Johnny Bravo and the heyday of Cartoon Network [Archive]

Soras Teva Gee

2012-05-08, 09:12 AM

However there are still some great cartoons out there, although the better ones tend to be the more adult end of the market, as in Archer and Family Guy (althought that is becomeing more hit and miss).

From what I've seen Archer is indicative of a broad decline in animation.

Putting aside whether it is funny, as I don't find many of the 90s Renaissance era ones funny either, it is quite shoddily made. The movements are jerky and everything is flat, its practically South Park without enough stylization to make that loosely acceptable. And that whole turned out in days not months thing South Park has.

And frankly all Archer and most of its genre have going for it is being funny, the stories are broadly just framing devices for the gags. If you don't find them funny they boil out to nothing.

Sure they can make you laugh, but can they make you cry?

Fjolnir

2012-05-08, 09:16 AM

Check Saturdays on Adult Swim.

Toonami man.

TOONAMI.

They even did a review for Mass Effect 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYjpiddvMVU).

Annoyingly they did that on april fools day and managed to tick off both fandoms

Soras Teva Gee

2012-05-08, 09:24 AM

Annoyingly they did that on april fools day and managed to tick off both fandoms

Umm.... no where have you been?

Seriously I remember catching an alert by chance on this very board that had a fair number of us totally geeking out and on the spot deciding to stay up and watch for old times sake. And this is a very small forum.

And while I haven't exactly taken the broadest survey I've heard nothing but positive feedback for the whole event with a lot speculation of Toonami reviving and everyone commenting on how incredible that idea is.

(Or am I misinterpreting you somehow?)

Ravens_cry

2012-05-08, 11:59 AM

Too young or too old?
Weird upbringing.

Fjolnir

2012-05-08, 12:32 PM

Umm.... no where have you been?

Seriously I remember catching an alert by chance on this very board that had a fair number of us totally geeking out and on the spot deciding to stay up and watch for old times sake. And this is a very small forum.

And while I haven't exactly taken the broadest survey I've heard nothing but positive feedback for the whole event with a lot speculation of Toonami reviving and everyone commenting on how incredible that idea is.

(Or am I misinterpreting you somehow?)

they did it for a single saturday night; in order to both celebrate april fools day and the 15th anniversary of Toonami taken from the wikipedia entry on Toonami below

April Fools' Day 2012
On midnight of April 1, 2012, just past Toonami's 15th anniversary, Adult Swim, which generally changes its programming for April Fools' Day, began to play The Room (as they had done the past several years).[15] The scene then switched to T.O.M. (in his third incarnation) aboard the Absolution, greeting the viewers while commenting that it is April Fools' Day, before introducing that week's scheduled episode of Bleach. The Toonami-related programming and bumpers continued throughout the night, featuring Dragon Ball Z, Mobile Suit Gundam Wing, Tenchi Muyo! Ryo-Ohki, Outlaw Star, The Big O season 1, YuYu Hakusho, Blue Submarine No. 6, Trigun, Astro Boy, and Gigantor. T.O.M. also presented a review of Mass Effect 3 and promoted the recent DVD releases of the series featured.[16][17]
The following day, Adult Swim posted a message to their Twitter page, simply stating, "Want it back? Let us know. #BringBackToonami".[18] On April 4, Adult Swim followed up this tweet with one stating, "#BringBackToonami We've heard you. Thank you for your passion and interest - stay tuned."[19] On April 8, Adult Swim aired 2 bumpers about the Toonami tweets and answered with "[we're listening]" and "[we're looking into it]".[20]

Eakin

2012-05-08, 01:04 PM

I never got to watch much of Johnny Bravo, but the one episode I'll never forget was the crossover with Scooby Doo. That episode was so quotable and just plain funny. :smallbiggrin:

Velma: "My glasses, I can see without my glasses!"
Bravo: "My glasses, I can't be seen without my glasses!"

I remember that episode! It was awesome!

And frankly all Archer and most of its genre have going for it is being funny,

Usually this is enough for me. I'll admit though that after the first or second time I've seen an Archer episode it holds little allure for me. I enjoy them but they don't hold up.

Also, I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the minds behind the Cartoon Network golden age are now working on Friendship is Magic, which, well, let's just say I didn't pick my avatar randomly

Maxios

2012-05-08, 08:22 PM

This. This was the animation I grew up with. Johnny Bravo, Ed Edd & Eddy, Cow and Chicken, Dexter's Labratory...all of them were awesome in their own ways. In my opinion, Cartoon Network's Golden Age was when they aired these shows.
Now, almost (as in, everything except Young Justice and Green Lantern) everything on Cartoon Network is horrible. I tried to watch some of the shows on there I heard were good from these forums, and disliked them with an intense...dislike.

Dienekes

2012-05-08, 08:33 PM

From what I've seen Archer is And frankly all Archer and most of its genre have going for it is being funny, the stories are broadly just framing devices for the gags. If you don't find them funny they boil out to nothing.

Sure they can make you laugh, but can they make you cry?

Considering no tv show ever has, probably not. And as for the shoddy animation, comedy shows, Venture Bros is one of my favorite things on tv. When it's not taking it's year breaks.

Anyway, I was weird. I grew up in this time of great cartoons and only liked Dexter's Lab. Powerpuff girls? Never saw the appeal. Johnny Bravo? Seemed a guy out looking for girls, which even then bored me as a concept. Ed, Edd, and Eddy? The main characters annoyed me.

Now admittedly I don't watch Cartoon Network (a large part of that is that I don't have it) so if those were considered the greats then I shudder to think what's on now.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-05-08, 08:35 PM

they did it for a single saturday night; in order to both celebrate april fools day and the 15th anniversary of Toonami taken from the wikipedia entry on Toonami below

I. Just. Told. You. I. Was. There.

Serious you don't seem to have read that post I was questioning how you got "tick off both fandoms" because I've heard nothing except that the whole event was made of win and awesome for everyone.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-05-08, 08:58 PM

I missed the re-air of Toonami cause I was in the wrong timezone as everyone else on the board apparently. :smalltongue: ... :smallfrown: So sad. Anyone else still pining for a Samurai Jack movie? Or a Korgoth Series? Or another Symbiotic Titan season?

