(3.5) Taking 10

[Vegan Zombie]

Hey fellow gamers, I can't seem to find the rules on taking 10 and such. Does that means it takes 10 rounds? Or do you just take a roll of 10?

[Namfuak]

The latter. It's basically saying that whatever you are doing is relatively trivial, and since you can do it on a roll of ten +bonuses, it isn't reasonable that you would have a chance of failing.


Taking 10

When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure —you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn’t help.

A good example would be something like securing a rope for rappelling when you have 10 ranks in use rope and aren't rushed. Could you make a mistake? Sure, but at that point you aren't just going to tie it and call it good, you're going to test it first, and if you did make a mistake you'll know how to fix it since you've done it before. You aren't rushed, so you'll take your time doing it.

[Rubik]

I take 10 whenever possible if I have a decent score in a skill.

It's when my score is low that I roll, in the hopes of getting a high one.

I'm doing that right now with my shaper/constructor // factotum/totemist. He has some really nice scores in his skills, and taking 10 is a really nice way to auto-succeed with frequency.

[Vegan Zombie]

Cool thanks Namfuak and Rubik!

[Roguenewb]

WARNING: This rule gets horribly butchered by play groups. Many groups rule that any downside to failing prevents taking 10 like it does preventing taking 20, and some other groups will let you take 10 in anything short of actual combat. Make sure you and your DM read the rule, and come to a clear decision before hand.

[Namfuak]

WARNING: This rule gets horribly butchered by play groups. Many groups rule that any downside to failing prevents taking 10 like it does preventing taking 20, and some other groups will let you take 10 in anything short of actual combat. Make sure you and your DM read the rule, and come to a clear decision before hand.

As long as we are getting into common misconceptions, here are the things you should know:

Taking 10:

As noted, there are sometimes more rules associated with taking ten than simply that it can't be done in combat or under duress. Requiring a certain number of ranks or the downside part are the most common.

Taking 20:

This takes 2 minutes, not 20. "Taking 20" means simulating rolling every round until you get 20 on the roll, not taking 20 minutes to do something. 2 minutes is 20 rounds, which is why it only takes two minutes (1/20 chance per round of rolling 20).

Skills in general:

Skill checks do not automatically fail on a natural one nor do they automatically succeed on a natural 20. This is probably the most common houserule in the game that people don't know is a houserule.

[OracleofSilence]

Skill checks do not automatically fail on a natural one nor do they automatically succeed on a natural 20. This is probably the most common houserule in the game that people don't know is a houserule.


Actually, it says that in the PHB pg.63


Unlike with attack roll and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not a automatic failure.

So definitely not a house rule...

However, everything else that you said stands. Taking ten taks the normal action associated with that skill, but can only be used when you are not under stress. Note that there are a buttload of class features that let you take ten on various skills, even in combat. Taking twenty si just long hand for "i rolled 20 times, and statistics was with me"

[Namfuak]

Actually, it says that in the PHB pg.63



So definitely not a house rule...

However, everything else that you said stands. Taking ten taks the normal action associated with that skill, but can only be used when you are not under stress. Note that there are a buttload of class features that let you take ten on various skills, even in combat. Taking twenty si just long hand for "i rolled 20 times, and statistics was with me"

Actually, that's what I said. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant that the houserule is that they ARE automatic successes or failures.

[OracleofSilence]

Actually, that's what I said. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant that the houserule is that they ARE automatic successes or failures.

No Problem, just a misunderstanding on my part. But really? People make that house rule? I really don't see the point of applying that to skills.

[Amphetryon]

No Problem, just a misunderstanding on my part. But really? People make that house rule? I really don't see the point of applying that to skills.

I hear that many groups with this rule have retired Rogues with nicknames of "Lefty" or "Stumpy". :smallwink:

[TypoNinja]

No Problem, just a misunderstanding on my part. But really? People make that house rule? I really don't see the point of applying that to skills.

Probably just an outgrowth of the habit of nat 20 means it's good and nat 1 means something bad just happened.

I tell my players to take a 10 all the time, especially on easy things. Most basic tasks from a skill are 10's and 15's. With 2-3 ranks in a skill you can make that on a 10. Climb. Taking a 10 on climb is your friend.

Taking a 20 represents trying over and over again till you get it just perfect. Good for open lock, bad for climbing.

[OracleofSilence]

I hear that many groups with this rule have retired Rogues with nicknames of "Lefty" or "Stumpy".

