Sneak Attack and Hide in Plain Sight

[Invader]

Simple question.

Can a rogue made a ranged sneak attack if hidden and if he has hide in plain sight?

And If he can make the ranged sneak attack can he then use hide in plain sight to hide without the -20 hide check and make a sneak attack the next round?

[Snowbluff]

Yes, if the person is not aware of your presence, you can SA.

Yep.

[Invader]

Now if HiPS wasn't such a pain in the butt to get lol.

[prufock]

I would say no to the second. HIPS says nothing about negating this penalty, and the penalty has nothing to do with "being observed." Unless I've missed errata or something from Rules Compendium, the two things are independent.

[Golkiwu]

UMD wand of Quickened True Strike in one hand, and UMD Wand of Scorching Ray in the other.

U need a good UMD of course :smallwink:

[Namfuak]

I would say no to the second. HIPS says nothing about negating this penalty, and the penalty has nothing to do with "being observed." Unless I've missed errata or something from Rules Compendium, the two things are independent.

You are correct that he could not use the the same move action to hide without penalty. However, if he sniped, waited until the next round, and then hid again, he would do so with no penalty (assuming the HiPS conditions are met).

[Invader]

You are correct that he could not use the the same move action to hide without penalty. However, if he sniped, waited until the next round, and then hid again, he would do so with no penalty (assuming the HiPS conditions are met).

So basically you could sneak attack in the first round, hide in the second round and sneak attack again in the 3rd round?

[Curmudgeon]

And If he can make the ranged sneak attack can he then use hide in plain sight to hide without the -20 hide check and make a sneak attack the next round?
You may be thinking of another -20 penalty (the one for Sniping, which requires a dedicated move action to not move and Hide, and isn't necessary with HiPS), but there's still a penalty.
It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. Assuming you've got one of the good versions of Hide in Plain Sight which satisfies both Hide skill requirements, you can stand there and make a full attack, making a Hide check with every shot. You're not limited to just one shot per round.

If you're going to actually move after firing a single shot, Hide in Plain Sight will let you do that with at most a -5 penalty for moving at more than half speed.

[Namfuak]

So basically you could sneak attack in the first round, hide in the second round and sneak attack again in the 3rd round?

Yeah, although it's definitely not an optimal strategy. You're probably better off using ranged flanking to trigger sneak attacks.


You may be thinking of another -20 penalty (the one for Sniping, which requires a dedicated move action to not move and Hide, and isn't necessary with HiPS), but there's still a penalty. Assuming you've got one of the good versions of Hide in Plain Sight which satisfies both Hide skill requirements, you can stand there and make a full attack, making a Hide check with every shot. You're not limited to just one shot per round.

If you're going to actually move after firing a single shot, Hide in Plain Sight will let you do that with at most a -5 penalty for moving at more than half speed.

Unfortunately, the hide skill is quite clear on the fact that it is a move action to hide after a ranged attack.




Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.


I'd probably let the OP hide after a full attack presuming he had not taken his five-foot step yet, but I'm not his DM.

EDIT: I should mention that that wouldn't apply if you took a standard action to shoot once and then moved.

[Curmudgeon]

Yeah, although it's definitely not an optimal strategy. You're probably better off using ranged flanking to trigger sneak attacks.
That's pretty tough to come by. Basically you need a bunch of Rangers with Distracting Attack ACF (Player's Handbook II, page 55), each attacking a different target with every shot (because the ranged flank condition ends as soon as the "flanked" target is attacked again). And (unfortunately) there's no Ranger/Rogue multiclassing feat.

[Namfuak]

That's pretty tough to come by. Basically you need a bunch of Rangers with Distracting Attack ACF (Player's Handbook II, page 55), each attacking a different target with every shot (because the ranged flank condition ends as soon as the "flanked" target is attacked again). And (unfortunately) there's no Ranger/Rogue multiclassing feat.

I thought that there was a feat in CW that let you do it. I guess you could go with ranged pins to make them flat footed against your other attacks, but even that probably won't last more than a round. Maybe the OP's best bet is UMD and wand of grease?

[Invader]

I should have prefaced this by saying I'm really just looking for the best way to make a ranged sneak attack every round.

As we discussed, before the current winner is still wands of grease/invis but that would only get me sneak every other round.

[OracleofSilence]

It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

This made me laugh. I mean I know wizards did not really play test in an optimized manner, but surely they realized how absurdly high a skill modifier could be pushed...

Sure -20 is pretty big, but still, its hardly "practically impossible". I mean there was one fight i was in where the rogue managed to totally hide the fact that he kept stabbing some guy in the face (he had HiPS sure, but that just let him make the checks at all).

[Gavinfoxx]

Ring of Blinking?

[Invader]

Geared more towards lower levels. Ring of blinking would def be an option for later levels.

