The Kingdom of Baron In Middle Age Europe

[ArlEammon]

The year is 800 AD. The Kingdom of Baron mysteriously replaces England. The Kingdom of Baron has all of it's magic and Fantasy Elements, including airships. However, Baron only has 5,000 inhabitants. (I"m being generous, back-ground cannon says Baron has 4,500). So Baron has monsters, (Probably not counted in the population) Dark Knights, Mages, Dragoons and it's Royal Gaurd. (So let's say, with monsters included, Baron has 10,000 inhabitants)

However, please note the enormous numbers disparity between it and it's neighbors. Baron is small even compared to Medieval powers. With such a change in Europe, can Baron become a Great Power, or will it be wiped out somehow?

[tyckspoon]

I would expect they become the absolute last word in mercenaries. They don't have the numbers to do large-scale warfare and occupation of other countries, but Baron's local military power would be completely uncontested. You can't invade them, so the next best thing to do is to hire them.. whoever has Baron backing them in their war-du-jour wins. There's just no way any of the rest of the world at that time period can handle fighting a single airship, let alone the full force Baron could bring to bear if they really wanted to destroy some person or place completely. So they'll stay tiny, but they'll become the de facto ruling power of Europe and anywhere else they can readily project their forces, because before you do *anything* you have to be sure that you can hire Baron to back it or at least pay them enough to ensure they maintain neutrality. Otherwise, you get the Damcyan treatment and there's nothing you can do about it.

[ArlEammon]

I would expect they become the absolute last word in mercenaries. They don't have the numbers to do large-scale warfare and occupation of other countries, but Baron's local military power would be completely uncontested. You can't invade them, so the next best thing to do is to hire them.. whoever has Baron backing them in their war-du-jour wins. There's just no way any of the rest of the world at that time period can handle fighting a single airship, let alone the full force Baron could bring to bear if they really wanted to destroy some person or place completely. So they'll stay tiny, but they'll become the de facto ruling power of Europe and anywhere else they can readily project their forces, because before you do *anything* you have to be sure that you can hire Baron to back it or at least pay them enough to ensure they maintain neutrality. Otherwise, you get the Damcyan treatment and there's nothing you can do about it.

Now that I understand, but with the former English territories now empty, Baron has plenty of room to expand. I'm curious if in 100-300+ years if Baron could one day become something like a huge invader.

[nyarlathotep]

Now that I understand, but with the former English territories now empty, Baron has plenty of room to expand. I'm curious if in 100-300+ years if Baron could one day become something like a huge invader.

I'd be similarly curious as to how the other countries would attempt to steal and/or replicate their magic and technology.

[Axolotl]

Now that I understand, but with the former English territories now empty, Baron has plenty of room to expand. I'm curious if in 100-300+ years if Baron could one day become something like a huge invader.Well they don't actually have much room to expand, I mean if they only have 5000 people then they can't do much to stop anyone else taking that land, and there's no shortage of people who would be trying to take it. Unless they just go off to another country and just impose themselves as the new leaders (which assuming the disparity in military strength is as great as it seems would be fairly easy) then it'll be an awfully long long time before they have the numbers to do any real conquering. Of course it'll be even longer before anyone in Europe has anything that could even try to take on an airship, so assuming they can keep their technology secret then they'd probably be able to do it.

Buit why is it called Baron? I mean the name just makes it hard to read.

[Killer Angel]

Does magic protects them from diseases? ‘cause otherwise, they risk to be wiped out at the first epidemic...

[Thinker]

I think that over time Baron would be absorbed into a larger culture as their populace intermarried with others. Their technology would be reverse engineered or at least copied within a generation.

[DiscipleofBob]

GG Europe?

They'll be prospering pretty quickly what with the world's only air force, the world's only magical force, the world's foremost engineers, and the world's only group of individuals capable of literal dragon-slaying on a regular basis. Not to mention the weaponized use of Bombs to destroy entire towns with one attack.

Even if they start out with only 5000, they'll grow quickly. Expect a lot of conquering nations then turning them into fiefs for the Baron nobles.

Oh, and don't forget that regular white magic plus a good night's rest can cure any ailment, including poison, and curses. The plague stops at Baron's front doors.

Of course, depending on who's in charge, Baron might be benevolent and might not have any ambition to conquer other territories, at which point they win through Cultural, Economic, and Technological Victory all at once. Since their king is either Cecil or Odin, they'll probably be the good guys, and it's not like the other nations have valuable crystals to be sought after.

[ArlEammon]

Does magic protects them from diseases? ‘cause otherwise, they risk to be wiped out at the first epidemic...

White mages and powerful medicine can cure the plague.


Well they don't actually have much room to expand, I mean if they only have 5000 people then they can't do much to stop anyone else taking that land, and there's no shortage of people who would be trying to take it. Unless they just go off to another country and just impose themselves as the new leaders (which assuming the disparity in military strength is as great as it seems would be fairly easy) then it'll be an awfully long long time before they have the numbers to do any real conquering. Of course it'll be even longer before anyone in Europe has anything that could even try to take on an airship, so assuming they can keep their technology secret then they'd probably be able to do it.