I'd settle for another traditionally animated Star Wars series by Genndy Tartakovsky. :smallsigh:. I can dream...

Dr.Epic

2012-05-08, 10:18 PM

Dexter's Lab was awesome, until they changed the art style and the show went quickly downhill.

Devonix

2012-05-09, 01:44 AM

I. Just. Told. You. I. Was. There.

Serious you don't seem to have read that post I was questioning how you got "tick off both fandoms" because I've heard nothing except that the whole event was made of win and awesome for everyone.

He thought you were implying that Toonami was back for more than one evening which was what pissed off the toonami fans.

Fan

2012-05-09, 01:44 AM

And now I'm just sad. I thought that was a semi permanent thing. :smallfrown:

Anarion

2012-05-09, 01:54 AM

In Memorium:

Ronin Warriors.

Chokes me up to remember some of these. I miss good cartoons. :smallfrown:

Oh wow. Okay, that whole list was pretty good, but this, just this. I had forgotten about Ronin warriors. I was completely in love with that show for a period of time when I was around 10. I honestly don't remember when I saw the run of it though. The original was 1988-89, which was before my time, but maybe they re-aired it on the 10th anniversary or something. So much nostalgia. I had action figures, dressed as the characters for Halloween, used to play pretend with the kid who lived next door about them, the whole 9 yards. I can't even remember the last time I thought about them though. I feel old now. :smallfrown:

Devonix

2012-05-09, 02:05 AM

And now I'm just sad. I thought that was a semi permanent thing. :smallfrown:

I'ts only been a month if they were planning to see if people cooled down and forgot about toonami this is a good amount of time to wait before filming any new promos for Tom and the rest.

Give it time before losing hope

Mauve Shirt

2012-05-09, 05:52 AM

Did Samurai Jack ever actually finish? I really liked it, but I only ever saw about 5 episodes. Did it get an ending or do we need them to make a movie to finish it?

Avilan the Grey

2012-05-09, 06:02 AM

Ah yes, the old powerpuff girls/dexters lab years were truly the golden age of animation. Oh cartoon network, you used to be so awesome.

Sorry, but no. For me the golden age of animation were the shorts from the 30ies - 50ies. Tex Avery, Disney etc. A level of quality that Cartoon Network could not even dream to touch.

Fan

2012-05-09, 06:25 AM

Sorry, but no. For me the golden age of animation were the shorts from the 30ies - 50ies. Tex Avery, Disney etc. A level of quality that Cartoon Network could not even dream to touch.

I'll just refrain from comments on the early years of disney cartoons and such, and say that I'll agree to disagree with your opinion on older animation and you with mine on semi modern animation.

Avilan the Grey

2012-05-09, 07:06 AM

I'll just refrain from comments on the early years of disney cartoons and such, and say that I'll agree to disagree with your opinion on older animation and you with mine on semi modern animation.

Fair enough :smallsmile:

To me the big difference is that those shorts were primarily made for adults.
Of course I am almost 40 years old... I guess I am just too old for most stuff :smallbiggrin:

DigoDragon

2012-05-09, 07:13 AM

To me the big difference is that those shorts were primarily made for adults.
Of course I am almost 40 years old... I guess I am just too old for most stuff :smallbiggrin:

Too old for most stuff?! NEVER! :smallbiggrin:

Cespenar

2012-05-09, 08:06 AM

I'll raise a glass, but to the Looney Tunes era myself. I'm not that old, but cartoons travel with different speeds through countries.

MCerberus

2012-05-09, 03:26 PM

If we're going to chart some high's and lows in history, I think it would be interesting to peek in on the eras:

and this got long so I'm spoiling

Silver-screen era: Could be seen as the golden-age of animation, despite some... let's say unfortunate things about them. Cartoons had to appeal to adults while enthralling children. So we get Looney Toons, MGM with the HB Tom and Jerry headlining, Disney, the Fleischer Superman cartoons.

The dark age: Getting into TV cartoons had a problem. Namely, they took too long. The major studios were panicking, and then Hannah-Barbara found a giant corner to cut that allowed them to be produced quickly enough (see: why Yogi wears a tie). At first, this didn't turn out badly. We had the Flintstones, Top Cat, Scooby, and the ilk. Then it went wrong. This continued for freaking decades, and how bad it got I just need to point to something: they made 5 different versions of Wacky Races.

The Extreme Era: The 80s and early 90s were a mixed bag. Sure you get things like finally a decent Spiderman, GI Joe, Thundercats, but cartoons are squarely just for children. That means they had draconian censorship and were largely vehicles to shove merch down the collected throats. At least everything was the same kind of bright that the entire pop culture was at the time.

The good times: What this thread is describing. It wasn't just Cartoon Cartoons, it started earlier, and was from a whole lot of sources. Once again we have several studios making good stuff, able to be digested by more than one age group and it was pretty subversive. Fox had the Sonics and started Batman, KidsWB had its lineup produced by Speilberg, Nickelodean started humming along with its... well entire lineup after seeing that people liked Rocko. This was when the Simpsons started owning the prime-time ratings.

Risks were taken, and over in a Turner-owned vehicle for replaying old HB cartoons, we got the Cartoon Cartoons. Aside from Cow & Chicken, which was awful and sank a perfectly good IP with it (I Am Weasel), it was just amazing. Dexter's lab was made by some unknown Russian that had plans to bring action back to action cartoons, Bravo was a delicious satire of the entire culture, amongst others. And pokemon killed it all.

The 2000s: Cheap took over. Everyone saw how you can take an import you don't even have to pay to produce and start a merch landslide with it. Meanwhile, what you can still keep in place you can easily just tweak to stay as a money machine. Toonami was murdered under the weight of forced Naruto and Dragonball reruns. The Cartoon Cartoons just disappeared for the most part to be replaced by early flash cartoons. What remained were turned into zombies, undead abominations horrifying since you recognized their faces. Just look at what happened to Spongebob.

