Sneaking 3.5

[Tief]

How does sneaking work? I mean.. I get the general idea, and I think I know but I've been told it was wrong so I want to check...

Basically you need two things Cover and not being observed

So as an example I am standing at an open door, nobody is around, I start to sneak into the next room where an orc is.
Now assuming the room is 30x30ft with only the orc in it can I sneak through?
The orc gets a spot check as I walk past where he can see, but do I have to be by the walls or can I pass through the centre of the room as long as I succeed on hide checks?

Any clarification is welcome

[Flickerdart]

You have no cover relative to the orc, nor concealment, so he will see you if he is looking towards you. The walls will not help you. However, if he is not looking in your direction, your Hide check doesn't matter at all, and it's a contest of Listen vs Move Silently to see whether or not he hears you and turns around.

[TypoNinja]

To put it simply, in order to hide, you must have something to hide behind. (unless you scored some flavour of Hide in Plain Sight.)

[TheOOB]

Basically you either need cover or concealment in order to hide. The exact rules are kind of sketchy, but most DM's will let you move between hiding spots as long as you start and end your move in cover/concealment(represented moving from cover to cover while they are not looking).

[tyckspoon]

Basically you either need cover or concealment in order to hide. The exact rules are kind of sketchy, but most DM's will let you move between hiding spots as long as you start and end your move in cover/concealment(represented moving from cover to cover while they are not looking).

I'm reasonably sure there is actually a rule explicitly permitting that, but bugger if I can find it now.

[KillianHawkeye]

Basically you either need cover or concealment in order to hide. The exact rules are kind of sketchy, but most DM's will let you move between hiding spots as long as you start and end your move in cover/concealment(represented moving from cover to cover while they are not looking).


I'm reasonably sure there is actually a rule explicitly permitting that, but bugger if I can find it now.

There is. Moving between Cover (Complete Adventurer, pg. 101). There are penalties for the distance moved, and it also requires a minimum of 5 ranks in the Hide skill for every 5 feet moved.

[Belmikor]

There is. Moving between Cover (Complete Adventurer, pg. 101). There are penalties for the distance moved, and it also requires a minimum of 5 ranks in the Hide skill for every 5 feet moved.

Also reprinted (maybe revised too. Can't remember off the top of my head) in Rules Compendium if you can't get your hands on CA.

[Tief]

Ahh I see, so it makes sneaking around a lot harder than I thought.
So if I had hide in plain sight (Certain versions) I could sneak in front of an orc (Assuming with a penalty to the hide check)?

[Flickerdart]

Ahh I see, so it makes sneaking around a lot harder than I thought.
So if I had hide in plain sight (Certain versions) I could sneak in front of an orc (Assuming with a penalty to the hide check)?
Depends on the version. There are some HiPSes (like the Shadowdancer's) that let you ignore the need for cover and not being observed, so you could run in front of the orc, tweak his nose and then hide right there and then with no penalty.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to hide well...

you should read this handbook:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0

In short: Be a Dark Necropolitan Whisper Gnome with Darkstalker if you want to sneak.

[Tief]

some good information, will be reading through that scout handbook. I've took a dark template ( The cormyr one? ) for some form of HipS so the guide on scouting will be quite useful

[Gavinfoxx]

The Tome of Magic template.

[ericgrau]

Common sources of cover include furniture, statues, other large objects, trees and wall corners. Common sources of concealment include brush, bushes, tall grass, other deep foliage and fog. Shadowy illumination (basically dim light) is also very common, but most monsters including orcs have darkvision which negates it.

No cover, no concealment, no hiding. Or technically the spot DC to see you is 0, plus any situational modifiers like distance.

Additionally you cannot hide while being observed unless you have hide in plain sight or unless you make a bluff check to create a diversion ("Hey! What's that over there?! <zips away, hides>", or hopefully something better).

tangential rant:

IMO skills, especially sneaking related skills, are both way overused and way underused in D&D. A typical "boom you're in a combat in an empty room" hack-n-slash campaign should never include the slightest bit of sneaking. If you ever roll spot or hide under these circumstances you're doing something wrong. There's no cover/concealment, you can't hide, it's not hard to see. At the same time you could repeatedly take 10s on your checks, those casually on watch automatically take 10s, and you could circumvent entire sections of a dungeon simply by having a higher modifier. But only where furniture, corners and so on allow it. If a guard stands in an empty hallway you have to wait patiently for him to leave (as you watch him from the corner you're hiding behind), find another path, or create some event that makes him rush off elsewhere. Sadly most DMs instead run stealth as "Keep rolling over and over again until you roll a 1 or one of ten foes rolls a 20. Ahahaaha, ok you failed, half a dozen guards pour down onto your d6 hide. Why did you split off from the party anyway?"

[Greyfeld85]

I was always under the impression that the Hide skill dealt with your ability to remain unseen after dropping out of sight.

So, moving from cover to cover, using the target's blind spots, abusing shadowy illumination... all to keep from being spotted.

Because it just seems to me like if you have to constantly have cover or concealment to remain unseen, then it kind of makes Hide worthless, since you can already keep from being seen while behind cover or concealment without ever putting a point into the Hide skill.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes, Hide without one of the better versions of Hide in Plain Sight does suck.

Which is why it is so important to get one of the better versions of Hide in Plain Sight.

[KillianHawkeye]

I was always under the impression that the Hide skill dealt with your ability to remain unseen after dropping out of sight.

So, moving from cover to cover, using the target's blind spots, abusing shadowy illumination... all to keep from being spotted.

Because it just seems to me like if you have to constantly have cover or concealment to remain unseen, then it kind of makes Hide worthless, since you can already keep from being seen while behind cover or concealment without ever putting a point into the Hide skill.

You are conflating cover and concealment with total cover and total concealment. Cover and concealment enable the Hide skill. Total cover and total concealment make hiding unnecessary.