And those are the luck ones. Most of the time, my group just has unmarked graves (hell even those ones got off easy), or ash-piles, and that is without fumbling skills...

[Callista]

WARNING: This rule gets horribly butchered by play groups. Many groups rule that any downside to failing prevents taking 10 like it does preventing taking 20, and some other groups will let you take 10 in anything short of actual combat. Make sure you and your DM read the rule, and come to a clear decision before hand.Yeah, I agree here. I've seen a wide variety of interpretations in the groups I've been in. If in doubt, get a DM ruling; or get a temporary ruling and read up on it later so the game doesn't pause for rules-lawyering.

Dropping the rule entirely seems pretty unrealistic to me though. Take 10 is supposed to be for things that are so easy for your character that it would take distraction or adverse circumstances for them to mess it up without looking quite silly indeed.

Take 10 examples:
Climb: A gymnast climbs up a rope; an average person climbs up a steep slope.
Craft: An experienced factory worker does his routine daily work.
Decipher Script: A high school student reads his friend's messy handwriting; an English professor reads Beowulf in the original language.
Gather Information: You ask directions to the nearest gas station.
Heal: A paramedic takes the pulse of a stable, non-emergency patient; an experienced surgeon performs an appendectomy.
Search: You find your car keys in your purse.
Survival: An experienced fisherman guts and cleans his catch.
Swim: You doggy-paddle across a swimming pool.
Use Rope: A ten-year-old child ties his shoes.

[Namfuak]

Use Rope: A ten-year-old child ties his shoes.

Oh man, I'm 19 and I barely make the DC for that on a 20.

[KillianHawkeye]

Taking 20:

This takes 2 minutes, not 20. "Taking 20" means simulating rolling every round until you get 20 on the roll, not taking 20 minutes to do something. 2 minutes is 20 rounds, which is why it only takes two minutes (1/20 chance per round of rolling 20).

Taking 20 actually takes 20 times as long as normal, so that is true most of the time, but some skills (like Search) take more than one round to perform.

[Objection]

Search: You find your car keys in your purse.

My mum would argue that that'd be taking 20 :smalltongue:

[TypoNinja]

My mum would argue that that'd be taking 20 :smalltongue:

I've seen purses like that.

Circumstance penalty :P

[nedz]

Climb: A gymnast climbs up a rope; an average person climbs up a steep slope.
Craft: An experienced factory worker does his routine daily work.
Decipher Script: A high school student reads his friend's messy handwriting; an English professor reads Beowulf in the original language.
Gather Information: You ask directions to the nearest gas station.
Heal: A paramedic takes the pulse of a stable, non-emergency patient; an experienced surgeon performs an appendectomy.
Search: You find your car keys in your purse.
Survival: An experienced fisherman guts and cleans his catch.
Swim: You doggy-paddle across a swimming pool.
Use Rope: A ten-year-old child ties his shoes.

IRL I've seen most of these go badly wrong :smallbiggrin:

I'm not sure the probability is 5% though, still thats the wonder of the d20 universe.

In a game: mundane screw ups get old very fast.

[Zjordan85]

A houserule my group uses to build on the "20 isn't an auto success, 1 isn't an auto fail"

When you roll a natural 20 on a skill check or anything tied to an attribute short of an attack roll, you accumulate 1/10 of the relevant attribute, when you roll a natural 1, the opposite occurs. When you reach 10/10, you gain the point immediately, you also can not fall below the nearest full point, you can only lose 1/10ths you've gained in between full points.

DM's reasoning is that on a 20, you've picked up something about that skill, you've learned something. The opposite applies for a 1.

[Sutremaine]

So, there's a tangible mechanical benefit in your games for rolling lots of skill checks? How quickly are stats gained with this houserule?

[Rubik]

So, there's a tangible mechanical benefit in your games for rolling lots of skill checks? How quickly are stats gained with this houserule?Time to start rolling LOTS of Knowledge checks.

Steve Irwin must've been a supergenius.

[Namfuak]

So, there's a tangible mechanical benefit in your games for rolling lots of skill checks? How quickly are stats gained with this houserule?

Not that I'm in his group, but there technically is very little statistical benefit to doing this, because there is an equal chance of losing and gaining a tenth of a skill point. The actual chance of gaining a whole skill point with this rule is something like .0977%. I suppose there is no downside, but it does not seem like there is much of an upside either.