Modern Era: The torch for a while, was carried by a late-night offshoot of Cartoon Network. It had some crude in-house shows, but picked up three important pieces of discarded brilliance: early family guy, Futurama, and Home Movies. They augmented these with animes on Saturday... and outdid the main network for ratings. Fox came around and brought non-Simpsons cartoons back into prime time (but one could say they've been slipping as of late), Adult Swim is home to occasional outbursts of brilliance, and non-stupid animation is starting to slip back.

They're getting creative again too, if you have cartoon network I'd recommend you try: Adventure Time (revels in high-fantasy and geek culture), Regular Show (a 90s sitcom + eldritch horror), and Flapjack (the most terrifying thing since Courage)

Cespenar

2012-05-10, 12:00 AM

Ooh, the 90s. I had forgotten them too. Spiderman, X-men, Batman: TAS, Darkwing Duck, Animaniacs...

Sigh. I had stuff to watch back then.

Aotrs Commander

2012-05-10, 11:16 AM

If we're going to chart some high's and lows in history, I think it would be interesting to peek in on the eras:

and this got long so I'm spoiling
The 2000s: Cheap took over. Everyone saw how you can take an import you don't even have to pay to produce and start a merch landslide with it. Meanwhile, what you can still keep in place you can easily just tweak to stay as a money machine. Toonami was murdered under the weight of forced Naruto and Dragonball reruns. The Cartoon Cartoons just disappeared for the most part to be replaced by early flash cartoons. What remained were turned into zombies, undead abominations horrifying since you recognized their faces. Just look at what happened to Spongebob.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Naruto and it's ilk provided something that was generally lacking since the mid-nineties Marvel shows ended - 22 minute "serious" cartoons. While I love Dexter's Lab and Johnny Bravo, it's a totally different genera to Centurions or Transformers, one that was solely being held aloft by the JLU. Even Pokemon is not the same genera as the Cartoon Cartoons.

And, at least over here, when we had Toonami for a while, and they knew who their demographic was. And then just decided, "screw them, we only want to cheap junk" including (before Toonami ceased to be a channel over here completely) live action-teen sit-coms (at least one of which looked like it was from the Eighties), because those were apparently even better than reruns of their own stuff or localised anime.

So I don't think it's entirely fair to blame anime for CN's failings as a corperation.

And you US chaps should consider yourselves lucky, in terms of what you get on your CN! Over here we got things like Naruto late, and it was shown on Jetix, not CN, and even then only very briefly before cutting out entirely slightly before the Sasuke Retrieval arc. I've watched the majority of Naruto on DVD (and there must be a massive market for it here, since the UK DVD have been coming out steadily for the last few years every two or three months!) Generally, we get stuff later than you, half seasons if at all (I still don't know if Boomerang ever showed that second half of MLP:FiM), not new episodes every week like "proper" TV, but all in a big clump over the week and repeated ad naseum... You guys have it relatively good. (About the only positive is we generally only have the one advert break in the middle.)

I also happen to think Spongebob has improved with time, as I find the early episodes to be of distinctly notably inferior quality.

For that matter, I like flash animation more than traditional animation for non-realistic animations. You may throw things.

Of course, my persective is from someone who grow up in the Eighties, which had a dearth of pretty solid (and some less than solid) "serious" cartoons, something which vanished thereafter, never to return.

Though we are currently getting a few more again now, with the revival of Thundercats and Transformers, plus Ben Ten (in it's various forms) and Generator Rex, both of which are pretty good.

They're getting creative again too, if you have cartoon network I'd recommend you try: Adventure Time (revels in high-fantasy and geek culture), Regular Show (a 90s sitcom + eldritch horror), and Flapjack (the most terrifying thing since Courage)

Oddly enough, none of those remotely appeal to me, despite being a self-confessed cartoon fan. (I watched My Little Pony in the Eighties!) There's just something about the animation style that jars me like the Nickelodoen arlasky-kupo stuff (Rocko, Real Monsters, Rugrats) stuff did (which I disliked) and the humour just doesn't appeal to me at all.

Heck, I think the one and only reason Chowder managed to capture my interest initially was because the texture animation was so hypnotic.

I think - leaving aside the obvious equine in the room! - that of the current crop of "non-serious" cartoons, Fairly Oddparents1 and the Penguins of Madagasgar are the current best (with honourable mention to Phineas and Ferb for rising above what would have been an insiped concept with clever humour and strong-tongue in cheek). Tuff Puppy is okay, but isn't quite to the same standard as it's predessor.

1We're still getting the newest season of FOP, so it totally counts...

Lord Seth

2012-05-10, 11:24 AM

Did Samurai Jack ever actually finish? I really liked it, but I only ever saw about 5 episodes. Did it get an ending or do we need them to make a movie to finish it?No, it didn't get an ending. Though I have to blame that as much on the creative team as on the network, considering that the series never actually went towards an ending. To be honest, I think Samurai Jack is tremendously overrated; to me, at least, it's just Avatar with a less interesting plot, a less interesting world, and less interesting characters.

My favorite original shows on Cartoon Network (that is, not rebroadcasts of older shows or anime) were Codename: Kids Next Door and Megas XLR. Really loved KND's mixture of the episodic and serial.

Aotrs Commander

2012-05-10, 11:32 AM

My favorite original shows on Cartoon Network (that is, not rebroadcasts of older shows or anime) were Codename: Kids Next Door and Megas XLR. Really loved KND's mixture of the episodic and serial.

KND was sheer brilliance. It only improved with time. The last episode is as moving as any I've seen on a cartoon. When it went out, it went out with a BANG, a bigger bang than I think any of the other shows of it's ilk did; heck few cartoons of any era have managed such a satisfying conclusion. If my MLP manages a final finale (in the distant, distant future!) half as grand as that, I will be a very happy Lich.

Megas was also cancelled too soon, which was a shame because it too had a lot of potential.

Samurai Jack was okay in small doses. The emphasis on robot violence and gore was quite hilarious in the pilot episode - talk about getting crap past the radar! - but the constant explosions thereafter lost their charm after a while. The whole "endless quest" thing doesnt last too long without becoming boring, and Jack himself was not a hugely engaging character. I think it badly suffered for not having a wider regular cast.

