OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[MoonCat]

Ha! I thought from the title we'd get to see Tarquin get caught. sneaky Giant.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Hopefully Elan will remember what his dad said about the ring...Pretty smart of Roy to figure it out though. And smarter of Tarquin, sadly.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Ahahahaha!!!

Nope! Best gag ever!

[Flame of Anor]

Tarquin you sneaky bastard! :smallbiggrin:

But anyway, I hope they can come to an agreement to fight Xykon together.

[DaggerPen]

I cannot stop laughing. Well played, Tarquin. Well played.

[rgrekejin]

Tarquin's head is strangely onion-shaped.

[wildwood]

It seems like Tarquin is giving up on pretending to be Thog by the last panel.

Given that the OOTS isn't buying that he's Thog, what does he have to gain from continuing to hide his identity? I wonder if they'll see through it, or if they will settle for identifying him as "unknown assailant".

[Hbgplayer]

Ha! :smallbiggrin:
That is really not what I was expecting.

[lothos]

Now I wish that the end of "Return of the Jedi" had Vader wearing a hood for the previous 3 films.....

[rewinn]

Haw! The Man In The Ironic Mask!!!

P.S. I totally called the regeneration stunt :smallbiggrin:

[Mutant Sheep]

This was nice. The "NOPE" just cracks me up.:smallbiggrin:

[rgrekejin]

It seems like Tarquin is giving up on pretending to be Thog by the last panel.

Given that the OOTS isn't buying that he's Thog, what does he have to gain from continuing to hide his identity? I wonder if they'll see through it, or if they will settle for identifying him as "unknown assailant".

Able combatant... lots of magic items... strange flair for the dramatic... maybe Roy will put it all together. Then again, given the concussion Tarquin probably just gave him, maybe not.

Also, it seems obvious that the ring of regeneration Tarquin has gives him regeneration similair to the extraoridnary ability a troll has, rather than what a normal ring of regeneration does, given the rate at which he healed his damage.

...or maybe he has another item for that? But if he does, then why say he was regenerating?

[Argok]

The mask is also most likely a magic item as well like everything else on his person.

[Chaotic Queen]

This was genius! Definitely my favorite strip! Tarquin's such a Magnificent Bastard that not even we could see that coming!

"Totally worth wearing a mask under my helmet for two days!" Best punchline in the entire comic!

Was anyone else picturing Tarquin flashing a "gotcha grin" in the last three panels?

[Thokk_Smash]

Elan should be the one to figure out it's Tarquin...with genre savviness!

[Whiffet]

Oh, Tarquin. You're sillier than I thought.

I'm impressed with Roy making his Spot and seeing through the disguise, I gotta say. He's paying attention to details right in the middle of combat.

[Madmage]

I was expecting him to be wearing another helmet underneath actually. The hood works too though :)

[thepsyker]

Oh, Tarquin. You're sillier than I thought.

I'm impressed with Roy making his Spot and seeing through the disguise, I gotta say. He's paying attention to details right in the middle of combat.

You know something about the mask gag was just rubbing me wrong and reading this I think this is what it was, it just seems a little silly given how Tarquin has been portrayed so far.

[Dumbledore lives]

Trolling at its best (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z4m4lnjxkY)

[Red XIV]

I'm impressed with Roy making his Spot and seeing through the disguise, I gotta say. He's paying attention to details right in the middle of combat.
Especially since Roy's Spot checks usually aren't very good.

[Forealms]

Oh, Tarquin, you frustrating deviant, you.

Anyone have the details on how much damage is regenerated per round by that ring of his?

[rewinn]

... Was anyone else picturing Tarquin flashing a "gotcha grin" in the last three panels?

...and there was a double helping of "gotcha" in that Roy thought he had a moment of triumph; ripping the helmet off a guy's head is a pretty good feat (...or action, or special, or whatever ... it's cool!)

So Roy's all like "Hey, I figured this one out with my intelligence AND I'm ripping the helmet off this guy's head, how cool is that?" ... but it comes to nothing because Tarquin showed he was expecting it!

Then, for the final beat, casually catching the helmet after he knocks Roy down. MAGNIFICENT!

Tarquin so out-powers them that he's just playing with them like a cat with mice.

"I should have known knowing something would never work out!" ... is another T-shirt worthy line!

[deuxhero]

There are two halfs to every melon!

[Quarion Nailo]

I'm imagining that he has the hood so that Elan can't recognize him and realize that he's working with Nale (at least for the time being).

--QN

[Trufflehound]

You know something about the mask gag was just rubbing me wrong and reading this I this is what it was, it just seems a little silly given how Tarquin has been portrayed so far.

Ay. This doesn't seem anything like either Nale or Elan either. Was amusing, though.

[Sutremaine]

Trolling at its best (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z4m4lnjxkY)
That's terrible.

[Whiffet]

Especially since Roy's Spot checks usually aren't very good.

Or any of the Order's, really. :smalltongue:

[Thagorn]

Looks like he is wearing a ring of fast healing (3 hp / round) rather than a ring of regeneration (1 hp / hour). Or possibly both. To be fair they are both created using the regenerate spell. A ring of fast healing is just the epic version...

Also that mask was hilarious xD

Tarquin is even more prepared and equipped than I expected...

[Dr.Epic]

They can still see his skin color and should be able to notice it's not the orc-green it should be.

[Yendor]

So Old Man Tarquin keeps his secret for another strip.

[Inkling]

"You wanted to know what was under my mask? You could have just asked, you know. Underneath my mask is...

ANOTHER MASK! ISN'T THAT NEAT?!?!"

[KoboldRevenge]

So uh I don't really see why he's hiding his identity. Everyone already knows he is a bad guy. It's not going to be some big reveal when he does get unmasked.

Is it much of a tactical advantage for someone not to know your name? Course he could not want to be associated with the Linear Guild.

[Kaulguard]

Bwahahaha! Nope! Nice hard LOL. Well played, sir.

[t209]

By that point, they know that he's not thog (skin color exposed even with Balaclava) but will they know that it's Tarquin.

[Mantine]

Alright, I always admit when I'm had.
And I was.

Also, I've decided that Tarquin should be the main villain of this story.

[Enero Irontoad]

Excellent strip. First, I liked 'regenerationating' and Belkar alluding to Roy stabbing Thog with an arrow. Roy shows how he's a smart and perceptive fighter again, true to his character. Then Tarquin, that schemer, has a countermeasure.

So, the Order of the Stick knows it's not Thog now, but Tarquin's identity has not been revealed to them. Roy is on the ground, he and Belkar have taken considerable damage, Durkon's been thrown away, and Tarquin's armor is healing him. On top of that, they still haven't even started fighting the rest of the Linear Guild. Things are not looking good for the Order.

[LordVader]

Tarquin continues to be awesome. Easily the best character in the comic at this point. Kudos, Rich; you somehow manage to make him continuously even better than before.

And hey, he's still kicking the crap out of the Order 1v5! Allow me to once again say "told you so". :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

As much as I've disliked Tarquin so far, this fight is starting to me me a fan. The "Nope!" followed by his next line made me laugh out loud, wgich is hard to do and very enjoyable! I love this comic so much.

[t209]

As much as I've disliked Tarquin so far, this fight is starting to me me a fan. The "Nope!" followed by his next line made me laugh out loud, wgich is hard to do and very enjoyable! I love this comic so much.

How many of you start to think him as TF2 engineer's Nope?
P.S- It's 25th stripversary (Made by me) of Thanh's death.

[Enero Irontoad]

So uh I don't really see why he's hiding his identity. Everyone already knows he is a bad guy. It's not going to be some big reveal when he does get unmasked.

Is it much of a tactical advantage for someone not to know your name? Course he could not want to be associated with the Linear Guild.

Yeah, that last thing you said. The Order may know he's Evil, but Elan thinks he's helping them against Nale.

[Steward]

Tarquin won't be laughing so much once Thog shows up and pastes him for his offensively speciest 'greenface' portrayal. Seriously though, I think Tarquin is just trolling now.

[Tohron]

Well, look on the bright side - Roy did prove it wasn't Thog!

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm guessing he expects the OOTS to come back to his empire for one reason or another, and thus by hiding his allegiance with Nale he can continue "helping" the OOTS, thereby pushing both parties in the direction he wants them to go.

It'd be a good scheme if he wasn't competing with much more powerful puppetmasters that he's not even aware of.

[Ridureyu]

Isn't that what Cobra Commander canonically does?

[Stabbey]

I figured that "Thog's" strangely proficient performance in the last strip would give the game away, and yep, Roy spotted it. The Order is still seriously outmatched, thought.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Hmm... A thought just popped in my head...

What if that's NOT Tarquin under the mask? I really don't get Tarquin's plan here, and why fight the OotS before they have the MacGuffin?

What is Tarquin's REAL plan?

Nah, probably not, but think about it...

[MeanMrsMustard]

Well played, Giant. Well played.
Seriously, though. I already love Tarquin, but this just made him shoot up to my favorite non-V character.
And "Nope!" was definitely hilarious.

[snikrept]

How long till they rip the mask off...

"... its Old Mister Tarquin!"

"And I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you MEDDLING KIDS"

[rbetieh]

Ah the good old mask-under-mask gag, this one always cracks me up when I see it. My favorite is still the Kakashi gag in Naruto, but adding the Nope! was certainly a nice touch. Looks like Tarquins Int is not objectively higher than Roys....

[Icedaemon]

With enough prep-time and the right gear...

Where have I encountered that line before?

[Morgan Wick]

It seems like Tarquin is giving up on pretending to be Thog by the last panel.

That makes me wonder if the next strip will start with Elan recognizing the voice.

[Concept]

OMG - That was so worth no plot progression. Although they should be able to figure it out from the "so worth it" line, given that Elan and Tarquin both say that any chance they get, as well as his unique combination of silliness and total domination.

[dakameleon]

Bwahahaha love it :smallbiggrin:

Question though: I'd love to use that panel where the Nope mask is revealed elsewhere on the net. What's the policy around here? Fair use, or Rich's copyright/intellectual property and therefore verboten?

[Deliverance]

That was silly and out of character for Tarquin. No more silliness from him, please, it diminishes the character.

[Forikroder]

...and there was a double helping of "gotcha" in that Roy thought he had a moment of triumph; ripping the helmet off a guy's head is a pretty good feat (...or action, or special, or whatever ... it's cool!)

So Roy's all like "Hey, I figured this one out with my intelligence AND I'm ripping the helmet off this guy's head, how cool is that?" ... but it comes to nothing because Tarquin showed he was expecting it!

Then, for the final beat, casually catching the helmet after he knocks Roy down. MAGNIFICENT!

Tarquin so out-powers them that he's just playing with them like a cat with mice.

"I should have known knowing something would never work out!" ... is another T-shirt worthy line!

tarquin is not outpowering them at all, he managed to knock Roy out after Roy did him a favour of being completely open, tarquins didnt do anythins extra special in this comic that deserves to be ood over aside from having the will save to manage to wear a mask for two whole days in the desert with a helmet over it

and i wonder if theyve been legit fighting for an hour, if its some other item or if Rich is fudging the rules a bit again


Tarquin continues to be awesome. Easily the best character in the comic at this point. Kudos, Rich; you somehow manage to make him continuously even better than before.

And hey, he's still kicking the crap out of the Order 1v5! Allow me to once again say "told you so".

allow me to say your still nowhere close to right

he hasnt even made Belkar faint none of them look like there in any serious danger of going down at all Roy took alot more much bigger hits from Thog and he was still able to walk away on his own fine

the problem people have is they come into this fight assuming that Tarquin is some supremem badass whos higher level then the order by far and taking everything as evidence to support there theory instead of actually looking at the comic and realising weve only seen one and a half round of combat so we know literally nothing about how well the fight is going

[wizuriel]

okay that was awesome :biggrin:

[RMS Oceanic]

That was silly and out of character for Tarquin. No more silliness from him, please, it diminishes the character.

How was it out of character? I could totally see him subvert a dramatic unmasking scene?

[Sorator]

Bahahaha. That was good. Though I wonder if he really thinks he can get through this fight without being recognized - if so, then there's several reasons he could want to hide his true identity, but if not, it seems rather pointless beyond a quick laugh.

However, when your opponent is pulling dangerous maneuvers like ripping off your helmet, it does give you a certain tactical advantage... and that may well be his reason for doing this (in addition to teh lulz, of course, and the opportunities it keeps available should he indeed remain unmasked for the duration of this battle).

[Forikroder]

Bahahaha. That was good. Though I wonder if he really thinks he can get through this fight without being recognized - if so, then there's several reasons he could want to hide his true identity, but if not, it seems rather pointless beyond a quick laugh.

However, when your opponent is pulling dangerous maneuvers like ripping off your helmet, it does give you a certain tactical advantage... and that may well be his reason for doing this (in addition to teh lulz, of course, and the opportunities it keeps available should he indeed remain unmasked for the duration of this battle).

hes just hiding his identity because he has no reason not to, he may look like a fool pretending to be Thog and wearing that mask but its better to look the fool than be one, who knows what you knows is as important as knowing it and making them have no idea who he is or who Nales new divine spellcaster is is huge for Tarquin

for all the Order knows team evil busted Nale out and its Redcloak and Xykon floating up there and there fighting some super Zombie Xykon made

[Gnome Alone]

Sweet Elven gods, do I hate Tarquin. Such a smug little rapist and murdering tyrant and such.

But it's the smugness that gets to me; even when he's pretending to be a fool it's for some self-satisfying master plan.

I kind of hope Xykon shows up and just slices him up like a hot knife through butter just to wipe the damn stick figure smirk off his face for a second.

[Halleflux]

Low. Blow.

Also it's ironic that I had just gone back about 2 days ago and found the stuff about the ring of regeneration and how Tarquin never leaves home without it. Odd.

[factotum]

They can still see his skin color and should be able to notice it's not the orc-green it should be.

And since the whole point of taking off the helmet was to prove the warrior wasn't Thog, that's mission accomplished as far as Roy is concerned--so the "Nope!" written on the mask is actually incorrect! :smallwink:

[talkamancer]

Reminds me of Kendo Nagasaki as all you grapple fans will remember.

[Caractacus]

OMG - That was so worth no plot progression. Although they should be able to figure it out from the "so worth it" line, given that Elan and Tarquin both say that any chance they get, as well as his unique combination of silliness and total domination.

You mean Nale and Tarquin, surely? :smallconfused:

[Theo333]

Why isn't Tarquin's neck stretching several inches upwards?

Also that disguise is useless if he isn't changing his voice when talking normally.

[Holy_Knight]

Batman pulled that trick once in an episode of the Animated Series.

I'm really interested to see how this is all going to play out!

[Querzis]

That was silly and out of character for Tarquin. No more silliness from him, please, it diminishes the character.

You're kidding right? Tarquin is just as silly and overly dramatic as Nale and Elan, being a succesfull evil overlord doesnt change that. I really dont get how you can say silliness is out of character for him when hes silly in half of his appearance.

And hes obviously hiding his identity so that he can reveal it at the most dramatically appropriate moment.

[Killer Angel]

"nope!" is priceless... :smallbiggrin:

...but saying "Totally worth wearing a mask under my helmet for two days!" could give Elan a hint to guess it's Tarquin.

[luc258]

I'm a bit surprised about the attack though. Didn't Tarquin plan on waiting till the OotS had found the portal and then take it away from it?
The whole attack seems a little early for that.

[Roland Itiative]

Haw! The Man In The Ironic Mask!!!

I was already laughing at the strip, but this just made me laugh even more :smallbiggrin:



They can still see his skin color and should be able to notice it's not the orc-green it should be.
Well, at this point it's really clear he isn't Thog anyways. The very fact he has a mask under the helmet could be used as evidence for that. He even dropped the act.

I guess now he'll just keep his identity a secret for drama's sake, as Elan would in his place. He probably wants to make a big reveal of his true identity during their moment of triumph... if such a thing comes even close to happening.

[Hamiltonz]

Great strip. Thanks Giant. :)

[Heksefatter]

Oh Gawd, Tarquin must be an annoying foe to fight.

[Kish]

That was silly and out of character for Tarquin. No more silliness from him, please, it diminishes the character.
...You're kidding, right? That is the character.

[Onyavar]

Nice "reveal".

But.
I'm not aware of any rules regarding ripping off helmets - HOW did Roy manage to do that? Anyone who ever wore a helmet will tell you that these things don't come off just like that, they're integral part of your armor!
Any helmet (regardless in which time and setting) includes straps or other measures to prevent the helmet from slipping, shifting or falling off. (At least, any helmet worth more than a carneval costume.) Helmets are not simple tin pots you put over your head!

In order to remove the helmet, you have to either
- loosen the strap while preventing the opponent to move (I guess this involves grappling rules + DEX checks in D&D).
- or cut off the strap (I guess this involves precise cuts, so DEX again)
- or ripping the helmet off your opponent (including the head!!), which involves a STR check.

Furthermore, while most medieval style helmets are padded inside, they still REQUIRE you to wear a mask like the one Tarquin has there. Wearing a helmet without a mask will give you bruises to no end, even without combat. (ok, regenerating ring > bruises, but still)

Removing the flexible mask under the helmet is in fact EASIER than removing the rigid helmet, so this should be Roys first move in the next comic.

[Onyavar]

I'm a bit surprised about the attack though. Didn't Tarquin plan on waiting till the OotS had found the portal and then take it away from it?
The whole attack seems a little early for that.

Uh, for all the LG knows, the Order should have found the gate by now. I expect Nale to be very pissed off that Roy+Elan DIDN'T manage to find the gate once he finds out.

[Winter]

I'm not aware of any rules regarding ripping off helmets - HOW did Roy manage to do that?

He just grabbed the helmet and did it. That is all that is to it.

[Nohar]

Is my english rusty, or is Elan's dialogue in last panel... Odd ? Is there a reference that I'm missing here ?

Anyway : Tarquin, you little troll...

[Moblin]

I'm a bit surprised about the attack though. Didn't Tarquin plan on waiting till the OotS had found the portal and then take it away from it?
The whole attack seems a little early for that.

You forget, Nale is the titular leader of the Linear guild, and Nale was the one to order the attack right now. Tarquin has taken up a position as 'the man behind the man' in the Linear guild, just as he always does with his kingdoms. I imagine Tarquin is probably giving Nale too much credit here by assuming that Nale has the faintest clue what he's actually doing.

[Roland Itiative]

Nice "reveal".

