Legend of Korra II: Brought to you by Flameo Instant Noodles!

[Brother Oni]

The Noodliest Noodles in the United Republic!

This is a thread for the discussion of the new Legend of Korra show, where the eponymous heroine is the spiritual reincarnation of the Avatar, a being with the ability to control, or bend, four elements, and will bring balance to the world.

Or not, if leader of the Equalists and chi blocker Amon has anything to say about it.

However, most of the fandom appear to be more interested in which one of her pro-bending team mates Korra will end up with, rather than something minor like saving Republic City.

Previous threads:

1: Legend of Korra: Will it Bend! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239010)

[Xondoure]

Ooh shiny! Anyone else have a sudden craving for noodles?

[thubby]

new ships, same great shipping insanity!

[Soras Teva Gee]

Ooh shiny! Anyone else have a sudden craving for noodles?

I've got one for cactus juice.

[Brother Oni]

Had wonton noodles for lunch. :smallbiggrin:

Bit curious about what Northern Water Tribe noodles could be composed of though - most grains won't grow that far north, so the most likely vegetable component would be kelp or seaweed, potentially giving a very different texture to what you'd expect.

[Seerow]

Had wonton noodles for lunch. :smallbiggrin:

Bit curious about what Northern Water Tribe noodles could be composed of though - most grains won't grow that far north, so the most likely vegetable component would be kelp or seaweed, potentially giving a very different texture to what you'd expect.

I was personally assuming sea-weed.

[Silverraptor]

Ooh shiny! Anyone else have a sudden craving for noodles?

I dun noe wha yu're talkim abot. *Sluurrrpppp*

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3kn2rfFhy1qffn1vo1_250.gif
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3kn2rfFhy1qffn1vo2_250.gif
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3kn2rfFhy1qffn1vo3_250.gif
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3kn2rfFhy1qffn1vo4_250.gif

[dehro]

Why is Korra dressed like she's on the North Pole when she's in much milder climate?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Why is Korra dressed like she's on the North Pole when she's in much milder climate?

Respectfully she isn't. She wearing a sleeveless top and loose pants, he only real warm item is that fur wrap about her hips. And tell me how often that sweatshirt tied around your waist helps you out. She started with the more typical fur jacket when she was still in Southern Tribe territory.

[Brother Oni]

Why is Korra dressed like she's on the North Pole when she's in much milder climate?

Wasn't it snowing earlier in that episode? Maybe that's the only cold weather gear she has - Water Tribe arctic gear which is overkill for the relatively mild Republic City Winters?

[Zevox]

Respectfully she isn't. She wearing a sleeveless top and loose pants, he only real warm item is that fur wrap about her hips. And tell me how often that sweatshirt tied around your waist helps you out. She started with the more typical fur jacket when she was still in Southern Tribe territory.
I think he means in the images Silverraptor posted, which were from her date with Bolin.

Zevox

[BRC]

Respectfully she isn't. She wearing a sleeveless top and loose pants, he only real warm item is that fur wrap about her hips. And tell me how often that sweatshirt tied around your waist helps you out. She started with the more typical fur jacket when she was still in Southern Tribe territory.

In the clip above she seems to be wearing full scale Water Tribe winter gear. Though IRRC an earlier scene showed snow, so maybe its winter out and she just didn't bother to take her coat off.

Mind you, she also seems to wear her Sleeveless top/Fur around the waist outfit all the time, even in bed. Maybe she just doesn't have any other outfits. Mind you, it's hardly unusual in animation for characters to wear the same clothes all the time outside of special occasions.

[LordShotGun]

Watching old samurai jack episodes when I realize that I recognize Aku's voice! The same guy that did master Iroh's voice is the voice of Aku.

[Soras Teva Gee]

In the clip above she seems to be wearing full scale Water Tribe winter gear. Though IRRC an earlier scene showed snow, so maybe its winter out and she just didn't bother to take her coat off.

Mind you, she also seems to wear her Sleeveless top/Fur around the waist outfit all the time, even in bed. Maybe she just doesn't have any other outfits. Mind you, it's hardly unusual in animation for characters to wear the same clothes all the time outside of special occasions.

Ahhh I never looked in the spoiler and thought it was a general question. Yeah I guess it was supposed to be cold out that night or something.

And even for averting limited wardrobe I think we can draw a line at having multiple jackets for climate considerations. I know I have one that's breathes nicely for an fall evening, but is hardy enough to keep me comfy in freezing temps.

[Brother Oni]

Watching old samurai jack episodes when I realize that I recognize Aku's voice! The same guy that did master Iroh's voice is the voice of Aku.

There's a tribute to Mako Iwamatsu in the Tales from Ba Sing Se episode where Iroh gives offerings to his son, and I believe Mako in the new series is named after the late actor.

[Randomguy]

I think Korra's had many more outfit changes then the last series, which was already known for changing the character's appearances.

So far we've had: Winter clothes, Firebending armour, normal watertribe clothes, Probending armour, air-nomad clothes, nonbender disguises, formal wear and elite strike-team armour.

In comparison, I think Aang's only been shown in around 4 outfits throughout the entire show: 2 kinds of Air nomad travel clothes, Air nomad formal clothes (at the end of the show) and his firenation outfit.

[Silverraptor]

Are people really starting a clothing discussion over some pictures I posted for fun?:smallconfused:

[kpenguin]

Are people really starting a clothing discussion over some pictures I posted for fun?:smallconfused:

Yes, yes they are :smallbiggrin:

[Silverraptor]

Yes, yes they are :smallbiggrin:

Well... Alright then.
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjlubLtHY1rn1xxfo1_100.gif

[Lord Raziere]

Thread titles reminds me…

"I'm Avatar Aang/Korra, and this is my favorite place in Republic City"

also, great crossover idea:

Avatar Shepard.

[Dienekes]

Well... Alright then.
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxjlubLtHY1rn1xxfo1_100.gif

And now I have to go watch Justice League: Wild Cards.

Thanks. I had stuff I wanted to do today.

[LordShotGun]

Thread titles reminds me…

"I'm Avatar Aang/Korra, and this is my favorite place in Republic City"

also, great crossover idea:

Avatar Shepard.

Avatar IN SPACE....Sounds like fun... IN SPACE. Except that starship combat would make water bending difficult since all fluids are in tubes (unless you bring it with you), earth bending is impossible (except for metal benders I suppose), air bending would be lackluster since everyone has magnetic boots (and wouldn't be able to block the dust sized bullets going at partial light speed).


Firebending would be the only REAL threat since fire is still friggin fire and lightning bending would really **** up some electronics.

Anyway. Sorry for deconstructing your post. :smallredface:

I just saw it and WHAM I had so many ideas and problems with my ideas.

[Zevox]

Thread titles reminds me…

"I'm Avatar Aang/Korra, and this is my favorite place in Republic City"

also, great crossover idea:

Avatar Shepard.
I'm actually currently playing through ME3 with a Shepard based on Avatar Kyoshi (I created her some time ago, after discovering that Jennifer Hale had done the voice acting for Kyoshi). It's quite fun. She's a Sentinel (seemed the best equivalent for an Avatar, combining multiple power types as it does), and I have a good set of powers for simulating bending: Throw for airbending, Cryo Blast for waterbending, Overload for lightning (firebending), and my bonus power is Stasis, which I figure is a decent equivalent of trapping enemies with earthbending. Though I could switch Stasis for Incendiary Grenades (firebending), which was my bonus power of choice in ME2.

Zevox

[Soras Teva Gee]

I think Korra's had many more outfit changes then the last series, which was already known for changing the character's appearances.

So far we've had: Winter clothes, Firebending armour, normal watertribe clothes, Probending armour, air-nomad clothes, nonbender disguises, formal wear and elite strike-team armour.

In comparison, I think Aang's only been shown in around 4 outfits throughout the entire show: 2 kinds of Air nomad travel clothes, Air nomad formal clothes (at the end of the show) and his firenation outfit.

I was thinking how Asami had three outfits in one episode so yeah the show is doing pretty good all considered.

[Fjolnir]

There's a tribute to Mako Iwamatsu in the Tales from Ba Sing Se episode where Iroh gives offerings to his son, and I believe Mako in the new series is named after the late actor.

I think the series creators stated in the pre-series information that Mako is named as a tribute to Mako Iwamatsu specifically.

[Absol197]

In comparison, I think Aang's only been shown in around 4 outfits throughout the entire show: 2 kinds of Air nomad travel clothes, Air nomad formal clothes (at the end of the show) and his firenation outfit.

That's not quite true: Aang also had his earthbender outfit that he wore during the Blind Bandit episode. But you're basically right; Aang had a total of five unique outfits over 61 episodes, it's been 5 so far and Korra has had eight.

[Anarion]

I've got one for cactus juice.

Might want to hold off on that one if you have anything else you need to accomplish in the next few hours.


I think he means in the images Silverraptor posted, which were from her date with Bolin.

Zevox

Maybe Korra's water tribe coat is also her dressiest clothing at the moment, not counting that super formal dress that she wore at the high class party. She wanted to wear something nice for the date, so that was her choice for dressy but not formal evening gown.


Yes, yes they are :smallbiggrin:

What are we supposed to talk about? Strategies for saving Republic City? Boring. I want to know the juicy details of teenage to young adult dress customs in a made up world of kung-fu and 1920s industry.

[Brother Oni]

That's not quite true: Aang also had his earthbender outfit that he wore during the Blind Bandit episode. But you're basically right; Aang had a total of five unique outfits over 61 episodes, it's been 5 so far and Korra has had eight.

Insert typical generic sexist comment here? :smalltongue:

That said, Aaang's relatively few changes of clothes could be due to a monk's asceticism as an in-universe explanation, compared to a more realistic lack of available designs as BRC mentioned.

[LordShotGun]

Insert typical generic sexist comment here? :smalltongue:

That said, Aaang's relatively few changes of clothes could be due to a monk's asceticism as an in-universe explanation, compared to a more realistic lack of available designs as BRC mentioned.

Or that they were traveling by air bison almost the entire show and thus weight/space for extra clothing may be limited.

[Anarion]

Or that they were traveling by air bison almost the entire show and thus weight/space for extra clothing may be limited.

It's probably this considering that Toph, Katara, and Sokka also didn't change clothes all that often. Korra simply lives in more luxury than the original gaang.

[Dr.Epic]

I hope there's an episode that just about Meelo being completely Meelo. The episode will have no point and would just be comedic relief...and it will be AWESOME!!!:smallbiggrin:

[kpenguin]

What are we supposed to talk about? Strategies for saving Republic City? Boring. I want to know the juicy details of teenage to young adult dress customs in a made up world of kung-fu and 1920s industry.

Anarion is officially the best.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w118/kpenguin222/kippy_approval.png

Mmmm. Any late 19th-early 20th century fashion officianados out there? How well researched are those outfits?

[BRC]

Speaking of fashion, I found it funny how the Chi Blockers In-Training all wore masks over their faces even though (Theoretically) There was nobody they were supposed to be hiding their identity from.

Maybe Amon started a whole "Not showing your face" Craze, and the baby chi-blockers wanted to look like the cool kids.

[Dr.Epic]

Speaking of fashion, I found it funny how the Chi Blockers In-Training all wore masks over their faces even though (Theoretically) There was nobody they were supposed to be hiding their identity from.

Maybe Amon started a whole "Not showing your face" Craze, and the baby chi-blockers wanted to look like the cool kids.

Or they are training to fight/see/hear/move around with something covering their face possibly obscuring their vision/hearing.

[Ashen Lilies]

Considering that they seem to make frequent use of gas grenades, it may also simply be a practical choice, for safety purposes. :smallwink:

[AtlanteanTroll]

I am by no means an expert, but her disguise looks pretty flapperesque to me.

Disguise
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUgaJtWwD03GS8mgn70t5a8JmK2FtJq _bL2bikspEIl1sH9_6cFkznEZKr_w

Flapper(s)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-N7_nedkQ8TE/TwoRspsLZjI/AAAAAAAAAyg/bFTDi1RCRmk/s1600/24908406.jpg

[Flickerdart]

I've been thinking...

Metalbending works by bending ore impurities inside the metal, right? Toph used her tremorsense to find these impurities in random metal and bend it. But if the metal being bent was prepared to proper specifications, and the bender knew which points to target, it would be way easier to metalbend. It's therefore reasonable to assume that the metalcops don't necessarily have all of Toph's abilities, and instead just practice with their equipment a lot.

[Dr.Epic]

I am by no means an expert, but her disguise looks pretty flapperesque to me.

Disguise
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUgaJtWwD03GS8mgn70t5a8JmK2FtJq _bL2bikspEIl1sH9_6cFkznEZKr_w

Flapper(s)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-N7_nedkQ8TE/TwoRspsLZjI/AAAAAAAAAyg/bFTDi1RCRmk/s1600/24908406.jpg

I thought that was the point.:smallconfused:

[Silverraptor]

And now I have to go watch Justice League: Wild Cards.

Thanks. I had stuff I wanted to do today.

Sorry. What can I say? I like popcorn!:smallbiggrin:

[Brother Oni]

Mmmm. Any late 19th-early 20th century fashion officianados out there? How well researched are those outfits?

I believe 1920s Shanghai was a very odd place fashion-wise. The forward looking and fashion conscious young folk were wearing western attire such as you would find in the US while the older generation and more traditionalist (or just plain poor) people wore traditional Chinese clothing.

A number of traditional designs were updated for this western influence - the recognisable cheongsam came out of this period (it was more figure hugging and better styled for the female form).

As far as I can remember, this is generally mirrored in Korra - most of the older folk wear clothing that would be recognisable from the previous series (exception being Hiroshi Sato) with Korra doing the same, while the newer folk wear updated designs.

Mako and Bolin wear updated stuff when they can - I believe the undervests they wear when they're in their room are a western/modernised influence.
I don't remember anything like that in more traditional settings - men either went topless or a very loose tunic, while women wore a red vest/hankerchief that was tied with string at the back (the name escapes me at the moment).

If you want something more accurate, I'll have to rewatch the episodes again, paying more attention to the clothing.

I'll warn you that I'm a history buff not a fashion fan, so take any and all observations I make with a pinch of salt. :smalltongue:.

[Weirdlet]

Re: Korra wearing her parka-jacket in the restaurant- if you'll notice, the restaurant is open to the air with only a short curtain for a door, on an evening when there's been snow blowing about.

[Knaight]

It's probably this considering that Toph, Katara, and Sokka also didn't change clothes all that often. Korra simply lives in more luxury than the original gaang.

It's much easier to own stuff when you don't have to carry it all around with you when traveling long distances by foot, even if said traveling is interspersed with easier traveling by flying bison. Korra has a house, that she can have more clothes makes sense. Moreover, if one looks at industrialization and mechanization, looms change drastically. Textile prices plummeted in areas where mechanized looms produced them in real life, and Republic City is likely to have something similar.

[dehro]

Re: Korra wearing her parka-jacket in the restaurant- if you'll notice, the restaurant is open to the air with only a short curtain for a door, on an evening when there's been snow blowing about.

yes, but she's from the frickin' North Pole..she should call anything but heavy snowstorm a breeze and basically go sleeveless.
I was wondering about it because I remember how I would walk about in a t-shirt in late november, here in Italy, because I was used to living in colder climates and had not yet acclimatized to the overal warmer weather.


I hope there's an episode that just about Meelo being completely Meelo. The episode will have no point and would just be comedic relief...and it will be AWESOME!!!:smallbiggrin:
I want a Meelo/Rallo Tubbs crossover.

[Morty]

Speaking of fashion, I found it funny how the Chi Blockers In-Training all wore masks over their faces even though (Theoretically) There was nobody they were supposed to be hiding their identity from.

Maybe Amon started a whole "Not showing your face" Craze, and the baby chi-blockers wanted to look like the cool kids.

Emphasis on "theoretically". A certain level of paranoia is expected from a group like the Equalists.

[Brother Oni]

yes, but she's from the frickin' North Pole..she should call anything but heavy snowstorm a breeze and basically go sleeveless.
I was wondering about it because I remember how I would walk about in a t-shirt in late november, here in Italy, because I was used to living in colder climates and had not yet acclimatized to the overal warmer weather.


Maybe Korra just doesn't like the cold? While I've seen pictures of nordic folk walking around in a t-shirt at -20C, cold tolerance is fairly individual.
There's a Scots lass here at work, who hates the cold and pretty much moved to southern England to get away from it.


Emphasis on "theoretically". A certain level of paranoia is expected from a group like the Equalists.

Maybe they were operating like a terrorist cell? They were hiding their identities from each other, so that if captured they couldn't inform on the other members under interrogation?

[John Cribati]

I've been thinking...

Metalbending works by bending ore impurities inside the metal, right? Toph used her tremorsense to find these impurities in random metal and bend it. But if the metal being bent was prepared to proper specifications, and the bender knew which points to target, it would be way easier to metalbend. It's therefore reasonable to assume that the metalcops don't necessarily have all of Toph's abilities, and instead just practice with their equipment a lot.

I heard somewhere that it's the impurities in metal that make it strong. I'm not too sure of that myself, though.

Another thing: If you took some Lava and cooled it down, you'd get perfectly bendable rock, right?

Most metal ores come straight from the ground, and there'd be no problem with someone bending those in their natural states. And in order to create a sword/armor/whatever from that ore, it essentially gets turned into "lava" and hammered while it cools. And honestly, what does hammering do exactly to change it? Nothing much.

[Ashen Lilies]

If by 'nothing much' you mean 'change the entire molecular structure of the rock into something completely different with different properties' then yeah, you're pretty much exactly right.

[Imperial Psycho]

Anyway, you don't just take ore and forge it. It's first turned into metal by removing the impurities (and mixing it with other metals or some such if you make an alloy)

The ore really bears very little resemblance to the final metal in lots of ways.

[Grey Watcher]

Personally, I love that the most recent episode might as well be title The Shipping Episode.

I was kind of surprised at how quickly the burned through both this love triangle thing and the pro-bending plot. Seriously, one more match and, one way or another, the Fire Ferrets Future Industries Fire Ferrets pro-bending plot is effectively over!

Also: Is Bolin never allowed any dignity whatsoever? Myth confirmed!

(This actually annoys me somewhat, I feel like Bolin was introduced as the happy-go-lucky, carefree brother, but was overall, y'know, competent, grounded, and generally more even tempered than his brooding older brother. But the very next episode he's quickly reduced to a blubbering, incompetent goofball whose only role seems to make Mako look even cooler and edgier by comparison.)

[Soras Teva Gee]

Mmmm. Any late 19th-early 20th century fashion officianados out there? How well researched are those outfits?

I haven't seen flapper dresses (yet) so that exhausts my knowledge of period specific fashion. Also a fair bit of fashion from the period is still appropriate today if less broadly.

Though I think we have an obvious variant with girls in pants, which we see on Asami's biker outfit and the probending uniforms. Quite aside from Korra's Water Tribe outfit. I'm less sure but I think Asami casual outfit is probably a bit too modern but I really have no idea what appropriate skirt lengths would be so it might fit. And she's probably a cutting edge fashionista anyways.

(On a side note there totally needs to be an 'Asami befriends Korra by taking her shopping' episode for maximum hilarity. Also Korra should wear a tux at some point)

The mixing of modern and traditional side by side is very period appropriate as befits a transition period. However I've never seen 'fusion' styles (Hiroshi ornamented jacket for example) before which I suspect we can attest to a lack of Western superiority pressures.

Also way to colorful especially on men, but that comes with the medium as much as anything.


yes, but she's from the frickin' North Pole..she should call anything but heavy snowstorm a breeze and basically go sleeveless.
I was wondering about it because I remember how I would walk about in a t-shirt in late november, here in Italy, because I was used to living in colder climates and had not yet acclimatized to the overal warmer weather.

I have the same dissonance from just from growing up in New England and it took until mid-December on a windy night in Rhodes to get me to wear a jacket in the Mediterranean.

Yeah Korra should be complaining about how hot Republic City is but then again I don't know that our poles have ever been played as quite as cold as they should be in the show to start with.

Realism aside though storywise it would just be a running gag which I'll just shrug at.

[BRC]

(This actually annoys me somewhat, I feel like Bolin was introduced as the happy-go-lucky, carefree brother, but was overall, y'know, competent, grounded, and generally more even tempered than his brooding older brother. But the very next episode he's quickly reduced to a blubbering, incompetent goofball whose only role seems to make Mako look even cooler and edgier by comparison.)
Eh, only in that he showed emotion when something bad happened. Being upset when you see your crush kissing your brother isn't exactly a glaring character flaw. Actually, he comes across the best in the episode.

[Person_Man]

I for one am in favor of Amon's Equalist movement.

I am in favor of democracy and equality of opportunity. Every person, regardless of their ethnic background or wealth or bending ability, is entitled to equal representation and participation in government. The United Republic of Nations is not a Republic. It is an oligarchy, run by representatives of the Earth Kingdom, Fire Nation, Air Nation, and both the Northern and Southern Water Tribes. The Earth Kingdom and Fire Nations are monarchies. The Water Tribes are tribal chiefdoms. Their are precisely four Air Nomads in the world, and yet they have the same representation on the council as thousands (millions?) of Earth nation citizens. There are zero representatives for the residents of the United Republic itself. There are zero representatives for non-benders, who form the majority of the population. And it's unclear how any of the representatives are chosen. Or if those representatives have any concern for the poverty, crime, and inequality in Republic City.

Also, the chi blockers totally kick butt. I would totally join them to put the beatdown on the ineffectual whiny crying Avatar.

[Soras Teva Gee]

We already had that argument, you're going to have to try harder. As about the only thing that's been added is we can all but confirm the council is entirely made up of benders.

[Loxagn]

DEMOCRACY IS NON-NEGOTIABLE.

Which is why they don't seem to be portraying Amon as an outright villain like they did Ozai. He has genuinely well-meaning goals, but he's going about them entirely the wrong way, responding with terrorist-like actions and the (frankly terrifying to any bender) habit of literally depriving people of a portion of who they are.

Those with Bending aren't responding negatively to Amon because he wants equal rights for non-benders. They're responding negatively because he's trying to take the rights of benders away.

[John Cribati]

I am in favor of democracy and equality of opportunity.

Except Amon's rhetoric was mostly "benders are war-mongering d-bags and we need to get rid of all of them."

[Lord Raziere]

And here is where Different Cultural Values and such come in: Your looking at Bender world from an ethnocentric perspective, through the lense of where you grew up, which won't be any help at all.

Instead, think Cultural Relativism:
Look, In their world, Bending Is Important. The citizens are used to Bending being in their everyday lives. They probably can't imagine life without it, or at least would imagine it as barbarism/uncivilized. Airbending being in short supply is a HUGE PROBLEM. To the Benders, Amon isn't some herald of equality, he is a liar manipulating the people to take away the most important tools in the world that makes it great and destroy civilization as we know it, and furthermore a terrorizing monster who can't see all the positive effects of Bending because he is blinded by all its flaws.
I'm actually betting the Amon people are a minority in the city. Not everyone is willing to change the status quo at great significant risk that they might fail due to not having the force to do so, plus the fact that they need to feed themselves and their family and so on.
that and to the people of Republic City, they probably see the current situation as great progress from back when everyone was at war, all the nations were separate and we didn't have all this cool new technology. This is a massive improvement over 70 years ago.
You may think this situation is bad, but from anyone in-universe aside from Amon and his followers, would probably disagree with you. You can't just call their culture backwards and bad or whatever without looking at it from their perspective

and since when did it become ok to call any hero with emotional depth and actual feelings/fears a whiny cryer like Shinji? do people just want a hero with no depth whatsoever who just is always brave and unfazed in the face of everything? :smallannoyed:

Edit: Assuming of course, that democracy would actually change anything at all. There is no guarantee that everyone getting a vote would solve any of these problems, and its perfectly possible that Amon would still be in the same position as he is now with a minority of followers while most people would still vote "Yes, Benders!"

