What are the Consequences for a Welching Devil?

[ondonaflash]

One of my campaigns is set in a city, part of which belongs to a legion of devils. The devils have free access to the locals and wander the city openly, though their authority and unrestrained power only extends to their specific part of the city.

Needless to say they make a lot of pacts with the inhabitants of the city, usually purchasing favors or services, rather than obtusely buying souls outright (Soft sell rather than hard). Their contracts are usually rather byzantine and naturally always have some fairly ugly clauses, and when a mortal welches on a deal they may find themselves hunted by Inevitables or forcibly bound into the Devil's servitude.

Which brings me to the other side of the coin: Devil's take the idea of favors, obligations, and contracts very seriously and cannot allow themselves to owe a debt of obligation to a mortal. They absolutely cannot find themselves in breach of contract or else... something.

I was hoping to tap into the collective consciousness of GITP and see if I couldn't drum up a few ideas for what should happen to a Devil who welches on a deal.

[Nyes the Dark]

*They lose all power and become, effectively, unusually frail mortals.

*They are banished to their plane, which just so happens to be painful, permanent, and punishable (for devils) by torture/death

*Karma-They are bound into eternal servitude of the being who'se contact they broke.

*They instantly die, simple but effective

[TheStranger]

That depends - are the contracts just magically enforced, or does somebody have to do something to enforce them? Several possibilities either way, but figuring out what entity is responsible for enforcement will go a long way towards figuring out how the contracts are enforced.

My preferred mechanism: the contracts are a lot like real-world contracts, in that the party harmed by the breach is responsible for doing something about it. Of course, the contracts have lots of restrictions on how an aggrieved mortal can enforce the contract (Petitions will be heard by the devil Ulnagath on the second Tuesday after the full moon. No, not that moon, the one on the 83rd layer of the Abyss). Luckily, rival devils watch each other, so if one breaks a contract, another one will helpfully let the mortal know what to do about it. In fact, they'll gladly walk the mortal through the process... in exchange for a small favor.

Now, this should certainly be bad news for the devil that breached the original contract. It doesn't really matter how, as long as it gives the devil incentive to hold up its end of the deal; the punishment is likely to happen offscreen anyway. The thing I like about this setup, and what makes it really diabolical, is that the game is rigged against the mortals; even if they win, they just end up in hock to another devil anyway. IMO, that's how any devil worth the name would set things up.

[Winds]

I'm assuming this is 'normal' D&D devils...You'll almost never see a devil break a contract they set forward. There will be fine print galore, but a devil are lawful outsiders, so intentionally breaking a contract is usually just not gonna happen.


That said, standard devils are all about opportunities to corrupt. Banishment from the city is a possible punishment, since it deprives them of the chance to do the one thing that matters to them. In extreme cases, they may be demoted into a lesser devil form as in the Fiend Folio: Nine Hells book. There's also the gulthir from Monster Manual V-an offending devil could be fed to them or made one themselves as punishment.

[JBento]

I'm not sure standard D&D Devils CAN welch on a deal.

Outsiders don't have alignments in the same way that mortals do - Outsiders are embodiments of their alignment, and Devils are ALL about Law.

Should you decide that a Devil DOES welch on a deal, however, Inevitables are the least of his worries. Because every other Devil is going to see the stray as an abomination and a non-conformist and, well...

Like I said, Inevitables are going to be the least of his worries. Devils (as beings of Law and tradition) aren't very innovative, but they've been having a hand at inflicting painful death for a VERY long time...

[ondonaflash]

I definitely like the idea that a Devil is compelled by his very nature to follow through on any pact made. I was hoping the consequences for failing to do so might be somewhat more metaphysical but equally significant. Demotion and Eternal Stigma seem like they'd be natural consequences of such an action, but I think I'd like to heap on something a little bit more.

[hamishspence]

While Law is normally associated with truth, some devils lie a lot "Lord of the Flies! Lord of the Lies! Baalzebul!" (BoVD Disciple of Baalzebul quote).

[tahu88810]

I definitely like the idea that a Devil is compelled by his very nature to follow through on any pact made. I was hoping the consequences for failing to do so might be somewhat more metaphysical but equally significant. Demotion and Eternal Stigma seem like they'd be natural consequences of such an action, but I think I'd like to heap on something a little bit more.

The demotion in question could be supernatural. Their very nature as beings of Law has been defiled, and so they shift into a weaker form based on the severity of the breach, going so far as to potentially turn them into whatever-the-mindless-peons-are-called (I can't remember at the moment, and I don't have my books on hand) or even, once weak enough, outright destroying them or returning them to their mortal plane.

Or, perhaps, they are bound by a geas to serve whoever they broke the deal with for an amount of time determined by the contract set forth. Perhaps after the geas has been fulfilled, they are then demoted anyways since that part is less about the contract and more about their very identity as a being.