Dienekes

2012-05-10, 11:43 AM

Ooh, the 90s. I had forgotten them too. Spiderman, X-men, Batman: TAS, Darkwing Duck, Animaniacs...

Sigh. I had stuff to watch back then.

These will always be the best cartoons of all time to me.

MCerberus

2012-05-10, 03:47 PM

KND was sheer brilliance. It only improved with time. The last episode is as moving as any I've seen on a cartoon. When it went out, it went out with a BANG, a bigger bang than I think any of the other shows of it's ilk did; heck few cartoons of any era have managed such a satisfying conclusion. If my MLP manages a final finale (in the distant, distant future!) half as grand as that, I will be a very happy Lich.

Megas was also cancelled too soon, which was a shame because it too had a lot of potential.

Samurai Jack was okay in small doses. The emphasis on robot violence and gore was quite hilarious in the pilot episode - talk about getting crap past the radar! - but the constant explosions thereafter lost their charm after a while. The whole "endless quest" thing doesnt last too long without becoming boring, and Jack himself was not a hugely engaging character. I think it badly suffered for not having a wider regular cast.

Yes
Yes

And the constant baysplosions were part of the censorship thing. They had to explode as another nod to show that they were robots. There were some brilliant episodes though, like the one with the blind archers, the prequel episodes, and pretty much everything that doesn't end 'then Jack fought an army of robots'... other than the end of the 3rd episode.

Zen Monkey

2012-05-10, 05:19 PM

I don't know how many times I've seen Korgoth of Barbaria, and it's still great. They really made the wrong call letting that one slip away.

Ravens_cry

2012-05-10, 05:33 PM

If we're going to chart some high's and lows in history, I think it would be interesting to peek in on the eras:

and this got long so I'm spoiling

Even the Dark Age had its strong moments, such as Rocky and Bullwinkle and Friends, Super Chicken, George of the Jungle, Jay Ward was able to, despite incredibly tiny budgets, create characters and situations that, while drastically different from the sensational cinematic scenarios of the silver screen short subjects, were very amusing in their own right, as were the better Hanna Barbara cartoons.

Anarion

2012-05-10, 05:36 PM

KND was sheer brilliance. It only improved with time. The last episode is as moving as any I've seen on a cartoon. When it went out, it went out with a BANG, a bigger bang than I think any of the other shows of it's ilk did; heck few cartoons of any era have managed such a satisfying conclusion. If my MLP manages a final finale (in the distant, distant future!) half as grand as that, I will be a very happy Lich.

Megas was also cancelled too soon, which was a shame because it too had a lot of potential.

Samurai Jack was okay in small doses. The emphasis on robot violence and gore was quite hilarious in the pilot episode - talk about getting crap past the radar! - but the constant explosions thereafter lost their charm after a while. The whole "endless quest" thing doesnt last too long without becoming boring, and Jack himself was not a hugely engaging character. I think it badly suffered for not having a wider regular cast.

Ah yes, KND was spectacular. They had a really good concept there combined with strong characters who were consistent and grew between episodes.

I loved Megas as well, but I think they probably made the right call in cancelling that one. If they let everyone reach the point of competence, it would have been fairly bland giant mecha stuff, but there's only so many times you can do "Coop has no idea what he's doing but saves the day amidst large-scale property damage" before it gets old.

Ravens_cry

2012-05-10, 06:26 PM

I haven't seen all the episodes, but of what I have seen, I really liked Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends. I guess I just really dug the concept of imaginary friends been real to everyone, while still created by children, and the quirky, yet lovable, characters.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-05-10, 08:07 PM

And the constant baysplosions were part of the censorship thing. They had to explode as another nod to show that they were robots. There were some brilliant episodes though, like the one with the blind archers, the prequel episodes, and pretty much everything that doesn't end 'then Jack fought an army of robots'... other than the end of the 3rd episode.

There was an episode of Jack where the story was from the robot's point of view...
Where one robot was good, even noble, and only went after Jack because Aku was holding his pet hostage. And in the end, as you see Jack cut the poor guy down you can't help but be like, "You bastard!".

THAT was why I loved Jack and I never felt it was overrated. It had atmosphere, a real presence that captured an old action movie quality. Supposedly there's a movie deal that's been in the works, but who knows if it'll see the light of day.

Lord Seth

2012-05-10, 08:34 PM

Samurai Jack was okay in small doses. The emphasis on robot violence and gore was quite hilarious in the pilot episode - talk about getting crap past the radar! - but the constant explosions thereafter lost their charm after a while. The whole "endless quest" thing doesnt last too long without becoming boring, and Jack himself was not a hugely engaging character. I think it badly suffered for not having a wider regular cast.Yeah, absolutely. The problem is the show just doesn't have much going for it.

Characters? There's only one protagonist in the series, Jack, and he's pretty generic and boring. He has no character development at all.

Plot? What plot? Jack is no closer to his goal in the final episode than he was in the first.

The setting? It's basically a mishmash of whatever the writers think would be interesting for that episode rather than any coherent whole.

It wasn't all bad. Some of the individual episodes were fairly strong, but that can only hold the series for so long until the aforementioned problems catch up to it. If it had been a miniseries--maybe 13 or 20 episodes--I think it would've worked much better because while it wouldn't have eliminated the problems of the series, it would've made them less noticeable, plus it would've guaranteed an ending.

Pokonic

2012-05-10, 09:46 PM

Well, being a person who has seen the varying shows of the 2000+ years but never realy grew up on them, I generaly group CN's better shows into two groups: Plot-based and Zany-based.

In the first corner, we have such shows as the ever lovely KND. Not only was it funny, it had a bloody myth arc. As the good Lich says, it realy built on what it already did and did greater, more amusing things with it. Every time you think something would only appear in a one-off episode, a season later it turned out that the guy who was only mildy strange was a spy and that that one item they used turns out to be the next main thing the bad guys uses, ect.