[AtlanteanTroll]

I thought that was the point.:smallconfused:

It is. I was just pointing out that they seem to have done it accurately.

[Brother Oni]

And here is where Different Cultural Values and such come in: Your looking at Bender world from an ethnocentric perspective, through the lense of where you grew up, which won't be any help at all.


I fully agree with your post, although I have one comment on the shortage of air benders being an issue.

Due to this lack of available airbenders, Republic City has pretty much developed without air bending and I see very little evidence that it is required for the day to day running of it.
Had Republic City developed with air benders around, who knows how technology, and hence the city, could have developed?

Currently air bending is an archeological curiousity, a surviving relic of the war. The Air Nomads are rebuilding, but it's going to be a very long arduous process and by the time they have recovered sufficiently, the Avatar world may have moved on without them.
Tenzin is currently the only person trying to keep the Air Nation alive in current affairs, but I suspect it won't be until the next Air Avatar is old enough (assuming 3 score and ten lifespan, no sudden deaths) in ~210 years' time, to take their place in world affairs that the Air Nation will have a real revival, if at all.

[Sith_Happens]

yes, but she's from the frickin' North Pole..she should call anything but heavy snowstorm a breeze and basically go sleeveless.

Correction: She's from the south pole, which is (presumably) even COLDER.


Personally, I love that the most recent episode might as well be title The Shipping Episode.

I was kind of surprised at how quickly the burned through both this love triangle thing and the pro-bending plot. Seriously, one more match and, one way or another, the Fire Ferrets Future Industries Fire Ferrets pro-bending plot is effectively over!

I'm definitely liking how much more compressed/focused of a series this is (right now it's planned for just 26 episodes total, but we'll see how long that lasts:smalltongue:). So far, they've managed to do incredibly well in a single episode what would in the first series have been stretched out to the point of near-unbearability (referring of course to the love whatever-shape-a-triangle-plus-Asami-comes-out-to antics).


Eh, only in that he showed emotion when something bad happened. Being upset when you see your crush kissing your brother isn't exactly a glaring character flaw. Actually, he comes across the best in the episode.

That reminds me, I came across this (http://diylol.com/meme-generator/perfect-man-bolin/memes) will-likely-end-up-actually-becoming-a-meme. Thoughts?

[Brother Oni]

referring of course to the love whatever-shape-a-triangle-plus-Asami-comes-out-to antics.


A four sided shape is usually called a square. :smalltongue:

[dehro]

I fully agree with your post, although I have one comment on the shortage of air benders being an issue.

Due to this lack of available airbenders, Republic City has pretty much developed without air bending and I see very little evidence that it is required for the day to day running of it.
Had Republic City developed with air benders around, who knows how technology, and hence the city, could have developed?

Currently air bending is an archeological curiousity, a surviving relic of the war. The Air Nomads are rebuilding, but it's going to be a very long arduous process and by the time they have recovered sufficiently, the Avatar world may have moved on without them.
Tenzin is currently the only person trying to keep the Air Nation alive in current affairs, but I suspect it won't be until the next Air Avatar is old enough (assuming 3 score and ten lifespan, no sudden deaths) in ~210 years' time, to take their place in world affairs that the Air Nation will have a real revival, if at all.

I think you're right from a technological pov, but not from a spiritual point of view.. which in avatarverse is as important if not more so as technology.
The presence of airbenders in the world (and thus in Republic City, is necessary to keep the spiritual world in balance..which in avatarverse is really really important or it will unleash the spirits on the planet..every time that has happened, it usually has meant trouble...so it is in the best interest of the city to have airbenders too...important for the day to day tranquillity of the spirits, if you like.

that said.. we don't really know that the council of the city is a bender-only institution, although it is most likely.
assuming you're right, Person_man, and the council members are appointed by the respective governments... what's wrong with it? if that should be the case, people may be residing in Republic City, but that doesn't stop them from being citizens/subjects to their kingdom/country of horigin..if they have grivances, that's where they should air them.

As for why Tenzin is even on the council.. his daddy founded it and it's entirely possible that he's built a carreer as mediator and politician on the back of that when Aang was still alive; the resulting personal merits and prestige playing a part as much as his identity as only adult airbender on the planet.

[Person_Man]

Except Amon's rhetoric was mostly "benders are war-mongering d-bags and we need to get rid of all of them."

Well, the evidence that we've been presented with suggests that there is some truth to the first part of that statement.

Crime is dominated by benders. The police are dominated by benders. The government is dominated by benders. And the military is dominated by benders. This is true for every major country. And as these forces fight with each other, the civilian mostly non-bending population suffers massive collateral damage.

And then there's the Avatar, the literal apotheosis of bending. Outwardly, the Avatar strives for peace and balance, but in reality the Avatar simply maintains the status quo of oppression and violence.

The Avatar and many benders are nice people with good intentions, just as there have been many "good kings." But their very existence and raison d'etat has led directly to the oppression of non-benders. A good king is still just a dictator, who denies the natural rights of their people. The fact that I personally like Korra and want her to have a happy relationship with Bolin does not negate the fact that she is the lynchpin of oppression in the world.

Thus the Equalist revolution will succeed by destroying benders, or the Equalist revolution will succeed by forcing or negotiating with the benders to accept equal rights and representation for non-benders, or the Equalists and benders will have to combine forces against a more powerful external foe and leverage the situation to gain equal rights and representation for non-benders, or the Equalist revolution will fail and the status quo will remain, and thus the non-benders will have lost nothing.

Amon should have taken the Avatar's bending ability when he had the chance. He will regret that mistake.

[t209]

I fully agree with your post, although I have one comment on the shortage of air benders being an issue.

Due to this lack of available airbenders, Republic City has pretty much developed without air bending and I see very little evidence that it is required for the day to day running of it.
Had Republic City developed with air benders around, who knows how technology, and hence the city, could have developed?

Currently air bending is an archeological curiousity, a surviving relic of the war. The Air Nomads are rebuilding, but it's going to be a very long arduous process and by the time they have recovered sufficiently, the Avatar world may have moved on without them.
Tenzin is currently the only person trying to keep the Air Nation alive in current affairs, but I suspect it won't be until the next Air Avatar is old enough (assuming 3 score and ten lifespan, no sudden deaths) in ~210 years' time, to take their place in world affairs that the Air Nation will have a real revival, if at all.
Don't forget the ol' Gene pool since bending is genetic gifts. But how about Zhao? He's in Earth Kingdom but learned fire bending.

[BRC]

Don't forget the ol' Gene pool since bending is genetic gifts. But how about Zhao? He's in Earth Kingdom but learned fire bending.

Zhao was Fire Nation, he was in the Earth Kingdom because the Fire Nation had been invading it for the last hundred years.

[Brother Oni]

I think you're right from a technological pov, but not from a spiritual point of view.. which in avatarverse is as important if not more so as technology.
The presence of airbenders in the world (and thus in Republic City, is necessary to keep the spiritual world in balance..which in avatarverse is really really important or it will unleash the spirits on the planet..every time that has happened, it usually has meant trouble...so it is in the best interest of the city to have airbenders too...important for the day to day tranquillity of the spirits, if you like.


While I agree in principle regarding spirituality requirements, there's very little in the way of actual details.

There are a number of substantial differences and issues that makes me uncomfortable in using Chinese culture to extrapolate anything in the Avatar universe, so it's probably best to say that there's insufficient information to draw any firm conclusions about the spirituality of Republic City and its citizens.


Don't forget the ol' Gene pool since bending is genetic gifts.

Dodging that can of worms (again), but using the stated in-universe fact that the Air Nation have a 100% bending rate.


Making the assumptions that each of Tenzin's children have 2 children each, each generation births at 25 years old, all spouses marry into the Air Nation ensuring a 100% air bender rate, each generation lives to 75, no inbreeding and that only airbenders are Air Nation.

By my reckoning, you're in the 9th generation in 210 years following the above, so:

4
8
16
32
64
128
256
512
1024

The last two generations will currently be alive, so 256+512+1024 = 1792 air benders.

Population statistics aren't my strong point, so feel free to point out any errors I've made.


Crunching the numbers I get a population value of ~1792 by the time the next Air Avatar is old enough to be an Avatar.

That's not really very many people to be an actual nation - looking at the wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population), there's only 6 countries with less people.

[Reverent-One]

And then there's the Avatar, the literal apotheosis of bending. Outwardly, the Avatar strives for peace and balance, but in reality the Avatar simply maintains the status quo of oppression and violence.

In Amon's propaganda maybe, but in reality the Avatar is doing what they are outwardly doing. Helping people solve problems peacefully, dealing with problems like tryants and natural disasters.

[Kairaven]

Has anyone discussed the implication of Mako and Bolin as brothers?

Assuming they are not adopted brothers, then it's likely that their parents are of fire and earth nation people. And quite blessed to have both their sons be benders, not just one bender but a different type of bender each.

And that's what Republic city is, no longer are benders divided by nation states, each specializing in their own elements, but a mingling of blood. Any Republic City families has the genetic potential to produce any type of benders. (well, three types of benders until Air bender bloods become more intergrated in numbers.)

[Brother Oni]

In Amon's propaganda maybe, but in reality the Avatar is doing what they are outwardly doing. Helping people solve problems peacefully, dealing with problems like tryants and natural disasters.

The Avatar does, unfortunately Korra has some growing up to do before she matures enough to this level.

I wonder how long will it be before she realises that mastery of the 4 elements is just a parlour trick and that being the Avatar is something far more demanding (I believe somebody raised this point in the last thread).


Has anyone discussed the implication of Mako and Bolin as brothers?

Not directly I don't think, but everything I've seen on these threads so far seem to agree that the idea of Republic City, a place where people from all 4 nations can meet together and live in harmony, is generally a good idea.

[Reverent-One]

The Avatar does, unfortunately Korra has some growing up to do before she matures enough to this level.

While true, this is because Korra is not a fully trained, prepared Avatar yet, so it's to be expected.

[BRC]

The Avatar does, unfortunately Korra has some growing up to do before she matures enough to this level.

I wonder how long will it be before she realises that mastery of the 4 elements is just a parlour trick and that being the Avatar is something far more demanding (I believe somebody raised this point in the last thread).

Mastery of the four elements is a very important Parlor trick. The ability to use all 4 elements is what makes the Avatar special, so it's kind of a rite of passage. The Avatar must master the four elements before they're really considered a proper Avatar and ready to assume their role as the protector of the world.

Mind you, it IS a parlor trick. Having access to all four elements makes the avatar more powerful true, but it doesn't suddenly make them more capable of doing the right thing. Mind you, mastering the 4 elements DOES indicate the Avatar has an appreciation for the philosophical and spiritual mindsets of the four nations. Since you need to be able to think like a Firebender in order to Firebend and like an Earthbender in order to Earthbend, the Avatar would be an ideal mediator, since they would be able to see the perspectives of both sides.

Or they should be able to. See above Korra being a thug. And since Republic City kind of screwed up the whole "Four Distinct Cultures" thing it's becoming increasingly irrelevant.

[Brother Oni]

While true, this is because Korra is not a fully trained, prepared Avatar yet, so it's to be expected.

Still, it's worrying that she doesn't seem to have made any progress on the spiritual side of being the Avatar, particularly at her age (17?).

Maybe going up against Amon is exactly what she needs to grow up? Something she knows she just can't beat into submission with her combat tricks, but will require calm thought, introspection and out of the box thinking?

Huh, I just realised those are the principles of air bending. :smallredface:


Mind you, mastering the 4 elements DOES indicate the Avatar has an appreciation for the philosophical and spiritual mindsets of the four nations. Since you need to be able to think like a Firebender in order to Firebend and like an Earthbender in order to Earthbend, the Avatar would be an ideal mediator, since they would be able to see the perspectives of both sides.

Or they should be able to. See above Korra being a thug. And since Republic City kind of screwed up the whole "Four Distinct Cultures" thing it's becoming increasingly irrelevant.

A very interesting point.

Maybe it's something that Aang and Zuko planned to do, in case the Avatar ever disappeared again - start integrating the 4 distinct cultures together so that the Avatar won't be needed to bring harmony to the world.

I suspect that Roku's warning that if the Avatar was ever killed while in the Avatar State, the Avatar would not reincarnate thus ending the Avatar entirely, probably struck very home with Aang and helped lead to the formation of Republic City.

[Absol197]

In Amon's propaganda maybe, but in reality the Avatar is doing what they are outwardly doing. Helping people solve problems peacefully, dealing with problems like tryants and natural disasters.

Exactly. Even though it was one of the worst episodes of the original series, the Great Divide showcases this quite well:

Aang felt that it was his duty to end the strife between the feuding tribes. He didn't see them as non-benders, and therefore unimportant, he saw them as people ("Helping people, that's what I do!"). And this also shows that benders aren't the only ones who cause destruction and devastation. The Zhangs and the Gonjins caused plenty of strife for each other, and there wasn't a bender among them. In the Painted Lady, Aang helped the village of Fire Nationals (who were, technically, enemies) to protect their village and clean their river, and once again, no benders among them.

Jet's another example. His group almost wiped out an entire town, with narry a bender in sight.

I definitely agree that the Republic council probably doesn't take the position of non-benders into account as much as they should, but that's not a problem with benders in general or the system, its a problem with the politicians themselves. Tenzin, in fact, seems to have a good grasp on how the non-bending population of Republic City is feeling (probably due to the fact that his wife is a non-bender), but he's easily out-voted by the others.

The Avatar spirit's job is to protect people. Sure, Korra might not be doing that great a job yet, but she spend the entirety of her life locking in a fort, and taught solely bending. She still has to learn to see things from a different perspective.

[Xondoure]

Bending. Is. Not. Genetic. This is Word of God. They have gone out of their way to prove this point by including a pair of identical twins with different bending potentials. If that weren't enough it's ridiculously illogical that any non benders would still exist after however many thousands of years it has been since bending was established seeing as it is such a huge advantage over those who lack it. This is me annoyed that this keeps coming up, so I apologize for any aggravation. :smallsigh:

[Flickerdart]

Since Korra only has one element to learn, I wonder what the books will look like...

Book 1: Air
Book 2: Air Again
Book 3: Still Air
Book 4: You got it - Air

[Brother Oni]

Bending. Is. Not. Genetic.

I apologise - I had hoped that I dodged the question enough using the aforementioned in-universe statement of the Air Nation having a 100% bender rate. :smallredface:

[BRC]

Maybe it's something that Aang and Zuko planned to do, in case the Avatar ever disappeared again - start integrating the 4 distinct cultures together so that the Avatar won't be needed to bring harmony to the world.

I suspect that Roku's warning that if the Avatar was ever killed while in the Avatar State, the Avatar would not reincarnate thus ending the Avatar entirely, probably struck very home with Aang and helped lead to the formation of Republic City.

From The Promise comic, it looks more like they were forced to create Republic City once they realized that, since some of the Fire Nation colonies were a hundred years old, it would be wrong to force the people there to go back to a fire nation they had never considered home.

[Reverent-One]

Still, it's worrying that she doesn't seem to have made any progress on the spiritual side of being the Avatar, particularly at her age (17?).

It's worrying that a 17 year old isn't very spiritual and doesn't get the depth of a job like keeping balance in the world? I think that's more to be expected as well. Even if it takes her another 5-10 years to get that side of things figured out, she'll still have decades, if not more than 100 years, to serve the world. Of course, the sooner the better, since problems will still crop up, but I don't see it as something to be truely concerned about.

[Brother Oni]

From The Promise comic, it looks more like they were forced to create Republic City once they realized that, since some of the Fire Nation colonies were a hundred years old, it would be wrong to force the people there to go back to a fire nation they had never considered home.

Well integration appears to be a fortunate side effect of the creation then. :smallbiggrin:


It's worrying that a 17 year old isn't very spiritual and doesn't get the depth of a job like keeping balance in the world? I think that's more to be expected as well. Even if it takes her another 5-10 years to get that side of things figured out, she'll still have decades, if not more than 100 years, to serve the world. Of course, the sooner the better, since problems will still crop up, but I don't see it as something to be truely concerned about.

While all perfectly fair points, I suspect we may be running into cultural relativism issues here, with maturity expected at a younger age.

For example, you have Mako and Bolin, professional athletes living off the proceeds of their own careers at a similar age. True, they could be regarded as outliers due to their circumstances, but the fact that nobody seems to bat an eyelid at such young people in a professional full contact sport suggests it's not atypical.

The only other problem is whether Amon's antics would permit Korra the time and opportunity to grow and mature. Much like Aang, Korra may be forced to grow up very quickly.

[dehro]

Still, it's worrying that she doesn't seem to have made any progress on the spiritual side of being the Avatar, particularly at her age (17?).


except Aang, all avatars we know of only ever found out that they were the Avatar when they turned 16..and "then" started their training in the other 3 elements.
Aang was an exception due to wartime, he started out as an airbending monk, which means he got phylosophy and general monk-iness thrown at him ever since his diet moved on to solids. he had to have a crash course in all elements and should not be taken as an example.
also, wartime.
Despite ****stirring Amon who is a big deal because that's what the cartoon is about and we know it's going to get bigger, but who in the grand scale of things is little more than a local troublemaker.. Korra lives in relative comfort and in rather quiet and peaceful times, bustling with innovation and progress. she has a hobby that is right up her alley, and does some dangerous bending activity on the side.. (which is true whichever way you want to look at it first..the pro-bending or the police activity). In other words, she doesn't have the immense challenges Aang faced
Really she isn't doing that badly having mastered 3 elements already at 17. The one she is having a hard time with is the one most spiritual in nature..and yeah..it's posing a bit of a problem that we, out of universe, know will become a massive problem in short order..but..
give a bender a break :smalltongue:


Since Korra only has one element to learn, I wonder what the books will look like...

Book 1: Air
Book 2: Air Again
Book 3: Still Air
Book 4: You got it - Air

I am confused

[Grey Watcher]

Eh, only in that he showed emotion when something bad happened. Being upset when you see your crush kissing your brother isn't exactly a glaring character flaw. Actually, he comes across the best in the episode.

I guess, I just feel like the comic relief gets played up to such an absurd degree that it starts undermining Bolin's positive qualities. It's not that he ran off in tears, it's that he started bawling like an toddler before he was even out of sight. It's not that he thought he could chip in for the 30k Championship Fee with street performing (it's no more absurd than Mako thinking grunt work at the power plant will get him nearly enough money in time), it's that he proposed the idea with so much witless enthusiasm that even Season 1 Sokka would've been embarrassed for him. It's not that he was the voice of reason when Korra had her spat with the Fancy Dancers (or whatever that other team is really called), it's that he was quivering in terror when they approached (despite, oddly, knowing that they won't throw the first punch and disqualify themselves).

I do like the character of Bolin a lot, which is why it bothers me that the writers seem determined to play up his... less admirable traits just to get a cheap laugh at what seems like every opportunity.


A four sided shape is usually called a square. :smalltongue:

Not necessarily, there are rectangles and rhombuses and trapezoids and paralellograms and quite a few more whose names escape me. To say nothing of three dimensional shapes like... whatever the formal name for a d4's shape is.

Also, glad to finally know what that center circle in the ring is for.

[Xondoure]

I apologise - I had hoped that I dodged the question enough using the aforementioned in-universe statement of the Air Nation having a 100% bender rate. :smallredface:

It wasn't your post. Others had started to use the word again. No worries. :smallredface:

Edit: a D4 is a tetrahedron I believe.

[Brother Oni]

Really she isn't doing that badly having mastered 3 elements already at 17.

Hmmm, is there any evidence that Korra was only told she was the Avatar at 16 and mastered all three elements in a year?

I believe she was discovered at the age of 4 - not telling her then and adjusting her education to match would be... I hesitate to say 'silly', but 'unwise' or 'inappropriate' doesn't quite capture the 'bloody bleeding obviousness' of the statement.

[Person_Man]

In Amon's propaganda maybe, but in reality the Avatar is doing what they are outwardly doing. Helping people solve problems peacefully, dealing with problems like tryants and natural disasters.

Really? How many problems has Korra resolved peacefully?

Since arriving in the city, she's beat up some gangsters using her superior bending abilities, fought with the police, joined a pro-bending team, fought some Equalists, and helped out on an raid against Equalists. That doesn't sound very peaceful to me.

[BRC]

Hmmm, is there any evidence that Korra was only told she was the Avatar at 16 and mastered all three elements in a year?

I believe she was discovered at the age of 4 - not telling her then and adjusting her education to match would be... I hesitate to say 'silly', but 'unwise' or 'inappropriate' doesn't quite capture the 'bloody bleeding obviousness' of the statement.
Re watch the first scene of the series. She was using three elements (Not very well mind you) when she looked to be about five or six. That's how the White Lotus found her in the first place.
And, IIRC, her first line was something along the lines of "I'm the avatar, deal with it"

[Zeful]

Since Korra only has one element to learn, I wonder what the books will look like...

Book 1: Air
Book 2: Air Again
Book 3: Still Air
Book 4: You got it - Air

Air and Spirit probably. There's actually a theory that the first season will be themed around the Chakra's and their in-universe meaning.


You know how Korra has trouble with spirituality, therefore has trouble with airbending and going into the Avatar State? Well I think that the episodes have been planned out so that each new episode Korra opens one of the seven chakras needed to unleash the Avatar State, the same Aang had to deal with in The Guru

Episodes 1 through 3 established the characters and the plots.

Episode 4 dealt with Korra's fear of Amon. The first chakra, "Earth" deals with survival, and is blocked by fear.

Episode 5, if we have any indication, deals with relationship drama. The second chakra, "Water", deals with pleasure and is blocked by guilt.

If I am correct, then the rest of the episodes will have as follows:

Episode 6: The Fire Chakra, dealing with willpower and blocked by shame. We know that this is the episode where Amon invades the Probending Arena. Perhaps Korra is shameful that she hasn't defeated Amon yet.

Episode 7: The Air Chakra, dealing with love and blocked by grief. Probably more shipping in this episode. Also I predict that Korra will first airbend here.

Episode 8: The Sound Chakra, dealing with truth and blocked by lies. Probably more about Amon and his past.

Episode 9: The Light Chakra, dealing with insight and blocked by illusion. I honestly don't know about this episode

Episode 10: The Thought Chakra, dealing with pure cosmic energy and blocked by earthly attachments. Korra is going to have to make a tough decision.

This leaves episodes 11 and 12 for the finale, where Korra will enter the Avatar State.

[Brother Oni]

Air and Spirit probably. There's actually a theory that the first season will be themed around the Chakra's and their in-universe meaning.

Oh dear... more shipping wars inbound in 2 weeks. :smalltongue:

I'm going to have to think about that post some more before commenting - assuming you didn't write it yourself, do you have a source for it?

[Fjolnir]

While I agree in principle regarding spirituality requirements, there's very little in the way of actual details.