Buit why is it called Baron? I mean the name just makes it hard to read.

In Final Fantasy IV, the main Kingdom was just called Baron. ::shrugs::

[Killer Angel]

White mages and powerful medicine can cure the plague.


Makes sense for a magic kingdom.
Then, i see a situation like Venice... they'll have a little "home", but will control a vast territory, thanks to a great superiority and an increasing number of allies, some of them with real alligiances (economical but also with marriages, and so on), some of them after submission. They're going to dominate a large portion of Europe and mediterranean sea for some century.

[Kato]

Okay, any problems aside, they could destroy anything they want to destroy. And noone should pose any harm to them. They got the only air force, magic, superhuman soldiers...

But, even with a population of 5.000, it would quite take a while for them if they plan to rule the world, except if they turn into some master race reigning over normal humans. If we make a generous, really generous estimate they can multiply by ten within a generation, when mixing with normal people. Which may or may not hinder their magic/superior strength. So unless they decide to keep their bloodline pure they'll soon have to mix with 'us', or stay a very small people.

Which means they would either willingly or unwillingly share their powers with others and so decrease their superiority or... at least fall back on their huuuge advantage.

So... unless they decide to each take a country and rule it with an iron fist, as a race by itself I don't see much hope for them waging war, unless they try to destroy everything and give rise to a new race.

[ArlEammon]

Okay, any problems aside, they could destroy anything they want to destroy. And noone should pose any harm to them. They got the only air force, magic, superhuman soldiers...

But, even with a population of 5.000, it would quite take a while for them if they plan to rule the world, except if they turn into some master race reigning over normal humans. If we make a generous, really generous estimate they can multiply by ten within a generation, when mixing with normal people. Which may or may not hinder their magic/superior strength. So unless they decide to keep their bloodline pure they'll soon have to mix with 'us', or stay a very small people.

Which means they would either willingly or unwillingly share their powers with others and so decrease their superiority or... at least fall back on their huuuge advantage.

So... unless they decide to each take a country and rule it with an iron fist, as a race by itself I don't see much hope for them waging war, unless they try to destroy everything and give rise to a new race.

I don't think that magic is racial in Final Fantasy IV except for Summoners. But, since The Kingdom of Baron is in the year 800, could they maybe advance to a world super power status by say, oh 1500?

[Morph Bark]

Actually, in the year 800 Baron could not replace England because there was no England yet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_kingdoms_c_800.svg). :smalltongue:

More seriously though:

Considering how easily they dominated the world in their own reality and how quickly populations can grow (with their magic and all of England to expand into they can probably double in population size every century).

It all depends on how fast the people living in Scotland and Wales would react, and back in 800 they weren't nice people.

[ArlEammon]

Actually, in the year 800 Baron could not replace England because there was no England yet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_kingdoms_c_800.svg). :smalltongue:

More seriously though:

Considering how easily they dominated the world in their own reality and how quickly populations can grow (with their magic and all of England to expand into they can probably double in population size every century).

It all depends on how fast the people living in Scotland and Wales would react, and back in 800 they weren't nice people.

If all Baron has to worry about is Wales and Scotland, Baron doesn't have much to worry about, since they can shoot fire balls, lightning bolts, dark energy waves, and bombs from their airships.

[Axolotl]

If all Baron has to worry about is Wales and Scotland, Baron doesn't have much to worry about, since they can shoot fire balls, lightning bolts, dark energy waves, and bombs from their airships.None of those can really compare to unmitigated horror of the Welsh language.

But more seriously, there's only so much land 5000 people can hold regardless of their power, they're going to lose most of the north to the Scottish.

[Mixt]

And in certain individuals cases, take direct hits from nuke level attacks and still be standing afterwards.

Boom nuclear explosion.
Nope, Final Fantasy guy is still coming, badly injured yes, but no worse than a Flare spell would have done, seeing as how Flare and a nuke are basically the same thing.

Your silly little swords and axes are not going to be doing much of anything against those guys.
For that matter, your silly little guns are not going to be doing much either unless you focus tens of thousands of them on one guy and spend from midday to early morning the next day shooting at him (Which was what brough Zack from Final Fantasy 7 down, and that's not counting the air support and missiles they brough along to help)

Basically, get the main characters involved, and all hope is lost for the opposition if it weren't already.

Actually, one summoning of say, Leviathan, or worse, Bahamut would be enough to wipe out an army by itself, seeing as how the former makes giant tsunamis and the latter breathes nuclear explosions.

Game Over for the real life countries in other words.

Just send Cecil or Kain or maybe Rydia into the fray, then sit back and watch the bloodbath.

EDIT: Did you say the year 800?
Okay then, i would like to see what the vikings have to say about Rydia summoning Odin on their asses.

[DiscipleofBob]

EDIT: Did you say the year 800?
Okay then, i would like to see what the vikings have to say about Rydia summoning Odin on their asses.

More importantly, Odin is/was the king of Baron. Hell, when he's not on the throne he's living in the basement.

Vikings just got feudalized.

[Story Time]

The year is 800 AD. The Kingdom of Baron mysteriously replaces[...]