Although with a ring of blink don't you have 20% miss chance with every attack which I would imagine would apply to every thrown weapon in a round separately?

[Gavinfoxx]

Right, and Grease is the low level option... So what is the problem?

[Invader]

I should have prefaced this by saying I'm really just looking for the best way to make a ranged sneak attack every round.

As we discussed, before the current winner is still wands of grease/invis but that would only get me sneak every other round.

I was trying to figure out a way to get a sneak attack off every round instead of every other round.

[Gavinfoxx]

Which, at low level, is making enemies Balance...

[Jack_Simth]

Simple question.

Can a rogue made a ranged sneak attack if hidden and if he has hide in plain sight?

Yes, absolutely... assuming he meets all not-mentioned criteria for sneak attacking, anyway (such as no concealment on the target).


And If he can make the ranged sneak attack can he then use hide in plain sight to hide without the -20 hide check and make a sneak attack the next round?Nothing in Hide in Plain Sight explicitly overrides the clause in Hide about -20 for attacking while hiding.

If you hide the next round with your move action (hiding is part of movement), then you can do so at no penalty and use your standard as an attack... which un-hides you. So while yes, you can get a sneak attack in every round this way, you're not hidden when it's the target's turn.

[OracleofSilence]

I was trying to figure out a way to get a sneak attack off every round instead of every other round.

Well if you sneak attack with enough hits, then getting a sneak attack off every round might not be necessary.

Some people recommend using Invisible Blade with Swashbuckler/Rogue since it lets you feint as a free action (it counts as part of your attack), but that was later errata'd to mean only once per round (this only works with melee though).

Other then that, i think your best option is to get your Fighter to specialize in tripping...

[Jack_Simth]

Other then that, i think your best option is to get your Fighter to specialize in tripping...A grappler is very useful too - someone in a grapple is denied dex to AC vs. anyone not in the grapple. Fighter can be good at it, the Wizard can get Telekinesis, Black Tentacles, Grappling Hand, or any of a number of other methods, Druid's pet can do it, if you're good aligned (or have UMD), a Rod of the Python can do it for you....

[gallagher]

easiest solution that will let you do it every round: want of ebon eyes, wand of darkness.

cast ebon eyes on yourself and then darkness centered on yourself. they cant see you unless they have ebon eyes, devil's sight, or the suchlike that lets you see in magical darkness.

you are, however, vulnerable to the mighty fireball at this point, so i would suggest trying to make an enemy's caster's ally in the sphere of darkness as well.

alternatively, cast ebon eyes on yourself, cast darkness on the other person (or something they are wearing). now they cant see, and you can sneak attack them exclusively and have everyone else pay attention to the rest of the enemy. this takes someone out of the game while you kill them at your leisure

[Curmudgeon]

If you hide the next round with your move action (hiding is part of movement), then you can do so at no penalty and use your standard as an attack... which un-hides you. So while yes, you can get a sneak attack in every round this way, you're not hidden when it's the target's turn.
Maybe; maybe not. If you've going to plan on that approach, there's no downside to also trying to Hide while attacking. You might get lucky, and the enemy won't know your location for that turn.

[mattie_p]

I was trying to figure out a way to get a sneak attack off every round instead of every other round.


A grappler is very useful too - someone in a grapple is denied dex to AC vs. anyone not in the grapple. Fighter can be good at it, the Wizard can get Telekinesis, Black Tentacles, Grappling Hand, or any of a number of other methods, Druid's pet can do it, if you're good aligned (or have UMD), a Rod of the Python can do it for you....

Take a look at Savage Grapple, Complete Adventurer page 114.


While you are in a wild shape, any time you make a successful grapple check to damage a creature with which you are already grappling, you can add your sneak attack damage as well. Creatures not subject to sneak attacks don’t take this extra damage.

Unlike other wild feats, this does not cost a wild shape use per day. This allows you to sneak attack every round, perhaps multiple times per round, if you have wild shape with multiple limbs.

[Invader]

easiest solution that will let you do it every round: want of ebon eyes, wand of darkness.

cast ebon eyes on yourself and then darkness centered on yourself. they cant see you unless they have ebon eyes, devil's sight, or the suchlike that lets you see in magical darkness.

you are, however, vulnerable to the mighty fireball at this point, so i would suggest trying to make an enemy's caster's ally in the sphere of darkness as well.

alternatively, cast ebon eyes on yourself, cast darkness on the other person (or something they are wearing). now they cant see, and you can sneak attack them exclusively and have everyone else pay attention to the rest of the enemy. this takes someone out of the game while you kill them at your leisure

I'm really liking this option the best. I think both spells last 30 mins? You can place the darkness in choke points on groups of enemies between your group and the targets etc. and ebon eyes can be precast before battle assuming you have any time. Outside someone dispelling it and it maybe hampering your allies I see very little downside to this method.