There are a number of substantial differences and issues that makes me uncomfortable in using Chinese culture to extrapolate anything in the Avatar universe, so it's probably best to say that there's insufficient information to draw any firm conclusions about the spirituality of Republic City and its citizens.



Dodging that can of worms (again), but using the stated in-universe fact that the Air Nation have a 100% bending rate.


Making the assumptions that each of Tenzin's children have 2 children each, each generation births at 25 years old, all spouses marry into the Air Nation ensuring a 100% air bender rate, each generation lives to 75, no inbreeding and that only airbenders are Air Nation.

By my reckoning, you're in the 9th generation in 210 years following the above, so:

4
8
16
32
64
128
256
512
1024

The last two generations will currently be alive, so 256+512+1024 = 1792 air benders.

Population statistics aren't my strong point, so feel free to point out any errors I've made.


Crunching the numbers I get a population value of ~1792 by the time the next Air Avatar is old enough to be an Avatar.

That's not really very many people to be an actual nation - looking at the wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population), there's only 6 countries with less people.

Those are some very conservative estimates anyhow and fails to take into account that there are also potentials from people who relearn the art from the air bison (this is still possible since there is an in world example of someone learning bending from the root animal of the style- Toph, who learned earthbending from the badgermoles) and things like Bumi's (The non-bending son of Aang and Katara) children being able to bend air as well.

[Zeful]

Oh dear... more shipping wars inbound in 2 weeks. :smalltongue:

I'm going to have to think about that post some more before commenting - assuming you didn't write it yourself, do you have a source for it?

It was apparently posed on the Avatar Spirit Forums and Reddit originally. But no I don't have a source.

[dehro]

Hmmm, is there any evidence that Korra was only told she was the Avatar at 16 and mastered all three elements in a year?

she did not..she was named avatar at around 5..but..
are you seriously comparing the capacity of a 5 year old to learn advanced techniques to those of a 16 year old? Roku started at 16 with a solid foundation (if not mastery, which could very well be) of firebending, and it took him years to learn the other 3.
Korra was 5 when she was found. I doubt that she got taught any really advanced techniques before she was at least 9-10 years old..
Because..would you want to teach a hyper kid of 5, who set fire to your beard the first day you met her, how to burn down a city?
yeah..she did basic stuff and went to school.. but I expect that the intensive training would only start at around 10-12 years of age... again, these are times of peace..there's no need to rush things.

[Silverraptor]

Since Korra only has one element to learn, I wonder what the books will look like...

Book 1: Air
Book 2: Air Again
Book 3: Still Air
Book 4: You got it - Air

I thought I saw somewhere or heard from someone that the Legend of Korra will be only 1 season and only 16 episodes, making this series actually the 4th chapter in the avatar series as air, since they couldn't have Aang learn air bending when he already knows it.

[Absol197]

I thought I saw somewhere or heard from someone that the Legend of Korra will be only 1 season and only 16 episodes, making this series actually the 4th chapter in the avatar series as air, since they couldn't have Aang learn air bending when he already knows it.

Your partially right. Originally, it was meant to only be 12 episodes, a single seaon. But then Nick asked them to produce 14 additional episodes, bringing the total up to 26 episodes and 2 seasons.

Point of order, I may have the numbers backwards, but that's the basic gist of what happened.

[Misery Esquire]

Emphasis on "theoretically". A certain level of paranoia is expected from a group like the Equalists.

It's not paranoia if they're actually out to get you.

<_<
>_>

Beware the secrecy benders.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Bending. Is. Not. Genetic. This is Word of God. They have gone out of their way to prove this point by including a pair of identical twins with different bending potentials. If that weren't enough it's ridiculously illogical that any non benders would still exist after however many thousands of years it has been since bending was established seeing as it is such a huge advantage over those who lack it. This is me annoyed that this keeps coming up, so I apologize for any aggravation. :smallsigh:

I'd be curious as to the exact quote on the WoG there got a link?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Really? How many problems has Korra resolved peacefully?

Since arriving in the city, she's beat up some gangsters using her superior bending abilities, fought with the police, joined a pro-bending team, fought some Equalists, and helped out on an raid against Equalists. That doesn't sound very peaceful to me.

1. Pro-bending is a sport.
2. She was roped into the task force.

The avatar is not some person who always has the same personality. Roku was an old man, with a ton of experience. We don't know a lot about his nature, although he was definitely more lighthearted in his youth. Aang was a big pacifist. But Korra is a hot-headed girl with barely any knowledge of how the city works. The important thing? They're all good-natured. Korra may not know how to restrain herself or what type of bending would be best in a situation, while Aang was much more restrained and knowledgeable, but she's good-hearted. In Exalted terms, she has low Temperance, high Valor, and probably a Compassion of three (average is two, max is five). Kyoshi was average or low Compassion, high Conviction. Aang had a high Compassion, probably average for the other Virtues.

Also, who are the twins? The earthbender and the non-bender? They don't have different bending attunements, one just does and one just doesn't. It's like Dragon-Blooded. If your bloodline is exceptionally pure, then the chance comes closer to approaching 1. But the more muddled it gets, the less potential you have.

[Xondoure]

I'd be curious as to the exact quote on the WoG there got a link?

Got another explanation for the identical twins of bend/non-bending? And while I know that it has been said I must admit my searching skills are not up to the task. :/

[Anarion]

<3 Kpenguin.


I am by no means an expert, but her disguise looks pretty flapperesque to me.

Disguise
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRUgaJtWwD03GS8mgn70t5a8JmK2FtJq _bL2bikspEIl1sH9_6cFkznEZKr_w

Flapper(s)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-N7_nedkQ8TE/TwoRspsLZjI/AAAAAAAAAyg/bFTDi1RCRmk/s1600/24908406.jpg

I can see the similarity with the hat there, but I think the scarf makes the outfit quite different, especially since it also implies that the hat is more of a cold-weather wool cap than something specifically styled to be like a flapper. It's more just heavy clothing, although I do admit that the hat is in a flapper style, so perhaps that's moved to general popularity in Republic City.


yes, but she's from the frickin' North Pole..she should call anything but heavy snowstorm a breeze and basically go sleeveless.
I was wondering about it because I remember how I would walk about in a t-shirt in late november, here in Italy, because I was used to living in colder climates and had not yet acclimatized to the overal warmer weather.


Do we know how long Korra has been in the city at this point? I acclimatize between United States West and East coasts in a week or two, and she comes across at this point as having been in Republic city for at least a month, if I had to guess. Unless all those pro-bending matches and the playoffs were a daily affair.


Or they should be able to. See above Korra being a thug. And since Republic City kind of screwed up the whole "Four Distinct Cultures" thing it's becoming increasingly irrelevant.

Here's a thought. Aang got himself about 100 years off time. This means that we should really be about 2 avatars ahead of ourselves if the cycle was on track. What two elements are those? Earth and fire. Korra appears as a water tribe avatar, but also has natural talents in earth and fire. Maybe the cycle is trying to get itself back on track, with the unintended effect of requiring less spiritual understanding from Korra because the bending came so naturally to her.


Air and Spirit probably. There's actually a theory that the first season will be themed around the Chakra's and their in-universe meaning.

For the truth+illusion one, perhaps that episode would involve a major reveal about Amon's plans and how he's manipulating people.

[dehro]

Here's a thought. Aang got himself about 100 years off time. This means that we should really be about 2 avatars ahead of ourselves if the cycle was on track.

not necessarily..if Kyoshi is any indication Avatars tend to live a long, long life, possibly longer than average, unless they die of being murdered.
ok, Kyoshi was the one that lived the longest, true..but she did live to about 230 years of age. Aang's live was "cut short" due to his 100 years of hybernation, but he might have actually lived to become a 180 even had he not spent 100 of them covered in ice.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Got another explanation for the identical twins of bend/non-bending? And while I know that it has been said I must admit my searching skills are not up to the task. :/

*points at last part of my post above yours*

[Morty]

While I too can't find the authors' statements about bending not being genetic, I fail to see how "it works that way in Exalted" is a viable argument.
Just what makes some people benders and some not is pretty vague. I hope that since this series' main conflict is between benders and non-benders, and the main villain can remove bending abilities somehow, we'll get a more detailed explanation. Until we do, it's basically "fill in the blanks", where everybody explains it the way they want it to work.

[Ashen Lilies]

Google machine gooo!!!

INTERVIEW. (http://www.avatarspirit.net/interviews.php?id=19)

Official answer? "It's complicated."

And there we go.

[John Cribati]

In other news, Sifu Kisu, the martial arts consultant for the show, is on tumblr, and the fandom is performing some bizarre and unholy ritual that combines trolling and fan-worshiping him.

[Dienekes]

Google machine gooo!!!

INTERVIEW. (http://www.avatarspirit.net/interviews.php?id=19)

Official answer? "It's complicated."

And there we go.

I'll be honest, bending is altering the very elements of the world by essentially dancing around. If they explained it with science I'd be a bit disappointed. It's like the Force should have been, a mystery. Once you add in midichlorians it loses some of the fun.

[Silverraptor]

Your partially right. Originally, it was meant to only be 12 episodes, a single seaon. But then Nick asked them to produce 14 additional episodes, bringing the total up to 26 episodes and 2 seasons.

Point of order, I may have the numbers backwards, but that's the basic gist of what happened.

Huh. Well, atleast I was partially right. Thanks for bringing me up to speed.:smallsmile:

[kpenguin]

I'll be honest, bending is altering the very elements of the world by essentially dancing around. If they explained it with science I'd be a bit disappointed. It's like the Force should have been, a mystery. Once you add in midichlorians it loses some of the fun.

I have to agree here.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Got another explanation for the identical twins of bend/non-bending? And while I know that it has been said I must admit my searching skills are not up to the task. :/

Yeah, not identical. Presuming this transcript (http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Transcript:The_Fortuneteller) and my Ctrl+F searching and skimming are accurate at no point are Poi and Ping identified as identical twins so if need be they can be fraternal.

And I don't think anyone thinks bending will stand to strict genetic rigor. Doesn't mean that ancestry is yet irrelevant.

[kpenguin]

I don't think genetic is quite the right word here, while I believe there could be some component dealing with ancestry, since I hesitate to apply something as scientific as the gene to something as spiritual as bending. Hereditary would probably be better.

[Zevox]

Really? How many problems has Korra resolved peacefully?

Since arriving in the city, she's beat up some gangsters using her superior bending abilities, fought with the police, joined a pro-bending team, fought some Equalists, and helped out on an raid against Equalists. That doesn't sound very peaceful to me.
Korra is a teenager who hasn't completed her Avatar training yet. And unlike Aang she wasn't raised by monks who instilled spirituality and near-pacifism into her from birth. She's not ready yet to assume the full duties of the Avatar, even if she thinks otherwise and circumstances (read: Amon) are probably going to force her to.

Zevox

[LordShotGun]

Lets look at it this way. If bending was not genetic then there would be no separate nations since everyone would have every element in their extended family tree leading to homogenous nations and not "Fire" or "Earth" nations.

Random assignment of bending is show to be not the case since you only find certain benders in certain places and not several of each in every village or town.

Thus, this is my reasoning that bending IS genetic simply due to the concentrations of benders in each location.

This is further backed up by the "Promise" comic book/graphic novel where a fire bending father (I think he is a bender, not sure) marries an earthbender and has an earthbending daughter.

By extrapolation we can assume intermarriage of other bending couples leading to mixed progeny such as Mako and Bolin, especially in such a place as Republic City, where all benders are welcome.

[Reverent-One]

Korra is a teenager who hasn't completed her Avatar training yet. And unlike Aang she wasn't raised by monks who instilled spirituality and near-pacifism into her from birth. She's not ready yet to assume the full duties of the Avatar, even if she thinks otherwise and circumstances (read: Amon) are probably going to force her to.

Zevox

This. Ideally, she shouldn't be out of the training grounds yet, but Tenzin's duties have forced that.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This. Ideally, she shouldn't be out of the training grounds yet, but Tenzin's duties have forced that.

Yeah. Keep in mind that most avatars started at 16, and spent years practicing the other three elements, returning wiser in the ways of the world as well as older.

[BRC]

Lets look at it this way. If bending was not genetic then there would be no separate nations since everyone would have every element in their extended family tree leading to homogenous nations and not "Fire" or "Earth" nations.

Random assignment of bending is show to be not the case since you only find certain benders in certain places and not several of each in every village or town.

Thus, this is my reasoning that bending IS genetic simply due to the concentrations of benders in each location.

This is further backed up by the "Promise" comic book/graphic novel where a fire bending father (I think he is a bender, not sure) marries an earthbender and has an earthbending daughter.

By extrapolation we can assume intermarriage of other bending couples leading to mixed progeny such as Mako and Bolin, especially in such a place as Republic City, where all benders are welcome.

I always figured that the ability to Bend was in some ways genetic, but that the Element you bent was a result of your culture.

[planswalker]

My pet theory is that bending is not *genetic* but *spiritual inheritance*. Ergo, the four nations were "pureblood" and were discreet because you had virtually if not actually no cross-breeding between people with differing bending capacities. But since it is not *genetic*, Mendeleev's peas have no place here. With the exception of airbending, it can easily be assumed that bending doesn't always pass down 100%.

however, on the note of the air nomads populace being 100% benders, I have a different interpretation for why that is: I interpret the data to mean that every air nomad was a bender because... if you couldn't bend, you couldn't keep up and were left behind once you were too old to be carried. Probably adopted into a local village wherever they were. My biggest piece of evidence for that is that Aang (an airbender) had a child who not only wasn't an airbender, one of them wasn't even a bender of any sort. If airbending passed down 100% of the time, I'd expect all of Aang's kids to be benders of some sort, even if not all of them are air benders.


Not necessarily, there are rectangles and rhombuses and trapezoids and paralellograms and quite a few more whose names escape me. To say nothing of three dimensional shapes like... whatever the formal name for a d4's shape is.

the name for any generic four-sided shape is a quadrilateral. Any simple closed figure composed of four straight lines and only four straight lines is a quadrilateral. Any four points in 2D space that are not between the other points in their group will form a quadrilateral. We have a LOT of special names for special arrangements of these geometric figures due to them being deemed special.

if you don't like the term tetrahedron for your d4 shape, you could use trigonal pyramid. Slightly less formal.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Regarding genetics vs. spiritual origins for bending: I'm going to hate myself for making this analogy, but think of it like the four Hogwarts houses in Harry Potter. Analogy spoilered for length.

Joe Wizard gets to Hogwarts and sees that there are four houses: the protagonist house courageous, risk-taking Gryffindor, the antagonist house sneaky, ruthless Slytherin, the supporting cast quiet, logical Ravenclaw, and the comic relief loyal, dedicated Hufflepuff. If Joe has any older siblings, they probably all went into one house, and Joe will probably end up in the same one.

This isn't because certain families have Gryffindor or Slytherin blood (though they'd like to believe that), but rather because siblings would all be raised in the same environment, or because they have similar temperament, or the like. It's entirely possible for Joe to have traits of multiple houses, but the Sorting Hat has to pick a single house for him to go to anyway; likewise, it's possible for Joe to be put in a different house from his older siblings if he's sufficiently different from them. Someone who has conflicting traits, or no signature traits at all, will probably take on the associated traits of his house due to exposure.

So. Joe Bender is born in the avatar-verse, in which there are four bending styles: the protagonist style airbending of the peaceful Air Nomads, the antagonist style firebending of the angry Fire Nation, the supporting cast waterbending of the flexible Water Tribes, and the comic relief earthbending of the rock-candy-munching Earth Kingdom. If Joe has any older siblings who can bend, they probably all bend the same elements, and Joe will probably end up bending the same one.

This isn't because certain families have airbending or firebending blood (though they might believe that), but rather because siblings would all be raised in the same environment, or because they have similar temperament, or the like. It's entirely possible for Joe to have traits of multiple styles, but he can only learn one bending style anyway; likewise, it's possible for Joe to be able to bend a different element from his older siblings if he's sufficiently different from them.

Basically, you have the basic magical spark (bending ability), and anyone who has that can go to Hogwarts (become a bender), and while nurture and background will affect what you do with your magic (what element you will bend) most likely via what house you're sorted into (what country you're from), you aren't genetically predetermined to be in the same house (be the same kind of bender) your family was. Also, Harry Potter (the Avatar) cheats--he starts out very Gryffindor (learns airbending first), but develops Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw traits (learns waterbending and earthbending) from his friends, and eventually becomes sort of Slytherin (learns firebending) thanks to learning from his enemy Voldemort (Zuko), who loses his powers eventually thanks to a tactical misstep, but eventually regains them, and there's a scar involved, and...okay, you get the point.

TL;DR: I definitely think the "You're either a bender or a nonbender, and family/nurture/etc. determine what you bend" interpretation is more likely than the "Everyone who can bend bends their country's/family's element" and much more likely than the genetics explanation.

[planswalker]

Regarding genetics vs. spiritual origins for bending: I'm going to hate myself for making this analogy, but think of it like the four Hogwarts houses in Harry Potter. Analogy spoilered for length.

Joe Wizard gets to Hogwarts and sees that there are four houses: the protagonist house courageous, risk-taking Gryffindor, the antagonist house sneaky, ruthless Slytherin, the supporting cast quiet, logical Ravenclaw, and the comic relief loyal, dedicated Hufflepuff. If Joe has any older siblings, they probably all went into one house, and Joe will probably end up in the same one.

This isn't because certain families have Gryffindor or Slytherin blood (though they'd like to believe that), but rather because siblings would all be raised in the same environment, or because they have similar temperament, or the like. It's entirely possible for Joe to have traits of multiple houses, but the Sorting Hat has to pick a single house for him to go to anyway; likewise, it's possible for Joe to be put in a different house from his older siblings if he's sufficiently different from them. Someone who has conflicting traits, or no signature traits at all, will probably take on the associated traits of his house due to exposure.

So. Joe Bender is born in the avatar-verse, in which there are four bending styles: the protagonist style airbending of the peaceful Air Nomads, the antagonist style firebending of the angry Fire Nation, the supporting cast waterbending of the flexible Water Tribes, and the comic relief earthbending of the rock-candy-munching Earth Kingdom. If Joe has any older siblings who can bend, they probably all bend the same elements, and Joe will probably end up bending the same one.

This isn't because certain families have airbending or firebending blood (though they might believe that), but rather because siblings would all be raised in the same environment, or because they have similar temperament, or the like. It's entirely possible for Joe to have traits of multiple styles, but he can only learn one bending style anyway; likewise, it's possible for Joe to be able to bend a different element from his older siblings if he's sufficiently different from them.

Basically, you have the basic magical spark (bending ability), and anyone who has that can go to Hogwarts (become a bender), and while nurture and background will affect what you do with your magic (what element you will bend) most likely via what house you're sorted into (what country you're from), you aren't genetically predetermined to be in the same house (be the same kind of bender) your family was. Also, Harry Potter (the Avatar) cheats--he starts out very Gryffindor (learns airbending first), but develops Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw traits (learns waterbending and earthbending) from his friends, and eventually becomes sort of Slytherin (learns firebending) thanks to learning from his enemy Voldemort (Zuko), who loses his powers eventually thanks to a tactical misstep, but eventually regains them, and there's a scar involved, and...okay, you get the point.

TL;DR: I definitely think the "You're either a bender or a nonbender, and family/nurture/etc. determine what you bend" interpretation is more likely than the "Everyone who can bend bends their country's/family's element" and much more likely than the genetics explanation.

that sounds like a fine explanation to me, if you can explain to me why no one ever has figured out how to master 2 or more elements of bending without being the avatar. I don't see why, according to this theory, you couldn't have someone with a flexible enough mind bend 2, 3, or possibly even all four elements.

[Anarion]

Korra is a teenager who hasn't completed her Avatar training yet. And unlike Aang she wasn't raised by monks who instilled spirituality and near-pacifism into her from birth. She's not ready yet to assume the full duties of the Avatar, even if she thinks otherwise and circumstances (read: Amon) are probably going to force her to.

Zevox

One nice thing about the Avatar is that they can talk with their former incarnations given the right setup. As we've seen with Aang, you don't always have to agree with your former incarnations, but you get a set of advisers that you inherently respect and that you know are trustworthy. Helps a lot.



Random assignment of bending is show to be not the case since you only find certain benders in certain places and not several of each in every village or town.

Thus, this is my reasoning that bending IS genetic simply due to the concentrations of benders in each location.


What if bending is regional? Or if not regional per se, then related to the environment around a person when growing up. Tenzen lives out on an island and has cultivated an environment of calm spirituality for his airbender family. The rest of Republic City has been built up into enough diverse environments to support water, earth, and fire-bending which is why it's so diverse. Other places like the more traditional earth kingdom villages or the water tribe villages are more homogenous locales that only produce one type of bending, and the fire nation might have been subconsciously driven to alter so much of the terrain that it had conquered during Aang's time in order to cause it to produce firebenders in the future.

This is just a theory, but if it's true, then relocating people to the air temples could be a great way to jumpstart the recovery of the air nomads.

[planswalker]

What if bending is regional? Or if not regional per se, then related to the environment around a person when growing up. Tenzen lives out on an island and has cultivated an environment of calm spirituality for his airbender family. The rest of Republic City has been built up into enough diverse environments to support water, earth, and fire-bending which is why it's so diverse. Other places like the more traditional earth kingdom villages or the water tribe villages are more homogenous locales that only produce one type of bending, and the fire nation might have been subconsciously driven to alter so much of the terrain that it had conquered during Aang's time in order to cause it to produce firebenders in the future.

This is just a theory, but if it's true, then relocating people to the air temples could be a great way to jumpstart the recovery of the air nomads.

then why don't we see coastal earth tribe fishing villages with waterbenders? Wouldn't that environment be just as favorable for waterbending as earth, if not even more so.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

that sounds like a fine explanation to me, if you can explain to me why no one ever has figured out how to master 2 or more elements of bending without being the avatar. I don't see why, according to this theory, you couldn't have someone with a flexible enough mind bend 2, 3, or possibly even all four elements.

The real reason, of course, is that the Avatar is the protagonist, and the basis for the whole show. It's the same reason protagonists in Harry Potter, the Dresden Files, the Wheel of Time, and other fantasy works have fancy tricks no one else does: not because no one else could theoretically do the same thing, but because those stories tend to be about knowledge/cunning/guts going up against sheer power (Aang vs. Ozai, Harry Potter vs. VoldemortDresden vs. Faerie Courts, Rand vs. the Forsaken, all of those are hero + tricks vs. baddie + power).

From an in-universe standpoint, though, it's the past lives at work. If you gave someone the magical training and talents, personality traits, and life experiences of Draco Malfoy, Harry Potter, Cedric Diggory, and Luna Lovegood, they won't be as Slytherin as Voldemort or as Gryffindor as James Potter, but they would literally have four lifetimes' worth of experience and training to work with where someone else would only be able to master one.

[Weirdlet]

Perhaps it's a matter of being close to where the original bending animal and/or strongest spiritual connection for that element is? Peoples living high in the mountains where air-bison roamed might travel, but come home to where their herds and spiritual mentors are most comfortable. Same with dragons and badgermoles, while the major spiritual oasis for the Water Tribes is at the poles of the planet (or at least one of them). Perhaps then different settlements might have bending that originates from other places, but without spiritual support from either the original teachers or a strong population and tradition of benders of that particular element, it just fades out over the generations and doesn't show up after a while as the people assimilate.