[Analytica]

Presumably each contract will have clauses on what happens if either part breaks it, including specifying who, or what, becomes empowered to punish transgressors. I am thinking there may be a standard variant stating that, should the devil party fail to meet its obligations, it becomes fair game for the depredations of other devils. That is, any other hellish lord than the devil's own patron, who previously stayed away due to mutual nonaggression pacts with that patron, may now swoop in and do whatever they want.

[QuidEst]

Hmm. I'm always of stuff that has a faint whiff of poetic justice. Options include-

• All the nasty clauses laid out for the other person take full effect on the devil, in full spirit of the law, not merely letter. (That is to say, no loopholes by specifying service to a particular individual, taking advantages of things that would harm a person but not a devil, etc.)

• Breach of contract means that the devil is compelled to carry out whatever action was specified on his part to the best of his ability. Not until it's completed, but forever. The result is humiliating for other devils, as this can result in a devil handing out power to mortal after mortal until he's sapped of all his strength, or protecting generations of a particular family line. Naturally, they would seek to destroy the offender to save face and protect their contracts. Also makes deals a little more tempting- if the devil does welch, you get whatever you bargained for and more.

• They become a demon. Not a good thing to be in that part of town.

• Bit of refluff on a typical genie- perhaps they're bound to some object owned by the person, and forced to grant the requests of whoever owns it. (Standard three per person.) Minor technical slip-ups leave them with plenty of room to twist meanings and grant the wish harmfully, while more severe breaches of contract leave them increasingly bound to the spirit of the wish. (A willful breach of contract, if such a thing were possible, or if they foolishly signed contracts that left them no choice but to defy the letter of one or the other, would result in them being bound to fill the wish in the best manner they could manage.) The original signer has an absolute claim on the object- no devil can take it from him even by a tricky contract. Any owner after that is taking a significant risk, as the devils are sure to try and reclaim it so as to destroy it. What I like about this is that it gives people a huge incentive to sign these contracts, and try to work in sneaky clauses and all that. Signing away your soul for a task you're sure is impossible- what could possibly go wrong (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SchmuckBait)?

In general, being compelled to follow the spirit of things is about the worst thing that could happen to them, since their whole business is in offering things that look much better than they are. If you can make use of that, you'll probably get a nice effect over all.

[Alleran]

There was an episode in the current season of the Supernatural TV series that featured a demon who was making deals and then getting another demon to cause accidents for the victim, consigning them to Hell early.

Crowley (the King of Hell) was not impressed. In his words, they have to stick to the agreement, because if word gets around that they're not keeping their end of the bargain, then nobody will deal with them. They're not Wall Street - they have something called integrity.

He proceeded to take the demon for punishment, and tore up all the falsified deals that the offender had made.

I like to use it or something similar to it as the reason why devils in-game will stick to their bargain. It may be a very literal bargain and they'll do what they can to get through loopholes like poor wording, but they won't actually break the rules.

[ondonaflash]

Okay, so I think I've decided that what the consequences will be. A devil who, for whatever reason, cannot complete the terms or conditions laid out in a given bargain, contract, deal, or arrangement will be forced to forsake his payment to the individual with whom the bargain was struck (Hereafter referred to as the signatory).

If a devil is incapable of forsaking payment for whatever reason he finds himself owing obligation to the Signatory no less than equal to the service performed or price paid.

Furthermore the act of breaking faith is harmful to a Devil's essence. They forfeit a measure of their metaphysical essence or strength. This raw energy gets transferred to the Signatory. This is not a bargain, nor is it within control of either party, this is the universe redressing the balance. The energy is not infernal in nature. Merely raw power. The more powerful the devil, the greater the pact, the more energy transferred. This can have the result of reducing a Devil to a lower state.

In the event of the irrevocable death of the Signatory this obligation, if unfulfilled, gets passed on to their first issue. The power does not. The signatory carries that energy with them into the afterlife.


Snip

I saw that episode. I like it, but as exemplars I feel that devils should be compelled by their inherent nature to follow through (the letter of the deal) in absolute terms. A Devil will always follow through unless some outside force greater than themselves prevents them from doing so.

[thegurullamen]

A welching devil loses all of his wealth gained through any and all deals ever made to the harmed party. If the amount lost isn't enough recompense (as determined by an absurd, byzantine process only thoroughly outlined across eighty-seven volumes on widely different levels of Hell [and six in Mechanus]), the devil is considered owned by aforementioned party until services rendered equal the lost assets (determined by an even more arcane and poorly-documented process held in the vault of a dead vampire king on a swampy plane sealed off by Inevitables years ago). Should the aggrieved party overdraft the services of the indentured devil, summons to the courts of the middle layers of the Abyss are likely, but for specific circumstances, witnesses to the original contract can act as mediators on these disputes. Rarely does the process end in any way other than the reinstatement of the previous contract with worse terms for the original signer and a hefty bonus for the witness/presiding judge.

Or the devil is shackled by chains forged on Mechanus and forced to work as court clerks for the most impossible-to-understand bureaucracies available to the devil nobles until they've been determined to be capable of upholding their own laws once again.

