding cleric, all doing their usual thing of catching criminals, complete with merciful lances, greatreach bracers, charge-related feats, longbows, merciful xxx-bane arrows (magebane, partybane), nets, buffs and resistances active, Blood Wind and such. These would prefer operating on a road through an open field.
3. One level 4 rogue with two level 1 friends using some sleeping poison on their food/drink in a tavern before it's served, staying well away, hoping it would be enough and ready to grab person(s) affected the sorcerer and ride with him to other town to sell him for some part of the reward in case the rest leave them sleeping and go to the kitchen to investigate or some such.

upd: this does not look like minimal magic fair fight, but I think this is how bounty hunting works - no sane man intends to lose his life or anything.