[Anarion]

then why don't we see coastal earth tribe fishing villages with waterbenders? Wouldn't that environment be just as favorable for waterbending as earth, if not even more so.

No, waterbending seems to only originate in places covered with ice and snow, so coastal earth villages would still be earth only. It also appears that once an individual has begun bending an element, that individual becomes locked in and can only bend that single element, so once everyone in a particular area started bending earth, having a waterbender appear there would become less and less likely due to the inclination to lean towards earth caused by being surrounded by earthbenders.


Perhaps it's a matter of being close to where the original bending animal and/or strongest spiritual connection for that element is? Peoples living high in the mountains where air-bison roamed might travel, but come home to where their herds and spiritual mentors are most comfortable. Same with dragons and badgermoles, while the major spiritual oasis for the Water Tribes is at the poles of the planet (or at least one of them). Perhaps then different settlements might have bending that originates from other places, but without spiritual support from either the original teachers or a strong population and tradition of benders of that particular element, it just fades out over the generations and doesn't show up after a while as the people assimilate.

This is certainly possible. It would help immensely for this theory if we knew whether Toph was certain to be an earthbender before she met the badger moles, since she's the most direct example we have of someone that learned her bending directly from the source.

[Xondoure]

Uhh... swamp benders?

[Brother Oni]

Those are some very conservative estimates anyhow and fails to take into account that there are also potentials from people who relearn the art from the air bison (this is still possible since there is an in world example of someone learning bending from the root animal of the style- Toph, who learned earthbending from the badgermoles) and things like Bumi's (The non-bending son of Aang and Katara) children being able to bend air as well.

Oh most definitely they're very conservative estimates. What do you think would be a generous estimate? We could take the average of the two to get a better figure.

I had intentionally ignored people who could learn air bending from the air bison, because they wouldn't be air nomads and hence part of the air nation - they'd simply be people who know air bending, with little knowledge of Air Nation culture (the point could be argued that Aang also has limited knowledge of Air Nation culture, but he's the only living source they have).

Do we have any information on Tenzin's nieces and nephews?


not necessarily..if Kyoshi is any indication Avatars tend to live a long, long life, possibly longer than average, unless they die of being murdered.
ok, Kyoshi was the one that lived the longest, true..but she did live to about 230 years of age. Aang's live was "cut short" due to his 100 years of hybernation, but he might have actually lived to become a 180 even had he not spent 100 of them covered in ice.

Kyoshi appears to be unique, even for an Avatar. I'm not so sure that using her as a guide to Avatar longevity is such a good idea.

On the plus side, it would increase the time for the Air Nation to recover until the next Air Avatar comes along.


Uhh... swamp benders?

Didn't we also have sand benders as well (they bison-napped Appa)?

[planswalker]

@pairodice:

I'm not saying that there should be someone else out there that can do what the avatar can do as easily as the avatar can do, clearly being reincarnated from a thousand different people and being able to call upon their wisdom would give you a major advantage in crossing the lines.

but why does that mean no one else has the ability to think flexibly enough to master more than one element?

as to the OOC argument, yeah, that'd be the reason OOC. I was looking more to dissect the IC perspective. However, I would like to point out to you that although we don't see anyone else ever do more than 1 element, we do see all sorts of people in the show who outclass the avatar with techniques he doesn't have. Toph figured out a whole new category of earthbending techniques that Aang never had, as far as we know. Kitara and blood manipulation. Electricity. Tremorsense. All sorts of people have goodies besides the avatar. I think the argument "because the protagonist gets all the goodies" is weaker in this show than your typical fair.


No, waterbending seems to only originate in places covered with ice and snow, so coastal earth villages would still be earth only.

foggy. swamp. tribe.


It also appears that once an individual has begun bending an element, that individual becomes locked in and can only bend that single element, so once everyone in a particular area started bending earth, having a waterbender appear there would become less and less likely due to the inclination to lean towards earth caused by being surrounded by earthbenders.

That doesn't get you to exclusivity, and I thought your point was that it was regional, not whom you surround yourself by.

[Anarion]

foggy. swamp. tribe.


Woops forgot about them. Not sure what to make of that. It could still be regional and their variation on waterbending with plants and boats was developed independently and was a specific swamp thing.



That doesn't get you to exclusivity, and I thought your point was that it was regional, not whom you surround yourself by.

Sorry I was unclear there. I was proposing it was regional, and you could, very rarely, have a waterbender in a coastal region or some such. But if a region supports both water and earthbenders and nearly everyone there is an earthbender, then it's more likely that people would gravitate towards learning earthbending. Since part of my suggestion was that selecting an element locks you into that element, the fact that people surrounded by earthbenders would be prone to attempting earthbending first in regions that could support multiple types of bending suggests that the community could have a further influence in what would otherwise be mixed regions.

[planswalker]

Woops forgot about them. Not sure what to make of that. It could still be regional and their variation on waterbending with plants and boats was developed independently and was a specific swamp thing.

it does mean though that saying no ice= no water is shot through though. If the foggy swamp could develop their own thing, no reason the smelly fishing village couldn't too. the chance of waterbenders at this fishing village is possible. Since you and I have come to an agreement on this, I'll just let it go.


Sorry I was unclear there. I was proposing it was regional, and you could, very rarely, have a waterbender in a coastal region or some such. But if a region supports both water and earthbenders and nearly everyone there is an earthbender, then it's more likely that people would gravitate towards learning earthbending. Since part of my suggestion was that selecting an element locks you into that element, the fact that people surrounded by earthbenders would be prone to attempting earthbending first in regions that could support multiple types of bending suggests that the community could have a further influence in what would otherwise be mixed regions.

okay, your argument passes an in-universe consistency check well enough to pass my muster.

I still think it being something of a spiritual inheritance is cleaner, simpler, and has fewer issues to it, but I can understand and respect your theory.

[Brother Oni]

Sorry I was unclear there. I was proposing it was regional, and you could, very rarely, have a waterbender in a coastal region or some such. But if a region supports both water and earthbenders and nearly everyone there is an earthbender, then it's more likely that people would gravitate towards learning earthbending. Since part of my suggestion was that selecting an element locks you into that element, the fact that people surrounded by earthbenders would be prone to attempting earthbending first in regions that could support multiple types of bending suggests that the community could have a further influence in what would otherwise be mixed regions.

The only problem with the regional theory is that everybody is constantly surrounded by air, thus air benders should theoretically be distributed throughout every region, not just in remote temples on top of mountains.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

@pairodice:

I'm not saying that there should be someone else out there that can do what the avatar can do as easily as the avatar can do, clearly being reincarnated from a thousand different people and being able to call upon their wisdom would give you a major advantage in crossing the lines.

but why does that mean no one else has the ability to think flexibly enough to master more than one element?

It's not a matter of "thinking flexibly"--we know that mastering the technical principles behind bending a particular element doesn't let you bend that element, since Iroh studied the waterbenders and couldn't waterbend. I'm not trying to explain why people can't bend more than one element, since that wasn't ever part of the initial "where does bending come from?" discussion. I'm just positing an explanation for how which element you can bend could be determined, given that only the Avatar can bend more than one.


as to the OOC argument, yeah, that'd be the reason OOC. I was looking more to dissect the IC perspective. However, I would like to point out to you that although we don't see anyone else ever do more than 1 element, we do see all sorts of people in the show who outclass the avatar with techniques he doesn't have. Toph figured out a whole new category of earthbending techniques that Aang never had, as far as we know. Kitara and blood manipulation. Electricity. Tremorsense. All sorts of people have goodies besides the avatar. I think the argument "because the protagonist gets all the goodies" is weaker in this show than your typical fair.

1) Protagonists, plural, get the goodies. In most fantasy there's one more-or-less main character with a unique schtick, but the other protagonists get their own fancy stuff too.

2) Having all the past lives wouldn't necessarily make the Avatar the best with every element unless those past lives were the best bending masters ever, any more than sticking all the knowledge of a physicist, a philosopher, an astronomer, and a mathematician in your brain would make you the scientific equal of Stephen Hawking. It simply means that where most people can get their skills up to a 9 or 10 out of 10 in one element in their lifetime, the Avatar effectively has the time to get up to a 7 or 8 out of 10 in all the elements in his or her lifetime.

[Brother Oni]

1) Protagonists, plural, get the goodies. In most fantasy there's one more-or-less main character with a unique schtick, but the other protagonists get their own fancy stuff too.

In most fiction, the antagonists get some fun toys too, simply because they need them to match up with the protagonists.
It's far more common in shonen manga, but you see it in Avatar too (Sparky Sparky Boom man for example).

[PairO'Dice Lost]

In most fiction, the antagonists get some fun toys too, simply because they need them to match up with the protagonists.
It's far more common in shonen manga, but you see it in Avatar too (Sparky Sparky Boom man for example).

Granted. I was just saying it's more likely for the protagonists to get more tricky/creative perks while the bad guys get the raw power (like Explosion Man, actually), since the audience loves rooting for the underdog.

[dehro]

that sounds like a fine explanation to me, if you can explain to me why no one ever has figured out how to master 2 or more elements of bending without being the avatar. I don't see why, according to this theory, you couldn't have someone with a flexible enough mind bend 2, 3, or possibly even all four elements.


inprinting. like ducks.
once you start bending one element, unless you're the avatar, the others are precluded to you.
a more articulate reply..
if you have bending potential it could be that it's because you've got spiritual genes (genetics or your ancestor peeking over your shoulder, take your pick). if it so happens that you have a number of benders of different flavours in your gene-pool what makes the difference is the cultural environment, which is tied into where you live.. but not exclusively..
so education, national pride, social and geographical environment all conspire to turn your "local" gene in the pool into the dominant gene.
once you've developed your bending, you're done and your other genes or spiritual sources shrivel into nothingness/nonbendingness. the avatar is a cool dude and his ancestors stay strong and talk to him despite being of other nations., which keeps his spiritual source of bending power open to all elements.
Also, the current potential for mixed heritage is a fairly new thing. we have always seen 4 very, very distinct nations, cultures, looks and set of traditions/values/habits. Even in the colonies, people stuck with their own kind..this to me means that international travel was really not a common thing at all. only modern transportation has made it easier for people to mingle..that, and the new city.

In other news, Sifu Kisu, the martial arts consultant for the show, is on tumblr, and the fandom is performing some bizarre and unholy ritual that combines trolling and fan-worshiping him.
but... how? I don't even...:smalleek:

[TheTick]

Shifting gears for a bit...does anyone else think that Amon is the benefactor that helped Sato when he first started out trying to build up his company? They snuck that note in there and nobody asked him about it, seems like the exact sort of thing that will come up in the future.

[planswalker]

I'm not trying to explain why people can't bend more than one element, since that wasn't ever part of the initial "where does bending come from?" discussion.

that's fine and all, but I was specifically asking you why, under your theory, no one else could bend more than one. I was talking to you under the assumption you would answer my question by responding to me.

[John Cribati]

but... how? I don't even...:smalleek:

They're asking him shipping questions, mostly. In his own words, he ships Makorra but isn't crazy with it.

[Person_Man]

1. Pro-bending is a sport.
2. She was roped into the task force.

The avatar is not some person who always has the same personality. Roku was an old man, with a ton of experience. We don't know a lot about his nature, although he was definitely more lighthearted in his youth. Aang was a big pacifist. But Korra is a hot-headed girl with barely any knowledge of how the city works. The important thing? They're all good-natured. Korra may not know how to restrain herself or what type of bending would be best in a situation, while Aang was much more restrained and knowledgeable, but she's good-hearted. In Exalted terms, she has low Temperance, high Valor, and probably a Compassion of three (average is two, max is five). Kyoshi was average or low Compassion, high Conviction. Aang had a high Compassion, probably average for the other Virtues.

I'm not arguing that Korra isn't a nice person. I'm arguing that empirically, she uses violence repeatedly, and that previous Avatars have also used violence repeatedly to maintain the oppressive Bender dominated status quo, and that this status quo is deeply undemocratic, and unfair to non-benders.

[Reverent-One]

I'm not arguing that Korra isn't a nice person. I'm arguing that empirically, she uses violence repeatedly, and that previous Avatars have also used violence repeatedly to maintain the oppressive Bender dominated status quo, and that this status quo is deeply undemocratic, and unfair to non-benders.

Then you need to show evidence that the benders are oppresive and unfair to non-benders. We've seen non-bender leadership, and in fact, most of the national leaders from the orginal series were non-benders. And we have never seen an avatar stepping on non-benders just because they happened to have some power in order to put benders on top.

[LordShotGun]

Then you need to show evidence that the benders are oppresive and unfair to non-benders. We've seen non-bender leadership, and in fact, most of the national leaders from the orginal series were non-benders. And we have never seen an avatar stepping on non-benders just because they happened to have some power in order to put benders on top.

I don't know about most, but at least the earth king was normal (as far as we know) but even he could be excluded after being pretty much held in seclusion his entire life by a bender.

Water tribes? Benders
Fire Nation? Super uber Benders
Air Nomads? Benders

[Reverent-One]

I don't know about most, but at least the earth king was normal (as far as we know) but even he could be excluded after being pretty much held in seclusion his entire life by a bender.

Water tribes? Benders
Fire Nation? Super uber Benders
Air Nomads? Benders

I don't remember seeing the leader of the northern water tribe bending (or Gran-gran or Hakoda for the southern water tribe). And the air nomads were A) wiped out, and B) all benders, so how can they avoid having leadership that is benders?

[Absol197]

I don't know about most, but at least the earth king was normal (as far as we know) but even he could be excluded after being pretty much held in seclusion his entire life by a bender.

Water tribes? Benders
Fire Nation? Super uber Benders
Air Nomads? Benders

Chiefs Arnook and Hakoda were both non-benders, and incredibly respected by their people and the Avatar.

As mentioned, the Air Nomads were all benders, so they don't really count.

Yes, the Fire Nation was dominated by the bending royal family, but they were the bad guys, weren't they? But still, several of their influential noble houses were entirely non-benders, like Mai and Ty Lee's families.

The Earth Kingdom also doesn't appear to have very much oppression going on. The Earth King was a nonbender, and once he woke up and got himself out from under Long Feng's thumb, he was a competent and respected leader. Also, their noble class seemes to be made up of mostly non-benders (such as Toph's parents, the, "Richest family in the world," according to that one earthbending kid), so all the people who have the power in that society don't have the bending-type power.

Also, allowing myself to get drawn into the "where does bending come from" discussion, I've always pictured it working like this.

Each person, whether they are a bender or not, is spiritually associated or aligned with one of the elements. This alignment is inherited from one of their parents (or both, if both their parents share the same alignment). If the person has the ability to bend, they bend their aligned element.

The reason that all of the distinct nations only had one kind of bender then becomes obvious: everyone in the Water Tribes is water-aligned, so all of their benders are water benders. The Earth Kingdom has only earth-aligned people, so all of their benders are earthbenders, and so on. However, in the United Republic, people from all nations are mingling, allowing different family members to have different alignments.

So (for example), a non-bender, fire-aligned father and a non-bender, earth-aligned mother could have two kids, both benders, but one fire-aligned and one earth-aligned. Those kids would be a firebender and an earthbender, because those are the elements they are aligned with. Who your grandparents are don't matter, insomuch as what alignment they had, only your parents matter for what alignments you can have.

So, if that earthbender were to marry and have kids with, say, someone from the water tribes, their children could be either water- or earth- aligned. The fact that their grandfather was fire-aligned wouldn't matter.

*Please note, this section is not meant to support or deny any specific ship :smallbiggrin:*

Now, a group of people is capable of changing their alignment, by taking up and devoting themselves to the philosophies of a different element. It's a difficult process, and it should usually take generations to do, but they can unalign themselves, and them realign themselves with a different element. This is what I expect the Air Acolytes are doing. By imersing themselves in the teachings and lifestyle of the Air Nomads, they are disassociating themselves with their previous elements, whatever those were, and realigning themselves with air.

Where did these alignments come from originally? In some interview some time ago, the creators said everyone began as tribal societies. We know that before the Avatar, there was no elemental bending, so at some point, the various tribes began to take up the philosophies of the different elements, and study the bending of the bending animals/moon. Through a process similar to realigning themselves, the various tribal societies gained an alignment to one of the different elements. It's likely tht then, the various tribes that shared elements came to gether to form larger nations, giving us the Avatar-verse as we know it.

I don't know whether energybending comes from being unaligned, or if it is a different alignment of its own, but wither way, it proved to not pass on as readily as an elemental alignment, and eventually everyone ended up with an alignment to one of the elements.

With all this laid out, my personal pet theory about Amon, with the big assumption that I am the sole person to correctly divine the creators intentions of how bending works, is that he's not taking away a person's bending: he's removing their elemental alignment. They are still benders, but they aren't aligned with any element, and so can't bend any element. If their alignment could be restored, such as by devoting themselves to their element's tenets (or even those of a different element!), then their bending would come back.

(Please note most of this is unfounded, just personal opinion).

[Lord Raziere]

well here is the thing: the two benders that were oppressing people were Firelord Ozai and that Dai Li guy, and they were both foiled remember? furthermore they only came about because of a very long war. very long wars can turn anything to trash.

and they were the FIRE and EARTH nations. Air and Water were pretty kind in comparison. Meaning the only benders, that really oppressed people, were the ones that are mostly likely to oppress people in times of war anyways, and even then, the people doing the oppressing was like two guys while everyone else followed orders.

and all that ended 70 years ago. so…unless there is evidence of oppressing now….. the situation has actually improved. that and if a firebender and an earthbender can't get good jobs in a city of benders, maybe the oppression isn't as one-sided as you would think. Cause really, if you can't find uses for fire and earth in a city….your doing something wrong, cause those are arguably the things cities are built upon the most.

[Soras Teva Gee]

but why does that mean no one else has the ability to think flexibly enough to master more than one element?

The utter dearth of evidence. We have cases where another element has lifted the approach of another element (sandbending, lightning redirection) so various masters have zero issue studying concepts from other benders... but we've no evidence this translate into a capacity to actually bend anything else.

Given the shock when say Korra bends more then one, until this capacity is established we have to go with no one can bend more then one is just the law of bending.

[planswalker]

The utter dearth of evidence. We have cases where another element has lifted the approach of another element (sandbending, lightning redirection) so various masters have zero issue studying concepts from other benders... but we've no evidence this translate into a capacity to actually bend anything else.

Given the shock when say Korra bends more then one, until this capacity is established we have to go with no one can bend more then one is just the law of bending.

that's a great defense for why we say that canon says there aren't any multibenders besides the avatar, but that actually was not the conversation I was having.

I was talking with pair'o'dice about his pet theory for how bending is passed from generation to generation, and his theory as he had stated it would allow that possibility and I was asking him to justify how his theory reconciled the fact that canon never has multibenders who aren't the avatar.

[Kobold-Bard]

Not wanting to get in trouble again, I figured I should check.

Is it ok to link to a clip/trailer from episode 6, since it's not the whole episode. Or does that count as breaking the rules?

[BRC]

Not wanting to get in trouble again, I figured I should check.

Is it ok to link to a clip/trailer from episode 6, since it's not the whole episode. Or does that count as breaking the rules?
If it's been officially released by Nick it's perfectly fine. They want people to see that.

[Absol197]

Since I don't see any mention of an episode leak, I assume that's what it is.

Here it is (http://vimeo.com/41808962). Remember to use spoilers if discussing it.

Huh. Well, that's ominous. I wonder what will happen, it's not like we've seen anything like that in any TV spots or anything (:smallwink:) .

[John Cribati]

If it's the clip of Amon on the radio, it's officially released.

[Silverraptor]

Oh, yeah! I'm so excited for the next episode!:smallbiggrin:

[Morty]

Musings related to the teaser:
I do wonder how Amon keeps hijacking the radio...

[Dienekes]

Musings related to the teaser:
I do wonder how Amon keeps hijacking the radio...

It's actually a clue
This entire time, Amon is just some guy who works at the radio station. That's it.

Also just sharing this spoiler. Thank you! I don't want to watch 2 episodes entirely about a sport I don't care about. Let Amon's assault commence!

[thubby]

Musings related to the teaser:
I do wonder how Amon keeps hijacking the radio...

it's not that hard.
all you need is a signal significantly stronger than whatever you're trying to override.

it would mean some decent equipment but it's not like they'd have to assault a radio station or something.

[Person_Man]

Then you need to show evidence that the benders are oppresive and unfair to non-benders. We've seen non-bender leadership, and in fact, most of the national leaders from the orginal series were non-benders. And we have never seen an avatar stepping on non-benders just because they happened to have some power in order to put benders on top.

Evidence that benders oppress non-benders:

1) Under the leadership of the bender Fire Lords, the Fire Nation launched the 100 year war, which killed and oppressed countless civilians, mostly non-benders.

2) During the course of the original series, various fire benders were repeatedly shown to abuse non-benders in a wide variety of ways.

3) The Fire Nation is ruled by a hereditary monarchy of fire benders. The Fire Nation military, whose generals form the only advisory council to the Fore Lord, is dominated by fire benders. Non-benders in the Fire Nation have no democratic rights.

4) The Earth Kingdom is ruled by a hereditary monarchy. During the course of the original series, the true power behind the throne within the Earth Kingdom was Grand Secretariat of Ba Sing Se and head of the Dai Li, the earth bender Long Feng. The Dai Li were an earth bender secret police force, who worked to capture, interrogate, imprison, and brainwash political dissidents. The Dai li was founded by bender Avatar Kyoshi. Non-benders civilians in the Earth Nation have no democratic rights. When the non-bender Chin attempted to overthrow the Earth King, he was stopped by bender Avatar Kyoshi, whose actions led directly to his death.

5) Air Nomads were a theocratic, monastic order. All Air Nomads presented have been benders. After their genocide, no new Air Nomad bender were born into the world for over 100 years, until Avatar Aang had children (and even then, only 1 out of 3 of his children were born as air benders). This implies that there is a genetic component to bending, and that genocide can in fact eliminate bending from the world. There are currently 4 Air Nomads on the planet. Despite this limited population, they hold a seat on the United Republic Council. Thus they represent 1/5 of the population of the United Republic, even though they represent a tiny fraction of the world's population. There is no evidence to show that Tenzin was elected to this position. It is more likely that Avatar Aang used his position as Avatar to secure the seat for his son, a clear sign of nepotism.

6) The Water Tribes are ruled by Tribal Chiefs. Some of whom have been non-benders. It's unclear exactly how these chiefs are selected (Princess Yue was obviously royalty of some type in the Northern Water Tribe), but it's clear that water benders play a strong role in the governance and defense of the Water Tribes. The Northern Water Tribal government clearly enforces gender discrimination, limiting most women to purely domestic and healing tasks. Also, the Northern and Southern Water Tribes each have a seat on the United Republic Council, despite the fact that their total combined populations are much smaller then either the Earth or Fire Nations. So in this instance, it's not really benders per se who are oppressive, two tiny nations of people whose governments have been propped up/defended/maintained by water benders.

7) When the 100 year war was violently ended in combat between the Avatar and Phoenix King, the benders Avatar Aang and Fire Lord Zuko unilaterally decided to maintain the separate non-democratic nations, and form a new nation in the United Republic, which ironically does not include any democratically elected representation from the people of the Republic itself.

8) The government, police force, and criminal gangs in Republic City are dominated by benders. The bender government has formed a task force to hunt down, arrest, and unilaterally jail non-benders who threaten their position, even though no Equalists have ever been charged with or tried for any crimes.