But.
I'm not aware of any rules regarding ripping off helmets - HOW did Roy manage to do that? Anyone who ever wore a helmet will tell you that these things don't come off just like that, they're integral part of your armor!
Any helmet (regardless in which time and setting) includes straps or other measures to prevent the helmet from slipping, shifting or falling off. (At least, any helmet worth more than a carneval costume.) Helmets are not simple tin pots you put over your head!

In order to remove the helmet, you have to either
- loosen the strap while preventing the opponent to move (I guess this involves grappling rules + DEX checks in D&D).
- or cut off the strap (I guess this involves precise cuts, so DEX again)
- or ripping the helmet off your opponent (including the head!!), which involves a STR check.
Knowing Tarquin, he probably left the helmet loosely strapped (or not strapped at all) just to have a chance to show off his mask :smalltongue:


Furthermore, while most medieval style helmets are padded inside, they still REQUIRE you to wear a mask like the one Tarquin has there. Wearing a helmet without a mask will give you bruises to no end, even without combat. (ok, regenerating ring > bruises, but still)

On that, I guess we can call "there's no rule for tummy aches". Most games, D&D included, don't really focus on realism when depicting armour (hell, most works of fiction, be it an RPG, book, movie, or anything else, ignore a bunch of the "boring" stuff like that), there's no reason for a strip comic to do so.


Removing the flexible mask under the helmet is in fact EASIER than removing the rigid helmet, so this should be Roys first move in the next comic.
True. But will Tarquin let him do it? The man is clearly dominating the fight right now, Roy would probably never have a chance to remove his helmet in the first place if he didn't have a contingency plan.

[Username_too_lo]

Chuck Testa!

[The Pilgrim]

Keep kicking ass, Tarquin. Someone must keep us amused until the real villains show up. Probably the next book or so.

BTW, Roy already knew it wasn't Thog, he pulled the mask in order to identify the enemy, not to confirm the obvious.

[SinsI]

I don't think that mask actually did anything to hide Tarquin's identity, it only provided a surprise for Roy.

[Baphomet]

So a ring of regeneration lets the owner regenerate 1 HP per HD once per hour. That means he only regained somewhere in the vicinity of 17 HP with that, and he can't do it again for a long time. Nowhere near being the fight stopper everyone is acting like it is.

[Burner28]

Good, good, good.

[TynamMerise]

OK, it's official.

The purpose of Tarquin's existence is to make all other entries under Dangerously Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DangerouslyGenreSavvy) seem irrelevant.

[kickassfrog]

So a ring of regeneration lets the owner regenerate 1 HP per HD once per hour. That means he only regained somewhere in the vicinity of 17 HP with that, and he can't do it again for a long time. Nowhere near being the fight stopper everyone is acting like it is.

Still pretty daunting when the order don't know what kind of magic item he has. When they find out it is Tarquin, they'll know more.

Also, perhaps Haley will remove his mask. She has high DEX, access to sneak attack, and hasn't appeared in the last 2 strips. Apart from that one panel showing the order group rushing not-thog.

[ManuelSacha]

It seems like Tarquin is giving up on pretending to be Thog by the last panel.

Given that the OOTS isn't buying that he's Thog, what does he have to gain from continuing to hide his identity? I wonder if they'll see through it, or if they will settle for identifying him as "unknown assailant".


They can still see his skin color and should be able to notice it's not the orc-green it should be.

He already knows the Thog façade is gone. He isn't stupid.
However, he still needs to hide is true identity. Just because they know he's not Thog, that doesn't automatically tell them that he is Tarquin.

[Cynric]

Is there nothing Tarquin can't predict?! He's worse than frikkin' Aizen!

[Themrys]

I guess Elan will recognize Tarquin...the only question is when. The most dramatic moment would be after he killed Tarquin, but I have no idea how he could do that.




Bwahahaha love it :smallbiggrin:

Question though: I'd love to use that panel where the Nope mask is revealed elsewhere on the net. What's the policy around here? Fair use, or Rich's copyright/intellectual property and therefore verboten?


Funny - only now do I realize that I have, for years, needlessly browsed my memory to come up with the English word for "verboten" every time I wrote in English forums when I just could have used the German one.

Regarding your question, I have no idea, but suspect it is verboten, since many things are forbidden on this forum.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Sutremaine]

Is there nothing Tarquin can't predict?! He's worse than frikkin' Aizen!
I'm thinking less of Aizen's Xanatos gambits and more of that one staff meeting now.

[factotum]

Is my english rusty, or is Elan's dialogue in last panel... Odd ? Is there a reference that I'm missing here ?

It's maybe worded a little oddly, but it's definitely par for the course for Elan--he's basically saying he should have known that knowing stuff is bad, which is entirely appropriate for someone as clueless as he is. :smallwink:

[Solidchaos]

Yeah, this page got me to register, that was easily the second most epic troll I've ever seen in a webcomic :D

[Electro]

I wonder if Elan will ever remember he has Greater Dispel Magic.

[Scactha]

the problem people have is they come into this fight assuming that Tarquin is some supremem badass whos higher level then the order by far and taking everything as evidence to support there theory instead of actually looking at the comic and realising weve only seen one and a half round of combat so we know literally nothing about how well the fight is goingThe problem is some people cannot handle their idols being served a can of whop @ss... This defense of the Order in tearful rage is like hearing one of two kids arguing that "Sooooperman would beat up the Hulk ANY DAY!!!!". What gives?

Top comic Giant :smallsmile:

[jaxy15]

Well, Roy DID prove that he wasn't Thog..

[elros]

I am loving this trip! Tarquin's flair for the dramatic is exceeded only by his planning. He is the perfect villain to counter both the Order and Team Evil.

I think Tarquin is not going to kill anyone in the Order, but he will beat them into submission. Then when Team Evil shows up, it will be Linear Guild and the Order against Xykon. How awesome is that!

[BardicDuelist]

I can't believe that this ended up four pages in without anyone mentioning that the title/gag is a reference to the Batman comic/animated video "Under the Red Hood" where Jason Todd does this. (I know a bit of a spoiler, but it happened YEARS ago and the continuity has gone through literally three changes since).

[FujinAkari]

I hearby rename this comic Chuck Tesla

[suszterpatt]

I hearby rename this comic Chuck Tesla
I think you mean Chuck Testa.

But hey, Roy did prove it's not Thog.

[Euodiachloris]

I am loving this trip! Tarquin's flair for the dramatic is exceeded only by his planning. He is the perfect villain to counter both the Order and Team Evil.

I think Tarquin is not going to kill anyone in the Order, but he will beat them into submission. Then when Team Evil shows up, it will be Linear Guild and the Order against Xykon. How awesome is that!

I'm not getting into that betting pool. I've officially quit trying to guess where a certain Mr Rich Burlew is going to go, plot-wise. :smallbiggrin:

Oh... and I agree about the dramatic: for a lawful guy, he really does have a bard's soul. :smallamused: It's safe to carve Tarquin onto every iteration of Genre Savvy (excepting defied and inverted). :smallwink:

Can't wait to see what Karma has in store... :smallamused:

[Khaethrag]

Rich, you son of a gun, you got me, and apparently a lot of others, too.

And it looks to me as if Tarquin is having more fun than he has had in years.

[Euodiachloris]

And it looks to me as if Tarquin is having more fun than he has had in years.

Just as planned! <insert Light's horrible laugh here>

Actually, yeah: I think Tarquin's "let's have fun with these guys" plan is working perfectly. :smallbiggrin:

[One Skunk Todd]

So, the Order of the Stick knows it's not Thog now, but Tarquin's identity has not been revealed to them. Roy is on the ground, he and Belkar have taken considerable damage, Durkon's been thrown away, and Tarquin's armor is healing him. On top of that, they still haven't even started fighting the rest of the Linear Guild. Things are not looking good for the Order.

Time for Team Evil to ride in and save the day. :)

[willpell]

That was silly and out of character for Tarquin. No more silliness from him, please, it diminishes the character.

You seem to have forgotten that Tarquin is one half of the Stereo Goofiness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0727.html).

Also a second consecutive week of perfect ending lines from Elan. The Chaotic philosophy at its finest, and particularly spot-on for a bard: he knows that Rule of Drama is in effect, so the more certain Roy is that things are the way he's figured them, the more inevitable it is that he'll suffer an unexpected twist, and Elan recognizes this. Better not to predict things that will go out of their way to remain unpredictable.

[Aegeus]

Where did Roy get "Leads with the other foot" from? Everyone always faces the camera, so everyone changes what foot they lead with depending on if they're facing left or right.

[Puschkin]

You what would be great? If this wasn't Tarquin!!! He would have fooled even the audience ...

[rbetieh]

The problem is some people cannot handle their idols being served a can of whop @ss... This defense of the Order in tearful rage is like hearing one of two kids arguing that "Sooooperman would beat up the Hulk ANY DAY!!!!". What gives?

Top comic Giant :smallsmile:

I don't understand why people are surprised. Tarquin may not be that higher level than the Order (meaning in a fair fight he ought to be overwhelmed) but his WBL is epic and he always comes prepared, and with the element of surprise. The point at which he resisted Durkons spell (remember, Durkon is the most effective member of the order) it becomes rather obvious that the order didn't have anything they could throw at him. Right now, if the Order wants to overcome his wealth advantage, they need that 9th level wizard spell that strips enchantments from items permanently (whose name I can't remember).

[Skyner]

Great strip!

Though I wonder what Haley is currently doing, she attacked off screen last strip. For that matter Durkon, because the Order could use a heal.

[Concept]

You mean Nale and Tarquin, surely? :smallconfused:

Nope, Elan is the protagonist with a plan:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html

Tarquin is clearly up to something more than the obvious. He didn't need Nale alive to follow the Oots.

Those are the two I want to know about. Nale is just trying to survive and taking the only options he has available; not to mention that if he does twist this to his advantage while being handled by Tarquin, that diminishes the main bad guy in this arc in his own specialty.

[RecklessFable]

So proving not-Thog isn't Thog doesn't really help anyway since not-Thog was pretty much owning all of them. No point in being dead-right. And all of the rest of Team-Evil are still in the wings.

Definitely not a situation that will be won with attack rolls...

[Jay R]

Oh, Tarquin. You're sillier than I thought.

I'm impressed with Roy making his Spot and seeing through the disguise, I gotta say. He's paying attention to details right in the middle of combat.

Yeah -it's just like he uses his Intelligence score in combat! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)


In order to remove the helmet, you have to either
<snip>
- or ripping the helmet off your opponent (including the head!!), which involves a STR check.

Actually, I expect my leather strap would break before my neck would.


Furthermore, while most medieval style helmets are padded inside, they still REQUIRE you to wear a mask like the one Tarquin has there. Wearing a helmet without a mask will give you bruises to no end, even without combat. (ok, regenerating ring > bruises, but still).

My arming cap does not cover my face, nor does any I've ever seen. Do a google search of "arming cap" and you'll see dozens of them.


So uh I don't really see why he's hiding his identity. Everyone already knows he is a bad guy. It's not going to be some big reveal when he does get unmasked.

Is it much of a tactical advantage for someone not to know your name? Course he could not want to be associated with the Linear Guild.

They jumped on him all together, which is the best way to quickly defeat a dumb barbarian who never uses magic items, but plays into the hands of a smart warrior with lots of items and tricks.

(Besides, if they knew it was Tarquin, they have a potential hostage. Somebody - maybe the genre-savvy bard - could put a blade at the throat of Tarquin's son and demand that Tarquin surrender.)

[Euodiachloris]

(Besides, if they knew it was Tarquin, they have a potential hostage. Somebody - maybe the genre-savvy bard - could put a blade at the throat of Tarquin's son and demand that Tarquin surrender.)

Uh... so you want Elan to swipe a knife off Belkar and put it to his own throat? <halo gleams unconvincingly >

[Peelee]

and i wonder if theyve been legit fighting for an hour, if its some other item or if Rich is fudging the rules a bit again

So a ring of regeneration lets the owner regenerate 1 HP per HD once per hour. That means he only regained somewhere in the vicinity of 17 HP with that, and he can't do it again for a long time. Nowhere near being the fight stopper everyone is acting like it is.
Fight has not been ongoing for over an hour. Either the ring's power takes effect at a certain time (every hour on the hour, for example) instead of an hour after the wound was inflicted, or it heals much more rapidly than every hour. The second option seems more plausible.




tarquin is not outpowering them at all, he managed to knock Roy out after Roy did him a favour of being completely open, tarquins didnt do anythins extra special in this comic that deserves to be ood over aside from having the will save to manage to wear a mask for two whole days in the desert with a helmet over it

allow me to say your still nowhere close to right

he hasnt even made Belkar faint none of them look like there in any serious danger of going down at all Roy took alot more much bigger hits from Thog and he was still able to walk away on his own fine

the problem people have is they come into this fight assuming that Tarquin is some supremem badass whos higher level then the order by far and taking everything as evidence to support there theory instead of actually looking at the comic and realising weve only seen one and a half round of combat so we know literally nothing about how well the fight is going


Take a look at the damage lines on the characters here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html), and then here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html). Tarquin is visibly, demonstrably, empirically kicking the order's ass. That Tarquin hasn't one-shotted anyone just means that Tarquin is not so powerful that he CAN one-shot a member of the order. You complain about people coming into the fight with presumptions about Tarquin, but you keep arguing that he is not doing as well as he clearly is, then try to claim "we know literally nothing about how well the fight is going." But here's the thing, we DO know how well the fight is going. We have damage and injury lines (which are getting quite heavy on the order, and were very light on Tarquin even before he regenerated). There is visible, undeniable proof that Tarquin is taking on the Order incredibly effectively. Just because you say he isn't doing well doesn't make it so.

[FujinAkari]

So a ring of regeneration lets the owner regenerate 1 HP per HD once per hour. That means he only regained somewhere in the vicinity of 17 HP with that, and he can't do it again for a long time. Nowhere near being the fight stopper everyone is acting like it is.

Only if you, for some reason, assume the magic item in question is a ring of regeneration. My money's on an item that allows the user to Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm) a certain number of times per day.

[Onyavar]

My arming cap does not cover my face, nor does any I've ever seen. Do a google search of "arming cap" and you'll see dozens of them.

Okay, maybe I confused something. I thought (but now I'm less convinced) that masks like the one of Tarquin (only eyes visible) were in use for face-conceiling helmets.


I can't believe that this ended up four pages in without anyone mentioning that the title/gag is a reference to the Batman comic/animated video "Under the Red Hood" where Jason Todd does this. (I know a bit of a spoiler, but it happened YEARS ago and the continuity has gone through literally three changes since).

"under the hood" is a common expression in english, isn't it? So, both this title and the Batman title are both puns on this expression, right?

[Vinsfeld]

You probably thought Thog was alive....


NOPE!

It's just Chuck Testa

[Whiffet]

Yeah -it's just like he uses his Intelligence score in combat! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0808.html)
I think Spot uses Wisdom, actually. And it takes a Spot check to notice a disguise. Roy has decent Wisdom according to that deva, though, and he has a bonus for being more familiar with Thog than the other members of the Order (except possibly Elan).

[Doug Lampert]

Uh... so you want Elan to swipe a knife off Belkar and put it to his own throat? <halo gleams unconvincingly >

There's precedent. There's a rather famous scene in Blazing Saddles you may want to watch. It comes right after Bart has identified himself as the new sherif.


[the Johnsons load their guns and point them at Bart. Bart then points his own pistol at his head]
Bart: [low voice] Hold it! Next man makes a move, the ****** gets it!
Olson Johnson: Hold it, men. He's not bluffing.
Dr. Sam Johnson: Listen to him, men. He's just crazy enough to do it!
Bart: [low voice] Drop it! Or I swear I'll blow this ******'s head all over this town!
Bart: [high-pitched voice] Oh, lo'dy, lo'd, he's desp'it! Do what he sayyyy, do what he sayyyy!
[Townspeople drop their guns. Bart jams the gun into his neck and drags himself through the crowd towards the station]
Harriet Johnson: Isn't anybody going to help that poor man?
Dr. Sam Johnson: Hush, Harriet! That's a sure way to get him killed!
Bart: [high-pitched voice] Oooh! He'p me, he'p me! Somebody he'p me! He'p me! He'p me! He'p me!
Bart: [low voice] Shut up!
[Bart places his hand over his own mouth, then drags himself through the door into his office]
Bart: Ooh, baby, you are so talented!
[looks into the camera]
Bart: And they are so *dumb*!

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes, arming caps don't cover the face -- they provide additional padding for the skull, plus help to keep the hair in place so that if it's longer than a crew cut, it doesn't flop into your eyes underneath the helmet where you can't get at it easily.

And, pulling off a helmet like that in the middle of a fight should be close to impossible. Those things were strapped on securely specifically so someone couldn't just lift it off and split your skull. I suppose you could wrestle it off by applying enough force to snap a heavy, buckled leather strap or two, but that would be extremely hard to do on an active opponent who was trying to kill you rather than standing there passively. And it might not work anyway -- leather is pretty tough.

So, I can only think that Tarquin left his helm unstrapped specifically for that reason. It doesn't explain why Roy would even try to pull it off, though, since he'd expect it to be strapped in place, and fumbling around futility on your foe's helmet would be a very good way to get your arm chopped off.

[Peelee]

Yes, arming caps don't cover the face -- they provide additional padding for the skull, plus help to keep the hair in place so that if it's longer than a crew cut, it doesn't flop into your eyes underneath the helmet where you can't get at it easily.

And, pulling off a helmet like that in the middle of a fight should be close to impossible. Those things were strapped on securely specifically so someone couldn't just lift it off and split your skull. I suppose you could wrestle it off by applying enough force to snap a heavy, buckled leather strap or two, but that would be extremely hard to do on an active opponent who was trying to kill you rather than standing there passively. And it might not work anyway -- leather is pretty tough.

So, I can only think that Tarquin left his helm unstrapped specifically for that reason. It doesn't explain why Roy would even try to pull it off, though, since he'd expect it to be strapped in place, and fumbling around futility on your foe's helmet would be a very good way to get your arm chopped off.

Also Tarquin should be on the ground after being skewered by Roy's sword, Roy should have had a decent chance of snapping his neck when he fell down the stairs, Roy actually should still be dead, the pterado-owait, this is D&D-based. I don't think anyone is really expecting hyper-realism here.