[Rubik]

Not that I'm in his group, but there technically is very little statistical benefit to doing this, because there is an equal chance of losing and gaining a tenth of a skill point. The actual chance of gaining a whole skill point with this rule is something like .0977%. I suppose there is no downside, but it does not seem like there is much of an upside either.That's what rerolls are for. There are ways to reroll skill checks all the time, if you know how.

Second Chance, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/secondChance.htm) for instance.

[Namfuak]

That's what rerolls are for. There are ways to reroll skill checks all the time, if you know how.

Second Chance, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/secondChance.htm) for instance.

Hmm, I want to see how we could break this rule now. How many rerolls can be fit into one round reliably (Like this one, where it is once every round, rather than once every few hours or day).

[chomskola]

This post and replies have inspired a few questions:

1. whats the rest of the group supposed to do in those 20 turns?
2. how long does "taking ten" take?
3. How can the DM play out 20 turns without screwing everything up??
4. IF the take 20 time is interrupted, what has occurred in the foregone timeframe?
5. could you take 10 on a search check with a low DC?
6. any way to speed up or improve game play of searching 5X5 squares (takes a while)

Finally, anyone else find themselves subconciously calculating DCS i real life?:smallsmile:

[Rubik]

This post and replies have inspired a few questions:

1. whats the rest of the group supposed to do in those 20 turns?Also take 20 on Aid Another, or on blowing bubbles, or whatever else they want to do.


2. how long does "taking ten" take?Exactly the same as rolling.


3. How can the DM play out 20 turns without screwing everything up??Timeskip.


4. IF the take 20 time is interrupted, what has occurred in the foregone timeframe?Whatever would happen otherwise.


5. could you take 10 on a search check with a low DC?Unless you're distracted or pressured, yes.


6. any way to speed up or improve game play of searching 5X5 squares (takes a while)Take 1 the first round, take 2 the second, etc. That way, if you have +10 on your check and the DC is 15, it only takes 5 rounds instead of 20.


Finally, anyone else find themselves subconciously calculating DCS i real life?:smallsmile:No.

[Namfuak]

Rubiks is right, although I should note that my group never actually enforces search rules that strictly, because it's so tedious, and the only time it would matter in the first place is if you are searching for traps, which only one or two members of the party would be doing, while everyone else is just twiddling their thumbs.

[Lonely Tylenol]

No Problem, just a misunderstanding on my part. But really? People make that house rule? I really don't see the point of applying that to skills.

In my first group, the Fighter (who was optimizing Jump and only Jump), who had Jump cast upon him (by me, CL 5-8 at the time), who could not fail his Jump check on a 1, was made to roll his check. He rolled a 1 and thus failed. He was trying to jump onto the back of a charging rhino. He instead jumped on his horn (or something stupid). It wasn't instant death fumble, like I have seen in other games (it wouldn't have been; we had +infinity Plot Armor), but it was punishment for failing a skill check the player couldn't fail.

This happened all the time, and it wouldn't be until well after I left that game that I found out this was a house rule.

[chomskola]

Which brings me onto another point, as a DM how do you strike a balance between players spending forever in a room until they "eventually" find that trap and the other side of recklessly running through the rooms. In my group I have one player who is highly intelligent and extremely pendantic and patient, and quite willing to figure out in gameworld terms how to get out of scrapes using physics and engineering etc etc, and I also have a rogue who instead of checking for traps, runs around wrecklessly. HOW to motivate players not to hang around forever and not having a "take 20" until the 2nd coming of christ vibe and also discourage the opposite? opinions welcome!

[huttj509]

Which brings me onto another point, as a DM how do you strike a balance between players spending forever in a room until they "eventually" find that trap and the other side of recklessly running through the rooms. In my group I have one player who is highly intelligent and extremely pendantic and patient, and quite willing to figure out in gameworld terms how to get out of scrapes using physics and engineering etc etc, and I also have a rogue who instead of checking for traps, runs around wrecklessly. HOW to motivate players not to hang around forever and not having a "take 20" until the 2nd coming of christ vibe and also discourage the opposite? opinions welcome!

"Ok, now we add the second 10 pound weight and push it along the floor, any pressure plates this time?"

Out of game? If a player says "I take 20 on searching the room" you tell them if they found something. You don't roll all 20 times. Do you use a lot of traps, or are the ones you use particularly deadly? You may have inadvertently 'trained' your players to be extra cautious, or suffer the consequences.

In game? Time pressures. Are they being pursued? Is the princess just going to wait around until whenever the party arrives is right before the dragon eats her, even if they take a 2 month vacation to Hawaii in the meantime?