Based on this information, it is clear that benders have and continue to oppress non-benders. Benders dominate most of the institutions of power, and often use those institutions to dominate society or fight destructive wars against each other.

The Avatar seeks to maintain this status quo of oppression, by maintaining the "balance" between the bender nations. Balance is not a good thing if it is balance between bender dominated monarchies and oligarchies. CHANGE toward democracy and equality would be a positive thing.

[Lord Raziere]

And guess what.

An in-universe person probably wouldn't see anything you are talking about as problems.

Your still viewing things through ethnocentrism.

You have to understand where their culture is coming from and why they have these things that we would consider oppressive.

To show people the way, you gotta know where they are coming from.

and guess what? where they are coming from ain't from your direction.

you might as well protest the feudal systems in DnD or the governments in Exalted. if you don't understand why they are they way they are, all your being is a jerk who can't see past his own culture.

I'm not saying that these are not problems, they are, by modern standards.

its just that, before you can dish it out, condemn the Avatarverse for being full of oppression and whatnot, maybe you should look at things from their point of view first, see why they are like that, walk a mile in their shoes, Person Man. if your so hung up about balance and equality, you gotta understand why its not there, see why the culture don't have it, before you can start changing things up.

otherwise, if you go in and start arbitrarily changing up the status quo cause it don't jive with your definition of a good society or whatever, your just as bad an oppressor cause it wouldn't be willing change towards something better, it'd just be forcing people to accept your beliefs, and that isn't good at all.

and since when did we watch shows for their stunning portrayals of good societies, good people and how great the world is? all the inequalities are there cause it creates conflict for the story-writers to use so that we can watch them, take away too many inequalities and you got no story, just fact.
:smallconfused:

[Dienekes]

For the record, while I love democracy (or more accurately I love representative republics but let's not get boggled down in jargon) as much as the next guy. You do understand that there are certain social, technological, and economic prerequisites required for making it function as a form of government.

During the war, maybe the Northern Water Tribe could have worked as one mostly do to their small size. The Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation most definitely do not have the shown technology necessary to make democracies a working political structure. Simply because the process of voting and counting votes is a ridiculously long and arduous one.

Now in this new series such technological advancements seem possible and even likely to occur making democracy a much more attractive option, but quite a lot of your points are moot.

Keep it in the new series where the development and implementation of democratic ideals are even possible. And even then, the development of democracies doesn't actually directly result in the subjugation or lack of subjugation of their non-benders.

For instance, you keep using the Council as though it is a direct representation of population. However, honestly, I thought it was much more like the United Nations. Everyone has a seat, and together they look over the goals of their represented nation and as a sign of cooperation rule a city together.

The subjugation of non-benders would be at a national level. Historically the Fire Nation is a kingdom (obvious problems there), dominated by benders. So to enact democratic change it has to be worked from that level. Same with the Earth Kingdom, and the Water Tribes. By holding representatives of the government hostage or attacking them you cannot hope to fundamentally change the running of their parent government. It's a ridiculous and stupid plan.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

that's fine and all, but I was specifically asking you why, under your theory, no one else could bend more than one. I was talking to you under the assumption you would answer my question by responding to me.

And I answered your question. The answer just didn't happen to appeal to you. Once again, my analogy addressed how your element gets chosen, not why you get locked into one element, just like the "closest elemental concentration" theory and the "elemental alignment" theory and the others take as a given that you can only bend one.


It's actually a clueThis entire time, Amon is just some guy who works at the radio station. That's it.

While Amon is likely not some random radio worker, I do wonder whether he's merely overriding the signal with a stronger one or whether he actually has agents/followers inside the radio station. He had to arrange to get his meeting space somehow, he's interrupting radio broadcasts, and he's attacking pro bending arena; it would seem to me that he's the kind of guy to infiltrate lots of different parts of society to turn them to his advantage, the revolutionary equivalent of planting people in the crowd before a speech. It'll be interesting to see how that turns out.

[Zevox]

1) Under the leadership of the bender Fire Lords, the Fire Nation launched the 100 year war, which killed and oppressed countless civilians, mostly non-benders.

2) During the course of the original series, various fire benders were repeatedly shown to abuse non-benders in a wide variety of ways.
The Fire Nation's war was one of conquest of the other nations, bender and non-bender alike. They forbade bending of other elements in regions they conquered and imprisoned known benders (see the earthbender prison from season 1). This is not bender oppression of non-benders at all, it's oppression of everyone not of the Fire Nation - simply evidence that the Fire Nation's actions in the Hundred Year War were atrocious in general.


3) The Fire Nation is ruled by a hereditary monarchy of fire benders. The Fire Nation military, whose generals form the only advisory council to the Fore Lord, is dominated by fire benders. Non-benders in the Fire Nation have no democratic rights.

4) The Earth Kingdom is ruled by a hereditary monarchy. During the course of the original series, the true power behind the throne within the Earth Kingdom was Grand Secretariat of Ba Sing Se and head of the Dai Li, the earth bender Long Feng. The Dai Li were an earth bender secret police force, who worked to capture, interrogate, imprison, and brainwash political dissidents. The Dai li was founded by bender Avatar Kyoshi. Non-benders civilians in the Earth Nation have no democratic rights. When the non-bender Chin attempted to overthrow the Earth King, he was stopped by bender Avatar Kyoshi, whose actions led directly to his death.
You're making bending and non-bending out to be important in those things when they are not. No one in the Avatar-verse, bender or non-bender, has democratic rights, as each nation is ruled by a monarchy, tribal leadership, or (in the past) a monastic order. Some of those leaders are benders, some are not. There is also no evidence of any instance where there was any sort of institutionalized oppression of non-benders in any of those societies.


5) Air Nomads were a theocratic, monastic order. All Air Nomads presented have been benders.
More than that, the creators of the show have confirmed that all Air Nomads period were benders. Which makes it impossible for their society to represent any form of oppression of non-benders.


There are currently 4 Air Nomads on the planet. Despite this limited population, they hold a seat on the United Republic Council. Thus they represent 1/5 of the population of the United Republic, even though they represent a tiny fraction of the world's population. There is no evidence to show that Tenzin was elected to this position. It is more likely that Avatar Aang used his position as Avatar to secure the seat for his son, a clear sign of nepotism.
Again, there is no democracy anywhere in the Avatar-verse - which has nothing to do with bending. The Council in Republic City is made up of representatives of the four nations because the city itself was created to represent a peaceful coalition of them. Since Aang and Tenzin are attempting to restore the Air Nomad culture and nation, they were included.


6) The Water Tribes are ruled by Tribal Chiefs, some of whom have been non-benders.
Correction: all of whom that we know of have been non-benders.


However, the Northern Water Tribal government clearly enforces gender discrimination, limiting most women to purely domestic and healing tasks.
Which has nothing to do with being benders or non-benders, and may perhaps have changed in the past decades as a result of Katara's actions in the first series.


7) When the 100 year war was violently ended in combat between the Avatar and Phoenix King, the benders Avatar Aang and Fire Lord Zuko unilaterally decided to maintain the separate non-democratic nations, and form a new nation in the United Republic, which ironically does not include any democratically elected representation from the people of the Republic itself.
...and this represents oppression of non-benders how? It's simply a continuation of the status-quo of the world. A status-quo which you have not shown to include any sort of opression of non-benders by benders.


8) The government, police force, and criminal gangs in Republic City are dominated by benders.
The government, perhaps - we know Tenzin and the northern water tribe representative are benders, but the other three are unclear. In any event, that in itself does not represent oppression of non-benders - you would need to point to oppressive policies they enact for this to be the case.

The police force, not clear at all - we have seen the metalbender corps among it, but we have also seen a regular cop who did not appear to be a bender. And in any event, even if it is, this in itself would not constitute oppression of non-benders in any way - you would need to show the police engaging in some form of abuse of their status over non-benders to make that case.

The gangs, also unclear since we've seen only a select few of them, and kind of irrelevant since they're simply criminals - being benders just means they abuse those powers instead of more mundane weapons.

In short, much of your argument appears to boil down to "benders run things." Which is true in some - but not by any means all - cases. Even if it were true in all cases though, it would not constitute oppression of non-benders. It is how things are run, not by whom, that defines whether a group is being oppressed.


The bender government has formed a task force to hunt down, arrest, and unilaterally jail non-benders who threaten their position, even though no Equalists have ever been charged with or tried for any crimes.
The Equalists are lead by a man who has openly declared that he is leading a revolution against benders (see his announcement over the radio in the most recent episode). A man who has demonstrated the ability to take benders' ability away by force, claims the effect is permanent, and has openly stated his intention to do so to all benders. They are a criminal group by definition, and fully deserve to be dealt with as one. Whatever tensions they're tapping into for their support may well be another matter, but that's a matter for politics to resolve, not violent uprisings.

Simply put, even if Amon had a point - and we thus far have no reason to believe he does - his solution is nothing short of oppression of benders. He's creating a problem, not solving one.

Zevox

[t209]

Question- How do people get entertained by listening to sport events (not just pro bending, like footballs)? You can't see the action and the report are too vague.
I am no stranger to it since I heard the stories about the radio from my grandparents and parents since there was no TV in Burma until 1980s.

[Reverent-One]

4) The Earth Kingdom is ruled by a hereditary monarchy. During the course of the original series, the true power behind the throne within the Earth Kingdom was Grand Secretariat of Ba Sing Se and head of the Dai Li, the earth bender Long Feng. The Dai Li were an earth bender secret police force, who worked to capture, interrogate, imprison, and brainwash political dissidents. The Dai li was founded by bender Avatar Kyoshi. Non-benders civilians in the Earth Nation have no democratic rights. When the non-bender Chin attempted to overthrow the Earth King, he was stopped by bender Avatar Kyoshi, whose actions led directly to his death.

Everyone else basically covered everything, but I'll add one other thing on this point. While a bender did set up an oppresive rule in the Earth Kingdom over a non-bender, what did Aang do immediately after finding out about this? If you're right, he should have supported the oppresive, bending status-quo. But instead he tried to set the non-bender ruler back in power.

And why mention that non-benders civilians have no democratic rights when as far as we know, bender civilians have no democratic rights as well? It just means the government isn't a democracy, not that benders oppress non-benders.

[Lord Raziere]

Also, Korra, the Avatar herself, was arrested for trashing up shops run by non-benders. somewhat accidentally.

if the Avatar can get arrested for trashing up normal peoples shops, non-benders probably aren't being oppressed.

[Absol197]

Evidence that benders oppress non-benders:

1) Under the leadership of the bender Fire Lords, the Fire Nation launched the 100 year war, which killed and oppressed countless civilians, mostly non-benders.

2) During the course of the original series, various fire benders were repeatedly shown to abuse non-benders in a wide variety of ways.

3) The Fire Nation is ruled by a hereditary monarchy of fire benders. The Fire Nation military, whose generals form the only advisory council to the Fire Lord, is dominated by fire benders. Non-benders in the Fire Nation have no democratic rights.

First off, these three points are off the mark. Sozin didn't start the war, and Azulon and Ozai didn't continue it because some bender/non-bender issues; the war was all about national imperialism. They wanted their country, the Fire Nation, to be spread over the entire world, with them ruling it. That's not oppressing non-benders, that's oppressing everyone who's not Fire Nation, bender or no. We also see plenty of firebenders (and non-bender fire nation soldiers) oppresing benders in the first series. Do you remember the whole metal frigate where they had hundreds of earthbenders imprisoned? The warden wasn't a bender. That was cultural imperialism, and WAR. And, you'll notice, the Avatar did everything in his power to put an end to that, for the betterment of everyone.


4) The Earth Kingdom is ruled by a hereditary monarchy. During the course of the original series, the true power behind the throne within the Earth Kingdom was Grand Secretariat of Ba Sing Se and head of the Dai Li, the earth bender Long Feng. The Dai Li were an earth bender secret police force, who worked to capture, interrogate, imprison, and brainwash political dissidents. The Dai li was founded by bender Avatar Kyoshi. Non-benders civilians in the Earth Nation have no democratic rights. When the non-bender Chin attempted to overthrow the Earth King, he was stopped by bender Avatar Kyoshi, whose actions led directly to his death.

Monarchies aren't, by their very nature, bad. One of the most influential countries in the world, one where we take a lot of our laws from, is technically a monarchy, and its populace is generally happy and free to do as they want.

As for the situation in Ba Sing Se, as I mentioned before, once Earth King Kuei was shown the reality of the war, and Long Feng was taken down, he became a competent and respected leader, even though he isn't a bender. Also, many of the Earth Kingdom nobles we see are also not benders, meaning their upper class, those who have all the social power, are the people you say were being "oppressed."

Just because Avatar Kyoshi founded the Dai Li doesn't mean she meant for them to become the secret police that they turned into several hundred years later. In fact, I believe she meant for them to be just the opposite. She isn't responsible for corrupt people coming to power after her death, and then warping the organization she started.

And Chin wasn't a non-bender. In one of the few clips we see of him, he earthbends an opponent to send him flying away.


5) Air Nomads were a theocratic, monastic order. All Air Nomads presented have been benders. After their genocide, no new Air Nomad bender were born into the world for over 100 years, until Avatar Aang had children (and even then, only 1 out of 3 of his children were born as air benders). This implies that there is a genetic component to bending, and that genocide can in fact eliminate bending from the world. There are currently 4 Air Nomads on the planet. Despite this limited population, they hold a seat on the United Republic Council. Thus they represent 1/5 of the population of the United Republic, even though they represent a tiny fraction of the world's population. There is no evidence to show that Tenzin was elected to this position. It is more likely that Avatar Aang used his position as Avatar to secure the seat for his son, a clear sign of nepotism.

There's also no evidence that the council is meant to represent all the people equally. It's entirely possible that it was set up so that each element's philosophical views could be represented, so that the decisions reached could be fair and balanced. That was Aang's big thing, balance between opposing viewpoints.


7) When the 100 year war was violently ended in combat between the Avatar and Phoenix King, the benders Avatar Aang and Fire Lord Zuko unilaterally decided to maintain the separate non-democratic nations, and form a new nation in the United Republic, which ironically does not include any democratically elected representation from the people of the Republic itself.

Aang and Zuko didn't decide to maintain the nations as separate. They decided that, instead of ruining the lives of the thousands of people who lived in the colonies (benders and non-benders) by uprooting them and returning them to the Fire Nation, that instead, both the Fire Nation and the Earth Kingdom should relinquish their claims to the territory, and set up a new country. The Earth King, and likely the Water Chiefs, were also in on this decision. So, a 3/5 non-bender-to-bender ratio was for the formation of the city.


8) The government, police force, and criminal gangs in Republic City are dominated by benders. The bender government has formed a task force to hunt down, arrest, and unilaterally jail non-benders who threaten their position, even though no Equalists have ever been charged with or tried for any crimes.

You'll note, however, that Tenzin, the guy on the council you said shouldn't even be there, voted against Tarrlock's task force. And they weren't doing anything to stop or oppress the Equalists before Amon's rally. After he essentially started spirit-raping citizens, they came to the decision that he needed to be stopped. That seems like a logical move to me. The fact that they were all benders, and so likely eventual targets of said spirit-rape may have accelerated that decision, but I'm fairly sure they would have made it, even if they were all non-benders.


Based on this information, it is clear that benders have and continue to oppress non-benders. Benders dominate most of the institutions of power, and often use those institutions to dominate society or fight destructive wars against each other.

The Avatar seeks to maintain this status quo of oppression, by maintaining the "balance" between the bender nations. Balance is not a good thing if it is balance between bender dominated monarchies and oligarchies. CHANGE toward democracy and equality would be a positive thing.

You seem to think that anything other than a democracy is completely horrible. While I agree, it is much easier for the leader/rulers to be abusive towards their citizens in most other forms of government, that doesn't mean they are necessarily a bad thing. Earth King Kuei, once he started actually acting like the king, and Fore Lord Zuko, both put all their effort inot protecting and attempting to advance their citizens.

Your claim that benders dominate all the institutions isn't backed up by what we see, and I'll reiterate:

The water tribes we see are lead by non-bending chiefs and nobles;
The Earth Kingdom, the largest nation, is headed by a non-bending king, and the majority of their noble class that we see is non-benders, as well;
The Air Nomads have no non-benders, and so can't be discriminatory towards them;
The Fire Nation is one of the only places where this seems to have a point, except that, like I mentioned before, the also have a large class of non-bending nobles (Mai and Ty Lee's families, to name two, plus Lo and Li's family), meaning non-benders aren't truly being discriminated against;
The Republic council is dominated by benders, but until Amon started actively acting like a terrorist, they didn't do anything to him and his movement.

As for the Avatar actively trying to oppress non-benders, I notice you didn't respond to my point about the Zhangs and the Gonjins. All non-benders, but Aang tried his hardest to help them out.

[dehro]

Person man...
there's so much wrong with your analysis of the situation that I'm glad 2 othe people took the time to point the flaws point by point.
saves me the bother.

one more observation if you like..
even HAD any of what you say been true and a mark of benders oppressing non-benders, and it's been shown that this is definitely not the case in pretty much all of your examples.. then still..the vast majority of those examples are in the past.
what happened during a 100 years war has very little relevance now, 70 years later, in Amon's actions... his entire policy is centered on what happens in Republic City. Any kind of purpoted bender oppression he's fighting against is entirely City-centered and doesn't mention the past in any way. If any form of non benders oppression has taken place, Republic City is the only place where this could ever have happened.. in the last 70 years...which makes most of your points totally irrelevant to the issue at hand.
And even then, the few points of your analysis of the situation that actually pertain to the situation itself have been debunked quite admirably.
try again, you might do better next time.

[BRC]

My guess is that there is no Direct oppression of non-benders in the form of them being second-class citizens or anything. However benders DO hold a disproportionate level of power in the city, we've talked at length about how it makes sense for employers to favor hiring Benders in many cases, and let's not count out the triads.

I know how a group of Criminals does not mean that all benders hate non-benders, but figure out it looks to your person on the street. Bending Triad members show up to threaten and extort you. They're able to keep going for the same reason organized criminal groups throughout the ages have (Corruption, Intimidation, lack of evidence, ect). The most visible arm of the law is the Metalbender Cops, who fly around in their airships. The most visible arm of the government is the Council, made up of benders (We know at least 2 of them are benders, and Tarlock implied the others were benders as well).

So, you see Bending criminals taking your money because the Bending council can't be bothered to send the bending cops to stop them.
It's not intentional discrimination, the Council can't move against the Triads for a variety of reasons. The Triads are not extorting money because you're non-benders, they're doing it because they have power and you do not.

Actually, thinking about it, I imagine that Triad gangsters avoid Bender-owned establishments for roughly the same reason that you don't try to hold up a gun store, but for the non-benders who have to hand their hard earned money over to a grinning Triad thug while their earthbending neighbor gets ignored, it can seem like the Benders are running everything.


That said, I'm contemplating Amon's reasons for targeting Pro-Bending. From a plot perspective it lets them bring the two arcs together, but what about from an in-universe perspective, why Pro-Bending?

Well, it's a celebration/glorification of the art of bending, which Amon would oppose on principle, but it seems risky to target something like that before he's earned mass support. Athletes are generally fairly uncontroversial, and therefore targeting them is a bad way to win support. Which means he's already confident in the support he has, and he's flexing his political muscles, seeing if he can get the Council to meet his demands.

Look at the way he phrased his message. He didn't just threaten to attack the arena, he demanded they shut down the finals. If the council agrees it sounds like they're scared of him. And it's never a good idea for a government to appear scared of a revolutionary.

[Dienekes]

If he was smart he'd just send a distraction to the arena and instead deal some real turmoil elsewhere. With his message he backed the Council into a corner. They can't agree to his demands on principle and so to make sure nothing goes wrong they will have that arena filled with cops and guards. Amon should make a loud noise at the arena and go for something far more useful for a revolutionary than interrupting a harmless sport show.

Hell he can even play it as proof of the arrogance of benders and the idiots that are in charge of the city in his next fireside chat. Sure, people would call foul, but as long as he plays up the fact that he embarrassed and outsmarted the benders his revolution will grow thinking just how smart their leader is.

[Zom B]

So it looks like I'm breaking in way late in the discussion, but I've been a fan of the original series and this one has so far not disappointed. I just have to wonder where this show can possibly go. The first series, the Books were the separate story of Aang learning each element. This time around, they're still referring to Books and individual elements, so one wonders what Book 2 can be about when she already knows Fire-, Water-, and Earth-bending.

I just hope that the writers don't forget what made the first season good. The characters' morals and ethics were challenged and forced to bend, such as the episode where Katara was forced to learn Bloodbending (a skill which, unfortunately, never came up again) and the numerous times Zuko had Aang at his mercy and spared him.

The characters themselves I am a little worried about. The first season gang was all interesting in their own way. This time around Bolin is basically Sokka repackaged, Korra might as well be Toph, and Mako is the quiet type, which tends to make for slow character development, as any of you who ever tried playing "the quiet type" character in an dice-and-paper RPG can attest.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

So it looks like I'm breaking in way late in the discussion, but I've been a fan of the original series and this one has so far not disappointed. I just have to wonder where this show can possibly go. The first series, the Books were the separate story of Aang learning each element. This time around, they're still referring to Books and individual elements, so one wonders what Book 2 can be about when she already knows Fire-, Water-, and Earth-bending.

I think most peoples' money is on Book 2 being Spirit. Korra is learning Air in book 1, but still shows very little evidence of any spiritual development, hasn't activated the Avatar State, etc. And of course if Amon actually is using energybending, Book 2's major conflict would be between an increasingly-spiritual Korra on the one hand and an anti-spiritual Amon on the other, possibly with the spirits interfering with the mortal world and with each other if Amon wasn't lying about his origin story.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Dammit, why are you giving in to domestic terrorists?

Also, I may not be remembering correctly, but the online game thingy refers to Toph in the present tense...

[John Cribati]

So.
One of the guys who worked for Korra is on Tumblr. (http://billrinaldi.tumblr.com/)

And he's aware of the "F***ing Hasook" Meme.

He's aware of the Howl(White Lotus Guard #3)/Korra crackship

And he's aware of the smut that has been written.

So yeah, Tumblr's releasing bricks into its pants as we speak.

[BRC]

Eh, Bolin is only Sokka in that he's the comic relief. Sokka was snarky and sarcastic, Bolin is more innocent and goofy.
As for Korra vs Toph, I'm not really seeing it. Toph had a rebellious edge to her that Korra lacks. Toph's big issue was proving she could take care of herself and taking orders from people (A side-effect of the way her parents coddled her). Korra isn't really rebellious, yes she ran away from home, but she did so with the approval of Katara and her parents. When she had trouble with the law, it was because she honestly didn't realize that it WASN'T her job to beat up scumbags in the street.
Yes she struggled a bit against Tenzin, but that was because of frustration more than rebellion. She never resented Tenzin for giving her orders, she resented that she wasn't able to airbend.

In some ways, Korra is the OPPOSITE of Toph. Korra is very insecure, she's insecure about her duty as the avatar, she's insecure about her ability to learn airbending, she's insecure about her ability to fight Amon. She's a naturally talented bender, so anytime something DOSN'T come easy to her she gets upset.