[rgrekejin]

I can't believe that this ended up four pages in without anyone mentioning that the title/gag is a reference to the Batman comic/animated video "Under the Red Hood" where Jason Todd does this. (I know a bit of a spoiler, but it happened YEARS ago and the continuity has gone through literally three changes since).

Not really. The "Batman: Under the Hood" comics came out in 2005. "Under the Hood" was the name Hollis Mason's fictitious biography in Alan Moore's "Watchmen", which pre-dates that by almost two decades. I'm sure there have been countless references to "Under the Hood" in superhero pulps through the years, and probably in older literature as well, so trying to pin down the exact first appearance of the phrase is probably a fool's errand, but rest assured it did not begin with Batman.

[t209]

I think this arc isn't going to end well (like War and XPS arc).

[M.A.D]

The first thing that came to my mind when I read the title was that I've learned not to expect anything from it.

And I was right. Too bad, it also ruined the joke for me

[brionl]

Fight has not been ongoing for over an hour. Either the ring's power takes effect at a certain time (every hour on the hour, for example) instead of an hour after the wound was inflicted, or it heals much more rapidly than every hour. The second option seems more plausible.


He's probably got a 2nd edition Ring of Regeneration(ating). We have seen hold-overs from previous editions before.

[Forikroder]

The problem is some people cannot handle their idols being served a can of whop @ss... This defense of the Order in tearful rage is like hearing one of two kids arguing that "Sooooperman would beat up the Hulk ANY DAY!!!!". What gives?

im not arguing one way or the other, neither side has done anything to show there winning


(Besides, if they knew it was Tarquin, they have a potential hostage. Somebody - maybe the genre-savvy bard - could put a blade at the throat of Tarquin's son and demand that Tarquin surrender.)

ya that wouldnt work since tarquin has attacked elan(notice the wound marks on him) so he wouldnt stop just because of one bluff

plus such a dumb way to try and stop the fight would probably only make him more angry

Fight has not been ongoing for over an hour. Either the ring's power takes effect at a certain time (every hour on the hour, for example) instead of an hour after the wound was inflicted, or it heals much more rapidly than every hour. The second option seems more plausible.

im not entirely convinced it hasnt been an hour since weve missed an undeterminable amount of rounds

[brionl]

"Under the Hood" refers to the stuff that's underneath the hood of a car, i.e. the engine, brakes, etc. The things that make it go zoom and/or stop. Lately it's been used in superhero comics to refer to what's under the mask, what makes the heroes "go". But it's still a reference back to the original usage.

[Peelee]

Not really. The "Batman: Under the Hood" comics came out in 2005. "Under the Hood" was the name Hollis Mason's fictitious biography in Alan Moore's "Watchmen", which pre-dates that by almost two decades. I'm sure there have been countless references to "Under the Hood" in superhero pulps through the years, and probably in older literature as well, so trying to pin down the exact first appearance of the phrase is probably a fool's errand, but rest assured it did not begin with Batman.

Pretty sure OP was talking about this (http://onlineslangdictionary.com/meaning-definition-of/under-the-hood).
EDIT: Ninja'd!



He's probably got a 2nd edition Ring of Regeneration(ating). We have seen hold-overs from previous editions before.
Could be. I think FujinAkari probably has it right, though.



im not arguing one way or the other, neither side has done anything to show there winning
Tarquin has done alot of damage to the Order, the Order has done little damage to Tarquin, and Tarquin has healed almost all damage. That looks very much like Tarquin has shown he is winning.


im not entirely convinced it hasnt been an hour since weve missed an undeterminable amount of rounds

Really? So with two lobbed vitriolic spheres, the order flying up and falling down, and Tarquin riding in on them and tassling a bit, you think it's possible a full hour has passed? Seriously?

[FujinAkari]

im not entirely convinced it hasnt been an hour since weve missed an undeterminable amount of rounds

While it is true that we don't know how many rounds have passed without being explicitly shown, there would have had to be 5,995 of them to make it a full hour.

We can account for five rounds, you're going to have to work pretty hard to pad almost 6K more in :P

[Valyrian]

I must say I did not enjoy this strip. It really doesn't go anywhere, and appears to exist only to deliver the rather lame (in my opinion) "Nope" joke, which again was only one of these willing suspension of disbelief shattering "Tarquin is even crazier prepared than Batman" moments.

I seriously begin to suspect the Giant is trying to shill Tarquin, and that never goes well with me.

[theNater]

I'm a bit surprised about the attack though. Didn't Tarquin plan on waiting till the OotS had found the portal and then take it away from it?
The whole attack seems a little early for that.
Nale ordered the attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html). The basic intent was to drive the Order further into the pyramid, rather than let them stand around talking for days and days.

Unfortunately, Roy suspects Vaarsuvius is still out there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0848.html), and possibly in trouble. So rather than retreating into the pyramid(which is probably their best bet tactically), they've come out in hopes of rescuing their elf buddy.

[Sethram]

You know something about the mask gag was just rubbing me wrong and reading this I think this is what it was, it just seems a little silly given how Tarquin has been portrayed so far.

I think it is just that Tarquin wants to make sure his unmasking happens when it is most dramatically relevant.

[Fanta]

I've been quite disappointed too. No plot progression, and lately it's proceeding very slowly, and a quite sad pun from Tarquin's side. I was really expecting something more Tarquinworthy, just to quote #54, maybe a surprise round for recognizing him and then the whole Linear Guild's charge. The mask? Not Tarquinish, really. Maybe he isn't really Tarquin, after all? Don't believe so.

Great Spot checks by Roy's side, btw. Appreciated the "lead with other leg" note.

[Forikroder]

Really? So with two lobbed vitriolic spheres, the order flying up and falling down, and Tarquin riding in on them and tassling a bit, you think it's possible a full hour has passed? Seriously?

i think its conceivable either its been an hour or tarquin is using some item that noone knows about

or malack has insane range on his healing spells and being uber sneaky

[theNater]

ya that wouldnt work since tarquin has attacked elan(notice the wound marks on him) so he wouldnt stop just because of one bluff
Those wound marks came from Zz'dtri's Vitriolic Sphere. Tarquin has not attacked Elan, unless you're considering all actions the Linear Guild takes to be at Tarquin's behest.

[rgrekejin]

"Under the Hood" refers to the stuff that's underneath the hood of a car, i.e. the engine, brakes, etc. The things that make it go zoom and/or stop. Lately it's been used in superhero comics to refer to what's under the mask, what makes the heroes "go". But it's still a reference back to the original usage.

...d'oh.

Of course. I was concentrating so heavily on the application of the phrase in superhero-dom that I completely forgot about that actual origin. Boy, do I feel dumb.

[Baphomet]

He was talking about how he doesn't leave without his Ring of Regeneration, and now he says he's regenerat(ion)ing, so that's where I'm basing my assessment from.
I was allowing for a loose interpretation of the ring of regeneration with my "1 HP per HD per hour" thing. Here's the actual text on the ring:

Regeneration: This white gold ring continually allows a living
wearer to heal 1 point of damage per level every hour rather than
every day. (This ability cannot be aided by the Heal skill.) Nonlethal
damage heals at a rate of 1 point of damage per level every 5
minutes. If the wearer loses a limb, an organ, or any other body
part while wearing this ring, the ring regenerates it as the spell. In
either case, only damage taken while wearing the ring is regenerated.
Strong conjuration; CL 15th; Forge Ring, regenerate; Price
90,000 gp.

There are really two ways of interpreting this. The one I initially assumed when I read about the ring could be restated as something like "you regain 1 HP every 1/level hours" or something, so it's a slow process that takes a full hour to complete. After rereading it to understand what is happening in the comic though, that interpretation strikes me as kind of fiddly and difficult to adequately nail down in rules text format. Now I suspect it's something closer to "You gain a spell like ability to recover 1 HP/level which is usable as a free action. You must wait at least an hour between uses."

Then I guess there's always the possibility that it's something other than a standard ring of regeneration, but rather something that gives him a regeneration special ability like trolls get, which would be at the most Regeneration 1 because something like that seems farther into epic levels than even Xykon could handle. It could also be a Ring of Fast Healing 3 or something. The problem with either of those, though, is that he's only healing 1 to 3 HP per round, and it looks like he recovered quite a bit more than that. It seems more likely to me to be more like a "1 HP per level" healing thing that happens once an hour.

[Masamichi]

The problem is some people cannot handle their idols being served a can of whop @ss... This defense of the Order in tearful rage is like hearing one of two kids arguing that "Sooooperman would beat up the Hulk ANY DAY!!!!". What gives?

Top comic Giant :smallsmile:

I don't think it has to be idolization. I mean, I like Roy, but in my (perhaps misguided) view, Roy is the hero. Moreover, this comes across as what I've felt like has been more, "The OotS cannot win any fight until the plot dictates it is so." Effectively, I empathize with the cast as an actual party in a D&D game, which they are somewhat modeled off.

I can actually really understand the frustration that the players would be feeling when they cannot accomplish much; it's felt like there was a shift ever since Roy came back from the dead, where the PCs are doing themselves no favors by trying to accomplish anything at all. As Elan's observation hammers home in the final panel, the clearest route to success is to patiently wait for the plot to carry them forward -- striving is just a shortcut to failure, as the entire thing about V's spell leading him to an annoyingly emo Heroic BSOD underscores (I wouldn't mind if it weren't so petty, but it's such a cheap way to remove him from the scene ... then again, considering how badly things were stacked against him last time, I don't really know how it was necessary to remove him from the picture this time -- but I digress).

So, while the OotS will ultimately 'succeed,' because that's the narrative, they can never really 'win' because that (evidently) is a dull narrative without any room for clever jokes. The unfortunate tradeoff is that in the perceptions of some, this comes across as turning the OotS into extensive buttmonkeys. The last Thog v. Roy fight really underscored this, IM(NS)HO; while it could be seen as a humorous deconstruction of 'intelligence isn't a useful stat for fighters' it also really undermines Roy's character and makes him a comedic failure (his planning (as always) all comes to naught). Especially since the 'turn-around' of 'Kno: Architecture' allowing Roy to win wasn't planned, it was as lucky as an unexpected crit (which would have accomplished the same thing).

As an example, again -- Roy manages to demonstrate his intelligence and ability to succeed, only to be thwarted again for the purposes of a gag. I'll note that this wouldn't be so grating if it weren't immediately on the heels of a gratuitous one-sided beatdown (followed by Thog, naturally, KOing himself, since Roy wasn't up to the task).

Anyway. It's okay if that narrative is fine by you, but I think you should try and respect people who feel differently. You don't need to attack other people to encourage and support a work you still appreciate. I actually wish I still could appreciate it as much as you evidently do....


I must say I did not enjoy this strip. It really doesn't go anywhere, and appears to exist only to deliver the rather lame (in my opinion) "Nope" joke, which again was only one of these willing suspension of disbelief shattering "Tarquin is even crazier prepared than Batman" moments.

I seriously begin to suspect the Giant is trying to shill Tarquin, and that never goes well with me.

Yeah, I've been enjoying the strip in general less and less as it feels like character accomplishment consistently takes a back seat to clever gags. Sometimes, as in the Thog v. Roy fight (as mentioned above) it actually turns something that should be at least mildly irritating into something wholly grating. For a time period, that strip made me stop reading the comic in disgust, only to return and read it out of Bile Fascination (how much more can our heroes be 'beaten' while ostensibly still being 'successful'?).

There's an age-old philosophy that authors and artists these days seem to ignore because 'darker and edgier is ez-mode cool'; that philosophy is 'the good guys win'. Now, challenges have their place, and having the party win without ever facing any significant obstacles is the domain of the Boring Invincible Hero (or Party, one supposes). At the same time, having the Order need to deal with a single character who is so far holding his own 1v5 (Haley, Roy, Durkon, Belkar, Elan), and has been shown to be a capable planner (thus, not likely to have miscalculated) while significant reinforcements lurk in the wings (most of the Linear Guild)....

My prediction is that (and this has been echoed by others in the thread) either infighting among the enemy, or Xhykon's (sorry about the spelling) unexpected arrival are going to be the only things that tip the balance in the favor of the Order. And I, for one, am tired of reading about the characters who are supposed to be the heroes all bumble around incompetently, a thought underscored by the fact that the least competent character is the one who has been beaten up the least (and accomplished the greatest margin of genuine success, post-resurrection).

I've just got ever dwindling interest in reading the story of the campaign where the NPCs accomplish everything, and the PCs are lucky to be along for the ride; I've played through that one a few times too many with awful GMs, so this unintentionally reminds me of those unpleasant games.

I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me; most of what I said is just opinion, and my take on things. I've never given feedback on this comic to the artist before, but my hope is that this comes through as constructive criticism and isn't simply torn to shreds by indignant fans who enjoy things as they are. Well, to each, their own, though as I've said ... these things make me enjoy the comic less and less every time they happen.

As has been said, enjoy if you can, tolerate if you won't. It's shifting to the latter for me with this comic these days. :\

[Doug Lampert]

While it is true that we don't know how many rounds have passed without being explicitly shown, there would have had to be 5,995 of them to make it a full hour.

We can account for five rounds, you're going to have to work pretty hard to pad almost 6K more in :P

Quibble: There are only 600 rounds to an hour (10 per minute), so he only needs to explain 595 of them, not 6k.

But I agree, it has not been an hour or anything close to it, it doesn't really matter if the ring is a 2nd edition ring, houseruled, doing 1HP/HD once per hour and just did an entire hour's worth, or an epic ring of fast healing. Tarquin probably got back 20 or fewer HP and it gave him back much of what the OotS had done to him. They aren't seriously hurting him.

[Gift Jeraff]

The problem is some people cannot handle their idols being served a can of whop @ss... This defense of the Order in tearful rage is like hearing one of two kids arguing that "Sooooperman would beat up the Hulk ANY DAY!!!!". What gives?

Top comic Giant :smallsmile:It's funny. The same "idol worship" can be applied to Tarquin, considering the posts that insist he's the most competent thing ever/Epic level/Neutral/deserves to win/etc.

Personally, I feel the heroes are going to lose this one, but I also think Tarquin's competence is intentionally getting built up by the comic only to come gloriously crashing down.

[theNater]

Especially since the 'turn-around' of 'Kno: Architecture' allowing Roy to win wasn't planned, it was as lucky as an unexpected crit (which would have accomplished the same thing).
Except that it was planned, for at least three rounds.

Note that Roy sees Zz'dtri being hauled away in chains, then runs to each of the three pillars in turn(okay, he crawls to the third one), and taunts Thog from in front of each of them. He is deliberately manipulating Thog into weakening the structural stability of the arena. It could be argued he had this idea in mind as soon as he landed in the stands, and that's why he shooed away all the spectators.

It's right up there with enticing the half-ogre with a spiked chain to fall off a cliff.

[Masamichi]

Note that Roy sees Zz'dtri being hauled away in chains, then runs to each of the three pillars in turn(okay, he crawls to the third one), and taunts Thog from in front of each of them. He is deliberately manipulating Thog into weakening the structural stability of the arena. It could be argued he had this idea in mind as soon as he landed in the stands, and that's why he shooed away all the spectators.

YMMV; Roy had the cliff plan from the beginning. The architecture thing was literally handed to him after Thog threw him through a wall. It really doesn't matter, ultimately; nothing you can say will make me feel it's anything more than a completely hollow victory that wasn't earned, and I sincerely doubt any argument I could make would change your viewpoint, either. Which is for the best, since that's not my goal.

I'm only trying to express my take on things, not argue that my view is the 'correct' one. It's just a difference in perspective.

[Valyrian]

Well, it's not easy to find the right place between overly powerful heroes and overly challenging enemies, and that sometimes entails to make the heroes lose for a time, for the victory to feel rewarding in the end.

I just get the feeling that their current enemy does not "play fair", and I don't mean that by in-universe standards, but from a narrative perspective. It feels as if Tarquin has the author on his side, who occasionally supplies him with retroactive "preparation", which would be in no way believable for a realistic person, even if he is a well-prepared person such as Tarquin.

Writing a well-prepared character is difficult. Revealing too much of his preparation ruins the surprise, but revealing none of it makes him look as if he got everything served on a silver platter. I think the Giant had a point when he criticized his readers' tendencies to complain about everything that hasn't been explicitly foreshadowed, but I feel he stretched the leeway one should give there too far now, because we're easily reaching the levels of Batman's convenient shark-repellant spray here.

And even Batman's ridiculous foresight was mainly played for laughs. I would expect OotS to lampshade something like that pretty extensively, too, but apparently not. This is what lead to my suspicion that the Giant wants to make Tarquin look awesome at all costs, and can't even afford to let him be the butt of a joke in the meantime.

[Concept]

re: arming cap

It's basically a cloth version of a suspension system for the helmet, like those plastic straps inside a construction worker's hard-hat, so that it stays in place and not directly next to your head. Otherwise the helmet would provide little protection from impact.

It would be very securely attached to the helmet, and might cost the nobleman more money than the rest of the helmet. But it is an integral part of the helmet, so if you take off the helmet, you also take off the arming cap.

So that's a completely separate hood, and not an arming cap.

edit: Apparently I'm talking about a suspension harness, and arming cap is a more generic term for any cloth under the helmet. Oops.

[Anarion]

I wonder why Roy was able to pull off the helmet so easily. Perhaps that only required a touch attack or Tarquin allowed it to happen for the sake of the joke? It was amusing at any rate, although I feel like not much actually happened in this comic, since they're at essentially the same point in the fight as last round.


Only if you, for some reason, assume the magic item in question is a ring of regeneration. My money's on an item that allows the user to Regenerate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/regenerate.htm) a certain number of times per day.

Perhaps Tarquin has an epic ring of rapid healing? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rings.htm#rapidHealing

That would give him 3 hp per round, with the effect being noticed by the Order at this point since they had only recently inflicted damage. It's an expensive ring, but Tarquin strikes me as being able to afford most anything he would like.

[AtomicKitKat]

What made this strip even funnier for me was that earlier in the day, I was watching the intro for Jack of All Trades.:smallbiggrin:

[Leliel]

And even Batman's ridiculous foresight was mainly played for laughs. I would expect OotS to lampshade something like that pretty extensively, too, but apparently not. This is what lead to my suspicion that the Giant wants to make Tarquin look awesome at all costs, and can't even afford to let him be the butt of a joke in the meantime.


Yes. Completely awesome. Not incapable of failing or oversight in any way.

No siree (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html).

And really-not played for laughs? Sir Provides-Goofy-Referential-Manuals-To-Guards?