Another would be Teen Titans. Now, you might say " Well, it was only realy plot-heavy in that one season with Trigon!" and call it a day, but it realy never left a plot point unturned until it got to it's natural conclusion.

And then comes the Zany, or perhapes a better term the Crazy shows of CN. The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, Flapjack, Megas: people watch them not because you expect a actual long-running plot with it's own in-jokes and such, but because you wish to watch a evil little girl bully death itself around or see a guy in a giant robot do exactly what a car-loving big fun-type person would do with it.

Borderline in this catagory is Regular Show and Chowder, because while they certently fit the catagory there quality is up for debate ( I love Chowder for everything I had back in the day, but looking back on it a few years later I can see why I did, certently, but the writers got lazy on the last season. Regular Show, ehh, it strikes me as something that would fit better if they moved it down into a high AM timeslot, if you know what I mean). Gumball might fit, but I have never actualy seen a episode.

I love Adventure Time, however. Partly because of it's utter halarity, but also because they (the writers) managed to create a show which there are six to eight different individual plot lines going on at any one time, and can juggle the entire thing on a platform of logic and continuity. Hence, it actualy fits in both catagories.

MCerberus

2012-05-10, 11:42 PM

Well defending Regular show, it's a wonderful vehicle for lampooning the 80s/90s, especially the sitcoms. Then they take everything ridiculous about the vaguely-familiar plotlines and ramps it up until something goes terribly wrong.

That and Mark Hamil voices one of the characters, and his VA is always brilliant. And really, what other show would play 'Holding on for a Hero' during a training montage eventually leading to a Last Crusade parody?

TheLaughingMan

2012-05-11, 10:23 PM

Ah, I miss KND. It's one of the few shows I can think of to use Cerebus Syndrome to great effect.

Oh, and, uh....

THE DEFENSE WILL STATE ITS CASE

Yeah, absolutely. The problem is the show just doesn't have much going for it.

Characters? There's only one protagonist in the series, Jack, and he's pretty 1. generic and 2. boring. He has no character development at all.

1. seems, at least in my eyes, a conscious choice on the part of the writers, as he is both modeled as an archtypical samurai and his lack of character lends itself to an 'everyman' nature. Also...
2. is subjective. Characters like The Legend of Zelda's Link and Old-School Mickey Mouse may be generic, but that is not to say they are boring to watch. The audience comes to watch the plots, and and the main characters are windows into them. Do they make for excellent characters? Probably not for most, but that's because they're not meant to be. It takes away from the main attraction.

Also, you've managed to forget The Scotsman and X9 in your list of protagonists.

Plot? What plot? Jack is no closer to his goal in the final episode than he was in the first.

It's an episodic show. The main plot is a frame-story, on which many smaller plots take place. It's more a series of vignettes than any huge mega story arc.

The setting? It's basically a mishmash of whatever the writers think would be interesting for that episode rather than any coherent whole.

It's a show about a samurai and occasionally a Scotsman fighting robots and demons in the post-apocalypse, in addition to what I just explained above. What precisely were you expecting? I mean that honestly, as that rather baffles me.

THE DEFENSE RESTS

(replies in bold, on the off chance you hadn't caught on by now)

If you have grievances with the show, by all means express them. But it seems to me that you're judging the show on a structure it simply does not possess.

Lord Seth

2012-05-11, 11:44 PM

(replies in bold, on the off chance you hadn't caught on by now)Is there any particular reason why you could not simply have quoted them separately? It makes it more annoying to respond to your posts, as the quote button does not quote already-quoted material.

Anyway...

1. seems, at least in my eyes, a conscious choice on the part of the writers, as he is both modeled as an archtypical samurai and his lack of character lends itself to an 'everyman' nature.It still seems a poor choice.
2. is subjective. Characters like The Legend of Zelda's Link and Old-School Mickey Mouse may be generic, but that is not to say they are boring to watch. The audience comes to watch the plots, and and the main characters are windows into them. Do they make for excellent characters? Probably not for most, but that's because they're not meant to be. It takes away from the main attraction.Legend of Zelda is a videogame, an entirely different medium, so that's a dubious example at best. Old-school Mickey Mouse was, if memory serves, distributed in movie theaters in shorts rather than what we'd now think of as a full-length cartoon. Again, a very different medium than a half-hour TV series, particularly one that had a big setup and a goal.

Also, you've managed to forget The Scotsman and X9 in your list of protagonists.The Scotsman is at best a recurring character. X9 appeared in only one episode. Those are not protagonists.

It's an episodic show. The main plot is a frame-story, on which many smaller plots take place. It's more a series of vignettes than any huge mega story arc.Which can hold itself together for a time--and it did for a while--but it really fell apart after a while when it became apparent no progress was ever being made and nothing ever changed or there even being any characters I cared enough about to keep watching.

It's a show about a samurai and occasionally a Scotsman fighting robots and demons in the post-apocalypse, in addition to what I just explained above. What precisely were you expecting? I mean that honestly, as that rather baffles me.Something more akin to Avatar's first season. Them having a goal and actually going towards that goal. Even discounting the fact that they did reach that goal (the North Pole) on Avatar, there was a genuine feeling throughout the season they were getting closer. That was what immediately leapt out at me when I first watched the series: "This is what Samurai Jack should have been."

If the show wanted to just be an Samurai guy from the past having fun adventures in some weird future, then I have to ask...why did they make the goal such a major theme of the show? Why did they mention that in the intro of every episode? Why did they stress the goal of getting back to the past in the tune that played during the credits of each episode? It'd be like if they setup Superman: The Animated Series to have Superman want to go back in time and save Krypton, but then never went anywhere with that but still reminded you every episode twice about it.

And that's the root problem of Samurai Jack. There seems so little to it. Some of the plots were good, but that could only hold it for so long before its weaknesses became apparent and, well, the plots started being good at a lower regularity. Which is why I keep saying it should have been a miniseries: It could let them ditch the weaker episodes and quit before it stuck around too long.