Heck, look at the shipping episode. When Mako says he likes her, Korra dosn't think "Oh, he likes two girls", she thinks "When you're with Asami, you're thinking about me". Korra is a mixture of overconfidence and insecurity, she's so certain about herself that when she fails it frustrates and scares her.

Toph on the other hand was all about confidence, though in her case it was less that she believed she was the center of the universe (she was very good, and she had a good appreciation for her own skills, but she didn't have Korra's egocentrism), and more that she didn't look to other people for validation. Toph didn't care what other people thought about her, and she hated being asked to conform to other people's standards.

Mako is pretty much the arch typical Quiet One. But he's shown enough genuine emotion to indicate that he's not a brooder, he's just a guy who dosn't talk very much.

[Anarion]

I'm not arguing that Korra isn't a nice person. I'm arguing that empirically, she uses violence repeatedly, and that previous Avatars have also used violence repeatedly to maintain the oppressive Bender dominated status quo, and that this status quo is deeply undemocratic, and unfair to non-benders.

Okay, sure. Korra's bad and should learn to solve problems with creativity and negotiations rather than violence and the society favors benders over non-benders to the point of oppression.

What part of the above justifies kidnapping, terror tactics, training a personal army or inflicting a fate worse than death on people?



Eh, Bolin is only Sokka in that he's the comic relief. Sokka was snarky and sarcastic, Bolin is more innocent and goofy.
As for Korra vs Toph, I'm not really seeing it. Toph had a rebellious edge to her that Korra lacks. Toph's big issue was proving she could take care of herself and taking orders from people (A side-effect of the way her parents coddled her). Korra isn't really rebellious, yes she ran away from home, but she did so with the approval of Katara and her parents. When she had trouble with the law, it was because she honestly didn't realize that it WASN'T her job to beat up scumbags in the street.
Yes she struggled a bit against Tenzin, but that was because of frustration more than rebellion. She never resented Tenzin for giving her orders, she resented that she wasn't able to airbend.

In some ways, Korra is the OPPOSITE of Toph. Korra is very insecure, she's insecure about her duty as the avatar, she's insecure about her ability to learn airbending, she's insecure about her ability to fight Amon. She's a naturally talented bender, so anytime something DOSN'T come easy to her she gets upset.

Heck, look at the shipping episode. When Mako says he likes her, Korra dosn't think "Oh, he likes two girls", she thinks "When you're with Asami, you're thinking about me". Korra is a mixture of overconfidence and insecurity, she's so certain about herself that when she fails it frustrates and scares her.

Toph on the other hand was all about confidence, though in her case it was less that she believed she was the center of the universe (she was very good, and she had a good appreciation for her own skills, but she didn't have Korra's egocentrism), and more that she didn't look to other people for validation. Toph didn't care what other people thought about her, and she hated being asked to conform to other people's standards.

Mako is pretty much the arch typical Quiet One. But he's shown enough genuine emotion to indicate that he's not a brooder, he's just a guy who dosn't talk very much.

I'm curious how Toph would react in Korra's position. A lot of their differences are simply the results of circumstance: Toph was already skilled and was brought on as a teacher, whereas Korra is unskilled beyond her base level and is a pupil with huge expectations. I do see some differences between them. I think if Toph were expected to learn airbending for some reason and failing, she would react with pure anger, not with the combo of frustration and depression that Korra had. But I do think that Toph might react to heavy expectations by lashing out similar to Korra.

[John Cribati]

I have found the perfect analogy for why Amon's campaign is wrong.


Imagine if there was a group that decided that electronic technology gave first-world people too big of an advantage, and went around rendering people incapable of using anything electronic ever again.

It's kind of hard to understand spiritual connections to things when one has never experienced them for themselves, or judge how traumatic losing them would be. But it seems like the sudden, irrevocable loss of every form of instantaneous communication (apart from face-to-face) might be something of an analogue for losing a deep connection to an element, especially for someone who's used to receiving texts and updates from their social network feeds constantly.

Now, sure, the vast majority of people who ever lived survived perfectly fine without electronic gadgets. But would that really matter, when the individual on whom that was inflicted would inevitably feel cut off from something with such vast, overarching effects on their entire way of life?

[Ozfer]

After watching episodes 1-4-


I have to say, Amon letting Korra go struck me as fake and cliche. But then after watching a couple reviews, one analogy stuck in my head- "Amon is lining up the chess pieces. If he could take the Queen (Korra), why didn't he? His plan better be really good or this will just be stupid."

After thinking about it a while, I came up with this opinion on what Amon's plan is.

In chess, sometimes you don't want to take an enemy piece, because it will block the king (Amon's goal) from escape. I believe he will trick Korra into doing something that will 'prove', benders are a negative influence on society.

Also, I have a hunch he is trying to figure out how to activate the Avatar state so that he can kill the Avatar for good.

I'm probably totally off, but whatever XD!

[Zom B]

I have found the perfect analogy for why Amon's campaign is wrong.

That analogy doesn't quite work here, though. People railing against technology when they could be trying to understand it or even embracing it is different. You can't stop protesting and decide to become a bender, while you can accept the idea of electronics and start using them. If you're a non-bender, you have people all around you, mostly in charge of you, or bullying people (the Triad), that have magical power that you can never have. If you have a problem with the government or the local criminals, then it's either tough luck or do something about it. Amon and his crew are doing all they can to be on equal footing as the benders, and seem to be doing a pretty awesome job of it. As much as he is supposed to be the villain of the story, I have to agree with his reasoning. I don't know if it's a ploy to not seem like the bad guy, but his people haven't really done much in the way of violence against benders; it's always been the benders to draw first blood.





Also, I have a hunch he is trying to figure out how to activate the Avatar state so that he can kill the Avatar for good.


That's what I've been thinking, too.

[BRC]

hrmm, concerning that

The Avatar State is activated by Anger, not Fear or Dispair. Which makes sense, if an Avatar is in a truly hopeless situation, you don't want them to enter the Avatar state and die.
I agree that breaking the Avatar cycle is probably part of his plan, but Amon seems too smart to assume he can take on an Avatar-State Korra.
That OR his plan is trigger the Avatar State, then use the ensuing collateral damage to win support for his cause.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I have found the perfect analogy for why Amon's campaign is wrong.

Nope.

There really just isn't an analogy in our world for innate magical powers, there simply isn't. Any tool or knowledge we have can be shared, and there is no innate capability that grant such an extreme gap.

How to deal with this fundamental inequality is the question and its not a problem that is strictly resolvable... so Amon seeing a knot that cannot be untangled has elected to cut it rather then live with it.

[Silverraptor]

Dammit, why are you giving in to domestic terrorists?


I don't think they'll be giving into domestic terrorists. All we got from the preview was the terrorist making a threat, and now there needs to be an appropriate response.

[Reverent-One]

No, this is why Amon is wrong.


Just because some people have something you want and you can't have it, doesn't mean you the right to take it away from everyone, even if some of them do happen to misuse it.

What's that? We're not supposed to quote ourselves? Oops.

[Zom B]

But there comes a breaking point where too many of them are abusing their power and you feel the need to take action. Amon didn't just wake up one day and say, "You know, Tenzin and the other council members are all swell guys, but there's some hooligan benders that are harassing local shopkeepers. Welp, better put on a mask and master a new or forgotten form of chi control so I can go on a crusade against all of them."

No, something had to drive him to do it. Whether he saw the government's inaction toward the bending criminals as some sort of bender alliance that transcends the law, or felt that having that power encouraged what might otherwise be a decent person to flaunt that power, he was driven to the point of organizing enough people who had had similar experiences that they were willing to put in years of training to learn how to combat it. You don't have an entire community of people that devoted without there being a huge problem that is going unaddressed.

Take Tenzin, for instance. Definitely does not flaunt his bending. He has spent years, since his birth and through all of his years of maturity learning how to be responsible with his power. Now take Korra. She's largely self-taught, young, and impulsive. Which one of these two are a better representative of the bending community? The first time that Korra met an Equalist, she used her bending to silence him, which is a clear demonstration of the exact thing that the Equalists are trying to point out: You don't have to be wildly abusing your power to make the statement that you are better than those without it. How many people before Korra came along have used their bending to get their way, even if they are normally good people?

[shadow_archmagi]

Personally, I was really hopping that Amon was going to be the son of Cabbages Guy, the only character in the series who could bear a legitimate grudge against the Avatar and his cohorts.

[Reverent-One]

The moment he took it to the point where all benders must be removed is when he went off the deep end. He's generalizing everyone with a specific genetic/spiritual/whatever characteristic, and such generalizations are virtually always wrong. He didn't say that any bender that abused their power would have their bending removed, but all, regardless of what they did. Generally, punishing people for things they didn't do isn't something anyone has the right to do.

And as for Korra wanting to beat up the guy, that's what generally happens when you stand on street corners saying crap about people, they get angry and want to beat you up. See what happens when some guy calls Buzz Aldrin a coward and a liar. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOo6aHSY8hU)


Personally, I was really hopping that Amon was going to be the son of Cabbages Guy, the only character in the series who could bear a legitimate grudge against the Avatar and his cohorts.

This idea does amuse me far more than it should.

[kpenguin]

While I disagree with Amon, I don't think the goal of removing every bender's bending is an absolutely insane one on philosophical grounds, though I feel like it is on practical grounds... at least for now (Amon might terrorize Republic City, but there's a bigger world out there... then again, we don't know if the Equalist movement has reached the hearts of non-benders worldwide...)

I think the key thing to remember about the Equalists is their name. Equalist. For Amon and his troupe, bending is living breathing proof that not all man is created equal. As we've gone over in previous discussion, all other things being the same, a bender has more opportunities than a non-bender. A bender has power non-benders do not have and cannot have whereas any non-bending avenues to power a non-bender has a bender has access to as well. Benders are gifted inherently with a privilege that non-benders are not and removing the bending of only a select few bad apples does not change the systemic inequality that this privilege implies.

(Let's avoid comparing this to real life examples for now. That strays a little too close to real life politics and I'd hate to break out the red text)

So, from the perspective of a group that is dedicated to making things equal between benders and not benders, how can this situation be rectified? In order for non-benders and benders to be equal, either non-benders must be granted the privilege benders have (which doesn't seem possible) or benders must have their privilege removed (which is possible and what Amon has in motion)

Of course, this infringes on the individual rights and liberties of the benders. Is it right for them to be neutered for everyone to have a more fair playing ground? I think that comes down to a freedom versus equality debate. In order to further equality, at least for now, you need to restrict bending at the very least and remove bending at the very most. Such restrictions are, by the nature of restrictions, detrimental to individual freedom, but serve the cause of equality. Which should we value more here?

Now, if an avenue for giving all non-benders bending were open, would Amon and the Equalists take it? I'm not sure. It would certainly be a better solution for everyone, but you've got emotions in the mix...

[planswalker]

And I answered your question. The answer just didn't happen to appeal to you.

no, you picked a question tangental to mine, answered that, I questioned it along my tangent, you ignored it, re-answered your other question, and have dictated to me that I am immature and just not accepting your answer.


Once again, my analogy addressed how your element gets chosen, not why you get locked into one element

believe it or not, I am not stupid. I am aware that this is what your analogy answered. That's why I bothered with a follow-up question you are refusing to answer.


just like the "closest elemental concentration" theory and the "elemental alignment" theory and the others take as a given that you can only bend one.

and I ask them to justify why the "only one element" if I can't see how their theory would lend itself to that. I'm relatively new to this thread and yours was the first I saw.

unless you get more hostile on me, I don't actually hate your theory. I'm just asking you for a clarification on a related point to see your answer. One that I'm starting to feel you're choosing to re-define as just your original answer redux instead of answering me.

[Anarion]

While I disagree with Amon, I don't think the goal of removing every bender's bending is an absolutely insane one on philosophical grounds, though I feel like it is on practical grounds... at least for now (Amon might terrorize Republic City, but there's a bigger world out there... then again, we don't know if the Equalist movement has reached the hearts of non-benders worldwide...)

I think the key thing to remember about the Equalists is their name. Equalist. For Amon and his troupe, bending is living breathing proof that not all man is created equal. As we've gone over in previous discussion, all other things being the same, a bender has more opportunities than a non-bender. A bender has power non-benders do not have and cannot have whereas any non-bending avenues to power a non-bender has a bender has access to as well. Benders are gifted inherently with a privilege that non-benders are not and removing the bending of only a select few bad apples does not change the systemic inequality that this privilege implies.

(Let's avoid comparing this to real life examples for now. That strays a little too close to real life politics and I'd hate to break out the red text)

So, from the perspective of a group that is dedicated to making things equal between benders and not benders, how can this situation be rectified? In order for non-benders and benders to be equal, either non-benders must be granted the privilege benders have (which doesn't seem possible) or benders must have their privilege removed (which is possible and what Amon has in motion)

Of course, this infringes on the individual rights and liberties of the benders. Is it right for them to be neutered for everyone to have a more fair playing ground? I think that comes down to a freedom versus equality debate. In order to further equality, at least for now, you need to restrict bending at the very least and remove bending at the very most. Such restrictions are, by the nature of restrictions, detrimental to individual freedom, but serve the cause of equality. Which should we value more here?

Now, if an avenue for giving all non-benders bending were open, would Amon and the Equalists take it? I'm not sure. It would certainly be a better solution for everyone, but you've got emotions in the mix...

This argument is a bit off from an economic standpoint. Imagine that all benders were put to work providing power, construction, and maintenance work full time. They then provide their services to non-benders free of charge. Everyone would then benefit equally from the bending talent and would be at a higher level of material comfort than if you removed all bending from the world.

Now, I admit I have no idea how to get from a society where benders run everything to one where bending becomes a duty to provide for all of society, but I'm confident that removing all bending is the wrong way to go.

There's also a problem in defining equality, which isn't all that easy. John Locke, for example, thought that it was fair to reward people unequally according to their labor, so long as each individual left the rest of humanity in equal or better condition as they would have been had the individual not been present. Equality can't mean being born with the exact same opportunity, since that implies identical wealth and education, which Amon clearly doesn't care about.

Another problem is that, in the Avatar world, I'm not sure that you can make a meaningful distinction between someone with bending ability and someone with the wealth and drive to obtain advanced martial arts training (look at how effective Mai was, not to mention all the chi-blockers). Amon's movement won't actually make people equal, it will just eliminate the vast majority of people that could stand up to his trained chi-blockers. And I suspect he's smart enough to know that, whatever rhetoric he may espouse.

[Zeful]

Now take Korra. She's largely self-taught, young, and impulsive.

Yeah because a minimum of 6 years in training by a large multinational organization with arguably the premier benders of the world is "largely self-taught".

[Zevox]

While I disagree with Amon, I don't think the goal of removing every bender's bending is an absolutely insane one on philosophical grounds, though I feel like it is on practical grounds... at least for now (Amon might terrorize Republic City, but there's a bigger world out there... then again, we don't know if the Equalist movement has reached the hearts of non-benders worldwide...)

I think the key thing to remember about the Equalists is their name. Equalist. For Amon and his troupe, bending is living breathing proof that not all man is created equal. As we've gone over in previous discussion, all other things being the same, a bender has more opportunities than a non-bender. A bender has power non-benders do not have and cannot have whereas any non-bending avenues to power a non-bender has a bender has access to as well. Benders are gifted inherently with a privilege that non-benders are not and removing the bending of only a select few bad apples does not change the systemic inequality that this privilege implies.

(Let's avoid comparing this to real life examples for now. That strays a little too close to real life politics and I'd hate to break out the red text)

So, from the perspective of a group that is dedicated to making things equal between benders and not benders, how can this situation be rectified? In order for non-benders and benders to be equal, either non-benders must be granted the privilege benders have (which doesn't seem possible) or benders must have their privilege removed (which is possible and what Amon has in motion)

Of course, this infringes on the individual rights and liberties of the benders. Is it right for them to be neutered for everyone to have a more fair playing ground? I think that comes down to a freedom versus equality debate. In order to further equality, at least for now, you need to restrict bending at the very least and remove bending at the very most. Such restrictions are, by the nature of restrictions, detrimental to individual freedom, but serve the cause of equality. Which should we value more here?

Now, if an avenue for giving all non-benders bending were open, would Amon and the Equalists take it? I'm not sure. It would certainly be a better solution for everyone, but you've got emotions in the mix...
But that's not the argument they have made. So far Amon and his group have complained about (to all appearances non-existant) bender oppression of non-benders, not made any sort of argument that the mere existence of bending creates inherent inequality.

Plus while the latter would be true as far as it goes, I don't think it goes very far. People are born unequal in a lot of ways that are beyond their control, such as the family they're born into (are they wealthy or poor? Are they the child of a celebrity or an infamous criminal?) or their own physical and mental faculties (are they completely healthy or do they have birth defects? Are they a genius or mentally disabled?). Bending is just a particularly visible one. If they wanted to make that argument they'd have a lot of other issues to address that can't be solved by whatever power Amon claims to have.

Zevox

[Anarion]

Yeah because a minimum of 6 years in training by a large multinational organization with arguably the premier benders of the world is "largely self-taught".

It is when she could already bend 3 elements before the official training started and appears to have ignored everything they tried to teach her beyond "point flames here for maximum damage." :smalltongue:


But that's not the argument they have made. So far Amon and his group have complained about (to all appearances non-existant) bender oppression of non-benders, not made any sort of argument that the mere existence of bending creates inherent inequality.

Plus while the latter would be true as far as it goes, I don't think it goes very far. People are born unequal in a lot of ways that are beyond their control, such as the family they're born into (are they wealthy or poor? Are they the child of a celebrity or an infamous criminal?) or their own physical and mental faculties (are they completely healthy or do they have birth defects? Are they a genius or mentally disabled?). Bending is just a particularly visible one. If they wanted to make that argument they'd have a lot of other issues to address that can't be solved by whatever power Amon claims to have.

Zevox

This is better stated than my third point on the previous page and I agree with it.

[Fjolnir]

Question- How do people get entertained by listening to sport events (not just pro bending, like footballs)? You can't see the action and the report are too vague.
I am no stranger to it since I heard the stories about the radio from my grandparents and parents since there was no TV in Burma until 1980s.

Honestly, it really is not that big of an issue when it comes down to it as long as the announcing team is good. I actually prefer to listen to baseball games because the pace is well suited for it...

[PairO'Dice Lost]

no, you picked a question tangental to mine, answered that, I questioned it along my tangent, you ignored it, re-answered your other question, and have dictated to me that I am immature and just not accepting your answer.

believe it or not, I am not stupid. I am aware that this is what your analogy answered. That's why I bothered with a follow-up question you are refusing to answer.

and I ask them to justify why the "only one element" if I can't see how their theory would lend itself to that. I'm relatively new to this thread and yours was the first I saw.

unless you get more hostile on me, I don't actually hate your theory. I'm just asking you for a clarification on a related point to see your answer. One that I'm starting to feel you're choosing to re-define as just your original answer redux instead of answering me.

I'm not trying to be hostile here, and it's not exactly "my" theory, just an analogy to explain why I favor one theory over the others. That's why I've been saying I'm not trying to explain why you only get one element.

See absol's elemental alignment theory, for instance (which I also think is a plausible one). There's no explanation of why everyone's born aligned to one element, it's just taken as a presupposition because we know that's how bending works. The bending-as-genetics theorists don't offer some sort of Mendelian approach ("If a firebender marries a waterbender and they have a child, there is a 1/4 chance of a nonbender, a 1/4 chance of a firebender, a 1/4 chance of a waterbender, and a 1/4 chance of a fire- and water-bender...") because, again, we know it just doesn't work that way.


This argument is a bit off from an economic standpoint. Imagine that all benders were put to work providing power, construction, and maintenance work full time. They then provide their services to non-benders free of charge. Everyone would then benefit equally from the bending talent and would be at a higher level of material comfort than if you removed all bending from the world.

Now, I admit I have no idea how to get from a society where benders run everything to one where bending becomes a duty to provide for all of society, but I'm confident that removing all bending is the wrong way to go.

See the Old Republic Jedi from Star Wars, or the Aes Sedai from the Wheel of Time, among other similar orders. Each organization is self-run, each teaches that one's gifts are to be used for the good of all society, each focuses on positive and nonviolent uses of their powers (either by only following the Light Side or by taking a magically-binding oath to not harm people with the Power except in self-defense), each eschews material gains (the organizations both have plenty of holocrons/ter'angreal/etc., but individual Jedi/Aes Sedai have few possessions), and both try to rely on their prestige and reputation to help solve disputes rather than relying on the Force/the Power primarily.

In fact, both are very similar to the Air Nomads in their outlook and lifestyle, so we know at least some benders already believe in asceticism and service rather than profit. Assuming that's something other benders will go for that isn't solely an airbender trait, I could easily see changing things around to make benders social servants rather than laborers. All the benders in Republic City that we've seen have used bending to make a living, whether honest (lightningbenders, pro benders) or dishonest (the Triads), so if you set things up to give all benders a place to live, utilities and amenities, food and drink, and other basic necessities in exchange for working pro bono for the public, I think most of the honest ones would take the deal and the criminals would obviously be prosecuted after being brought in by the good guy benders. Who wouldn't want a guaranteed wage, plenty of prestige, interesting and varied jobs, and free training?


There's also a problem in defining equality, which isn't all that easy. John Locke, for example, thought that it was fair to reward people unequally according to their labor, so long as each individual left the rest of humanity in equal or better condition as they would have been had the individual not been present. Equality can't mean being born with the exact same opportunity, since that implies identical wealth and education, which Amon clearly doesn't care about.

Another problem is that, in the Avatar world, I'm not sure that you can make a meaningful distinction between someone with bending ability and someone with the wealth and drive to obtain advanced martial arts training (look at how effective Mai was, not to mention all the chi-blockers). Amon's movement won't actually make people equal, it will just eliminate the vast majority of people that could stand up to his trained chi-blockers. And I suspect he's smart enough to know that, whatever rhetoric he may espouse.

Having the talent and dedication necessary for advanced martial arts isn't exactly as good as having bending, because you can use bending for utility purposes while martial arts are only good for combat, though of course the benefits of the athletics training, improved focus, spiritual aspects, and such would be shared between the two. You're right about the fact that the wealthy and more educated have a big advantage here, though, in that they can buy the better training and have more of a voice in government, which of course once again brings up the issue that benders have a big advantage when it comes to labor and unsophisticated jobs, but they don't noticeably outperform nonbenders when it comes to political positions or jobs requiring sophisticated training.

From the looks of it, nonbenders who have the wherewithal to go great things thanks to their ingenuity and dedication (Mr. Sato, Ty Lee, Jet, the Mechanist, etc.) are the kind of people with the right traits to become bending masters if they'd possessed bending; conversely, many of the bending mooks (Fire Nation soldiers, the Triads) seem like they're unimaginative, untalented people leaning on their bending to accomplish things who'd kind of be lost without it. Likewise, the Equalists complain that benders oppress nonbenders, but the kind of people who would join the Triads are likely the same kind of people who would oppress people even if they didn't have bending, and honest politicians and teachers like Tenzin would likely use their gifts for the good of society even if they didn't have bending.

So really, being born a bender is like any other advantage: if you inherit lots of money, you can invest it or become a philanthropist or otherwise use it well, or you can fritter it away on useless things; if you have a particular gift for a particular academic subject, you can either apply yourself and do well in school, possibly making great contributions in your field, or you can flaunt it and brag about it to fellow students and fail out because you don't put in any effort. Would it be awesome to be born a bender? Sure, if I were in the avatarverse I'd love to have bending of some sort. But then, it would be awesome to have Mr. Sato's money and fame, or the Mechanist's skill with technology, or Ty Lee's or Master Piandao's martial skill, or heck, even Iroh's wisdom and tea-making expertise.

