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View Full Version : [3.5] Would these Gestalt Characters be balanced against each other?



Adamantrue
2012-05-07, 03:16 PM
I just want to know whether these characters would be considered balanced against each other, assuming equal level. Some of them are PCs, and some of them are key NPCs or BBEGs. And a few include some Homebrew options or judgement calls. I'm just concerned about the Classes themselves and the ACFs, not the Skill/Feat/Gear selections.

If they aren't...could you make suggestions to make them so, while trying to stay within the ballpark of what's already listed?

In no particular order (though you'll likely be able to spot the BBEGs):

Elf CA Ninja//Adept
* Trades Familiar for Dark Companion (PH2 47)
* Trades Sudden Strike, Poison Use & Improved Poison Use for Bonus Combat Feats (as Fighter) every odd-numbered level

Human Barbarian//Paladin of Freedom
* Warded Special Mount (EtCR 208)
* Drakkensteed Mount (DM 13, refluffed as a Pegasus)
* Trade Fast Movement for Pounce (CC 46)
* Trade DR for Track & Survival +2 (CC 46)
* Trade Smite Evil for Ranged Smite Evil (RotW 155)
* Trade Trap Sense for Thief's Luck (RotW 160)

Human Warlock//Fighter (Thug variant)
* Trade 2nd Level Feat for Resolute (CC 48)
* Trade 8th Level Feat for Armor of God (CC 48)

Human Hexblade//Paladin of Tyranny
* Trade Familiar for Dark Companion (PH2 47)
* Trade Special Mount for Charging Smite (PH2 53)
* Trade Turn Undead for Blasphemous Incantation (EoE 20)

Dwarf Denying Stance Monk//Ranger
* Trade Animal Companion for Spiritual Guide (CC 50)
* Trade Track Feat & Swift Tracker for Trapfinding & Disable Device (DS 12)
* Trade an Evasion for Spell Reflection (CM 35)
* Trade Slow Fall for Wall Walker (DS 11)
* Trade Woodland Stride for Sniping Mastery (RotW 160)
* 1st Favored Enemy is Arcane Hunter (CM 32)
* Trade Wholeness of Body for Size Matters Not (RotW 159)
* Homebrew Monk Options Avoid and Counter
Level: 9th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Improved Evasion
Benefit: When fighting defensively or using the Combat Expertise feat, a melee attack by an opponent that misses provokes a special Attack of Opportunity. You may only make a grapple or disarm attempt against that opponent when using this ability.

Widening the Stance
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Diamond Body
Benefit: When fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, you may choose to be treated as one size category larger as an immediate action, and revert to your original size as a free action. This is an extraordinary ability.
Widening the Stance grants you a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity, and a -1 size penalty to attacks and AC. Your space and reach increases by 5 ft. This effect stacks with any other effect that increases a character’s size (such as enlarge person).

Acrobatic Denial
Level: 11th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Greater Flurry
Benefit: When attempting to grapple an opponent that is under the effect of freedom of movement or similar ability, you may make a special Tumble check as an immediate action to negate its effects for the purpose of your grapple only. The DC is equal to 10 + level of the spell + the caster’s relevant ability score, and the effect lasts until the start of your next turn.
You may also use a Tumble check to oppose an Escape Artist attempt to get out of a grapple or pin.

Disarming Strike
Level: 17th
Prerequisites: Denying Stance bonus ability
Replaces: Tongue of the Sun and Moon
Benefit: When fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise, you may make a free disarm attempt whenever you make a successful melee attack.
Human Marshal//Paladin
* Warded Special Mount (EtCR 208)
* Trade Grant Move Action with Adrenaline Boost (PH2 49)

Human Aristocrat//Divine Bard
* Trade Fascinate for Healing Hymn (CC 47)
* Trade Suggestion for Phantasmal Song (RoS 148)
* Trade Countersong for Spellbreaker Song (CM 35)
* Trade Mass Suggestion for Repel Domination (EtCR 206)
* Trade Inspire Competence for Hymn of Fortification (CC 47)

Dwarf Swordsage//Warrior
* Trade Armor Proficiency (heavy) for Dodge Feat (RotD 108)

eggs
2012-05-07, 06:18 PM
If the Paladins, Hexblades and Rangers have access to the spell compendium and complete champion, it looks pretty good.

But the characters that use those half-casters as engines might take a bit of extra care, compared to the Swordsage, Bard, Warlock and Adept-fueled gestalts. Be sure the Marshal and Hexblade have allies to capitalize on their group-oriented abilities, and that the Monk and Hexblade have some tactical movement powers (some inexpensive items can cover that).

Unrelated to their comparative balance, I can't help but want to spec that Barbarian as a charger with Street Fighter and the standard melee smite. And I don't even normally get to worked up about chargers.

Chronos
2012-05-07, 09:44 PM
The aristocrat//bard leaves me scratching my head... Does a bard gain anything by having aristocrat on the other side of a gestalt?

gorfnab
2012-05-07, 10:35 PM
The aristocrat//bard leaves me scratching my head... Does a bard gain anything by having aristocrat on the other side of a gestalt?
Handle Animal, Ride, and Survival as class skills. Proficiency with all martial weapons, armor and shields. D8 HD. I would put Warrior on the other side instead for the full BAB.

shadow_archmagi
2012-05-07, 10:37 PM
It's also pretty important to know what level they are. A lot of classes have widely differing effectiveness at different levels. Paladin, for example, stops getting class features around level 5.

deuxhero
2012-05-07, 11:46 PM
Hexblade//Paladin of Tyranny has some cheese potential (everyone takes -4 saves by being near him), though not TOO bad if you don't bring Blackguard and Entropmancer into the mix.

Adamantrue
2012-05-08, 06:47 AM
It's also pretty important to know what level they are. A lot of classes have widely differing effectiveness at different levels. Paladin, for example, stops getting class features around level 5. The average level will be about 12, with a range of 10 to 16.
The aristocrat//bard leaves me scratching my head... Does a bard gain anything by having aristocrat on the other side of a gestalt? As already mentioned, plus Forgery, Intimidate, and Spot. Spot and Forgery are more important for this particular character than Full BAB & Fort Save, and there are plenty of other Full BAB characters to pick up the slack.

Otherwise...yeah, Warrior would be a more obvious choice.
If the Paladins, Hexblades and Rangers have access to the spell compendium and complete champion, it looks pretty good. All 3.5 specific books except ones that are campaign-specific (such as Eberron or Forgotten Realms) or the Dragon Compendium are fine, with oddball stuff available on a case-by-case basis.
Unrelated to their comparative balance, I can't help but want to spec that Barbarian as a charger with Street Fighter and the standard melee smite. And I don't even normally get to worked up about chargers. Player wants to split things between Mounted Archery & melee. To quote him: "I'm a Barbarian with Power Attack, Pounce, and Swift Action Paladin Spells. Do I really need more?"

(I'm still trying to push Whirling Frenzy on him. If he goes for it, he probably is fine.)

docnessuno
2012-05-08, 07:57 AM
Warlock / Thug strikes me as potentially the most dangerous of the lot.
Eldritch glaive with full BaB and sneak attack on top of it can pull out ridicolous amount of damage (stil nothing remotely approaching T1/2 of course).

Acrobatic Denial feels a bit weird, and i would limit disarming strike to once per turn (or have it require a swift action)

I would change the bard gestalt combination, he really feels like a single classed character in a gestalt mix. Adding rogue or factotum (only if not abusing font of inspiration) should even things out.