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-05-12, 02:40 AM

And that's the root problem of Samurai Jack. There seems so little to it. Some of the plots were good, but that could only hold it for so long before its weaknesses became apparent and, well, the plots started being good at a lower regularity. Which is why I keep saying it should have been a miniseries: It could let them ditch the weaker episodes and quit before it stuck around too long.

You may be right about it being better as a mini-series, but for myself I loved the episodic nature of the show, and even the worse episodes were miles more entertaining than most anything else on television in the same timeslot. And I seem to recall that the Late-Night Uncensored Toonami started running right after Jack for a while, so double reason for me tuning in.

Also, cuz I'm waxing nostalgic:
Toonami Promo: Advanced Robotics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0NJlTT1nRA)
Toonami Promo: Mad Rhetoric (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_w9b3Tl9EA&feature=related)
Toonami: Moltar on Heroes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfdlIQppAEI&feature=related)

Kurgan

2012-05-12, 05:41 AM

My fondest moments with cartoon network involves watching ReBoot as a child. Such a great show, to the extent that I bought the dvds as soon as they got out.

Other than that, I never really got into much on the channel. It is where I discovered Futurama, and the odd episode of Adventure Time is always fun, but that is really my entire experience with the channel.

On a side note, I really need to watch through all of Adventure Time some day, that show is solid gold.

Aotrs Commander

2012-05-13, 02:17 PM

Speaking or older cartoons, and divering slightly for a moment, I finally got around to starting to watch my DVD of volume 2 of MASK.

Ye gods that show is hilariously stupid. Even by 1980s cartoon standards.

Before I got the DVDs of the show, my memories were of the first handful of episodes (which while, not great, at least had show pretty good vehicle fight sequences, where the vehicles got damaged) and of a video-movie of a compliation of three episodes of the "season 2" of the show (which was also pretty good, wall-top-wall vehicle combat, and a blessed lack of Scott Trakker...)

But out of all the 1980s cartoons, I think MASK has aged the worst, as it has so many plot holes it's unbelievable, and the characters are so wooden (and the voice actors aren't too much better...) Continuity, what's that...? MASK is about the closest to being the boy's mirror of that dreadful level of "little girl's TV" that MLP:FiM has recently avoided, with the same level of "ah, it's for kids, they won't notice the stupidity and utter lack of effort or research, despite the fact we're dealing with international or histroical things, we don't need to use anything more deep than popular culture mythology or perceptions of places!" Thus the utterly unbelievable poor foreign steriotypes (that's "everyone who's not American" though "not-white" cultures have it marginally worse), to the utter mind-staggering stupidity of the villains...

Miles Mayhem seems to spend his time coming up with more and more amzingly retarded schemes involving stealing money or treasure (seriously, for a show about vehicular combat, there's more historical artefacts that in the entire Indiana Jones and Tomb Radier franchises put together...) The last episode is illustrive, where in the scheme was to...

Train ravens to attack the Beefeaters at the Tower of London to steal the crown jewels. After first gaining entry blowing the wall in with lasers!

I mean, Sly Rax, probably the all-time winner of Most Incompetant Henchman ever, carries round a mask device that apparently creates and fires whacking great darts out of no-where. It puts Mass Effect's microfabrication tools to shame. And yet, with that sort of technology to hand, VENOM's plans include using EMP devices (that can apparently disable electronics and active internal combustion engines, but not vacuum tubes, the hell?) and using it as part of a plan to... Break into the International Safe Building to steal a code book with all the safe combinations for all the safes in America.

(Compare this to the slightly later comtemporary Centurions, where Doc Terror's schemes involve forcibly turning everyone in the world into his cyborg minons (which is, by the way, in the series canon, irreversable...))

The mind boggles.

(Also, Matt Trakker is the worse father EVER. The man has enough money to field his own vigilanty paramilitary organisation, but not enough to pay a baby sitter to deal with his spoiled, disobediant brat of a son, whom he never punishes, even when said brat repeatedly puts himself and other people in danger with his shenaigans...)

It really is into the so bad is hilarious territory.

PrometheusMFD

2012-05-13, 10:47 PM

Avilan the Grey

2012-05-13, 11:17 PM

Wow. My random post based on an episode of a show I quote way to often (to the point that it makes up part of my sig) has spawned an intense discussion on the high points of animation.

Also, the late 1980's until the mid 2000's is considered the Renaissance of animation.

By whom, and what examples? Keep in mind that in Sweden, especially in the 80ies, we only got the toys, not the animation that went with it (we only had two TV channels until the 1990ies).

PrometheusMFD

2012-05-14, 07:15 AM

By whom, and what examples? Keep in mind that in Sweden, especially in the 80ies, we only got the toys, not the animation that went with it (we only had two TV channels until the 1990ies).

True, I am going from a purely Amercian perspective (mainly because that's pretty much where everyone I've discussed this with lives) so other places would have a different timeline of when animation hit its peaks based on what was created and what was imported.

Scowling Dragon

2012-05-15, 02:14 PM

KND was one of the best Stylized shows ever. Thier movie with the zombie apocalypse was great. I loved the stylized elder setting. Sort of like industrial era england. I also liked the idea of hope as the most powerful thing ever.

Karoht

2012-05-15, 04:41 PM

Loved Animaniacs to death. Bob Paulson came to my town not long ago, still able to sing 'the nations of the world' song.
We then asked him to encore with 'all the words in the english dictionary' but he did gracefully decline.

The Real Ghostbusters. First season was more dark and grim and full of old school legends and tales.
Second season improved the animation (argueably), featured more tech and brought in characters from the second film. Still good, but for different reasons.
Both seasons made me want to be a Ghostbuster when I grew up.
My mom insists that I was depressed for a month when I found out that they cancelled it. I don't remember, but I'm inclined to believe it.

And I still get goosebumps every time I hear the the words...
"You got the touch!"
This reference should not require explanation.

Aotrs Commander

2012-05-15, 05:17 PM

The Real Ghostbusters. First season was more dark and grim and full of old school legends and tales.
Second season improved the animation (argueably), featured more tech and brought in characters from the second film. Still good, but for different reasons.
Both seasons made me want to be a Ghostbuster when I grew up.
My mom insists that I was depressed for a month when I found out that they cancelled it. I don't remember, but I'm inclined to believe it.