As Zevox pointed out, it seems that the Equalists would have a much better case if they pointed out that the lower classes are generally underpaid, taken advantage of, less upwardly-mobile, undereducated, and otherwise disadvantaged (as I would assume they are given real-world parallels) and tried to initiate social change on those bases, rather than focusing on benders particularly...but then, they didn't exactly choose the person who would galvanize them and his particular anti-bending attitudes.

[kpenguin]

This argument is a bit off from an economic standpoint. Imagine that all benders were put to work providing power, construction, and maintenance work full time. They then provide their services to non-benders free of charge. Everyone would then benefit equally from the bending talent and would be at a higher level of material comfort than if you removed all bending from the world.

Now, I admit I have no idea how to get from a society where benders run everything to one where bending becomes a duty to provide for all of society, but I'm confident that removing all bending is the wrong way to go.

Yeah, I concur. I don't actually agree with Amon, but I don't think his movement is invalid. The Avatar-verse is better off with bending, in my opinion.


There's also a problem in defining equality, which isn't all that easy. John Locke, for example, thought that it was fair to reward people unequally according to their labor, so long as each individual left the rest of humanity in equal or better condition as they would have been had the individual not been present. Equality can't mean being born with the exact same opportunity, since that implies identical wealth and education, which Amon clearly doesn't care about.

Mmmm. That's a perfectly rational and fair philosophy from mister Locke. And one that I might agree with. Man, it is hard advocating for Amon in the face of Anarion.

I don't think the fact that there other forms of inequality invalidates that bending constitutes a form of inequality. I think if the Avatarverse had somehow grown without bending, there'd likely be movements similar to those on our own world about inequality...

The fact that the Equalists, and their supporters, are focused on bending means that there's something special about bending as opposed to other forms of inequality...


Another problem is that, in the Avatar world, I'm not sure that you can make a meaningful distinction between someone with bending ability and someone with the wealth and drive to obtain advanced martial arts training (look at how effective Mai was, not to mention all the chi-blockers). Amon's movement won't actually make people equal, it will just eliminate the vast majority of people that could stand up to his trained chi-blockers. And I suspect he's smart enough to know that, whatever rhetoric he may espouse.

...right, well, I just imagined Mai in a Batsuit. It was amazing.

There's certainly ways for a non-bender to catch up with a bender, but they're not available to the general public. I think that the fact that if you're wealthy and go through rigorous training to become a badass normal threat to a bender is poor solace for the general non-bending population, particularly the Equalist base, when it seems like any Triad bending shmuck can walk down the street running a racket. I really doubt that the wealthy elite have very many Equalists among them, since at that level bending doesn't seem to much matter. But on the street level? Yup.

Mmmmm. Reflecting on it, I think that might be why there's a popular angry movement against benders in Republic City than one against, say, the wealthy elite. I imagine the trespasses of those who abuse their bending are far more prevalent and visible than those who abuse their wealth. Maybe that's what makes bending special compared to other forms of inequality, at least in the eyes of the Equalists.


But that's not the argument they have made. So far Amon and his group have complained about (to all appearances non-existant) bender oppression of non-benders, not made any sort of argument that the mere existence of bending creates inherent inequality.

Mmmmm. this is true. I'm probably reading more into their movement than is actually there.

However, I disagree that there has been no bender oppression of non-benders. Certainly the Triads (groups of bending criminal gangs) have been oppressing neighborhoods likely composed of largely non-benders, so there we have a specific instance of benders unjustly lording power over non-benders.

Of course, organized crime would exist with or without bending, but the specific situation with the Triads is directly related to bending.The Triads likely target non-bending businesses and community because they're easier to bully and they're able to do that bullying because they have bending. The Triads don't target non-benders because "ooooh, those subhuman non-benders have what's coming for them", but they do target them because they lack the bending, and thus power, to defend themselves.

Now, is there codified institutional oppression of non-benders by the city itself? Probably not. Is there some sort of bender conspiracy to keep non-benders in their place? Korra at least hasn't heard of it.

But, at least in the form of the Triads, we do have a group of benders using bending to oppress non-benders and the conflict has everything to do with bending because oppression has everything to do with power or lack of it. And bending is power, especially at the level of street crime.


Plus while the latter would be true as far as it goes, I don't think it goes very far. People are born unequal in a lot of ways that are beyond their control, such as the family they're born into (are they wealthy or poor? Are they the child of a celebrity or an infamous criminal?) or their own physical and mental faculties (are they completely healthy or do they have birth defects? Are they a genius or mentally disabled?). Bending is just a particularly visible one. If they wanted to make that argument they'd have a lot of other issues to address that can't be solved by whatever power Amon claims to have.

Zevox

I agree. There are lots of inequalities in the world of Avatar. Something about bending makes it special... and its visibility is probably a component. (see what I said to Anarion)

And I should probably stop advocating for villains I don't really agree with anyway. I'm finding it harder to get good rational arguments for them. I do think that the Equalists are, at least, understandable. As is general anti-bender sentiment. Understandability is not, of course, equal to being right or fair.

[Anarion]

Part of the issue with the bender vs. non-bender thing is that Avatar is still a show for younger audiences. Thus, the odds of anyone inventing a gun are low. But guns would invalidate the vast majority of bending oppression. If benders aren't fast enough to stop a chi-blocker or a Yu-Yan archer, they're not fast enough to stop a bullet either.

Of course, then we'd just have mafia with guns instead. But that's because the existence of a mafia isn't actually related to having magic powers or not.

[Zevox]

However, I disagree that there has been no bender oppression of non-benders. Certainly the Triads (groups of bending criminal gangs) have been oppressing neighborhoods likely composed of largely non-benders, so there we have a specific instance of benders unjustly lording power over non-benders.

Of course, organized crime would exist with or without bending, but the specific situation with the Triads is directly related to bending.The Triads likely target non-bending businesses and community because they're easier to bully and they're able to do that bullying because they have bending. The Triads don't target non-benders because "ooooh, those subhuman non-benders have what's coming for them", but they do target them because they lack the bending, and thus power, to defend themselves.
The part where we disagree is where you call that "oppression." Criminals taking advantage of those that can't defend against them is not, in any sense of the word I'm familiar with, oppression - it's simply criminals being criminals. It's a problem to be sure, but not the one Amon and the Equalists have claimed. Oppression would be something more widespread and socially or legally accepted than that, such as, well:


Now, is there codified institutional oppression of non-benders by the city itself? Probably not. Is there some sort of bender conspiracy to keep non-benders in their place? Korra at least hasn't heard of it.
this sort of thing. That is the kind of thing that could actually rightly be called oppression, not simply some criminals who happen to be benders targeting non-benders because they make easier targets.

Zevox

[Xondoure]

Well, it's oppression, but it's not government sanctioned which is the point in such a scenario.

[kpenguin]

@ Anarion
I concur. There's a reason a certain handgun was called "The Great Equalizer"

Of course, it can't just be the invention of guns. It'd also have to be the mass manufacturing and availability to the general public of guns. If guns were something only to be used by the elite, then you wouldn't have a very large shift between bender and non-bender.


The part where we disagree is where you call that "oppression." Criminals taking advantage of those that can't defend against them is not, in any sense of the word I'm familiar with, oppression - it's simply criminals being criminals. It's a problem to be sure, but not the one Amon and the Equalists have claimed. Oppression would be something more widespread and socially or legally accepted than that, such as, well:

this sort of thing. That is the kind of thing that could actually rightly be called oppression, not simply some criminals who happen to be benders targeting non-benders because they make easier targets.

Zevox

Mmmmmmmm.

My experience with the word oppression includes it being used to refer to how organized crime, gangs and syndicates, use their elicit power to unjustly pressure and bully a community, whether as small as neighborhood or as large as, say, Naples. Or Gotham City. Or 1920's Chicago

It can also refer to individuals who do the same to other individuals. An abusive controlling husband oppressing his wife, for instance. Just generally, oppression the word for me refers to an actor abusing their power to put unjustly pressure and control others. Everything else is a matter of scale.

Of course, Amon and the Equalists have to be referring to a problem that's bigger than just a neighborhood to draw the support they do. I suspect that the Triads are/were a rather rampant threat in Republic City. The fact that a Triple Threat Triad trio (say that three times fast) was able to shake down a store and attempt to beat a teenage girl into hospitalization in broad daylight and with police airships hovering close by, makes me think that they're a rather common, unchecked problem.

If the status quo is that the Triads terrorize the populace into paying their rackets with their bending, a status quo to be interrupted by the Equalists, then we have a system in place where benders oppress nonbenders, in my opinion.

It is, of course, not a government-sponsored system of oppression at all. And of course, even without bending you'd have organized crime oppressing communities (though possibly with less success if they lack guns and elemental kung fu). But its certainly enough to give Amon the support he needs and his arguments legitimacy in the hearts and minds of his growing cadre of followers.

[Brother Oni]

Gah, forum ate my post. :smallsigh:


Of course, organized crime would exist with or without bending, but the specific situation with the Triads is directly related to bending.The Triads likely target non-bending businesses and community because they're easier to bully and they're able to do that bullying because they have bending. The Triads don't target non-benders because "ooooh, those subhuman non-benders have what's coming for them", but they do target them because they lack the bending, and thus power, to defend themselves.

I think you're very right in that the triads would exist regardless of bending, but an interesting point to prove specific oppression of non benders by benders would to look at the percentage of benders to non benders in a triad group.
Given the relative scarcity of benders in the population, it would be a very rare (or small) group that would be solely composed of benders.

Now if I remember correctly, the Triple Thread Triads are so called because they're the only group to use benders of all three types - all the other groups just use one. This would indicate that they would have the highest percentage of benders to non-benders, but when Amon raided their headquarters, they only captured 4 or 5 benders, one of which was a last minute recruit for the night (Bolin).

This speaks to me of benders still being relatively rare even in supposed bending crime groups, so outside of their leadership and special intimidation groups that run their extortion/protection rackets, most of their standard activities are still done by non-benders (smuggling, trafficking, prostitution rings, etc).

While they could probably just send a couple of big lads in a car to colelct money from the shop keepers, they use benders specifically to intimidate and reinforce the futility of resistance.

So rather than specific non-bender oppression, I think the triads are basically a crime group that uses bending to get what they want, rather than a bending crime group.

As an aside, given the most powerful crime group has effectively had its leadership stripped of all power, I'm surprised that there isn't a major turf war going on.

[Zevox]

Mmmmmmmm.

My experience with the word oppression includes it being used to refer to how organized crime, gangs and syndicates, use their elicit power to unjustly pressure and bully a community, whether as small as neighborhood or as large as, say, Naples. Or Gotham City. Or 1920's Chicago

It can also refer to individuals who do the same to other individuals. An abusive controlling husband oppressing his wife, for instance. Just generally, oppression the word for me refers to an actor abusing their power to put unjustly pressure and control others. Everything else is a matter of scale.
That is not any use of the term I've ever heard. Especially that last - the proper term there would be one you yourself used to describe it: abuse, not oppression. As I said, oppression in every sense I've ever heard needs to be something either socially or legally considered acceptable - otherwise it's just someone, person or group, committing a crime, which is just a matter to be solved by proper policing, not a social or legal problem, which is what oppression is.

Zevox

[kpenguin]

That is not any use of the term I've ever heard. Especially that last - the proper term there would be one you yourself used to describe it: abuse, not oppression. As I said, oppression in every sense I've ever heard needs to be something either socially or legally considered acceptable - otherwise it's just someone, person or group, committing a crime, which is just a matter to be solved by proper policing, not a social or legal problem, which is what oppression is.

Zevox

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I think at the point we pull out dictionaries at each other is the point where debate has probably run out of usefulness.

[Brother Oni]

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I think at the point we pull out dictionaries at each other is the point where debate has probably run out of usefulness.

Sounds like a librarians' secret duelling ritual - dawn with dictionaries at 10 paces. :smalltongue:

[dehro]

That said, I'm contemplating Amon's reasons for targeting Pro-Bending. From a plot perspective it lets them bring the two arcs together, but what about from an in-universe perspective, why Pro-Bending?


because half the media existing in universe is pointed at it and it gives him the maximum of visibility for the minimum effort upgrading him from local moron to man of the hour.

[Brother Oni]

Question- How do people get entertained by listening to sport events (not just pro bending, like footballs)? You can't see the action and the report are too vague.
I am no stranger to it since I heard the stories about the radio from my grandparents and parents since there was no TV in Burma until 1980s.

Further to Fjolnir's comments, when the only options for spectating the match live are being there or the radio, it's not much of a choice.

In most cases, people tend to listen to the radio to get it live then read the more detailed newspaper story the day after. I suspect people today have been spoiled with the advent of television - with a good commentator, you can get a very good idea of what's going on with a little practice at listening.

I think pro-bending is a little too hectic for decent commentating, especially compared to other full contact sports that require near blow by blow detail (boxing for example), but you make do with what you have.

[Clertar]

Regarding the argument kpenguin made concerning benders and equality:

The big problem I see in the "oppression and inbalance" thing is that bending is a talent that shows up transversally. Benders can produce non-bender offspring, and non-benders can have children who can bend elements. That means that anti-bending cannot really become a deep current in the society. Basically because it's pretty much inevitable that a bender will spring somewhere in anybody's lineage. A couple of anti-benders can give birth to a bender just like that, it's not like being rich, or being nobility: just anyone can end up with a bender sibling, or cousin, or in-law relative. And, barring air nomads, any bender can have non-bender offspring, too. A decent portion of the non-bender population will inevitably always have either benders as parents or as children, and that will happen in an uncontrollable way.

A secondary thing that I would like to point out is that most benders need to undergo serious training in order to become successful in their art. It's a magical/spiritual parallel to real-world martial arts: most of us are born with the capacity to punch, bend joints, poke eyes, break tracheas... but we're very unefficient at it if we don't spend some years studying traditional wushu, for example.
An untrained bender is pretty much like Katara at the beginning of the previous series. Sure, they can bend, but not well enough that it is a huge advantage against a non-bender from a world where superhuman athletic prowess is not precisely uncommon (example: Suki against firebender troops). Therefore, a bender must cultivate the innate talent in order to be able to actually take advantage of it in a significant way. The essential difference between Mako and a non-bender from Republic City is that he is a firebender, sure, but ultimately it's the years of effort spent training his bending that make the difference. An untrained firebender wouldn't fare much differently than a non-bender if they were to face Mako (and probably much worse than trained non-benders like the equalist troopers).

[Randomguy]

This argument is a bit off from an economic standpoint. Imagine that all benders were put to work providing power, construction, and maintenance work full time. They then provide their services to non-benders free of charge. Everyone would then benefit equally from the bending talent and would be at a higher level of material comfort than if you removed all bending from the world.

Now, I admit I have no idea how to get from a society where benders run everything to one where bending becomes a duty to provide for all of society, but I'm confident that removing all bending is the wrong way to go.


Except don't jobs that involve power, construction and maintenance pay the least in our modern society? Compare how much working in an assembly line pays to how much actually designing the cars that are being made. Or how much construction workers earn compared to how much real estate agents make. Or how much a chef earns compared to how much a dish-washer earns.

And don't claim that, for example "An earthbender architect makes more then a nonbender architect because they can make the house/building on their own". Sure, they could, but it would be easier (and more efficient) if the architect designed the house and a team of earthbenders trained for building houses actually built the house. That's called comparative advantage: The earthbending architect has better ways to make money then to help with construction, in the same way a real architect doesn't go put on a hard hat and join a construction team after he finishes his designs.

In general, while it's true that having bending makes it easier for you to get a job, it doesn't make it easier for you to get a good job.


EDIT: I should probably have hit refresh before posting. Oops.

[Misery Esquire]

Except don't jobs that involve power, construction and maintenance pay the least in our modern society?

Power is a bad example of a "low paying job", as they're usually goverment-run middle-class-wage jobs. And maintenance is also a middle-class wage bracket, in any company that's paying you the worth of your trade.

...Construction guys, however, are pretty underwhelming in the money, unless they can count themselves millwrights, electrical technicians, surveyors, structural engineers, skyline welders, or heavy equipment operators.

...Pretty much just the guys that assist building prefab housing, and screw on drywall are the ones not making the $ in Construction. To be fair, most construction in modern and historical times has been housing, and the cheap jobs involved. Earth Benders would make pretty amazing structrual engineers if they learned Toph's Earthsense (TM)

[Brother Oni]

Except don't jobs that involve power, construction and maintenance pay the least in our modern society?

Further to Kinslayer's comments, there's a significant difference in that only a limited number of people can do their power and construction work efficiently.

Why hire a team of twenty men to put up a house when 5 Earthbenders could do the same job in less than half the time? Even if you paid them all triple what the non-benders were getting paid, you'd still get the job done cheaper and quicker.

Bending requiring considerable training to use effectively combined with the limited number of benders, all suggest that construction workers make a fair wage. The apparent rate at which Republic City sprung up, showing earthbending construction is significantly faster than our rate of construction, cements this.

[planswalker]

I'm not trying to be hostile here, and it's not exactly "my" theory, just an analogy to explain why I favor one theory over the others. That's why I've been saying I'm not trying to explain why you only get one element.

subscribing to a theory = your theory, even if you don't invent it. I do get that you haven't ever tried to defend why it's only one type of bending per person. You've repeated yourself often enough to make that abundantly clear. Abundantly clear. Abundantly clear.


See absol's elemental alignment theory, for instance (which I also think is a plausible one). There's no explanation of why everyone's born aligned to one element, it's just taken as a presupposition because we know that's how bending works.

and if I had seen absol putting his theory up, I would have asked him this follow-up question as well. I don't understand why you feel like if it's not part of what you initially stated that it is an invalid topic to talk about that you must avoid by constantly repeating yourself.


The bending-as-genetics theorists don't offer some sort of Mendelian approach ("If a firebender marries a waterbender and they have a child, there is a 1/4 chance of a nonbender, a 1/4 chance of a firebender, a 1/4 chance of a waterbender, and a 1/4 chance of a fire- and water-bender...") because, again, we know it just doesn't work that way.

your presupposition for why someone claiming bending as genetics doesn't defend this topic is assuming a lot of motivations that you only know are true for yourself.

and once again, I reiterate that if I thought I saw a "bending is genetics" theory that was actually sensible and it wasn't clear to me from the setup why bending is never multitype, I'd again ask them the same stupid question.



as a personal favor to me, could you please just answer my question, even if it's not "your" answer. Even if the answer you give isn't "part of the theory" you put the analogy up for. If you're going to respond to me with "but everyone assumes the fact", don't bother. let me do it for you:


it's just taken as a presupposition because we know that's how bending works.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah because a minimum of 6 years in training by a large multinational organization with arguably the premier benders of the world is "largely self-taught".

I think knowing Healing is evidence that Korra is certifiably beyond self-taught. Unless we want to accuse Katara of being incompetent.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

subscribing to a theory = your theory, even if you don't invent it. I do get that you haven't ever tried to defend why it's only one type of bending per person. You've repeated yourself often enough to make that abundantly clear. Abundantly clear. Abundantly clear.

and if I had seen absol putting his theory up, I would have asked him this follow-up question as well. I don't understand why you feel like if it's not part of what you initially stated that it is an invalid topic to talk about that you must avoid by constantly repeating yourself.

your presupposition for why someone claiming bending as genetics doesn't defend this topic is assuming a lot of motivations that you only know are true for yourself.

and once again, I reiterate that if I thought I saw a "bending is genetics" theory that was actually sensible and it wasn't clear to me from the setup why bending is never multitype, I'd again ask them the same stupid question.

as a personal favor to me, could you please just answer my question, even if it's not "your" answer. Even if the answer you give isn't "part of the theory" you put the analogy up for. If you're going to respond to me with "but everyone assumes the fact", don't bother. let me do it for you:

:smallsigh:

I don't know why everyone gets only one element. People do, we don't know why (apart from OOC plot reasons). Asking why these theories don't explain that is like asking why evolution doesn't explain abiogenesis--the question doesn't make sense because that's not the question the theory tries to answer. I don't know how I can say it any clearer than that.


Except don't jobs that involve power, construction and maintenance pay the least in our modern society? Compare how much working in an assembly line pays to how much actually designing the cars that are being made. Or how much construction workers earn compared to how much real estate agents make. Or how much a chef earns compared to how much a dish-washer earns.

[...]

In general, while it's true that having bending makes it easier for you to get a job, it doesn't make it easier for you to get a good job.

Note that the argument was that having benders all work for the good of society would be better for society overall and would let every individual benefit equally from bending, which isn't related to the payment rate of individual bending jobs. Individually, benders making houses or running watermills or whatever would definitely be paid less than they would be if they were running businesses of their own, but the overall effect would be an upgrade in standards of living for benders and everyone else.

Take an earthbending farmer, for example. He could use his earthbending for his own benefit and produce great yields of food, while his nonbending farmer neighbors (and competitors) would be able to work less land, would have to work harder to harvest crops, etc. If the earthbending farmer starts working for everyone, and an earthbending farm corps goes around and helps every farmer who needs it, he'll make less of a profit from his skills, both because he's not running his own farm and because he has less of a comparative advantage if everyone has earthbending at their disposal. But if every single farm is farmed with earthbending, the overall crop yield would rise and transportation would be easier, lowering food prices, so even with lower equivalent wages, he'd probably be paying less for food.

Apply that to every area of society, and even though your basic bending laborer wouldn't be getting paid much, he's still living more comfortably and is better off if he spreads his skills around. Apply some economies of scale, and you can even pay benders better than normal as Brother Oni mentioned, because they'll get things done more efficiently despite smaller numbers and so the government can afford to pay more per person.

[Misery Esquire]

~Bending Farming~


I think the easiest way for an Earthbender farmer to make money, would be to, instead of tilling, planting, watering, weeding, etc, etc, his own land, to go around to the neighbors and offer to earthbend thier entire fields in spring/fall. This way, less Earthbenders have to actually do the work of farming as a year-round occupation, freeing them up for other Earthbending works that'll be important to a growing nation.

...Like levelling mountains without TNT. :smallamused:

[Absol197]

At nick.com, there's an extended version of the clip for this episode. Apparently, the council reaches a decision really quickly...

[Fjolnir]

Something tells me that if you look at the avatarworld in like another 150 years it will look something like Coruscant or Trantor with a layer of huge earthen buildings spread out in a layer over water, though interestingly, the best addresses would be nearer to the bottom...

[Brother Oni]

Something tells me that if you look at the avatarworld in like another 150 years it will look something like Coruscant or Trantor with a layer of huge earthen buildings spread out in a layer over water, though interestingly, the best addresses would be nearer to the bottom...

Not unless they figure out intensive farming methods to feed all that population.

That said, barring any advanced city planning methods (or just plain fung sui), I can forsee Republic City turning into a massive hive city, much like those seen in 40K.

[Fjolnir]

You use firebending to replicate sunlight(should be possible) for the largescale farming that takes place just above the water layer at ground level, you don't even need windows, it's approximately as sustainable as any other methodology PLUS if you do it right, you can even maintain the aquatic ecosystem and sustain fish and seafood as well... though this would likely require more airbenders as well.