[QuidEst]

-snip-

I like it. It's a nice, clean solution. The only problem I can see is that the devil is in debt at least equal to what was owed to the signatory, something that could not be completed. Only now, the signatory has a (potentially sizable) portion of their power. Moreover, they may have other contracts made based on their former power, which now can't be fulfilled. Looks like a slippery debt slope to me. :smallamused: Of course, they can plan carefully to avoid catastrophic losses, but it seems like their higher-ups would be more than willing to buy off these secondary contracts on the cheap, provided their worth something. Maintains their reputation for upholding contracts, too.

I think a nice touch would be that they never bring up people's souls. It's simply understood that any signatory is free to offer it if they're desperate enough.

[ondonaflash]

I think a nice touch would be that they never bring up people's souls. It's simply understood that any signatory is free to offer it if they're desperate enough.

Oh absolutely. Trying to buy a soul is far too "Hard Sell". Its much easier to give people the resources they need to do things that damn themselves and set others on the path to Perdition.

Going up to someone and saying "Hey, wanna sell your soul for money, sex, power?" Just puts them on their guard. Going up to someone and saying "My friend, if you go retrieve this wand for me, I'll give you this sword. Oh, you'll have to go through some peasants to get it, if that's a problem I'll find someone else." is much more cunning.

And once you've found someone to kill the peasants, go to their son and say "I see your parents have been killed, I can help you find their killer, I can arm you, I can teach you, and all you have to do once you've found your killer is bring me his sword."

[QuidEst]

Oh absolutely. Trying to buy a soul is far too "Hard Sell". Its much easier to give people the resources they need to do things that damn themselves and set others on the path to Perdition.

Going up to someone and saying "Hey, wanna sell your soul for money, sex, power?" Just puts them on their guard. Going up to someone and saying "My friend, if you go retrieve this wand for me, I'll give you this sword. Oh, you'll have to go through some peasants to get it, if that's a problem I'll find someone else." is much more cunning.

And once you've found someone to kill the peasants, go to their son and say "I see your parents have been killed, I can help you find their killer, I can arm you, I can teach you, and all you have to do once you've found your killer is bring me his sword."

Nah, far too straightforward. Everybody knows that the devils are always clambering over one another for power. The fact that people know that means that a pair of them can team up, pretending to be at one another's throats. It'd be far too easy for the peasant's son and the first person to realize that they're being played by the same devil. (Any contract signing is going to give away something identifiable. Not a true name, but it's going to be the same on all their contracts.) But if the son is forewarned that the killer is being aided by a rival devil! And that is, of course, why he is being offered such a good deal- not a mention of anybody's soul in the contract! Lets them use all that deceit they have to keep out of the letter of the contract. :smallamused:

[Loxagn]

I've always played it that, in a deal with the Devil, if one side of an agreement breaches contract, then the other side gets the whole enchilada, at no cost.

[Mewtarthio]

A devil is incapable of reneging on a contract on a fundamental metaphysical level. If the devil's various contract end up introducing an unforseen contradiction, the devil splits into two smaller, weaker devils that each attempt to fulfill one side of the dilemma.

[QuidEst]

A devil is incapable of reneging on a contract on a fundamental metaphysical level. If the devil's various contract end up introducing an unforseen contradiction, the devil splits into two smaller, weaker devils that each attempt to fulfill one side of the dilemma.

Ooh… that's rather clever. XP It does seem a bit silly (picturing an imp suddenly splitting into two mini-imps and the two of them squabbling), but I'm sure more dramatic telling could do it justice.

[Calanon]

While Law is normally associated with truth, some devils lie a lot "Lord of the Flies! Lord of the Lies! Baalzebul!" (BoVD Disciple of Baalzebul quote).

"The greatest lies are in reality a truth so horrific that the mortal mind simply refuses to accept it."

-"The Duke of Maladomini", "The Lord of the Flies", "The Lord of Lies", and "The Lord of The 7th layer of Hell", Baalzebub The Fallen

"We are servants to the great Lord of Flies, we are honor bound to behave lawfully and organized" Said a Captain of the Order "But sir, does that not en tale telling the truth? and would that not ruin many opportunities?" asked the Acolyte "Knowledge is like water to a nation, without it the land would die..."

-A Captain explaining the difference between lying and simply hiding the truth to his Acolyte

Baalzebub doesn't need to lie to get what he wants, in fact despite being the "Lord of Lies" he rarely does so choosing to let the truth (or lack there of) torment people :smallamused: I view the Cult of Vecna and the Cult of Baalzebub as 2 of the most frightening Religious orders in all of D&D, not through sheer power but through the ability to manipulate knowledge and information. A nation will remain safe if it has its eyes on its enemies strongholds, however if you were to suddenly remove those eyes... Chaos :smallamused:

Anywho! Most Devils that "Welch" on a deal face the chances of Demotion (Very excruciating and humiliating process), in fact a Devil fears Demotion more then his/her own Lord :smalleek: You can only imagine how horrifying that must be...