I'm awaiting my second volume of the season of that now. (I don't know as I shall bother with going much further, what with the changing voice cast and lack of Michel J Babylon5guy writing it.)

One of the early episodes I remember me and my mate watched once, and it scared the crap out of us. (Mrs [sombody's] Neighbourhood it was called, I think.) Watching again as an adult I was like, "yeah, okay that's sorta mildy scary, I guess but I don't see what was so-" *Venkman gets possessed* "-unholy fracking crap on a stick! Now I remember!"

Good stuff, and it actually hasn't dated as badly as some of it's contemporaties *cough*MASK*cough*.

Incidently, I think the absolute prise of the era has to go to Centurions, as that, out of all the cartoons of the eighties - yes, even Transformers - has been the only one that was better than I remembered. Yes, Centurions was very much the action-movie of the set; characterisation wasn't anything to speak of - but what it was was well-thought out. Little things, like in one episode, Ace McCloud needed to chase a fast missile, so they used his space-flight weapon system (Orbital Interceptor), because, obviously, being capable of orbital flight, it was the fastest. The fact that the Centurions got hurt, occasionally; not even as part of the main plot, just in the course of their figthing. Not often, but enough that you felt that there was definately a sense of mortality, as occasionally even Doom Drone Strafers could get lucky!
And while it did have the traditional "cute animal sidekick" (sic), they were actual (genetically slightly enhanced) animals, and they didn't have plot armour either - sometimes they got hurt, which is frankly kind of astounding!

Tragically, there has been no official release, I'm not even sure who owns the right anymore (I picked up an unofficial set off ebay, which I shall replace as and when a proper version turns up.) Edit: Apparently, a google search tells me there has been a release of the first five episodes recently. Get back to me, DVD people, when you release a proper set!

Karoht

2012-05-16, 08:59 AM

Movie Bob did a segment on an old show called "Brave Starr" over on The Escapist

If anyone here follows 'The Trenches' webcomic whatsoever, this is must see material, as it is likely the basis for the 'Law Starr' concept that the comic's current arc centers on.

To be brief, it was one of the last Funmation shows to be made before Loreal (yes, the shampoo people) bought up the company. I guess they were just so jealous of He-Man and She-Ra's hair that they just had to ruin it for everyone. :smalltongue:

TheEmerged

2012-05-18, 11:46 AM

Speaking or older cartoons, and divering slightly for a moment, I finally got around to starting to watch my DVD of volume 2 of MASK.

Ye gods that show is hilariously stupid. Even by 1980s cartoon standards... But out of all the 1980s cartoons, I think MASK has aged the worst... It really is into the so bad is hilarious territory.

I'll see your MASK and raise you a Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors. Show was eye-bleedingly bad back then. It was terribly obvious the writer had wanted to create a different show but got this toy commercial foisted off on him. So you've got this cartoon about a prince with a magic ring that's trying to find his father so they can reunite the magic root that will destroy the plant monsters that transform into fast moving battle tanks... and his companions are a wizard, a knee-high robot knight with a lance, a little girl who can talk to plants and rides a flying fish, and a Han Solo one-off. They go from planet to planet on a spaceship that looks like a frigate and use their own fast-moving battle tanks. Oh, and their gun-like weapons are inferior to their chainsaws, drills, and claws on the tanks.

I'm not making this up.

The worst thing of all? It had one of the best cartoon themes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14C9hySGfWw) of the era, and that's saying something. This being the 80's, there were kids in the neighborhood that used their tape recorders to copy it and then play it without having to watch the show.

==================================

I'm a slightly older sort, so I grew up watching syndicated Tom & Jerry and Star Blazers. I try to forget how horrible the Hanna Barbara cartoons of the era were :smallredface: It's amazing how much more... ribald the old T&J cartoons were than I remembered them, especially the Tex Avery\Droopy stuff. I remembered them as being crazier than modern stuff but... not to the extent it was.

There were some hidden gems amongst the 80's. BraveStarr for example had a singularly powerful anti-drug episode in which something unheard of back then happened -- the kid who got hooked *died* from the drugs. Not a big deal today, I know, but it was shocking back then.

Another one was the Galaxy Rangers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDQhoxzGvRk). Again, it had particularly memorable theme music (both the opening & closing credits). The content was passable at times -- cowboys in space was not particularly unique even back then. On the other hand they took their concept and ran with it and, most importantly, were no more afraid to go epic than they were to go silly (they actually worked the theme song into the plot of an episode (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sso3h0xMJA)).

There was another obscure show with a great theme called Spiral Zone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvHxhUyPiq4), but it comes with a major cavaet. The show started out high-quality and taking itself somewhat seriously, but the production values & writing quality dropped quickly. It was obvious even at the time they were milking every frame of animation to reuse it as often as possible. It was also somewhat interesting because it started *after* the bad guy had nearly conquered the world, and most of the early episdoes played heavily on the concept of the phyric victory.

EDIT: Links added.

Karoht

2012-05-18, 12:44 PM

Sabre Rider and the Star Sherrifs!
Totally better than Brave Starr.
I originally thought that this was what Law Starr was ripping off.

Aotrs Commander

2012-05-18, 01:23 PM

I'll see your MASK and raise you a Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors. Show was eye-bleedingly bad back then. It was terribly obvious the writer had wanted to create a different show but got this toy commercial foisted off on him. So you've got this cartoon about a prince with a magic ring that's trying to find his father so they can reunite the magic root that will destroy the plant monsters that transform into fast moving battle tanks... and his companions are a wizard, a knee-high robot knight with a lance, a little girl who can talk to plants and rides a flying fish, and a Han Solo one-off. They go from planet to planet on a spaceship that looks like a frigate and use their own fast-moving battle tanks. Oh, and their gun-like weapons are inferior to their chainsaws, drills, and claws on the tanks.

I'm not making this up.