[Grey Watcher]

At nick.com, there's an extended version of the clip for this episode. Apparently, the council reaches a decision really quickly...

Yeah, that felt... out of character.I feel like both Tenzin and Tarrlok should've taken the opposite tack. Tenzin I'd expect to talk about how they cannot give into fear, especially in the kind of public relations battle Amon is clearly trying to force. Tarrlok would just see the perfect opportunity to lay a trap for whatever forces Amon sends to the Arena. Then again, the clip cuts off rather abruptly after the two of them saying no, so I'm guessing there's a little more to their reasoning than we're being allowed to see just yet.

[Silverraptor]

The only thing I wasnt to say on the case of Amon, is show him how boring our world is without bending. Maybe that'll shock him into forgetting his horrific scheme.:smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

You use firebending to replicate sunlight(should be possible) for the largescale farming that takes place just above the water layer at ground level, you don't even need windows, it's approximately as sustainable as any other methodology PLUS if you do it right, you can even maintain the aquatic ecosystem and sustain fish and seafood as well...
I don't think even the Avatar could create and sustain a fusion reaction with firebending.

[Fjolnir]

I don't think even the Avatar could create and sustain a fusion reaction with firebending.

I was talking a fire producing light of a specific wavelength; similar to a grow light, not a sustained fusion reaction...

[Hiro Protagonest]

The only thing I wasnt to say on the case of Amon, is show him how boring our world is without bending. Maybe that'll shock him into forgetting his horrific scheme.:smalltongue:

No, it won't. But it'd be part of my plan to get him to turn back. As well as asking him if he's prepared to burst everyone's eardrums, damage their voicebox (or whatever it's called), break their legs, amputate their legs, and amputate their arms. And whatever it is that makes you lose your sense of smell. Only then can everyone be equal, because there will always be deaf people, mute people, people in wheelchairs, people born with missing limbs...

[Xondoure]

No, it won't. But it'd be part of my plan to get him to turn back. As well as asking him if he's prepared to burst everyone's eardrums, damage their voicebox (or whatever it's called), break their legs, amputate their legs, and amputate their arms. And whatever it is that makes you lose your sense of smell. Only then can everyone be equal, because there will always be deaf people, mute people, people in wheelchairs, people born with missing limbs...

When all is said and done death is truly the most peaceful state of being.

[Fragenstein]

I don't seem to see this Lion Turtle quote, so I'll be sure to throw it out for consideration:

"To bend another's energy, your own spirit must be unbendable or you will be corrupted and destroyed."

What are the odds that Aang tried to pass on his knowledge of energy bending so that it woulnd't be lost? Whoever received that ability may not have been able to handle it and been driven nutty.

I still feel that Amon is actually just manipulating the populace in some grand political scheme and doesn't actually give a rat's ass about the benders, but it's something to think about.

There's really only two sources that could teach him how to energy bend (if that's what he's actually doing). One being Aang and the other being an ancient crature dating back to the era the Lion Turtle talks about from before the Avatar cycles. I'd say learning it from Aang is the more likely option.

So, really. Tenzin should be putting more effort into getting Korra into a state where she can talk to Aang and ask "Did you teach energy bending to anyone? You did? What happened to that guy?"

[Brother Oni]

I was talking a fire producing light of a specific wavelength; similar to a grow light, not a sustained fusion reaction...

Plants need an awful lot more than just sunlight to grow.

You need to restock all the nutrients back into the soil that's been taken out by the previous harvest which we do via inorganic fertilisers mostly. Organic fertilisers have issues with pathogens, ease of use and lack of comparable yield to inorganic versions, thus they're usually a supplemental source of nutrients than a primary one in modern agriculture.

With all these additional crops you're producing, pests are going to be a major issue. Again something we sort out with modern pesticides, something I doubt the Avatar universe has quite discovered yet.
Older pesticides were quite dangerous to humans as well - a quick check on wikipedia indicates we used arsenic, mercury and lead among other things.

Water I don't perceive to be an issue with water benders around, assuming they can strip the salt out of sea water.

Finally there's the issue of them discovering this level of technological understanding. While fertilisers, pesticides and water are pretty obvious (it's mostly a matter of logistics or finding something that won't kill you), light of the correct wavelength isn't so obvious.


So, really. Tenzin should be putting more effort into getting Korra into a state where she can talk to Aang and ask "Did you teach energy bending to anyone? You did? What happened to that guy?"

While I agree that they need to work on Korra's spiritual development, given Tenzin's reaction to the mere mention of Katara's name in an argument, can you imagine what would happen if he got to talk to Aang? :smalltongue:

[planswalker]

:smallsigh:

I don't know why everyone gets only one element. People do, we don't know why (apart from OOC plot reasons). Asking why these theories don't explain that is like asking why evolution doesn't explain abiogenesis--the question doesn't make sense because that's not the question the theory tries to answer. I don't know how I can say it any clearer than that.

you're saying that as if you know how bending attunement works. The theory you're speaking of is no more sure than any other (barring some very bad outliers). I'm asking you to speculate, exactly what your analogy was attempting to explain, a speculation. And you're telling me that you won't do that because that is the way it is. So why the hell do you bother to speculate on anything instead of just saying "Bending is the way it is. There is no point to putting forth theories for how people have bending attunements".

also, your comparison to autogenesis is flawed and counterproductive to your point. No one has a definitive theory on autogenesis, yes. That doesn't mean that everyone just says, "it is the way it is" and never try to guess and speculate. All sorts of theories are put forth and people try to figure out how to test them. In fact, it's a good argument for why you should try stretching your mind and giving a guess. Even though you don't know why. Because no one knows why.

[kpenguin]

No, it won't. But it'd be part of my plan to get him to turn back. As well as asking him if he's prepared to burst everyone's eardrums, damage their voicebox (or whatever it's called), break their legs, amputate their legs, and amputate their arms. And whatever it is that makes you lose your sense of smell. Only then can everyone be equal, because there will always be deaf people, mute people, people in wheelchairs, people born with missing limbs...

And thus Amon plots to destroy the universe so all will be equal, becoming a cosmic level threat. Thanks, Jade.

[Brother Oni]

. All sorts of theories are put forth and people try to figure out how to test them. In fact, it's a good argument for why you should try stretching your mind and giving a guess. Even though you don't know why. Because no one knows why.

Because when people try and do that in this thread, things get very... heated. *Eyes kpenguin warily*

[kpenguin]

Because when people try and do that in this thread, things get very... heated. *Eyes kpenguin warily*

There is no mind control, citizens. Go back to your fun.

[planswalker]

Because when people try and do that in this thread, things get very... heated. *Eyes kpenguin warily*

that line of reasoning hasn't been something pairodice has used for why he won't answer, but if that is part, we can take it to pm's so that flames are less likely.

[Brother Oni]

that line of reasoning hasn't been something pairodice has used for why he won't answer, but if that is part, we can take it to pm's so that flames are less likely.

If you want examples of how heated things can get, take a look at the first thread. I think the bending inheritance topic was covered in some detail there as well.


There is no mind control, citizens. Go back to your fun.

There is no mind control. I shall go back to my fun.

[Fjolnir]

I did mention in 100-150 years or so, but yeah it's a matter of figuring out the details, so it's probably more likely that we would see the opposite happening, toplevel farming, underground cities...

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah, that felt... out of character.I feel like both Tenzin and Tarrlok should've taken the opposite tack. Tenzin I'd expect to talk about how they cannot give into fear, especially in the kind of public relations battle Amon is clearly trying to force. Tarrlok would just see the perfect opportunity to lay a trap for whatever forces Amon sends to the Arena. Then again, the clip cuts off rather abruptly after the two of them saying no, so I'm guessing there's a little more to their reasoning than we're being allowed to see just yet.

It smells of fake-out besides we've known for a long time a that there is some kind of arena dust-up.

[Absol197]

It smells of fake-out besides we've known for a long time a that there is some kind of arena dust-up.

Of course it's a fake out. You can't have Amon make a threat like that and then not have the heroes test their luck.

Besides, as you said, we do know that something happens at the arena eventually, and this is the final match. It's either now, or Never!

[Grey Watcher]

It smells of fake-out besides we've known for a long time a that there is some kind of arena dust-up.


Of course it's a fake out. You can't have Amon make a threat like that and then not have the heroes test their luck.

Besides, as you said, we do know that something happens at the arena eventually, and this is the final match. It's either now, or Never!

It's not so much that I expect that anyone is going to respect the ban in the slightest. That'd just be boring. It just seems surprising (to me) that those two in particular would support the ban at all.

[Dr.Epic]

Anyone know if the episodes are online/when reruns are? I'm gonna be out of town and away from a TV this Saturday morning and I don't want to miss the new episode.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Oh, and I forgot. He'd have to gouge out their eyes.

But a more reasonable (still not very "reeasonable") solution would be to give each person one physical disability. That would bring it closer to equality while still maintaining function. Sure, there might be people who are both in a wheelchair AND deaf, or something similar, but people everywhere are used to dealing with both disabilities. Still wouldn't bring "equality", as there are people who are taller or shorter or skinnier or stronger or stockier.

[Flickerdart]

I was talking a fire producing light of a specific wavelength; similar to a grow light, not a sustained fusion reaction...
For which no evidence exists, either. All we know about Firebenders able to produce specific wavelengths of light is that Azula's was blue because she was really good. We see no green fire, for instance, from someone who's better than a standard Firebender but not quite good enough for blue. It is reasonable to conclude that Firebenders are not capable of altering the wavelengths of the energy their flame emits.

[Grey Watcher]

Anyone know if the episodes are online/when reruns are? I'm gonna be out of town and away from a TV this Saturday morning and I don't want to miss the new episode.

http://www.nick.com/videos/legend-of-korra-videos?navid=showNav

They don't show up for at least 48 hours after the regular TV airtime, though. (I'm out of the house by 10:30 AM on Mondays and they're not there, but they are there by the time I get back at 9 PM.)

[Ozfer]

Episode 5 Spoiler alert-


Sorry to take the thread to the shipping side of the show, but in episode 5... Bolin's face... My god that was rough :smallfrown:!

[Dr.Epic]

http://www.nick.com/videos/legend-of-korra-videos?navid=showNav

They don't show up for at least 48 hours after the regular TV airtime, though. (I'm out of the house by 10:30 AM on Mondays and they're not there, but they are there by the time I get back at 9 PM.)

Cool. Thanks.

[kpenguin]

I wonder if Amon would like to live in the world of Harrison Bergeron...

[Soras Teva Gee]

It's not so much that I expect that anyone is going to respect the ban in the slightest. That'd just be boring. It just seems surprising (to me) that those two in particular would support the ban at all.

Nah this is all so Korra can make some plea to convince the council to let the games continue and win a round. So of course they are all together. The question will be who is the swing vote.


Oh, and I forgot. He'd have to gouge out their eyes.

But a more reasonable (still not very "reeasonable") solution would be to give each person one physical disability. That would bring it closer to equality while still maintaining function. Sure, there might be people who are both in a wheelchair AND deaf, or something similar, but people everywhere are used to dealing with both disabilities. Still wouldn't bring "equality", as there are people who are taller or shorter or skinnier or stronger or stockier.

Physical disability is broadly speaking acquired and considered a defect, the analogy doesn't hold up.

And shorter/stronger/quicker/etc aren't as broadly meaningful, they have to cultivated to be worth a damn.

[Dr. Roboto]

And shorter/stronger/quicker/etc aren't as broadly meaningful, they have to cultivated to be worth a damn.

To a certain extent, so does bending. We saw an Earthbending dojo for kids, where they were doing Karate Kid-style sand punching. It looks as though bending needs to be cultivated through regular martial arts before it can become magical martial arts.

[Soras Teva Gee]

To a certain extent, so does bending. We saw an Earthbending dojo for kids, where they were doing Karate Kid-style sand punching. It looks as though bending needs to be cultivated through regular martial arts before it can become magical martial arts.

Given that we have bending pro-athletes (a sub-section of a sub-section) I would say the ratio still works out in favor of bending be the much bigger bang for your buck.

(Mako and Bolin aren't hurting for food and are clearly being fleeced, they aren't nessecarily as 'dirt poor' as they could be)

[Dienekes]

Episode 5 Spoiler alert-


Sorry to take the thread to the shipping side of the show, but in episode 5... Bolin's face... My god that was rough :smallfrown:!


Rough? Honestly I laughed harder at that part then anything else in the episode. And the arm flailing when he ran away. Priceless.

[Brother Oni]

I did mention in 100-150 years or so, but yeah it's a matter of figuring out the details, so it's probably more likely that we would see the opposite happening, toplevel farming, underground cities...

While I will agree their technology has improved dramatically in the past 70-odd years, progressing from late-Renaissance (being generous) to early 20th Century, carried mostly by bending, I suspect that their development is going to hit a progress wall because of the lack of a scientific, technological, and industrial knowledge base.

For example, I don't see them splitting the atom within the next 25 years, elucidating the structure of DNA in the next 30 or developing transistors/semi conductor tech (although they have vacuum tubes as evidenced by those radio designs) in the same time frame.

I'm not saying they won't achieve those developments, but I believe their rate of progress is going to slow down significantly while they find the necessary discoveries to progress forwards.

I'm also curious why they'd build underground cities when they can just go sideways or up? If it's just random speculation then possibly they will, but there's enough evidence to support the fact that people don't do well when cut off from the sun (Seasonal Affective Disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder)), unless they're on a specific diet (fish rich), which they're unlikely to get in Republic City and definitely not going to get if they're subsisting off intensive agriculture methods (I don't think intensive aquaculture will provide sufficient food to support a significant part of your proposed population level).


We saw an Earthbending dojo for kids, where they were doing Karate Kid-style sand punching. It looks as though bending needs to be cultivated through regular martial arts before it can become magical martial arts.

Hmmm, could you provide a link to where you saw that dojo?

Sand 'punching' (more like slapping or finger stabbing) is a traditional conditioning exercise for hand techniques (particularly in Toph's Southern Mantis style), so as you say, it indicates that benders are competent martial artists in addition to magic kung fu powers.

I had thought that benders were masters of form and technique but skimped on conditioning, but what you've said contradicts that.

[TheTick]

You see the sand-punching stuff in the Earthbending school in the Avatar:TLA episode where he meets Toph. I just watched it the other day.

[Flickerdart]

...unless they're on a specific diet (fish rich), which they're unlikely to get in Republic City...
It's a coastal city modelled after Asian countries, with a sizable population that can pull fish from the water with magic kung fu. The only way they could have more fish is if they were Aquaman.

[planswalker]

It's a coastal city modelled after Asian countries, with a sizable population that can pull fish from the water with magic kung fu. The only way they could have more fish is if they were Aquaman.

but if they were, they'd be too busy using their super-powers to talk to them to ever bother eating them...

[Soras Teva Gee]

While I will agree their technology has improved dramatically in the past 70-odd years, progressing from late-Renaissance (being generous) to early 20th Century, carried mostly by bending, I suspect that their development is going to hit a progress wall because of the lack of a scientific, technological, and industrial knowledge base.

For example, I don't see them splitting the atom within the next 25 years, elucidating the structure of DNA in the next 30 or developing transistors/semi conductor tech (although they have vacuum tubes as evidenced by those radio designs) in the same time frame.

Late Renaissance? Hardly that.

The Fire Nation has iron-hulled coal steamers. The sorts of ships that weren't in mass production until the late 19th century. Whether built on the backs of fire benders or not that's an industrial base right there. To say nothing of everything out of the head of the Mechanist.

While still Schizo Tech I think we can handwave as the distorting effect of a century of war that once eliminated allowed for a fully industrial city to arise. Also the No Guns restriction, but on that it should be noted that unlike many inventions gunpowder is only known to have been developed once.

[Brother Oni]

It's a coastal city modelled after Asian countries, with a sizable population that can pull fish from the water with magic kung fu.

Sustainably at the levels required to support the population numbers that Fjolnir proposes?
If you think they can, then I'll bow to your superior knowledge.


Late Renaissance? Hardly that.

Forgot about the ships and tanks, but there's always the possibility that weapons tech is significantly more advanced than other tech due to the military focus (I assume that's what you mean by 'Schizo Tech').

I'll concede the industrial base (or at least the heavy industry part of it), assuming that Zuko didn't decommission everything military in a post-war kneejerk reaction, but I'm still not so convinced on the scientific and technological base.

As I mentioned earlier, bending has carried them thus far, but it may have issues carrying them forward.


Also the No Guns restriction, but on that it should be noted that unlike many inventions gunpowder is only known to have been developed once.

Assuming development of gunpowder weapons follows ours, I think it's going to take a lot longer for them to be adopted, since fire benders are going to giggle like little pyromanic children at the openpan muskets and powder bags full of highly flammable powder, or would if their firebending could actually ignite anything outside of plot.

I suspect it wouldn't be until needlefire ammo or the equivalent (ie something where the charge is relatively protected from open flame) that guns would start becoming more prominent.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I'll concede the industrial base (or at least the heavy industry part of it), assuming that Zuko didn't decommission everything military in a post-war kneejerk reaction, but I'm still not so convinced on the scientific and technological base.

We know that if he did it was reinstated at the least. And metallurgy is going to need at least some chemistry base to work from, along with at least Newtonian level physics.

Since they have radio they presumably understand something of energy. Though we can't know how close they are to stumbling onto something naturally radioactive to open that door.



Assuming development of gunpowder weapons follows ours, I think it's going to take a lot longer for them to be adopted, since fire benders are going to giggle like little pyromanic children at the openpan muskets and powder bags full of highly flammable powder, or would if their firebending could actually ignite anything outside of plot.

I suspect it wouldn't be until needlefire ammo or the equivalent (ie something where the charge is relatively protected from open flame) that guns would start becoming more prominent.

I'm not sure we can establish they have gunpowder at all is really the issue. Its a pretty particular substance. Or pair of substances rather but smokeless was developed as an improvement.

If they did though, while fire benders could make powder explosion more likely I don't think it would change the basic superiority. Guns even primitive ones should still out range benders and can be spammed across an entire army. We'd just be back to meta-reasons for their absence.

[John Cribati]

I'm not sure we can establish they have gunpowder at all is really the issue. Its a pretty particular substance. Or pair of substances rather but smokeless was developed as an improvement.

If they did though, while fire benders could make powder explosion more likely I don't think it would change the basic superiority. Guns even primitive ones should still out range benders and can be spammed across an entire army. We'd just be back to meta-reasons for their absence.

They have fireworks, so they do have gunpowder.

The problem is, the first guns could, at their fastest, fire one very inaccurate slug every five seconds. Do that against a guy whose weapon is the battlefield, and you see the problem.

[LordShotGun]

I'll concede the industrial base (or at least the heavy industry part of it), assuming that Zuko didn't decommission everything military in a post-war kneejerk reaction, but I'm still not so convinced on the scientific and technological base.


We already see them moving toward an industrial base and even if Zuko did decom everything we see similar vehicles already. I don't know why this is debated (not trying to be insulting, this just seems like a moot point). We saw that the air ships are being used for police operations, a coal operated ship is what got Korra from the pole to the city, AND we have a flipping factory turning out automobiles.

A jump to mass manufactured weapons is not only a small leap of logic but we have hard evidence that car manufacturing plants were modified into weapon factories during world war 2.

Also, with the split of the nations it is not like bending takes place of everything. Water tribes still need to learn to work metal, fire nation needs to learn to heal without water bending.

I will admit that with all benders working together alot of science may have been not pursued or lost since bending is easier then science but as Mordin from Mass Effect says "No limitations, No advancements".

[Soras Teva Gee]

They have fireworks, so they do have gunpowder.

The problem is, the first guns could, at their fastest, fire one very inaccurate slug every five seconds. Do that against a guy whose weapon is the battlefield, and you see the problem.

Five seconds would be a dream come true for most of firearms history. Long after they were common as dirt on the battlefield.

You compensate accuracy with massed fire take large groups and you don't need to hit one guy because his buddy is two paces to his left and right. And you can give every man there a gun and train them to use it in a day.

However strong the bending it as far as I've been able to see simply doesn't have the range to match. Benders will be too busy running for cover so they don't get shot on chance.

[Brother Oni]

If they did though, while fire benders could make powder explosion more likely I don't think it would change the basic superiority. Guns even primitive ones should still out range benders and can be spammed across an entire army. We'd just be back to meta-reasons for their absence.

Kinda. Early muskets had an effective range of about 100m, something which is easily outranged by a bow - I've read anecdotal evidence from an American general during the American Revolutionary War that they considered reinstating longbows, due to their rate of fire and range superiority over muskets.

Given that massed archers haven't made benders obsolete on the battlefield in Avatar, I don't think early guns will.

Besides, Earthbender powered catapults (or just Earthbenders throwing large rocks in a parabolic arc) will put a very quick end to the massed formations required by early muskets to offset their inaccuracy.


The problem is, the first guns could, at their fastest, fire one very inaccurate slug every five seconds.

By the Napoleonic era, it was said that battles were won and lost by the ability of line troops to fire three rounds per minute under stressful conditions.

As Soras Teva Gee says, a round every five seconds was very much a holy grail of firearms - it wasn't until mass production needle fire rifles were invented that you managed to reach this goal, about 500 years after the first introduction of primitive firearms.



You compensate accuracy with massed fire take large groups and you don't need to hit one guy because his buddy is two paces to his left and right. And you can give every man there a gun and train them to use it in a day.

Alternately, you give them a rifle.

Again the American Revolutionary War taught the British the value of accurate fire, but it wasn't until the Napoleonic Wars that they deployed rifleman regiments into actual combat compared to small groups of sharpshooters.

While rifles weren't trainable in a day (well they were, but aiming took a lot longer), they were certain capable of the accurate fire and range that would send benders running uselessly for cover; typically 200 yards (~180 metres) but there's plenty of evidence that good riflemen were capable of consistently hitting targets outside this range.
There's a semi-mythical pair of shots by a rifleman that's measured anywhere from 200 to 600 yards (he bagged a general, then the general's aide as he came forward to help his fallen superior).

However we are looking at early 19th firearms technology, a long way from where the Avatar universe currently is. To suggest that they have rifles within a few generations of the first introduction of firearms is stretching it a bit.

[Zeful]

However strong the bending it as far as I've been able to see simply doesn't have the range to match. Benders will be too busy running for cover so they don't get shot on chance.

For about a month, a year at most, after that defensive tech outpaces gunpowder based tech. Earthbenders will simply raise walls when they see massed fire formations, making the guns useless against the armies of the Earth Kingdom. Waterbenders have whole submarine thing now thanks to Sokka, coupled living in areas not very friendly to primitive firearms (all the water and cold). The only nations that would ever be afraid of primitive guns are the Fire Nation, who given their advanced metallurgy would likely invent the things, and The United Republic of Nations, being a cultural hodgepodge.

Primitive guns would win a single war, before the other nations found ways to invalidate their battlefield importance.

[Morty]

The thing is, all those things benders could do to protect themselves against primitive guns work against pre-gunpowder weapons as well. And yet, we see a lot of non-bending troops.

[Zeful]

The thing is, all those things benders could do to protect themselves against primitive guns work against pre-gunpowder weapons as well. And yet, we see a lot of non-bending troops.

But we see one actual ranged military unit in setting, and they were dangerous because of their tactics, not their tools.

More importantly, the world has apparently moved into small unit configurations, there was not a single massed formation anywhere but in the opening sequence.