Tarquin's great strength, along with his insight into genre, is explicitly his ability to create failsafes. While things happen that he didn't forsee, such as the above strip, he can guess at the affects on him and recover (hence why he's wearing that ring).

If he was truly invincible, he would have guessed Elan was trying to distract him and countered.

[rgrekejin]

YMMV; Roy had the cliff plan from the beginning. The architecture thing was literally handed to him after Thog threw him through a wall. It really doesn't matter, ultimately; nothing you can say will make me feel it's anything more than a completely hollow victory that wasn't earned, and I sincerely doubt any argument I could make would change your viewpoint, either. Which is for the best, since that's not my goal.

But creating plans that always work the first time is not the only function of intelligence. Roy's plans may not work out all the time, but, as was evidenced in the very Thog fight you are complaining about, Roy is very, very good at thinking on his feet and taking advantage of opportunities that present themselves. To completely discount this as being a valid manifestation of his intelligence does intelligence itself a disservice. If Roy wasn't as smart or as capable as he is, then when he got knocked through the floor with Thog, he'd just keep fighting him normally. He needs to be intelligent to turn the columns in to a usable advantage. If you're only looking for flawless plans that go off without a hitch as proof of Roy's intelligence, you're going to be looking for a long time. After all, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.

...wasn't there another comic on this site that dealt with this issue once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0137.html)?

Yeah, Roy didn't know about the architecture ahead of time. That doesn't matter. What matters that is that, when he did see it, he knew exactly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11982830&postcount=391) how to use it to his advantage. That's how you use an intelligence score in combat.

[Valyrian]

@Leliel:
I don't know why you feel the need to resort to this sort of passive-aggressive sarcasm here.

Yes, Tarquin is not omniscient, and he makes mistakes. Did that affect the overall situation, though? It's not entirely clear at the moment, but judging by the current strip, for your example that doesn't seem to be the case. In general, a character doesn't need to succeed in every situation to still have the cards stacked in his favor by the author.

Also, yes, Tarquin is a source of jokes. But these jokes are almost never at his expense, and this is what I would define as "played for laughs". Your example completely supports my argument: Tarquin's guidebooks showcase his competence, such as the ability (again) to predict his opponent's behavior.

Please don't read me as confrontational about it, I'm trying to be as factual as I be with my posts, while your reaction seemed overly defensive. In the end, this is my personal opinion, and I'm aware that other people perceive the strip differently. All I'm trying to do here is to explain (or find out!) why I feel about recent strips the way I do. It's not my intention to "prove you wrong" or something like that when you like it.

[Mordokai]

Ok, as far as the jokes go... this one has been the lamest so far.

[Cavelcade]

re: arming cap

It's basically a cloth version of a suspension system for the helmet, like those plastic straps inside a construction worker's hard-hat, so that it stays in place and not directly next to your head. Otherwise the helmet would provide little protection from impact.

It would be very securely attached to the helmet, and might cost the nobleman more money than the rest of the helmet. But it is an integral part of the helmet, so if you take off the helmet, you also take off the arming cap.

So that's a completely separate hood, and not an arming cap.

I...what?

The helmets I've used, which have to be historically accurate as I use them for re-enactment, have got a leather-spider on the inside to keep it in one place and a strap for under your chin to tie it on.

The arming cap is a separate, padded cap which is tied on under the helmet to provide padding as well.

There are probably helmets that are like what you describe, but they're certainly not the only version of helmets.


On the other hand, you claim that they would cost more than the rest of the helmet, which is laughable without proof, so I'm doubting your entire post really.

[King of Nowhere]

YMMV; Roy had the cliff plan from the beginning. The architecture thing was literally handed to him after Thog threw him through a wall. It really doesn't matter, ultimately; nothing you can say will make me feel it's anything more than a completely hollow victory that wasn't earned, and I sincerely doubt any argument I could make would change your viewpoint, either. Which is for the best, since that's not my goal.

I'm only trying to express my take on things, not argue that my view is the 'correct' one. It's just a difference in perspective.

So, you're saying that you find roy did not earn his victory by collpasning a building on his opponent, but he would have earned it by making attack rolls and rolling higher than thog?

Really, i think you're taking too much of the D&D campaign here: The way those campaigns go, it would make for very boring stories. the heroes goes there, womp their level-appropriate encounter, and win the day. Just by rolling dices. It would have been very anticlimatic if roy and thog just stood there hiting each other until one fell down, as would happen in a real D&D.


Anyway, back on tarquin's preparation: I don't think he was prepared to roy unmasking him and brought the mask for that: I think he wanted, from the start, to impersonate thog, and he considered that he may be unmasked, and he allowed that to happen for fun.
Remember, tarquin wants to have fun and be a cool guy, I would totally see him letting his elmet unstrapped just so that someone could unmask him and find the mask so tarquin could have his cool moment. he's just that kind of guy.
And I found the thing very funny.

Also, tarquin has been shown as making occasional mistakes: for example, assuming zzd'tri was an ambassador of the dark elves, or not knowing nale was there. there are many details like those, that keeps tarquin in the "very good, but still human" and keep him from being a villain mary sue.

EDIT: I see much more negative comments on that than normally. I think you guys are nervous because we're having slow updates, and so are reacting badly to something that don't advance the plot for another week.

[Scactha]

/.../

Anyway. It's okay if that narrative is fine by you, but I think you should try and respect people who feel differently. You don't need to attack other people to encourage and support a work you still appreciate. I actually wish I still could appreciate it as much as you evidently do....Speaking of claiming to put words in peoples mouths...

I don´t think Tarquin is awesome, nor the Order. I think the story telling skill of Rick is. Sorry.

There is one character I like above the rest of the cast: O-Chul for managing to be a good guy and be bad ass. It´s easy to create a cool villain, but infinetly harder to succeed in a hero. Rick stands out here which I find very impressive.

As for your other point I agree the Order is on slope to gag-dom and the whole thing feels a tad to rail roaded in their perspective. They need a break indeed.

[sims796]

There is one character I like above the rest of the cast: O-Chul for managing to be a good guy and be bad ass. It´s easy to create a cool villain, but infinetly harder to succeed in a hero. Rick stands out here which I find very impressive.

As for your other point I agree the Order is on slope to gag-dom and the whole thing feels a tad to rail roaded in their perspective. They need a break indeed.

Couldn't agree more. To be a badass villain, all ya gotta do is do bad things with style. We have alot of those. To be a badass good guy, you need to do badass good things, while still being able to get your ass kicked by the more powerful more stylish villain. Tough to do indeed.

I also agree with the whole "railroading" thing. Nale's group is continuing to grate on my nerves. Almost every time they show up, the Order is placed under some massive disadvantage. It was clever when Nale had purposely set these disadvantages himself, but now it's just contrived. V is one of the more powerful members. He can really turn the fight to the Order's advantage. How fortunate for Nale that he just so happen to decide to attack just as V was taken out by a freak accident!

[jedipilot24]

Right now, if the Order wants to overcome his wealth advantage, they need that 9th level wizard spell that strips enchantments from items permanently (whose name I can't remember).

Disjunction:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0636.html
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm

Unfortunately, even if V were high enough level to cast it (unlikely), V is currently knocked out in a pit.

[jidasfire]

To those bothered by Tarquin's semi-prescience, I can understand the frustration at him always being one step ahead of everyone, but I don't think it's going to last forever. I think because Tarquin is so good at predicting people and genres, somewhere in all this, he's going to be taken completely off-guard by something completely unexpected, and it will be his undoing.

The Order's battles are usually uphill, and while given a slow update schedule that can be frustrating, in retrospect they really do earn their victories. I will admit that at times I'd like to see them just win something, and I feel bad for Roy's tendency to do everything right and still fail, but I think they need to go through these nasty trials in order to be ready for the real threats, like Xykon, Redcloak, and the Snarl.

[Anarion]

Disjunction:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0636.html
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm

Unfortunately, even if V were high enough level to cast it (unlikely), V is currently knocked out in a pit.

Disjunction would hardly be a guaranteed success. Tarquin certainly has enough magic items that he would probably fail a few saves, but all indications thus far are that he has a high will save (resisting Durkon's hold spell) and therefore most of his items would be likely to survive the disjunction just fine.

[RNGgod]

To those bothered by Tarquin's semi-prescience, I can understand the frustration at him always being one step ahead of everyone, but I don't think it's going to last forever. I think because Tarquin is so good at predicting people and genres, somewhere in all this, he's going to be taken completely off-guard by something completely unexpected, and it will be his undoing.

The Order's battles are usually uphill, and while given a slow update schedule that can be frustrating, in retrospect they really do earn their victories. I will admit that at times I'd like to see them just win something, and I feel bad for Roy's tendency to do everything right and still fail, but I think they need to go through these nasty trials in order to be ready for the real threats, like Xykon, Redcloak, and the Snarl.

This; after all, "taken completely off-guard by something completely unexpected" is EXACTLY how the previous comic ended.

[Tobimaro]

Good one, Giant. Tarquin is showing how a bad guy should act. Keep the heroes guessing.

[Mr. Scaly]

Oh sweet criminey XD All of the OOTS big villains are on my top ten best villains list, but Tarquin just keeps pulling ahead of Xykon and Red Cloak

[Warren Dew]

Given that the OOTS isn't buying that he's Thog, what does he have to gain from continuing to hide his identity?
Tarquin can appear as himself later and still claim to be an ally. That might be tough if they knew he'd attacked them.

[sims796]

To those bothered by Tarquin's semi-prescience, I can understand the frustration at him always being one step ahead of everyone, but I don't think it's going to last forever. I think because Tarquin is so good at predicting people and genres, somewhere in all this, he's going to be taken completely off-guard by something completely unexpected, and it will be his undoing.

The Order's battles are usually uphill, and while given a slow update schedule that can be frustrating, in retrospect they really do earn their victories. I will admit that at times I'd like to see them just win something, and I feel bad for Roy's tendency to do everything right and still fail, but I think they need to go through these nasty trials in order to be ready for the real threats, like Xykon, Redcloak, and the Snarl.

Well, Tarquin really doesn't bother me that much. I knew from the get-go that the Order would have their work cut out for them. So far, my expectations have been met, and I am entertained (not because my expectations are met, mind you, it just happens to be entertaining).

It's just, after so many appearances by the Linear Guild, it starts to get old. And predictable. They are constantly put at a disadvantage before a fight, right before they clean up. They earn their victories, but it isn't fun anymore. This one in particular is irritating, as their wizard was taken out before the fight even began, by a completely unrelated incident no less, It's as if the gods are going out of their way to screw with them. As one poster once put it, if this was an actual dungeon run, and our wizard was taken out by forces out of our control, I'd have called the DM out.

Still, you're probably right. The slow updates can really skew one's perspective, and it makes it hard to see the whole thing as a collective unit.

[Valyrian]

To those bothered by Tarquin's semi-prescience, I can understand the frustration at him always being one step ahead of everyone, but I don't think it's going to last forever. I think because Tarquin is so good at predicting people and genres, somewhere in all this, he's going to be taken completely off-guard by something completely unexpected, and it will be his undoing.

The Order's battles are usually uphill, and while given a slow update schedule that can be frustrating, in retrospect they really do earn their victories. I will admit that at times I'd like to see them just win something, and I feel bad for Roy's tendency to do everything right and still fail, but I think they need to go through these nasty trials in order to be ready for the real threats, like Xykon, Redcloak, and the Snarl.
Right after I finished reading your first paragraph I decided to reply that this is probably due to the slow update schedule, but you have already made this point, too. Good post.

I agree that the perception mainly comes from the fact that we can't read Tarquin's full story at the moment. My criticism completely focuses on the strip itself, and while that's of course not entirely fair to the story as a whole, it's the way how we digest the story with one week between each strip. Now I don't want to complain about the update schedule, but I think that the story should account for the fact that it is how it is. And imo, that means throwing the currently "losing" side a bone once in a while, even if you wouldn't need to do so if publishing the strips that tell the story occured on a daily basis.

[Bulldog Psion]

It's just, after so many appearances by the Linear Guild, it starts to get old. And predictable. They are constantly put at a disadvantage before a fight, right before they clean up. They earn their victories, but it isn't fun anymore. This one in particular is irritating, as their wizard was taken out before the fight even began, by a completely unrelated incident no less, It's as if the gods are going out of their way to screw with them. As one poster once put it, if this was an actual dungeon run, and our wizard was taken out by forces out of our control, I'd have called the DM out.

I agree. Their victories were a bit more solid in the early days of the comic, yet it never felt like they were unearned. Nowadays, they're inevitably separated, outmatched, and basically put at every disadvantage, and then win through a series of events so contrived that it doesn't feel like they won, just that they won the lottery. It actually seems more

I mean, Roy was totally pulverized by Thog for most of the fight, and then he won because his flesh and bone head is apparently so hard that it can be forced through a solid rock pillar rather than bursting on the outside like a melon. Yes, I know, somebody is going to say "but it's a fantasy story, so don't look for realism here", but at a certain point, it just gets cheesy if someone can headbutt down a pillar at a convenient moment and the foe who outmatched him is destroyed by a "rocks fall, everybody dies" moment. It doesn't even feel like Roy won -- it feels more like the author painted himself into a corner by making Thog too tough to beat logically, and came up with a truly half-baked, illogical way for Roy to "win". Totally unsatisfying.

At this point, I'd personally like to see either the Linear Guild or the Order wiped out permanently, because it's getting so frustrating seeing the Sisyphean struggle between them, filled with contrived circumstances and the inability to bring any kind of closure. If the Order is so incompetent that they can never win against a B-list villain like Nale, let them die. If Nale isn't supposed to be tougher than Xykon, then he's had far too much screen time already. Off him and get on with the story, for gosh sakes.

Right now, it's been going like this: Linear Guild trounces Order who are incompetent, weak, and unprepared, series of bizarre, contrived circumstances saves Order's bacon, Linear guild immediately bounces back to full strength, Linear Guild trounces Order .... and on and on and on ....

I know this is going to be interpreted as my disliking the story with various calls for me to stop reading, etc. But it's precisely because I DO like the story that I'm frustrated by the fact that it just seems to going around in pointless, annoying circles since Nale showed up again. Nothing is resolved -- it just keeps going around and around and around.

Yeah, the Order's outmatched again and Tarquin is drawing out the suspense of what he's going to do to the point of tedium. Ho hum.

By the way, when was the last time a plotline was actually resolved in this story? Would it be Roy's resurrection? I don't think the Order has accomplished anything, except nothing, since they came to this continent.

[Masamichi]

Speaking of claiming to put words in peoples mouths...

Something I have not done; are you mistaking me for someone else, perhaps? You seem to have read an awful lot into what I said that wasn't intended, so if I conveyed myself poorly, I'll apologize.

Let me re-read what I wrote just to make sure.


Anyway. It's okay if that narrative is fine by you, but I think you should try and respect people who feel differently. You don't need to attack other people to encourage and support a work you still appreciate. I actually wish I still could appreciate it as much as you evidently do....

Y...es, I don't see a thing here accusing you of being a Tarquin fan or anything like that; my commentary was more generally addressing the narrative, and how the treatment of the characters figures into that. I did (politely) chide you for being derisive towards people you don't agree with, but just to review, you remarked:


The problem is some people cannot handle their idols being served a can of whop @ss... This defense of the Order in tearful rage is like hearing one of two kids arguing that "Sooooperman would beat up the Hulk ANY DAY!!!!". What gives?

Which is, ironically, the very thing you incorrectly accused me of. You put words into the mouths of those who dislike Tarquin, calling them children &cetera. I'm going to assume you just got me mixed up with someone else and this whole thing was an untinentional slip; I realize my stance actually does come across as similar to Valyrian's. Did you get us confused? Understandable if so, since we do seem to be in the minority.

Well -- sorry for the confusion, then.


I don´t think Tarquin is awesome, nor the Order. I think the story telling skill of Rick is. Sorry.

Interesting. I don't agree with your opinion at this point, though I do respect it. In my view, this is a failure of storytelling because it's not compelling or interesting to me (naturally, the opposite is true for you; what one person finds distasteful and grating can easily be found as wholly enjoyable by someone else; tastes differ). In my view, the characters are being twisted/dumbed-down into buttmonkeys to convey a comedic point that cheapens the overarching drama.

I suppose in some perspectives this is entirely acceptable because it's delivering short-term payouts of humor instead of the longer-term dramatic payoff that I (personally) have been hoping for? My stance may be a bit bitter, here, and I'll aknowledge that my perspective may be slipping. I have an admitted bias against creators who are protected from genuine criticism by zealous fans (which you do not seem to be, but my bias is what it is, and is easily spurred by things that even seem to be that -- so my apologies).

I feel that earlier comics were much better at storytelling without continually deriding the heroes. I also don't think the Order is awesome, but that's more due to recent narrative contrivance than general disinterest.

I suppose, in my view, Roy already learned enough from being killed, so making him fail when he does his best.... It's just a personal thing; I loathe schadenfreude because it brings to mind unpleasant reminders to how much of my own life has gone. (Which is a personal bias, and probably not reasonable, but ... it is what it is.)


Edit: Bulldog Psion, thank you for that analysis; it very neatly encapsulates many of my own complaints. That same Thog vs. Roy fight is where I feel the comic of late took a very severe downturn.

[Smolder]

Don't worry, folks. The regenerationating sucks, but notice that Tarquin still has some red on him, indicating that he's not healing too fast that a few more coordinated attacks like the one in the last panel of the previous comic couldn't seriously cramp his style.

In fact, all of the standing around and talking about who's under the mask is only playing into his hands, because they keep wasting rounds they could be attacking. Tarquin wouldn't have knocked Roy down if Roy hadn't wasted his turn removing the helmet.

[Math_Mage]

As for your other point I agree the Order is on slope to gag-dom and the whole thing feels a tad to rail roaded in their perspective. They need a break indeed.

This is largely an illusion caused by the slow update schedule, IMO. It won't feel nearly as much this way when this section of the comic is done and you go back and reread these strips all at once. I mean, it's been barely 10 strips since these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html) drama-heavy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) moments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html), and you're already worried that the strip is becoming too much about gags? :smallconfused:

Let Rich pace the comic. There's plenty of seriousness to come, I can guarantee you that right now.

[Gift Jeraff]

If Nale isn't supposed to be tougher than Xykon, then he's had far too much screen time already. Off him and get on with the story, for gosh sakes.How is that possible if the character is required to live for the story to go on?