[Chronos]

Quoth Jack_Simth:

If you hide the next round with your move action (hiding is part of movement), then you can do so at no penalty and use your standard as an attack... which un-hides you. So while yes, you can get a sneak attack in every round this way, you're not hidden when it's the target's turn.You don't have to take your move action before your standard, you know. You could just attack and break your hiding, then move to hide again.

[Jack_Simth]

Quoth Jack_Simth:
You don't have to take your move action before your standard, you know. You could just attack and break your hiding, then move to hide again.
Correct. However, if you're doing that, you're immediately hiding after making the attack, which invokes the -20 to hide.

[tyckspoon]

easiest solution that will let you do it every round: want of ebon eyes, wand of darkness.

cast ebon eyes on yourself and then darkness centered on yourself. they cant see you unless they have ebon eyes, devil's sight, or the suchlike that lets you see in magical darkness.

you are, however, vulnerable to the mighty fireball at this point, so i would suggest trying to make an enemy's caster's ally in the sphere of darkness as well.


Or they can just, you know, look at you, because DARKNESS DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. It doesn't actually cause dark; it sets the light levels in its area to 'shadowy illumination'. In real conditions of darkness, the spell Darkness can in fact be used as a makeshift source of light.

Now, Darkness + some way of ignoring it is a pretty handy combo, don't get me wrong- it does a lot of useful things. But it doesn't make you invisible.

[Crasical]

My character in a current game has a Warlock 1/Rogue 5 as her Thrall, with the Darkness invocation. Having darkness as a spell-like ability qualifies him for Fade into Darkness and Blend into Shadows.

The thrall uses his Darkness ability as a standard action on a lock of hair, which he then puts into a locket, sealing it so that the darkness is not obviously radiating any longer. Now that he's got a source of magical darkness within a foot, he can trigger Blend Into Shadows as a swift action to hide in plain sight, and take a standard action at any time to give himself a +5 to hide checks, letting him move, attack, and re-hide all in one round.

It's only a single attack a round, but it's been very reliable damage.

[JadePhoenix]

This made me laugh. I mean I know wizards did not really play test in an optimized manner, but surely they realized how absurdly high a skill modifier could be pushed...

Sure -20 is pretty big, but still, its hardly "practically impossible". I mean there was one fight i was in where the rogue managed to totally hide the fact that he kept stabbing some guy in the face (he had HiPS sure, but that just let him make the checks at all).

Well, if you need magic and high level to do something then yes, it is "practically impossible". High level characters just do the impossible in a round-by-round basis, that's all.

[Person_Man]

Ranged Sneak Attack is terrible. You need to stay within 30 feet of your targets, invest 3-6 Feats to get it to function properly, and then need to invest further resources so that you qualify for Sneak Attack every round. You may wish to consider starting with a ranged or thrown weapons (so you get a full attack on the first round against Flat Footed enemies) and then switching to melee after that. Flanking is much more reliable and easy to trigger.

If you do stick with ranged Sneak Attack, a Ring of Blinking (or just a wand of Blinking or any similar spell) works well, though it requires a Standard Action to activate, and you'll want to take Blind Fight and Pierce Magical Concealment to negate the 20% miss chance. (Which are good high level feat selections anyway.

A Wand of Swift Invisibility (Spell Compendium) in a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) works fairly well also.

You might also want to consider the Shadow Mantle soulmeld bound to your Shoulder chakra (Magic of Incarnum) which works fairly well at close range for a low investment. You can create a Globe of Darkness at will as a Swift Action. You are Invisible to anyone who can't see in magical darkness (and it doesn't end when you attack). The only down side is that those outside of the Globe can guess your location, and the ability to see in magical darkness isn't that rare. Anyone can use it with just 1 point of essentia and 2 Feats, Shape Soulmeld and Open Lesser Chakra (though the latter requires at least 12 hit die).

[Invader]

Or they can just, you know, look at you, because DARKNESS DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. It doesn't actually cause dark; it sets the light levels in its area to 'shadowy illumination'. In real conditions of darkness, the spell Darkness can in fact be used as a makeshift source of light.

Now, Darkness + some way of ignoring it is a pretty handy combo, don't get me wrong- it does a lot of useful things. But it doesn't make you invisible.

Hmm I don't think I've ever actually looked at the description before but you're right. I'm surprised there's not a spell of true darkness out there. It seems like that would be a pretty standard handy spell with tons of applications.

[Invader]

Hmm I don't think I've ever actually looked at the description before but you're right. I'm surprised there's not a spell of true darkness out there. It seems like that would be a pretty standard handy spell with tons of applications.

Ahh Blacklight from FRCS does exactly that and actually lets the caster see while inside the area although he can't see through it from outside. The only downside is it only lasts 1 round/lvl.