[chomskola]

[QUOTE=huttj509;13210397]"Ok, now we add the second 10 pound weight and push it along the floor, any pressure plates this time?"

I chuckled a lot at this, exactly. I had a guy decide to use a rope and improvised grappling hook to use the wooden scaffolding atop the mineshaft to one by one get all the characters past the dangerous pit trap I had prepared.

NO I don't prepare big bad traps, I have a player who gets off on figuring out how to "beat" the challenges but in a way that makes play slow monotonous and pedestrian for me and everyone else.

[nedz]

This happened all the time, and it wouldn't be until well after I left that game that I found out this was a house rule.
Buy some new dice, seriously '1's all of the time

Rubiks is right, although I should note that my group never actually enforces search rules that strictly, because it's so tedious, and the only time it would matter in the first place is if you are searching for traps, which only one or two members of the party would be doing, while everyone else is just twiddling their thumbs.

OK - If I have a PC searching some large room or long corridor I just ask them to make three rolls. If there is a trap, then I'll have pre-decided which roll I'm going to use, ... well maybe I'll roll a d3 or something.

This stops them from knowing how many traps there are, allows them to use their ability, adds a modicum of suspense, but doesn't get boring.

If they persist in searching everywhere - I will just hand wave it and skip onto the next room or whatever.

[Spuddles]

Which brings me onto another point, as a DM how do you strike a balance between players spending forever in a room until they "eventually" find that trap and the other side of recklessly running through the rooms. In my group I have one player who is highly intelligent and extremely pendantic and patient, and quite willing to figure out in gameworld terms how to get out of scrapes using physics and engineering etc etc, and I also have a rogue who instead of checking for traps, runs around wrecklessly. HOW to motivate players not to hang around forever and not having a "take 20" until the 2nd coming of christ vibe and also discourage the opposite? opinions welcome!

Record buff times. Many DMs want to punish cautious players, which personally I cannot stand. Instead of punishing ad hoc, just enforce the rules that spells wear off. It takes a long time to thoroughly search (taking 20) a dungeon. And if they don't have spells up, well let the skillful players get to use their goddamn skills, instead of introducing more arbitrary rules that reward everyone for playing wizards, yeah?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Buy some new dice, seriously '1's all of the time

Well, OK, I was in that game for close to a year, so when I think back to the number of '1's rolled, the quantity may be increased slightly by this fact. :smalltongue:

[TypoNinja]

OK - If I have a PC searching some large room or long corridor I just ask them to make three rolls. If there is a trap, then I'll have pre-decided which roll I'm going to use, ... well maybe I'll roll a d3 or something.

This stops them from knowing how many traps there are, allows them to use their ability, adds a modicum of suspense, but doesn't get boring.
.

This... is a really good idea, consider it stolen.

[Raymith]

Hey, I'm having issues with this myself, and want a more specific example covered... I'm an artificer with a 10 in Use Magic Device, +4 with my modifier, and +4 from my Skill Enhancement infusion for a total of +18 in Use Magic Device.

That being said, one of my other infusions is Spell Storing Item (I'd post a link, but I haven't made enough posts to be allowed to). Could I take 10 on this infusion, being sufficiently aquainted with this ability? Or would it simply be restricted to using the "wand"?

[Jowgen]

Taking 10? You get a handbook! YOU get a handbook! Everybody gets a handbook!!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?355562-quot-Can-I-Take-10-quot-Table-of-sourcebook-examples-mentions-of-taking-10)

[Rijan_Sai]

Hey, I'm having issues with this myself, and want a more specific example covered... I'm an artificer with a 10 in Use Magic Device, +4 with my modifier, and +4 from my Skill Enhancement infusion for a total of +18 in Use Magic Device.

That being said, one of my other infusions is Spell Storing Item (I'd post a link, but I haven't made enough posts to be allowed to). Could I take 10 on this infusion, being sufficiently aquainted with this ability? Or would it simply be restricted to using the "wand"?

No, because you're not 13th level yet, and UMD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm) has this:

Special

You cannot take 10 with this skill.
(I say that partially facetiously because at level 13, when the Artificer gains the ability to override ^that rule, you could have 16 ranks in a class skill. Since you only mention having 10 ranks, you obviously are not a high enough level yet...:smallbiggrin:)

Anyway, the way I read the infusion, cross-referenced against Artificer's Skill Mastery, then yes, you can Take 10 on that infusion!