I'd hate to see the Linear Guild go. Xykon's my favorite character but Team Evil's subplot is so far removed from the protagonists it'd be kinda uninteresting.

[Bulldog Psion]

How is that possible if the character is required to live for the story to go on?

I'd hate to see the Linear Guild go. Xykon's my favorite character but Team Evil's subplot is so far removed from the protagonists it'd be kinda uninteresting.

Yes, I can see that if you like Nale, that's quite true.

Still, some kind of resolution to something would probably help to lift off the feeling of "aaaaargh" that I've been getting from the whole desert arc. I mean, what have we had so far --

*Order searches for a long time and finds nothing.
*Order goes to town to find out something, gets arrested instead.
*Meet Tarquin, Elan can't beat him, he doesn't defeat the OotS but doesn't really help them, either.
*Bounty hunters get out of jail free. I felt sorry for them, but having them wing off into the sunset rather than die was yet another vague, indefinite loose end to an essentially pointless plot line.
*Roy beats Thog in a totally unsatisfying, bizarre way.
*On top of that, we have no idea if Thog is alive or not, and at this point, who cares.
*Linear Guild is apparently defeated, but bounces back instantly with T's help and once again catches the OotS at a total disadvantage.
*Ian Starshine and friend head off to parts unknown for reasons unknown leaving the Bozzok, kidnap, and weird behavior of Geoff all unresolved question marks.
*Order comes to pyramid and spends a while searching to once again find -- absolutely nothing.
*Linear guild rematch plus T dragging out his identity revelation to the point of "oh, who cares".

The only resolution was Team Evil -- which doesn't help with the meandering of the main plotline. I'll feel better about it when something happens, but it's like nothing has been resolved. For, like, years.

But I'll never like that Roy vs. Thog outcome, I'm afraid. :smallfrown:

[Math_Mage]

Yes, I can see that if you like Nale, that's quite true.

Still, some kind of resolution to something would probably help to lift off the feeling of "aaaaargh" that I've been getting from the whole desert arc. I mean, what have we had so far --

*Order searches for a long time and finds nothing.
*Order goes to town to find out something, gets arrested instead.
*Meet Tarquin, Elan can't beat him, he doesn't defeat the OotS but doesn't really help them, either.
*Bounty hunters get out of jail free. I felt sorry for them, but having them wing off into the sunset rather than die was yet another vague, indefinite loose end to an essentially pointless plot line.
*Roy beats Thog in a totally unsatisfying, bizarre way.
*On top of that, we have no idea if Thog is alive or not, and at this point, who cares.
*Linear Guild is apparently defeated, but bounces back instantly with T's help and once again catches the OotS at a total disadvantage.
*Ian Starshine and friend head off to parts unknown for reasons unknown leaving the Bozzok, kidnap, and weird behavior of Geoff all unresolved question marks.
*Order comes to pyramid and spends a while searching to once again find -- absolutely nothing.
*Linear guild rematch plus T dragging out his identity revelation to the point of "oh, who cares".

The only resolution was Team Evil -- which doesn't help with the meandering of the main plotline. I'll feel better about it when something happens, but it's like nothing has been resolved. For, like, years.

But I'll never like that Roy vs. Thog outcome, I'm afraid. :smallfrown:

I'll agree to disagree with you on the Roy vs. Thog fight. I also found the introduction of the various familial themes to be more satisfying and interesting than "aaaaaaargh". And I wouldn't characterize the entire dead Draketooth family as "nothing".

That said, it does feel like we're approaching a number of the loose ends you pointed out. Personally, I'm looking forward to it. By no means am I annoyed that they haven't already been resolved.

[WindStruck]

Who here thinks that Tarquin could exert his will to roll 20's every time and some people here still would claim he's done nothing special?

[Gift Jeraff]

The only resolution was Team Evil -- which doesn't help with the meandering of the main plotline.Yeah, I think the fact that the biggest resolutions in the current book (finding the phylactery, crushing the Resistance, and killing Tsukiko) had almost nothing to do with the heroes only increases the feeling that they accomplish nothing.

[rgrekejin]

I agree. Their victories were a bit more solid in the early days of the comic, yet it never felt like they were unearned. Nowadays, they're inevitably separated, outmatched, and basically put at every disadvantage, and then win through a series of events so contrived that it doesn't feel like they won, just that they won the lottery.

How about that time that Roy defeated Xykon by throwing him in to the gate? Or the time that they caused Nale to lose control of the previous-edition monsters by rolling a natural twenty? Or the time V was saved from certain Death Knight-y death by a random falling dragon head? Let's face it: when they're not facing random mooks, the Order is almost always overmatched, and they win by taking advantage of their surroundings, or exploiting some other fortuitous event. And that's the way the comic has always been.


I mean, Roy was totally pulverized by Thog for most of the fight, and then he won because his flesh and bone head is apparently so hard that it can be forced through a solid rock pillar rather than bursting on the outside like a melon. Yes, I know, somebody is going to say "but it's a fantasy story, so don't look for realism here", but at a certain point, it just gets cheesy if someone can headbutt down a pillar at a convenient moment and the foe who outmatched him is destroyed by a "rocks fall, everybody dies" moment. It doesn't even feel like Roy won -- it feels more like the author painted himself into a corner by making Thog too tough to beat logically, and came up with a truly half-baked, illogical way for Roy to "win". Totally unsatisfying.

Fine, I won't tell you "It's a fantasy story, don't look for realism". Instead, I'll ask for some internal consistency in your complaints. You're fine with Mr. Scruffy punting a dog through a wall (even with a belt of giant's strength)? You're fine with Roy surviving Xykon's door with ten billion traps? With Thog being able to rip apart a jail cell with his bare hands? But Roy being slammed in to a wall so hard that it breaks the wall... that's what breaks the suspension of disbelief for you? Really? Okay. Seriously, though, that happens in action movies that aren't explicitly fantasy.

On another note, I must say that people seem to have unrealistic expectations for Roy. If he wins the fight with his intelligence, by using the environment against his opponent in a clever way, people say that he didn't "earn" his win because... why, exactly? Because he didn't fight fair? Because he didn't just stand there and trade blows with Thog until one of them fell over dead? But if Roy had done that, people would just be complaining that Roy really is just a dumb fighter after all, since he never uses his intelligence in battle. Poor guy just can't win. Oh well. You can't please people who are determined not to be pleased.


At this point, I'd personally like to see either the Linear Guild or the Order wiped out permanently, because it's getting so frustrating seeing the Sisyphean struggle between them, filled with contrived circumstances and the inability to bring any kind of closure. If the Order is so incompetent that they can never win against a B-list villain like Nale, let them die. If Nale isn't supposed to be tougher than Xykon, then he's had far too much screen time already. Off him and get on with the story, for gosh sakes.

Yes. That's why I'd bet money that this gate is going to be the last stand for the Linear Guild. They've gotten about as strong as they can realistically get, and dying in the battle for the penultimate Gate makes sense, story-wise. Sure, Nale or Sabine might live on and influence the story later on, but I'd be surprised if this was not the end for the Guild.


By the way, when was the last time a plotline was actually resolved in this story? Would it be Roy's resurrection? I don't think the Order has accomplished anything, except nothing, since they came to this continent.

Well... I suppose that depends on what you're counting as a plotline. the Azure City Resistance got their plotline resolved. They got it resolved hard. Tsukiko has reached the end of her narrative, although it was debatable as to whether or not she truly had a plotline. But we're clearly moving towards the end of some plotlines. We can see the end of V's familicide plotline taking shape. I've theorized above that the Linear Guild are about to take their final curtain call. This is one more gate to scratch off the list. What, really, were you expecting? The plot is moving forward. Sure, it's moving a little slowly because we're in a fight scene, and because there haven't been a lot of updates lately with all the kickstarter work, but the story has been moving forward by leaps and bounds since the Order left the Empire.

edit: Mostly ninja'd.

[ti'esar]

That was unexpectedly hilarious, both in the sense that it was quite unexpected and in that it was funnier then I would have expected. Still not sure why Tarquin is so concerned with hiding his identity (clearly, he's not just trying to convince them he's specifically Thog), though I honestly doubt this mask will be more then a one-or-two-strip gag - he's still going to get his cover blown soon.


EDIT: I see much more negative comments on that than normally. I think you guys are nervous because we're having slow updates, and so are reacting badly to something that don't advance the plot for another week.


This is largely an illusion caused by the slow update schedule, IMO. It won't feel nearly as much this way when this section of the comic is done and you go back and reread these strips all at once. I mean, it's been barely 10 strips since these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html) drama-heavy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) moments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html), and you're already worried that the strip is becoming too much about gags? :smallconfused:

Let Rich pace the comic. There's plenty of seriousness to come, I can guarantee you that right now.

I don't think the "slow" updates have anything to do with it (I don't think the updates are even that slow, but that's getting into against-the-rules territory), because I don't think we are seeing more negative comments then usual. There's just a couple of particularly vocal people (not that I mean this in an insulting way) commenting lately.

I do think people - thoughout OOTS - have had a serious problem with the idea of "pacing", though.

Personally, my feelings on where this is going are best summed up here:


It's funny. The same "idol worship" can be applied to Tarquin, considering the posts that insist he's the most competent thing ever/Epic level/Neutral/deserves to win/etc.

Personally, I feel the heroes are going to lose this one, but I also think Tarquin's competence is intentionally getting built up by the comic only to come gloriously crashing down.

[bguy]

And, pulling off a helmet like that in the middle of a fight should be close to impossible. Those things were strapped on securely specifically so someone couldn't just lift it off and split your skull. I suppose you could wrestle it off by applying enough force to snap a heavy, buckled leather strap or two, but that would be extremely hard to do on an active opponent who was trying to kill you rather than standing there passively. And it might not work anyway -- leather is pretty tough.

Doesn't Roy have a Belt of Giant Strength? He can apply a lot more force to snapping the strap then even an exceptionally strong normal human could.

[Bulldog Psion]

Fine, I won't tell you "It's a fantasy story, don't look for realism". Instead, I'll ask for some internal consistency in your complaints. You're fine with Mr. Scruffy punting a dog through a wall (even with a belt of giant's strength)? You're fine with Roy surviving Xykon's door with ten billion traps? With Thog being able to rip apart a jail cell with his bare hands? But Roy being slammed in to a wall so hard that it breaks the wall... that's what breaks the suspension of disbelief for you? Really? Okay. Seriously, though, that happens in action movies that aren't explicitly fantasy.

edit: Mostly ninja'd.

Well, okay, I guess you've probably just successfully pointed out to me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Or that I just dislike the comic and should probably stop reading it.

Thanks, and sorry for any ruffled feathers I might have caused. I'll just shut up before I reveal myself as being even dumber (and no, I'm not speaking ironically here). :smallredface:

[LordofNaught]

You know, in all honest we really, and I mean REALLY should have seen that coming. I mean, come one, Tarquain wearing a second mask in case of losing his helmet? It was so obvious we all overlooked it. Bravo Giant. Even though you will either never read this or not respond, I am once again impressed with your ability to catch is all, all us schemers and thinkers on this forum, off guard.

Plus, the "Nope!" was a nice touch. I hope it won't be inconvieniant for you to draw for however long you keep it.

[Masamichi]

Who here thinks that Tarquin could exert his will to roll 20's every time and some people here still would claim he's done nothing special?

It's not complete Marty Stu territory yet. Xykon showing up and Tarquin sacrificing himself just to thwart him would be that. I ... think the creator wouldn't go that far. I'd like to think he'd reign things in before that, at least.


On another note, I must say that people seem to have unrealistic expectations for Roy. If he wins the fight with his intelligence, by using the environment against his opponent in a clever way, people say that he didn't "earn" his win because... why, exactly? Because he didn't fight fair? Because he didn't just stand there and trade blows with Thog until one of them fell over dead? But if Roy had done that, people would just be complaining that Roy really is just a dumb fighter after all, since he never uses his intelligence in battle. Poor guy just can't win. Oh well. You can't please people who are determined not to be pleased.

Because, as has been said elsewhere in this thread, that 'victory' quite frankly came across as a total ass pull, not any miracle of planning. Yes, Roy's last-ditch desparation/convenience plan did work, but only after all his more thought-out plans failed in a completely one-sided fight. One that was cheapened by the point of Thog's rage ending before he was hit by the falling rubble anyway

In fact, every bit of planning right up until Thog handed the victory to Roy by throwing him through the wall was explicitly overcome with raw power. The deconstruction was further (and gratingly) underscored by Thog (of all beings!) giving clear and valid arguments as to why Roy's line of reasoning was faulty. If you find that satisfying, then I suppose more power to you -- to me, it feels empty, and (as again, was stated elswhere), hollow and unearned.

I suppose it feels like (in game terms) the GM realized he'd introduced too powerful a foe and backpedaled at the last minute to overcome his gaffe ("Oh, uh, you're thrown through a wall into a room full of pillars with a heavy stone ceiling!").

Moreover, someone compared Roy vs. Thog to Roy vs. the reach weapon guy and the cliff. One really important difference there is that the cliff thing took all of, what, two comics? And Roy vs. Thog stretched on for how many?

But to point out something you brought up yourself, you pointed out several places where the Order has been victorious. The thing you're overlooking is that all of those events were in the past, suggesting an unfortunate downward trend in heroic competence (or an equally unfortunate updward trend in villanous competence).

To put it most simply: I don't enjoy reading about the main characters becoming less effective as time goes on, which absolutely feels like it's what's going on here.


Yes. That's why I'd bet money that this gate is going to be the last stand for the Linear Guild. They've gotten about as strong as they can realistically get, and dying in the battle for the penultimate Gate makes sense, story-wise. Sure, Nale or Sabine might live on and influence the story later on, but I'd be surprised if this was not the end for the Guild.

I would not accept such a bet, but only because I'd feel bad about taking your money. Nale has plot immunity; if he hasn't been killed for any of his other shenanigans before, I have a hard time believing that's suddenly going to change here. Even if the creator did have the guts to do it, I would counter bet-you further real money that he'd come back faster than you can say, "Sabine and a 5000gp diamond."

If I'm wrong, I would be truly and utterly shocked. As a character, Nale is the lead of an incredibly annoying, "exist solely to kick the PC's teeth in," troupe. Seriously ... the 'optimized specifically to combat V' wizard is nearly as bad, with that whole, '"Well, cleverness and patience win the day against your unreasonable level of power and planing!" "Lolno, elemental plane of ranch dressing,"' bit.


What, really, were you expecting?

Really, I was expecting that after all of the beatdowns, the Order would have learned enough to plan appropriately, not more of the same, "Your planning is meaningless in the face of favored characters." They've suffered the necessary humiliations to grow as characters already. Belaboring the point is just irritating.

Edit: spelling

[sims796]

How about that time that Roy defeated Xykon by throwing him in to the gate? Or the time that they caused Nale to lose control of the previous-edition monsters by rolling a natural twenty? Or the time V was saved from certain Death Knight-y death by a random falling dragon head? Let's face it: when they're not facing random mooks, the Order is almost always overmatched, and they win by taking advantage of their surroundings, or exploiting some other fortuitous event. And that's the way the comic has always been.

And that is what we are upset about. It gets annoying, and spreads that feeling of "saved by the plot". And that should never be a reason to explain a victory.


Fine, I won't tell you "It's a fantasy story, don't look for realism". Instead, I'll ask for some internal consistency in your complaints. You're fine with Mr. Scruffy punting a dog through a wall (even with a belt of giant's strength)? You're fine with Roy surviving Xykon's door with ten billion traps? With Thog being able to rip apart a jail cell with his bare hands? But Roy being slammed in to a wall so hard that it breaks the wall... that's what breaks the suspension of disbelief for you? Really? Okay. Seriously, though, that happens in action movies that aren't explicitly fantasy.

I should ignore this, as I don't have much of a problem with Roy vs Thog. I liked the way it went down. However, yes, we can be perfectly fine with those points, yet not like the way Roy fights Thog. This was a rather serious fight, not made in comedy (like Roy surviving the trapped door), and Roy getting up after the vicious beatdown he suffered from Thog may be jarring for some.


On another note, I must say that people seem to have unrealistic expectations for Roy. If he wins the fight with his intelligence, by using the environment against his opponent in a clever way, people say that he didn't "earn" his win because... why, exactly? Because he didn't fight fair? Because he didn't just stand there and trade blows with Thog until one of them fell over dead? But if Roy had done that, people would just be complaining that Roy really is just a dumb fighter after all, since he never uses his intelligence in battle. Poor guy just can't win. Oh well. You can't please people who are determined not to be pleased.

That's just not fair, and a cop-out. Determined not to be pleased? Really? So they aren't allowed to dislike the way the fight went down because of a hypothetical you made? I personally liked the way it went down, but to say that those that didn't are "determined not to be pleased" is taking it too far.[/QUOTE]

[Euodiachloris]

Well, I, for one, have enjoyed this whole thing, so far. :smallsmile:

Do I know where this fight is going? No.
Do I know it's going somewhere? Yes.
Am I enjoying the jokes both at the Order's, the Guild's and Tarquin's expense? Yes.
Do I think Tarquin is likely to come to a really sticky end that will have a major dose of irony attached? Hell, yes!

Haven't a clue how, though. :smallbiggrin:

Bear with it, folks. As has been said elsewhere: in 6 or so months, when you read this bit back again, it'll hit you differently. :smallsmile:

[konradknox]

Oh crap. I realized what Tarquin is doing.
He's not out here to hurt OOTS, he's here to help them.

That's why he convinced Malack to come along, because he knows Sabine is working for the IFCC and suspects their plot. That's why he couldn't just gank Nale back in the palace. He needs Malack's help to neutralize her.

You see, Tarquin knows that Elan will never accept his gifts knowing that his magic items are made of remains of benevolent creatures. So his plan is to engage the Order early, beat them up plenty, and get them to a stressful point, so that they stop considering origin and nature of Tarquin's items and just loot them off his body.

Haley will remove his mask as Elan accidentally deals the final strike, and Tarquin will reveal that he came here to die. That's why he planted a tracing spell on the magic carpet he gave them. Then, he will tell Malack "you know what to do", and pass away. Belkar will pick up the regeneration ring, Roy will take Tarquin's armor, Durkon will grab his Tarquin's axe. Together with Malack, and Tarquin's items, the OOTS will wipe the floor with LG.