The worst thing of all? It had one of the best cartoon themes of the era, and that's saying something. This being the 80's, there were kids in the neighborhood that used their tape recorders to copy it and then play it without having to watch the show. I'll try to remember to add a link here later (youtube = verboten at work).

I also have the first half of that on DVD.

It wasn't nearly so mindless as MASK. (It was written by Michel J Babylon5Guy, as a matter of fact...) It was unusual in that it did have a plot arc. While, yes, it hadn't held up quite so well on viewing later, it was still somewhat above MASK in terms of plot, character and story. (In that it actually had them...) It was kind silly in concept, at least the execution was largely better. Also, the monster minds at least were half-way credible villains (in that at least they had some measure of threat, unlike Miles Mayhem, who was just a buffoon.)

And Flora and Oon were still way less annoying than Scott Trakker and T-Bob, who I think are the paragons of Child Characters Nobody Likes, No, Not Even The Children.

Yes, Eighties cartoon theme tunes were almost universally awesome.

Of course, this is largely because the same guy wrote most of them! (http://www.shukilevy.com/Shuki_Levy_Online/Music_Compositions.html) (Well into the ninties, including stuff like Power Rangers - whatever you think of that show, you have to admit the theme song rocked!)

I think Transformers, Thundercats, TMNT and Centurions are about the only ones he didn't..!

Ninjadeadbeard

2012-05-18, 04:58 PM

Yes, Eighties cartoon theme tunes were almost universally awesome.

Yes well, I think these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gc6V5O4knU&feature=related)have them beat, my lichified friend.

Aotrs Commander

2012-05-18, 05:31 PM

Yes well, I think these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gc6V5O4knU&feature=related)have them beat, my lichified friend.

Eh. Milage varies. The nineties ones had some good stuff (see aforemention Shuki Levi) and a fair bit of the stuff that was fairly forgettable. And stuff like the WB looney tunes stuff, which was good, but in a different way.

TheEmerged

2012-05-18, 05:55 PM

Sabre Rider and the Star Sherrifs!
Totally better than Brave Starr.

Heh, funny story about that. For years, I tried to track down that series and couldn't find anything. Then I discovered I had misremembered the name as Sable Rider... See, Sabre Rider's costume was black...

Overall, Sabre Rider was the better series. But I don't remember anything on Sabre Rider that compared to That One Episode of BraveStarr.

And yes, the corelation of Shuki Levy to Awesome Cartoon Theme is mangificent. He's one of those people that doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves, IMO.

Lord Seth

2012-05-18, 07:04 PM

Of course, this is largely because the same guy wrote most of them! (http://www.shukilevy.com/Shuki_Levy_Online/Music_Compositions.html) (Well into the ninties, including stuff like Power Rangers - whatever you think of that show, you have to admit the theme song rocked!)Shuky Levy didn't write the Power Rangers theme (at least not the original), that was Ron Wasserman.

Soras Teva Gee

2012-05-18, 08:32 PM

Yes well, I think these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gc6V5O4knU&feature=related)have them beat, my lichified friend.

Nah the Lich is right here. The 90s did have plenty of good themes no mistake... but in the 80s the theme was ALWAYS the best part of the show. And at least four steps up in animation because they spent about half the budget on it. Most 90s ones are more like AMVs of themselves.

That said the tippy-top best of the 90s well exceeds the 80s. I bet you didn't even notice as a kid how B:TAS never shows its name, it doesn't have to point out its Batman. You know it with every fibre of your being.

wadledo

2012-05-18, 09:09 PM

Oh gods and now the things from CtCD are going to be creeping up on me all night.

Aotrs Commander

2012-05-22, 09:32 AM

*skullpalm*

I...

MASK...

It... it keeps getting stupider and stupider!

Leaving aside the dreadful racial steriotypes (which refreshingly, it manages to steriotype everyone that's not American in the most innane, terribly-accented way possible...) and spending half the episode focussing on Scott and T-Bob (seriously, Trakker summons the MASK team, and we then just cut away to Scott and T-Bob's misadventures...), the plots just get more and more stupid.

Like Mayhem's plan to steal the space shuttle, which would be a threat to international security because... Um... Well... Yeah, I got nothing. (Really, they were calling it a flying fortress or something. What the heck were they going to do with the space shuttle, seriously?! Also, nice of Trakker (in a fever, being flown around by T-Bob...) to stop them stealing the shuttle by shooting down the shuttle and all it's tankers over the Everglades. Yeah, leaving aside the amazing fact it didn't just explode, there's not going to be an environmental disater or anything, is there?)

Or just to find ancient lost gold (the number lost treasures that abound in MASK world makes you wonder how there's any gold left in the world.) Heck, gold can't even be worth that much when wracked up against the money VENOM must sink in building and repairing all their vehicles...

I mean, the focus on the child character doesn't even make sense, since I'm not aware they ever sold any toys of them, and certainly you'd have thought that a focus on the vehicles that makes the toyline would be more sensible in a show based on the toyline!

And the voice acting is mostly awful... The only ones who seems not to be phoning it in is Miles Mayhem and Vanessa Warfield, and only then because they're being a bit hammy...

Now, I've watched a good number of the 1980s cartoon shows in recent years, but the sheer level of Stupid in MASK from even the most cursory look (yesterday had the gem of VENOM stealing all the sailcloths in town in Iceland or somewhere to sew them together to make a balloon filled with geothermal steam (?!) to somehow lift the town to get access to the gold left in the viking port buried below... Physics do not work that way!)

It is admittedly, hilarious in it's stupidity, but the Scott and T-Bob sections are getting longer and longer and more and more uninteresting.

Honestly, someone ought to do Matt Trakker. That child is always disobedient, he never seems to attend school (or even get any kind of home schooling for that matter). And yet Trakker, who seems to have more money than Bruce Wayne and Tony Stark combined, has never thought to, I dunno hire a child-minder to make sure the little brat stays put instead of getting everyone in danger...

I... Just...

Ye gods, I can't wait to get to the race episodes at the back end of the show, at least they had actual solid vehicular combat it them!

Yeah, sorry, I just needed to vent. Honestly, that show desparately needs a serious riffing, it's so unbeliveable...