[Whiffet]

Whenever you're losing faith in the direction of the story, whenever you think things are just going downhill and taking too long to reach any kind of resolution, or you think there's no way the Order can get out of any kind of mess, or whatever... I find it helps to look back at old discussion threads and see/remind yourself what people had to say back then.

[ti'esar]

Whenever you're losing faith in the direction of the story, whenever you think things are just going downhill and taking too long to reach any kind of resolution, or you think there's no way the Order can get out of any kind of mess, or whatever... I find it helps to look back at old discussion threads and see/remind yourself what people had to say back then.

Personally, I find that more depressing then helpful - years later and the fans still seem to be underrating Rich's abilities as a storyteller (and especially, as mentioned earlier, his pacing).

I don't mean to pick an argument with the people who are complaining - really, everyone has their own opinion - but I still have to notice the similarity between some of the "Tarquin is a borderline Villain Sue" complaints and numerous reactions in the thread following Xykon's "bouncing ball" trick.

[Masamichi]

I don't mean to pick an argument with the people who are complaining - really, everyone has their own opinion - but I still have to notice the similarity between some of the "Tarquin is a borderline Villain Sue" complaints and numerous reactions in the thread following Xykon's "bouncing ball" trick.

I don't feel you are picking an argument, for what that's worth. I just have this stick that's +5 vs. dead horses, so....

Anyway -- I'll just note that I'm new here; registered just for this thread. I don't know what the drama you're referencing is about, but I do know that I've never felt more compelled to try and share my concerns with the creator of the strip until now. :x

[rgrekejin]

Because, as has been said elsewhere in this thread, that 'victory' quite frankly came across as a total ass pull, not any miracle of planning. Yes, Roy's last-ditch desparation/convenience plan did work, but only after all his more thought-out plans failed in a completely one-sided fight. One that was cheapened by the point of Thog's rage ending before he was hit by the falling rubble anyway

In fact, every bit of planning right up until Thog handed the victory to Roy by throwing him through the wall was explicitly overcome with raw power. The deconstruction was further (and gratingly) underscored by Thog (of all beings!) giving clear and valid arguments as to why Roy's line of reasoning was faulty. If you find that satisfying, then I suppose more power to you -- to me, it feels empty, and (as again, was stated elswhere), hollow and unearned.

All his more thought-out plans? What planning did Roy do, exactly? His entire plan up until the moment he crashed through the floor seemed to have been to hit Thog really hard and hope Thog ran out of hit points before he did. He didn't seem to have much of a plan going in to the fight at all. That's exactly my point: Roy is not some sort of master planner who always goes in to combat with a specific tactic in mind to defeat his opponent. Roy uses his intelligence to take advantage of circumstances as they arise, which in this case meant exploiting his surroundings. So you can't say that Roy's plans for beating Thog were overcome by raw power... Roy didn't really have a plan to begin with. But when circumstance presented him with a way to beat Thog, he was smart enough to recognize it, and take advantage of it. I think that Roy's final remark to the buried-under-a-pile-of-rubble Thog serves as the appropriate final rebuke to the arguments Thog presented in the arena. Roy's line of reasoning was not faulty... it won him the fight! Roy does not, and likely never will, go in to fights with complete plans for how he's going to take down his foe. But he's adaptable, and thinks on his feet, and that's what mattered here.


But to point out something you brought up yourself, you pointed out several places where the Order has been victorious. The thing you're overlooking is that all of those events were in the past, suggesting an unfortunate downward trend in heroic competence (or an equally unfortunate updward trend in villanous competence).

To put it most simply: I don't enjoy reading about the main characters becoming less effective as time goes on, which absolutely feels like it's what's going on here.

Well, to each his own, I suppose, though I think it is odd to expect the Order to emerge victorious in the middle of a plot arc. But at this stage in the game, both the Order and their enemies are highly competent. In specific, the Linear Guild has their act much more together than at any point in the past. I don't think it should be alarming that the Order is struggling against better competition. In fact, I'd be irritated if the villains remained stagnant.


I would not accept such a bet, but only because I'd feel bad about taking your money. Nale has plot immunity; if he hasn't been killed for any of his other shenanigans before, I have a hard time believing that's suddenly going to change here. Even if the creator did have the guts to do it, I would counter bet-you further real money that he'd come back faster than you can say, "Sabine and a 5000gp diamond."

If I'm wrong, I would be truly and utterly shocked. As a character, Nale is the lead of an incredibly annoying, "exist solely to kick the PC's teeth in," troupe.

Nale or Sabine may survive, but I fully expect this Gate to be the end of the Linear Guild as a major player. Perhaps I am wrong, but this seems like the place for the second-rate villain to make his stand, before the big showdown with Team Evil at the final Gate. I am not so convinced that Nale's stooges have any part to play in the plot beyond that, or, if they do, that it will be a major part. I suppose I have no way of convincing you of any of this, but, if it were true, would it help?


And that is what we are upset about. It gets annoying, and spreads that feeling of "saved by the plot". And that should never be a reason to explain a victory.

To be fair, the more blatant examples of being saved by the plot have mostly occurred earlier on in the story. If anything, they've been decreasing lately to correspond to the Order's increased effectiveness. And, more to the point, recent examples of "saved by the plot" are only debatably so, whereas no one can really argue that the plot saved V's butt against that Death Knight. In my opinion, Thog/Roy was absolutely not an example of saved by the plot. And most other recent examples are equally questionable. Heck, Z's survival against V may have been an example of this sort of thing actually working against the order.


That's just not fair, and a cop-out. Determined not to be pleased? Really? So they aren't allowed to dislike the way the fight went down because of a hypothetical you made? I personally liked the way it went down, but to say that those that didn't are "determined not to be pleased" is taking it too far.

Of course you can like or not like the way a particular fight went down however you wish. It is not my place to say. But the example I gave is not a hypothetical, it is illustrated on this thread. When Roy uses his brains to make the environment work against Thog, he is accused of not "earning" the victory. If he uses his intelligence, he's apparently cheating somehow. If he doesn't use his intelligence... well, then he really is just a big dumb fighter, isn't he?


Well, okay, I guess you've probably just successfully pointed out to me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Or that I just dislike the comic and should probably stop reading it.

Thanks, and sorry for any ruffled feathers I might have caused. I'll just shut up before I reveal myself as being even dumber (and no, I'm not speaking ironically here). :smallredface:

...you know, I probably deserved that. :smalltongue: But I honestly wonder why it is this one thing, out of all the possible things, that seems to be bothering people. I'm legitimately curious about what it is about it that makes it different from all the other physically improbable things that happen in this comic.

[Chess Tyrant]

Oh crap. I realized what Tarquin is doing.
He's not out here to hurt OOTS, he's here to help them.

That's why he convinced Malack to come along, because he knows Sabine is working for the IFCC and suspects their plot. That's why he couldn't just gank Nale back in the palace. He needs Malack's help to neutralize her.

You see, Tarquin knows that Elan will never accept his gifts knowing that his magic items are made of remains of benevolent creatures. So his plan is to engage the Order early, beat them up plenty, and get them to a stressful point, so that they stop considering origin and nature of Tarquin's items and just loot them off his body.

Haley will remove his mask as Elan accidentally deals the final strike, and Tarquin will reveal that he came here to die. That's why he planted a tracing spell on the magic carpet he gave them. Then, he will tell Malack "you know what to do", and pass away. Belkar will pick up the regeneration ring, Roy will take Tarquin's armor, Durkon will grab his Tarquin's axe. Together with Malack, and Tarquin's items, the OOTS will wipe the floor with LG.

Of course, given that Malack is the one holding up the Control Winds spell and Tarquin probably has near-unlimited access to magic items and scrolls (Dimensional Anchor and Dimension Lock come to mind) it wouldn't be hard for him to crush Nale/Sabine/Zz'dtri without getting himself killed and causing major damage to the Order while he's at it. It seems a little... Needlessly complicated.

[Masamichi]

All his more thought-out plans? What planning did Roy do, exactly? His entire plan up until the moment he crashed through the floor seemed to have been to hit Thog really hard and hope Thog ran out of hit points before he did. [...] Roy does not, and likely never will, go in to fights with complete plans for how he's going to take down his foe. But he's adaptable, and thinks on his feet, and that's what mattered here.

Perhaps I overstated this. Roy went in with the expecation that he'd win and had a strategy. It was then demeaned and belittled by Thog beating him up both physically, and in the field of debate, which (IMO) felt like it was just incidental to an unfortunate author's tract about statting, and how int really is useless for a fighter against a barbarian.

I don't feel that it's a great showing for the first significant battle that Roy gets into after his (one would hope) awesome afterlife training is a one-sided beatdown that he survives not with his skill or techniques ... but architecture that he only found because he out-HPed a raging barbarian (it feels like a weak, cheap, and clumsy victory to me).

But I don't think it's productive to keep arguing this; it's not really on-topic for the current thread, and.... Well, let's step away from this whole front of discussion. We disagree, and while I doubt you intend it, it very much feels like you're trying to 'correct' the opinions that don't match yours. I may be doing the same (and not realizing it, because this is becoming more heated than I'm comfortable with), which I don't particularly enjoy finding myself doing, so my apologies for that.

At this point, I believe my stance was well established, even if you don't find it palatable. Sorry we couldn't find common ground on that one. :\


Well, to each his own, I suppose, though I think it is odd to expect the Order to emerge victorious in the middle of a plot arc. But at this stage in the game, both the Order and their enemies are highly competent. In specific, the Linear Guild has their act much more together than at any point in the past. I don't think it should be alarming that the Order is struggling against better competition. In fact, I'd be irritated if the villains remained stagnant.

Contrariwise, I find it surprising that it's acceptable that the heroes suffer consistent defeats so long as they win at the end.... Not that this is wrong, but it's outside of my personal range of tolerance.

I think we're looking at mismatched expectations in terms of competence? I want to read about competent characters overcoming difficulties and achieving their goals. Characters that survive and accomplish nothing that feels meaningful until the very end tends to frustrate me. Schadenfreude isn't my thing, though I can tolerate small doses; I probably have an unreasonable level of empathy for the main characters.


Nale or Sabine may survive, but I fully expect this Gate to be the end of the Linear Guild as a major player. Perhaps I am wrong, but this seems like the place for the second-rate villain to make his stand, before the big showdown with Team Evil at the final Gate. I am not so convinced that Nale's stooges have any part to play in the plot beyond that, or, if they do, that it will be a major part. I suppose I have no way of convincing you of any of this, but, if it were true, would it help?

I may be wrong, but my gut feeling is that the author simply likes Nale too much to discard him regardless of what happens next. I'm personally tired of him, and echo the previously offered sentiment that if the Order cannot overcome a minor villain like him, they've got no chance against a more significant threat. What happens to his lackeys is of even less interest to me, seeing as they aren't really foils as much as raw counters.

For what it's worth, I recognize that my expectations are probably an increasingly poor match for the comic. I honestly am fully ready to give up on reading it; where I used to enjoy it greatly, more and more it's just annoying watching the Order get trounced. It's getting to the point where I'm reading it more out of a grudge than any form of appreciation.... ("How much worse can it get?")

From where I am, probably the entire thing is unredeemable. I'm not trying to sway anyone, but I felt the author (and I don't know, maybe others) would be interested in seeing where the turning point for loss-of-interest was? Well. I've probably done that, so I suppose there's no real purpose to commenting further.

Edit: Spelling, my eternal foe.

[ti'esar]

I think we're looking at mismatched expectations in terms of competence?

I think it's safe to say that you're looking at different definitions in terms of competence (and quite a few other things, for that matter) then most of the other people here.

[Jabberwok]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0798.html

Roy did have a plan. He could have busted out and fought the entire LG with the Order. But he chose to fight Thog and send Belkar alone to distract Tarquin.
He was biding for time. Time for his order to beat out the guild while he was getting tossed around by Thog.
I think the fact he won against Thog was a nice bonus, he showed Thog who was the better warrior. But the truly important victory was already made in this strip. He trusted his team.

[Mike_the_Mystic]

I don't know if anyone else has referenced it, but the reveal made me think of this "Nope" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14)

[Warren Dew]

Where did Roy get "Leads with the other foot" from? Everyone always faces the camera, so everyone changes what foot they lead with depending on if they're facing left or right.
It was a joke. At least, I found it funny.

[Whiffet]

Personally, I find that more depressing then helpful - years later and the fans still seem to be underrating Rich's abilities as a storyteller (and especially, as mentioned earlier, his pacing).

I don't mean to pick an argument with the people who are complaining - really, everyone has their own opinion - but I still have to notice the similarity between some of the "Tarquin is a borderline Villain Sue" complaints and numerous reactions in the thread following Xykon's "bouncing ball" trick.

Eh, maybe. That is a bit depressing. On the other hand, it can remind you that the things people really didn't like back then aren't considered a big deal now. So the things people don't like now will one day not be considered a big deal.

Besides, the more people underrate what Rich has planned, the more everyone will be caught off-guard when the time comes for him to blow us away.

[Masamichi]

I think it's safe to say that you're looking at different definitions in terms of competence (and quite a few other things, for that matter) then most of the other people here.

:smallfrown:

Well ... that confirms there's nothing to be gained by remaining here, then, so thanks for that...

[Euodiachloris]

:smallfrown:

Well ... that confirms there's nothing to be gained by remaining here, then, so thanks for that...

<free hugs, Masamichi>

Nobody was picking at you, personally, you know. Stick with us. Next time, you might be surprised who has your back in an argument. These forums are like that. :smallbiggrin:

[ti'esar]

:smallfrown:

Well ... that confirms there's nothing to be gained by remaining here, then, so thanks for that...

I'm not trying to be rude. It just seems like the comic you're reading doesn't really match the same one most of us are.

[Whiffet]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0798.html

Roy did have a plan. He could have busted out and fought the entire LG with the Order. But he chose to fight with Thog and send Belkar alone to distract Tarquin.
He was biding for time. Time for his order to beat out the guild while he was getting tossed around by Thog.
I think the fact he won against Thog was a nice bonus, he showed Thog who was the better warrior. But the truly important victory was already made in this strip. He trusted his team.

Ah, man. I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion on the Roy vs. Thog fight, but I love that strip so much! Seriously, we see Roy do the arrow trick, notice V and Z, make the decision people keep forgetting about (drag the fight out as long as possible so the Linear Guild could be dealt with without drawing suspicion from Tarquin), and creatively use the empty bottle. He demonstrates awareness of his surroundings and an ability to think on the fly. The arrow and glass also point at how he's able to use aspects of his environment effectively. In short, he shows how a fighter can be intelligent.

[rgrekejin]

We disagree, and while I doubt you intend it, it very much feels like you're trying to 'correct' the opinions that don't match yours. I may be doing the same (and not realizing it, because this is becoming more heated than I'm comfortable with), which I don't particularly enjoy finding myself doing, so my apologies for that.

I apologize if I've been rude or made you uncomfortable. Must be my exceedingly lawful nature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) at work. :smallsmile:

[ti'esar]

Ah, man. I really didn't want to get involved in this discussion on the Roy vs. Thog fight, but I love that strip so much! Seriously, we see Roy do the arrow trick, notice V and Z, make the decision people keep forgetting about (drag the fight out as long as possible so the Linear Guild could be dealt with without drawing suspicion from Tarquin), and creatively use the empty bottle. He demonstrates awareness of his surroundings and an ability to think on the fly. The arrow and glass also point at how he's able to use aspects of his environment effectively. In short, he shows how a fighter can be intelligent.

Same feeling here.

[jere7my]

Contrariwise, I find it surprising that it's acceptable that the heroes suffer consistent defeats so long as they win at the end.... Not that this is wrong, but it's outside of my personal range of tolerance.

Well, that's your call. But that's pretty much the definition of dramatic structure. Google for what Tolkien called "eucatastrophe," or watch The Empire Strikes Back, which is a 100% victory-free movie.

[Vladislav]

I think I figured out how Tarquin is able to do all those things - throw enemies around, make many attacks, heal, etc. The source of his power, if you will...

He's a 4th edition character ...

[ti'esar]

Well, that's your call. But that's pretty much the definition of dramatic structure. Google for what Tolkien called "eucatastrophe," or watch The Empire Strikes Back, which is a 100% victory-free movie.

I think that depends on how you define "victory". Just because the heroes' situation should generally grow worse doesn't mean they can't score victories along the way. To use your example of Empire, we have the Rebels downing several walkers at Hoth (including one by our hero single-handedly) and most of the escape transports getting away. It's not a straight-out "bad guys win, no bright spot" scenario.

Of course, neither is an OOTS arc, at least in my view.

[snikrept]

Hmm, else where in the comic older characters are mentioned as being from older editions though

r.e. Victory: the bad guys are 0 for 3 now at gate capture. Nothing but losses for them regarding the main plot.

[theNater]

Roy went in with the expecation that he'd win and had a strategy.
Roy explicitly did not have a strategy. When Thog asked him how he'd use his intelligence in combat, Roy responds "I'll figure something out, that's sort of the whole point. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0791.html)"

You can feel however you like about the fight, but you can't reasonably claim Roy's strategy was beaten. His plan, such as it was, was to figure something out, and when an opportunity presented itself, he took it. A lesser fighter would have died under the stands.

[ti'esar]

r.e. Victory: the bad guys are 0 for 3 now at gate capture. Nothing but losses for them regarding the main plot.

Gates blowing up is not exactly a "win" for the good guys, though. But I think the point of sims796 and co is more that the Order constantly loses until the end of each arc, making that eventual victory cheap and unsatisfying.

[FujinAkari]

Gates blowing up is not exactly a "win" for the good guys, though. But I think the point of sims796 and co is more that the Order constantly loses until the end of each arc, making that eventual victory cheap and unsatisfying.

This would be a good point if it had any relationship with fact. However, the sand slaves, Thog, the Linear Guild (all three fights), the bandits, the island demon, kubota, Crystal...

When does the Order actually lose again?

[ti'esar]

I didn't say I agreed with their position (I don't), just that the bad guys losing at the end of an arc didn't invalidate it.

[Murray]

One of the things illustrated by the turn of events in the arena fight, was that Roy isn't just a Fighter, but a leader. Thog ultimately is just looking out for Thog's interests, while Roy has the responsibility of not just managing his screwball adventuring party, but also taking down Xykon, saving the world, and keeping Belkar from butchering innocent people.

And while Roy may have 'lost' the battle in the arena, his party 'won' the overall encounter and then moved towards their primary goal. In the larger picture, The Order seems actually reasonably okay at winning battles, but fairly dismal when it comes to winning the 'war'. This may be disheartening for people used to episodic storytelling, but on the epic scale, each hollow victory adds to the overall suspense and ups the stakes each time.

If the victory is too easy, is it truly a victory?

[Ravenfeather]

Dunno if anyone has brought this up so far, but: shouldn't Belkar be able to "tell by the smell" who "Thog" really is? He's just as close to Tarquin as he was to Nale in #383, when he noticed almost instantly.

[Icedaemon]

The problem with Roy being a high-intelligence fighter is that he has not built himself to make the most use of it. Tarquin seems to have though. While it's too late for Roy to be retaking feats, he could at least hopefully take some pointers from this fight. For all his claims to cleverness, in fights he has tended for the straightforward dumb protagonist tactics, such as trying to fight from atop a zombie dragon.

[Math_Mage]

Dunno if anyone has brought this up so far, but: shouldn't Belkar be able to "tell by the smell" who "Thog" really is? He's just as close to Tarquin as he was to Nale in #383, when he noticed almost instantly.

Belkar has far more experience with Elan's scent, and as such the difference was more noticeable. Belkar hasn't spent much time with either Tarquin or Thog's scent.

[FujinAkari]

Dunno if anyone has brought this up so far, but: shouldn't Belkar be able to "tell by the smell" who "Thog" really is? He's just as close to Tarquin as he was to Nale in #383, when he noticed almost instantly.

Instantly? It took over a day, and he only noticed because he had been around Elan for like, a year or more. Knowing that someone doesn't smell like your best friend is a lot easier than knowing someone doesn't smell like a half orc you fought once. (I don't think Belkar was ever in close proximity to Thog other than the first fight)

[Murray]

It isn't so much that Belkar can identify Thog or Tarquin by scent, more if he can tell the difference between a half-orc and a human. And if he can tell, then Belkar certainly has to notice it, and not assume that Thog has just been wearing human clothing.

[Valyrian]

It's not entirely clear when Belkar saw through Nale's ruse if he identified him because he smelled like Nale or because he did not smell like Elan. Maybe it takes a while to get to know a smell, and Belkar doesn't know Tarquins, Thogs and Nales smell well enough to recognize it.

Deducing that Nale was Nale when you know it's not Elan was easy because, well, he could see his face and all.

[King of Nowhere]

maybe belkar just wasn't focusing on his nose during the few rounds of battle. maybe he would notice, given a bit more time.

[Scactha]

Which is, ironically, the very thing you incorrectly accused me of. You put words into the mouths of those who dislike Tarquin, calling them children &cetera. I'm going to assume you just got me mixed up with someone else and this whole thing was an untinentional slip; I realize my stance actually does come across as similar to Valyrian's. Did you get us confused? Understandable if so, since we do seem to be in the minority.You are confusing yourself with the person who I originally responded to. I kindly refer back at his(or hers, who knows?) incessant and somehow emotionally evoked defense, as I apprehended it and how it appeared in at least one more more thread than this, of the order which I found grating. Thus I intended a retort in similar vein. Alas, failure was the result which is obvious from this persistent discourse.

[Jay R]

Dunno if anyone has brought this up so far, but: shouldn't Belkar be able to "tell by the smell" who "Thog" really is? He's just as close to Tarquin as he was to Nale in #383, when he noticed almost instantly.

It might be being overpowered by the nearby smell of dozens of mummified corpses. I suspect in that situation, I'd be trying to ignore the scents around me.

[factotum]

Instantly? It took over a day, and he only noticed because he had been around Elan for like, a year or more.

And Nale had to clean himself up first, too.

[Mynoduesp]

The mask looks more like a Kenny (Southpark) jacket/hoodie.
At least, that's what I thought it was until he mentioned it.

[rgrekejin]

Dunno if anyone has brought this up so far, but: shouldn't Belkar be able to "tell by the smell" who "Thog" really is? He's just as close to Tarquin as he was to Nale in #383, when he noticed almost instantly.

Well, "Thog" also said that Nale had stolen the armor and stuff from Tarquin. Belkar was originally thrown off of Nale's scent because he was wearing Elan's clothes, which were saturated with Elan's scent. So even if Belkar did smell Tarquin, maybe he's just assuming it's coming from the stolen armor.

[Omergideon]

By the goves it is annoying when the system eats a post just as you are trying to send it. Took 10 minutes to write as well.

Still it gives me another chance to enjoy the lively debate on Tarquin and his fight etc, plus Roy et al. For the record, as some know, I dislike Tarquin finding the character too smug to enjoy seeing around, and having none of the charm or humour of our other villains. I also find him to be a drama killer in some ways, for various reasons. This antipathy colours my view of this strip. I will comment on it more below. The strip itself though is fine, not much more than that. The action is decent, but for me there is a big issue that colours my overall perception of events. Still........

The Good:
1) I nearly always praise the art in the comic. In this one though it is more for strip construction than anything else. The Backdrop is of course very nice looking. The action is fluid and the expressions are great. But mostly this is just a solidly drawn, well paced and well constructed comic.
2) Belkar and Elan are hilarious in this strip. The Elan punchline is good. But most of all I loved the Roy/Belkar joke about the arrow. It was a callback done subtly, amusing in the way Belkar emphasised things and perfectly timed. Great comedy there.
3) The Roy/Tarquin interaction was good. Roy was clever and a good leader here (feeding into his "me not dumb fighty guy" character). Tarquin's response of trying to maintain a broken charade was interesting. One could interpret it in many ways based on your personal feeling towards the guy e.g. from "he was flustered and trying to cope" to "he was intentionally playing dumb" and more. Very clever writing.

The Bad:
1) As always this is very much opinion (as is the good). But for me the whole mask under helmet joke failed as humour. It failed for character. And it acted as a tease for a reveal that in turn undercuts one of our protagonists. I'll expand more next, but for now let me simply say I did not find Tarquin's "Nope" funny. This could be due to antipathy, but I think beyond as it is an old joke I never found funny elsewhere it is simply my taste in humour.
2) For me there is a big flaw though. The "reveal" and the regeneration seem to deliberately undercut the legitimate successes of the Order so far. In this fight it does seem like any time they build up steam they have something smack them down quickly and easily. The regeneration means their damage is ignored. The Helmet ruins the triumph of Roy's smarts somewhat. Added to the existing issues it....annnoys me. This is a personal opinion but as this is my personal reaction I feel fine explaining it.

So yeah. **1/2 for me. Decent strip, but with issues that annoy me. Personal ones of course, not objective. But I worry about the Order and my ability to follow and support them if this villain of Tarquin is able to defeat them comprehensively with nary a scratch. IF hurt by them then fine, if not.......I dissaporve.

[Lynn]

The mask looks more like a Kenny (Southpark) jacket/hoodie.
At least, that's what I thought it was until he mentioned it.

It looks more like Mysterion's (http://images.wikia.com/southpark/images/2/26/Mysterion.png) hood to me.

[Gorm_the_DBA]

Nice "reveal".

But.
I'm not aware of any rules regarding ripping off helmets - HOW did Roy manage to do that? Anyone who ever wore a helmet will tell you that these things don't come off just like that, they're integral part of your armor!
Any helmet (regardless in which time and setting) includes straps or other measures to prevent the helmet from slipping, shifting or falling off. (At least, any helmet worth more than a carneval costume.) Helmets are not simple tin pots you put over your head!


You'd think....but you'd be wrong...

Watch the Youtube coverage of last week's "Battle of the Nations" (armored combat...full speed....steel weapons...about as close to Melee as you're gonna get without (much) blood), and note that roughly 1 in 5 fights features someone losing a helm...

Or watch the frequency with which NFL Helmets are taken off (a time or two per game).

Yes, it's not a constant occurrence, but it does happen, and it ain't *that* hard.

[Masamichi]

You are confusing yourself with the person who I originally responded to. I kindly refer back at his(or hers, who knows?) incessant and somehow emotionally evoked defense, as I apprehended it and how it appeared in at least one more more thread than this, of the order which I found grating. Thus I intended a retort in similar vein. Alas, failure was the result which is obvious from this persistent discourse.

I think I resent that implication; I'm clear on who I am, and you did in fact claim that I (specifically, as you quoted me) was 'putting words in other people's mouths'. So, to use your own words against you: I kindly refer you back to this same thread.

This is not me confusing myself for anyone else; this is you accusing me directly of something I have not done ... unless you were confused as to who I was.

Unfortunately, I cannot make this issue clearer for you. If you still don't understand, a policy of mutual avoidance is most probably the only reasonable way to proceed.


I apologize if I've been rude or made you uncomfortable. Must be my exceedingly lawful nature (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html) at work. :smallsmile:

Very well. I can respectfully agree to disagree. I may have made myself unclear; it wasn't your responses that made me uncomfortable, it was how argumentative I feel I must be when I try and defend my own viewpoints that bothers me. As above, it's probably best to practice mutual avoidance (or you can reply to me, if you wish; I don't feel it's constructive on my part to reciprocate, however; apologies for that).


Well, that's your call. But that's pretty much the definition of dramatic structure. Google for what Tolkien called "eucatastrophe," or watch The Empire Strikes Back, which is a 100% victory-free movie.

Um, I missed this, actually, and only discovered it when verifying the points addressed to Scactha; you somehow got my comment as quoted to someone else? Perhaps the 'mistaken identity' issue is more common than I would have expected, and can actually be blamed on the forum itself....

I'll note that I don't consider Tolkien a particularly good storyteller -- though I do feel he was a brilliant world-builder. Anyway, the context seems to be a bit short; I don't think there's anything wrong with the heroes taking a beating on their path to victory, it's just that if nothing they accomplish feels like a genuine victory, then it comes across as more like a beatdown. I don't particularly care to watch a curb-stomp, no matter who's winning (either Boring Invincible Hero or Failure Hero).

I also think I disagree about the movie being victory-free. It did end on a downer, but there were at least some meaningful feeling short-term victories. The storytelling there was strong enough to overcome a feeling that the heroes were fighting a losing battle with no real hope of victory. Trying to bring things back in line ... but that's neither here nor there. The relevant point here (with regard to the comic) is that it feels like so much more time is devoted to watching the heroes get beaten down that it's difficult to maintain a real feeling of hope.

(Let's avoid 'pacing' arguments; the posting rate has no bearing on my viewpoint, personally. It may bother other people, but I'm patient enough to keep perspective even if updates are months apart.)

Going back to movie analogies, your Bruce Willis or Harrison Ford heroes will take a substantial beating on their path to victory, but they will overcome obstacles. Many obstacles -- not just the very final ones. They may have to walk across broken glass barefoot or survive the plane suddenly rolling to get through things -- but that doesn't happen while someone is delivering a diatribe about how ineffective they are at what they're best at (in the context of the narrative; presumable Harrison Ford's character was at least a competent president as well (or perhaps not, if he engendered such enemies ... but this is far from relevant)).

This is a bit hyperbolic, and I suppose parallels could be drawn between Thog v. Roy and one of these types of heroes; to me the personally most grating point in that combat was how drawn out it was (comics, not time between updates) and that it was in parallel to the Order being outmatched in pretty much all of their 1:1 fights, so that by the time Roy's victory did come around, it felt cheap and demeaned. The fact that the Linear Guild was ostensibly surprised and this was 'the best they could do on short notice' doesn't help matters at all.

So ... I feel that this story is slipping on the storytelling strength required to make me feel like the heroes are competent and accomplishing things. I don't have confidence that the cast will manage to overcome their difficulties; I anticipate that some surprise NPC or diabolous ex machina is going to resolve things, not any strength of the heroic cast.


Then again, it's been stated that I evidently don't know what term 'competence' means, as per this entire forum's understanding (bar me, obviously) so take that with a grain of salt. -_-

[sims796]

Well, that's your call. But that's pretty much the definition of dramatic structure. Google for what Tolkien called "eucatastrophe," or watch The Empire Strikes Back, which is a 100% victory-free movie.

Whe...when did I write that?




This would be a good point if it had any relationship with fact. However, the sand slaves, Thog, the Linear Guild (all three fights), the bandits, the island demon, kubota, Crystal...

When does the Order actually lose again?

A few inconsequential victories does not underscore the point. Sand slaves? Bandits? Those wimps?

Crystal is a valid one. Even more so if it had invoved anything to do with the story proper in more than a technical sense, but eh.

And the Linear Guild? That is the point that ti'esar illustrated. A near loss, until a contrived victory.

Don't think I'm hating on the comic at large, mind you, these are relatively minor road bumps for me, but they are road bumps non the less.



So ... I feel that this story is slipping on the storytelling strength required to make me feel like the heroes are competent and accomplishing things. I don't have confidence that the cast will manage to overcome their difficulties; I anticipate that some surprise NPC or diabolous ex machina is going to resolve things, not any strength of the heroic cast.


Then again, it's been stated that I evidently don't know what term 'competence' means, as per this entire forum's understanding (bar me, obviously) so take that with a grain of salt. -_-

This is how I feel about the state of our heroes so far. That is why the last round vs the Linear Guild was good - they seem to have won on their own initiative. Durkon had assistance, but it felt natural. Roy had a potion, but that isn't enough to cheapen his victory. V won purely by his own creativity, but how easily he won after finding out Z's weakness was a tad jarring.

And of course, Mr. Scruffy had the most cleanest victory in the entire series.

[ti'esar]

(Let's avoid 'pacing' arguments; the posting rate has no bearing on my viewpoint, personally. It may bother other people, but I'm patient enough to keep perspective even if updates are months apart.)

Okay, let me clarify that when I say people here have always had a problem with pacing, I'm not talking about the update schedule. Rather, I'm talking about dramatic pacing, and the way people always seem to get upset over anything going wrong for the good guys seems to display a lack of understanding of building tension. The update schedule has nothing to do with it.


Then again, it's been stated that I evidently don't know what term 'competence' means, as per this entire forum's understanding (bar me, obviously) so take that with a grain of salt. -_-

Also, when I said this, I did not mean that you don't understand what competence is. Rather, it's that what you are reading does not seem to match with what the vast majority of the people on here are reading (even the others complaining don't seem to have the same overwhelmingly negative attitude). If it did, I know I wouldn't be following this comic anymore. It was not meant as a slight on your intelligence, and I apologize if it came across that way.

[Math_Mage]

The reason why the update schedule might tie into the concept of dramatic pacing is that people are more likely to perceive a few strips as a long time if the strips are released slowly, cf. a previous poster complaining that OotS is 'sliding towards gag-dom' 10 strips after the Familicide revelation.


And of course, Mr. Scruffy had the most cleanest victory in the entire series.

And the messiest. :smalltongue:

The ease of V's victory over Z once he Dominated the kobold is meant to underscore the weakness of a narrowly optimized build.

[Masamichi]

Okay, let me clarify that when I say people here have always had a problem with pacing, I'm not talking about the update schedule. Rather, I'm talking about dramatic pacing, and the way people always seem to get upset over anything going wrong for the good guys seems to display a lack of understanding of building tension. The update schedule has nothing to do with it.

I may be inferring incorrectly, but your stance seems to be that anyone who doesn't appreciate the story as it is does so because they lack proper understanding of dramatic structure. In that case, yes, the dramatic pacing recently has in fact been poor.

Obviously it's within the tolerances of the people who post in this forum, but I don't find that a meaningful argument. Consider:

Those who post in forums typically represent a token minority of those who participate in the content (readership in this instance), and naturally, almost everyone who came here did so because they enjoyed it (as I used to, and wish to be able to again). So, yes, almost everyone is here because they are fine with how things are.

I feel a need to play the role of devil's advocate, and as mentioned before, creators who are protected from criticism that could help them improve by presumably well-meaning fans are a pet-peeve.

As far as understanding dramatic tension, I edit dramatic works on a daily basis (frequently into the small hours of the morning). In this regard, as I have explained, I feel that the story is slipping and cheapening the character growth/competence of the heroes in favor of one-shot gags (which also accomplish almost nothing but demeaning the supposed heroes and don't move the story along).


Rather, it's that what you are reading does not seem to match with what the vast majority of the people on here are reading (even the others complaining don't seem to have the same overwhelmingly negative attitude). If it did, I know I wouldn't be following this comic anymore.

I don't like the implications that I'm wrong just because I'm more critical. As I've been trying to explain, there are simply different thresholds of tolerance. I'm sure there are others who agree and just wordlessly dropped the comic (perhaps only a handful, but I can't imagine I alone have the viewpoint that I do); how many people feel an obligation to try and let the author know where their viewpoints diverged?

This is fine if the author is only concerned with maintaining the readership evident in these forums, but what if he cares about more? It's on that assumption (that he would care about more than just the posters here) that I offered up a contrasting viewpoint.

I'm sorry if my inability to appreciate what you still do as much as I once did feels like something that needs to be corrected or is unacceptably negative. My intent was to try and provide constructive feedback. If it's that the author (and the forum at large) simply doesn't care, then so be it.

I just don't like the idea that the readership needs to be told that they should be patient and things will work out; if the work were (dramatically) well-paced, it would carry itself without needing to be reinforced by the community and other outside-context justifications. The fact that it doesn't (and this is seen as acceptable) comes across as a major failing to me. In simplest terms: "The work needs to carry itself without outside support."


Perhaps I'm hype-backlashing just because I see almost unilateral support, and even those who are willing to be critical seem to be afraid of upsetting the overwhelming majority.

Edit: Grammar.

[FujinAkari]

Perhaps I'm hype-backlashing just because I see almost unilateral support, and even those who are willing to be critical seem to be afraid of upsetting the overwhelming majority.

When you post an opinion in a hall of open debate, that opinion can, will, and should be challenged by anyone who does not hold it. The volume of the response merely speaks that a lot of people disagree with you.

As for your second "point," I am one of the most critical posters on the forums and take issue with a lot of things. I can promise that very few of us are honestly "afraid" of upsetting others, as anyone who survived the Miko Wars can attest :)

[ti'esar]

misplaced counterarguments


To clarify, I was not, in fact, saying you were wrong. I disagree with you, but I do not honestly consider myself qualified to say which of us is objectively right. I was merely attempting to clear up my points: that when I talk about pacing, I refer to dramatic structure rather then the update schedule, and that when I say you have a different understanding of competence (and so forth), it's not an insult but simply an observation based on the fact that almost everyone else disagrees with you. That doesn't necessarily make our understanding of things right - I think it is, but that was not something I was trying to say with my post.

[Masamichi]

When you post an opinion in a hall of open debate, that opinion can, will, and should be challenged by anyone who does not hold it. The volume of the response merely speaks that a lot of people disagree with you.

"Should" be? Kids these days.... I miss the concept of respect. :\

I also missed the 'debate' tag on the thread (or perhaps in the FAQ/rules); I had thought it was for civil discussion and feedback.

Thank you for clarifying that to me.

[rbetieh]

I would say that this is the Giants most ambitious story arc from a narrative standpoint. That seems to be causing some growing pains for the readership. For me, this arc has me questioning if this story isn't really a coming of age story for Elan (i.e. frodo), instead of a redemption story for Roy (i.e. aragorn). Funny thing is I have become invested in both characters to the point where I might be happy seeing both stories play out, but making them both play out at the same time seems like some crazy Joss Whedon wizzardry to me. And, to top this off, every other protagonist is getting "remembered". V has her 'consequences of power' theme, Haley has her 'family bonds/trust' thing, Belkar has his impending doom, and now we are seeing Mr. Reliable - Durkon get his effective meter knotched back (seems like a 'Crisis of Faith' arc in the works to me). But how do you keep a narrative burrito together without losing quality? I don't know, I read dead philosophers and programming manuals. But, considering just how big a bite this arc is trying to make, I have to say that I remain entertained and engaged in the story.

[WindStruck]

Ok, so you've been forced into a gladiatorial arena fight. What is the master plan supposed to be if you have been stripped of all your possessions, contact with members of your party is extremely limited or nil, and armed guards are everywhere to enforce the fact that you are supposed to hit the other guy till he dies? Make a cannon out of rock rubble and dirt?

[Math_Mage]

As far as understanding dramatic tension, I edit dramatic works on a daily basis (frequently into the small hours of the morning). In this regard, as I have explained, I feel that the story is slipping and cheapening the character growth/competence of the heroes in favor of one-shot gags (which also accomplish almost nothing but demeaning the supposed heroes and don't move the story along).

Regarding competence, all I can say is, the difference between a campaign and a story is that stories have less reason to stick to level-appropriate encounters. And the Order has been in over their heads practically since the story began. That the Order's martial prowess will not be the final word in defeating the long-since epic Xykon should be no surprise, and a strong indicator that this is not a story where the good guys are in control of events. That's not bad, just different. There's a continuum of hero-villain power disparities ranging from Superman (or Doctor Manhattan) to Frodo, and great stories can be told anywhere along that continuum.

Regarding the comic devolving into gags, I have to point out once again that we are less than ten strips from the major dramatic three-strip reveal that the Draketooths were killed by Familicide. Rich has done a consistent job of mixing plot advancement, drama, and gags, and I simply don't see a fundamental shift in the way any of these are treated. Contrast, oh, the shift from Dungeon Crawlin' Fools to NCftPB.

[Smolder]

I just don't like the idea that the readership needs to be told that they should be patient and things will work out; if the work were (dramatically) well-paced, it would carry itself without needing to be reinforced by the community and other outside-context justifications. The fact that it doesn't (and this is seen as acceptable) comes across as a major failing to me. In simplest terms: "The work needs to carry itself without outside support."

Perhaps I'm hype-backlashing just because I see almost unilateral support, and even those who are willing to be critical seem to be afraid of upsetting the overwhelming majority.


But you do recognize that reading a book cover to cover is a different experience than reading one page per week, don't you? With only one page to obsess over, the little details get overblown, picked apart and the larger story arc is obscured.

And I have seen very few participants on this forum who actually shy away from conflict. The problem is that they choose to conflict over things that don't matter, and threads devolve into entire pages of people shouting eachother down.

Let me explain, for everyone on the forum, the difference between a debate and an argument. In a debate, people exchange facts and correct eachothers facts until one side is conclusively proven and everyone agrees*. In an argument, you try to shout your beliefs over the other person, without seriously considering their side. Debates are healthy and lead to enlightenment for everyone. Arguments are wastes of energy and time.

*In modern life, it is often the case that one side is debating and the other side is arguing. The result is that the debater can provide any and all facts and the arguer will not consider them and just continues arguing. "You can't convince a man of the truth when his income depends on him not believing it" is the motto of modern politics. Since no one can win a debate, everyone reverts to arguing.

[Masamichi]

But you do recognize that reading a book cover to cover is a different experience than reading one page per week, don't you? With only one page to obsess over, the little details get overblown, picked apart and the larger story arc is obscured.

I think you miss my point that if the content isn't compelling/positive enough for me to continue reading it, whatever happens next is irrelevant to me (and ostensibly to anyone else who shares this viewpoint). All the belated backpedaling in the world makes no difference for readers that have dropped the story because it was already unsatisfactory, and I don't think it's terribly reasonable to expect the casual reader won't form any opinion at all until the work is complete.


Edit: Spelling. (Muscle memory, why do you betray me so?)

[Math_Mage]

I think you miss my point that if the content isn't compelling/positive enough for me to continue reading it, whatever happens next is irrelevant to me (and ostensibly to anyone else who shares this viewpoint). All the belated backpedaling in the world makes no difference for readers that have dropped the story because it was already unsatisfactory, and I don't think it's terribly reasonable to expect the casual reader won't form any opinion at all until the work is complete.


Edit: Spelling. (Muscle memory, why do you betray me so?)

All right, so let's go back to what makes the content not compelling/positive enough for you to continue reading it. After all, the point here is not that we're trying to make belated excuses for obvious flaws in the comic; the point is that we're discussing whether those flaws exist in the first place.

[Masamichi]

Math_Mage: Sorry -- the belated backpedaling would be from the author addressing the previous issues after they'd become grating, and trying to adjust the tone to compensate for the earlier poor delivery/pacing, not the forum or community. If that came across as an accusation to the community, then I apologize.

I've also explained I feel the work should support itself, so I think that much should be evident in context....

I don't think there's anything to say that hasn't already been covered as far as what didn't work for me.

But since you asked: The 'heroes' simply haven't been portrayed in a light that makes them feel 'heroic' to me lately; there's simply an excess of villainous competence, to the point where one wonders how the heroes can have meaningful victories in the face of what's gone before. And it's been heavily foreshadowed that the heroes can't succeed, and only the fact that incredibly competent villains are going to be busy fighting one-another will give them any leeway to move towards anything constituting a 'win'. Sure, the plot dictates that they'll succeed, so they will.

But will it feel like something earned, or will it just be something that underscores the irrelevance of the team's contributions in the face of major antagonists being too busy infighting? It'd be one thing if Tarquin and Xykon ran into one-another before the Order got to the temple (yes, as written, the Order had to get there first), and then the Order took the opportunity to sneak/charge past them. But as it stands, what's their meaningful contribution going to be?

Instead of the heroes being capable, we get major exposition on the Order getting beat up by someone who exists (much like the Linear Guild) pretty much to deconstruct the concept of the competent heroic team and humiliate them (which I have limited patience for). I anticipate that what happens next is that he will turn around and deal with a 'legitimate' threat so they can slink off and steal whatever measure of 'success' remains possible. Probably at that point, the Order will fight what remains of the Linear Guild, saved once again by infighting on the part of the villain cast (specifically, I expect that with Tarquin gone, Malak won't back the Guild up -- and in fact will likely take out whoever the biggest threat to the Order is himself ... if he isn't busy countering Redcloak while Tarquin squares off with Xykon).

That's not compelling reading, to me. "And the heroes finally (sort of) succeed because the villains can counter every conceivable threat ... except for other villains."

[Math_Mage]

Math_Mage: Sorry -- the belated backpedaling would be from the author addressing the previous issues after they'd become grating, and trying to adjust the tone to compensate for the earlier poor delivery/pacing, not the forum or community. If that came across as an accusation to the community, then I apologize.

Oh, you mean that if the author changes his tune in future strips, it won't affect your distaste for the fact that this section of strips dragged on. I see.


But since you asked: The 'heroes' simply haven't been portrayed in a light that makes them feel 'heroic' to me lately; there's simply an excess of villainous competence, to the point where one wonders how the heroes can have meaningful victories in the face of what's gone before. And it's been heavily foreshadowed that the heroes can't succeed, and only the fact that incredibly competent villains are going to be busy fighting one-another will give them any leeway to move towards anything constituting a 'win'. Sure, the plot dictates that they'll succeed, so they will.

But will it feel like something earned, or will it just be something that underscores the irrelevance of the team's contributions in the face of major antagonists being too busy infighting? It'd be one thing if Tarquin and Xykon ran into one-another before the Order got to the temple (yes, as written, the Order had to get there first), and then the Order took the opportunity to sneak/charge past them. But as it stands, what's their meaningful contribution going to be?

Instead of the heroes being capable, we get major exposition on the Order getting beat up by someone who exists (much like the Linear Guild) pretty much to deconstruct the concept of the competent heroic team and humiliate them (which I have limited patience for). I anticipate that what happens next is that he will turn around and deal with a 'legitimate' threat so they can slink off and steal whatever measure of 'success' remains possible. Probably at that point, the Order will fight what remains of the Linear Guild, saved once again by infighting on the part of the villain cast (specifically, I expect that with Tarquin gone, Malak won't back the Guild up -- and in fact will likely take out whoever the biggest threat to the Order is himself ... if he isn't busy countering Redcloak while Tarquin squares off with Xykon).

That's not compelling reading, to me. "And the heroes finally (sort of) succeed because the villains can counter every conceivable threat ... except for other villains."

All right. My two previous points regarding this argument (that the villains are now too strong for the Order to believably succeed against them and be 'heroic') were that this has been the case throughout the comic, and that this has been the case in other quite successful stories, especially if you consider particular checkpoints of a work in progress (The Empire Strikes Back was mentioned). Is there some particular aspect about OotS that makes it less appropriate to have the heroes repeatedly fail partway through the story? Or is there some other factor that makes their failures especially galling?

One additional point to consider is that "Evil turns upon itself" is by no means a poor literary theme to pursue, in the likely event that the Giant moves in that direction. We even have it explicitly drawn out by the IFCC during the Darth V arc: Evil isn't one big happy family, destructive unnecessary conflict has held the evil races back for all these years, and so on. Is it then dramatically inappropriate to have the foreseeable LG fracture and the foreseeable arrival of Team Evil breaking up the current fight?

[rgrekejin]

But since you asked: The 'heroes' simply haven't been portrayed in a light that makes them feel 'heroic' to me lately; there's simply an excess of villainous competence, to the point where one wonders how the heroes can have meaningful victories in the face of what's gone before.

Keep reading. You'll find out.


And it's been heavily foreshadowed that the heroes can't succeed, and only the fact that incredibly competent villains are going to be busy fighting one-another will give them any leeway to move towards anything constituting a 'win'. Sure, the plot dictates that they'll succeed, so they will.

But will it feel like something earned, or will it just be something that underscores the irrelevance of the team's contributions in the face of major antagonists being too busy infighting? It'd be one thing if Tarquin and Xykon ran into one-another before the Order got to the temple (yes, as written, the Order had to get there first), and then the Order took the opportunity to sneak/charge past them. But as it stands, what's their meaningful contribution going to be?

Instead of the heroes being capable, we get major exposition on the Order getting beat up by someone who exists (much like the Linear Guild) pretty much to deconstruct the concept of the competent heroic team and humiliate them (which I have limited patience for).

You keep referencing the Order's incompetence, but I haven't really seen much evidence for this in the comic. The Order is not incompetent. What the are is not omnicompetent. I hold that the Order has shown numerous and varied manifestations of their competence to this point, and if you desire I can enumerate them. I do concede that they make their share of errors, but failing to be omnicompetent is not the same thing as being incompetent. When the Order makes an incorrect tactical decision based on incomplete intelligence, that is not incompetence. They usually make the best possible decision based on what they knew at the time. If their information was incomplete at the time, well, that happens.

The entire rest of the complaint seems stem from how you anticipate future events unfolding, so I really can't say anything about it. I could speculate (and I have) that the current arc will end in a manner completely different from the one you are suggesting. But I'm going to reserve judgement until I see whether or not events actually unfold as I anticipated.

[Masamichi]

All right. My two previous points regarding this argument (that the villains are now too strong for the Order to believably succeed against them and be 'heroic') were that this has been the case throughout the comic, and that this has been the case in other quite successful stories, especially if you consider particular checkpoints of a work in progress (The Empire Strikes Back was mentioned). Is there some particular aspect about OotS that makes it less appropriate to have the heroes repeatedly fail partway through the story? Or is there some other factor that makes their failures especially galling?

The particularly egregious way that the dialog tends to hammers the point home (Thog was by far the most infuriating example ("I'm dumb, but you lose anyway! And I'm still smart enough to tell you why your intelligence does nothing for you!"). Probably this is meant to be charmingly skirting the fourth wall, but to me it crosses the line between 'the heroes are challenged and won't always succeed' and pretty much meanders straight into schadenfreude.

I'm not saying that the heroes have to always win every encounter; yes, they should be challenged. If there's room in the story, they can lose fights. But not to the point where it overshadows the possibility of success beyond a hasty, "Oh, well, here's this convenient thing that was handed to us!" (diablolous ex machina, anti-barbarian architecture, &cetera).

I also don't feel that this is particularly analogous to 'The Empire Strikes Back', because at this point the PCs are ostensibly on the offense, whereas in that movie they were on the defense. It's not established as 'the Order must flee and survive, and do their best to rally against their foe for an eventual encounter.' While that was the context for the scenes following Xykon taking over Azure City, at this point they're supposed to be counter-attacking (pre-emptively getting to the Gate). And it instead feels like, 'the Order has seized initiative and are doing their best ... so lets watch them fail with a succession of increasingly wacky pratfalls until it's time for them to be catapulted across the finish line'.


One additional point to consider is that "Evil turns upon itself" is by no means a poor literary theme to pursue, in the likely event that the Giant moves in that direction. We even have it explicitly drawn out by the IFCC during the Darth V arc: Evil isn't one big happy family, destructive unnecessary conflict has held the evil races back for all these years, and so on. Is it then dramatically inappropriate to have the foreseeable LG fracture and the foreseeable arrival of Team Evil breaking up the current fight?

I don't believe so, but then that wasn't my point of contention. I'm saying this story is poorly delivered; I'm not saying those themes can't be (and as you point out have been) delivered better. I suppose there could be some common ground insofar as Luke taking a beating before Vader's Heel-Face-Turn, but the real fight was Luke vs. the temptation of the dark side, so that isn't particularly analogous either; Luke was able to hold his own and achieve the meaningful victory of not giving in to temptation.

We don't have much in the way of meaningful victory, here, and believe me, I looked. Instead it feels that the villanous competence so far overshadows the heroes capabilites that they may as well be utterly incompetent (observe that Elan's had the greatest measure of success among the Order for quite some time, and generally gotten out of fights with the least amount of damage taken; that feels like a pretty direct message that competence does nothing for the heroes in context).

[sims796]

What can really be said? There are things he doesn't like. At this point, it seems like people are just trying to change his opinion. He isn't relenting, I'm not changing how I feel, and we have a genuine reason that we are giving for not liking these aspects that apparently won't convince you of what we don't like about the comic. All we can do now is let it die.

[ti'esar]

What can really be said? There are things he doesn't like. At this point, it seems like people are just trying to change his opinion. He isn't relenting, I'm not changing how I feel, and we have a genuine reason that we are giving for not liking these aspects that apparently won't convince you of what we don't like about the comic. All we can do now is let it die.

I certainly agree with this more then anything else you've said. The argument is not going anywhere; let's just drop it.

[Chessgeek]

Funny comic. Can't wait for the next one.

I just wanted to break up the flow of the argument. Carry on.

[sims796]

I certainly agree with this more then anything else you've said. The argument is not going anywhere; let's just drop it.

Thanks...I think.

But this is starting to get more heated than (then?) it should, over opinions. I know we all hate the "opinion clause", but we are arguing over personal perspective in how we view the comic. Soon, the words "fanboy" and "hater" will pop up, and worse, we'll start having multiple links to tvtropes in order to prove a point. And I'm pretty sure we don't want that.

I have an assignment to write, can't get caught up in that site now.

[rewinn]

Ok, so you've been forced into a gladiatorial arena fight. What is the master plan supposed to be if you have been stripped of all your possessions, contact with members of your party is extremely limited or nil, and armed guards are everywhere to enforce the fact that you are supposed to hit the other guy till he dies? Make a cannon out of rock rubble and dirt?
Alas, the Gorn Cannon has been mythbusted (http://trekmovie.com/2009/12/29/mythbusters-take-on-star-trek-gorn-canon-recap-w-pics-video/) ... but of course they weren't using Kirk's Alien Super-strong Bamboo so it remains a viable option under the right circumstances.


...Or watch the frequency with which NFL Helmets are taken off (a time or two per game).

Yes, it's not a constant occurrence, but it does happen, and it ain't *that* hard.

That is all true, but let us also note the sheer awesomeness of the Rip Helmet Off feat. Roy deliberately exposed himself to direct counterattack by Tarquin ... a very risky maneuver. Almost anything else Roy could have done with his hands would have inflicted more direct damage, but at that point, Roy felt it was worth surrendering another round of direct damage in favor of acquiring the intel he needed to win the fight. That's Leadership indeed ... that's Fighting with More Than Weapons.

Tough break for Roy that his opponent is better at that sort of thing than he is.

[Kish]

The particularly egregious way that the dialog tends to hammers the point home (Thog was by far the most infuriating example ("I'm dumb, but you lose anyway! And I'm still smart enough to tell you why your intelligence does nothing for you!").

...But Thog lost.

Probably this is meant to be charmingly skirting the fourth wall,

Probably the things Thog said were things Thog said, and you're seeing Voice Of Author somewhere where it wasn't.

Especially since, you know, Thog lost.

[Math_Mage]

...But Thog lost.

He's probably talking about "Thog already know how to use Thog's best ability score in fight."

Of course, that whole scene was a setup for Roy showing how one uses one's Intelligence score in combat, but as Masamishi dislikes that climax, one can't expect him to like the lead-in.

[Kish]

He's probably talking about "Thog already know how to use Thog's best ability score in fight."
I got that. The thing is, it makes absolutely no sense to interpret something that the loser said during a fight which he lost as rubbing the winner's nose in something or speaking to the audience. It's...like taking Dorukan's fight with Xykon as proof that wizards beat sorcerers.

[ti'esar]

{{Scrubbed}}