Baron becomes the dominant power in all Europe inside two hundred years! :smalleek:

At the beginning of Final Fantasy IV, Baron had a minimum of five air ships, twenty white mages, twenty black mages, one dark knight, ten dragoons, and enough Red Wings and mechanics to crew and maintain every ship in their fleet. Baron had collected Mysidia's mystic crystal of water which would give its own fantastic benefits. Clean, non-poisonable, water?

It's important to note here that Baron would have arrived into their island territories with significant cannon power before any other culture had it. It would have been present not only at their castle proper, but in their air-ships also.

Commodore Cecil Harvey would have commanded the fleet in the air to bomb, or bombard any target the King [You Know] ( No Spoilers! ) commanded. Dragoons would have dive-bombed enemy targets from the air and then returned to the safety of a ship. There, white mages would stand ready to relieve their wounds before the formation was commanded to set on what-ever ground was the target objective. Red Wings, white and black mages, dragoons, any other knights, and perhaps also Cecil the dark knight would have then poured out of the ships to secure what-ever territory they were ordered to claim. At this stage the black mages would have been responsible for the majority of the damage while the armored warriors simply held a firm perimeter and the white mages enforced that line.

...a few pockets of what became the Scots and the Irish might have survived this process. But with repeated air-ship bombings I can't really imagine much significant culture surviving in what might have become England. Most of the indigenous inhabitants would have been wiped out through war and conquest, even if they all united together against Baron.

Welsh archers? Against heavily armed and armored dragon-knights? The islands surrounding Wales would have become the United Kingdom of Baron and it would be divided from Europe by the Baronian Channel. The other nations of Europe would have been divided as they were conquered over the period of the second, and possibly third, century.

The vykings...might have raided a Baronian port city. Once. In all honesty they might have tried a number of times, but with cannon defenses those ships would not be viable strike craft. With such secure ports, Baron would have made a very stable merchant haven for the trading of goods. Vykings would then have had to find more soft targets, if they chose to.

With such a strong and defensible economy the nation of Baron would have flourished...along with their engineered aqueduct system supplying clean, potable, water from the mystic crystal at the center of their kingdom / empire.

By fifteen hundred Africa and Asia would be soberly considering some kind of diplomatic arrangement with the United Nations of Baron.


The monsters...would have been an equal threat to every-one early on, those that were not sapient. But with Baron Castle protecting the country, those monsters would have been more of a threat to the country-side than Baron itself. Also, Baron would have mowed down the Ottoman Empire using high altitude bombing. Constantinople would have been captured, and held, by Baronian forces whether the Ottomans ever laid siege to it or not.


What an interesting question, though! :smallbiggrin:


1

I totally forgot the Serpent Road! Baron still would be able to connect to it's own world! :smalleek:

Oh, wow. That...that changes things...

[Misery Esquire]

No.

5000 people is not enough, no matter what power they each have. (Short of a nuclear missle each.)

With 5000 people you cannot hold land, if you can't hold land, you'll run out of food. And die.

They could very easily become the aristocracy and ultimate defender of any European nation, by killing thier current capital. But the entire continent? And by remaining thier own little nation without annexing via Royalty? Hell no.

It doesn't matter if one dragon-knight could solo a 1,000 man army, there's hundreds more armies just like it, and those 1,000 don't even have to fight the Knight, they can just leave a few hundred to distract him while the rest of them burn down whatever he's trying to protect. The Scottish, Welsh and Irish could take them by numbers alone, unless Baron creates diplomatic ties, and quickly.

And the best way to create those ties would be handing out the advantage they have in magic (Which fails to spread to everyone else by itself if it's not genetic/technological, how?) and technology. Even if they make shoddy knockoffs of thier technology to sell, that's still a step into power for everyone else to start on. And once everyone starts using it, though Baron may remain with the best renditions, it'll be just like the introduction of guns. Strong, world changing, but not a guaranteed run at Owner Of Planet.

The European powers spared armies (multiple per nation) of 10-20,000 troops for thier wars, because they had a population of a million, and could still maintain all of thier farming and industry while those people were off dying.

With 5,000 people, you can't maintain the industry of a small town. Even today, with our factories full of labour saving machines that need less workers per product in a given timeframe, you'd need a hundred people to make hundreds of parts per day. And that's not even for paticularly complex parts, and before considering that you have to find, mine, transport, refine, and otherwise prepare the material for the industry.

In addition, you need to feed these people before the invention of mass-tilling tractors, (high-effect) fertiliziers, and long-distance water pumping. (Aquaducts, while effective, do not allow irrigation to be done anywhere as it is today) The absolute minimum amount of farmland a human requires to have a survivable diet is .07 Hectacres, or about 7 acres, and that's assuming perfect fertilization, perfect argicultural understanding, no natural disasters such as drought, flooding, disease, animals, fires, and no need to feed farm animals. None of this is expected of even a modern farm, let alone one from 800 AD. In Medieval times, farming took a large percentage of the population to keep the entire population alive. (60-85% lived and worked in the agricultural countryside.)

So, you're left with maybe 1000 Full Time warriors and fighters on behalf of Baron, versus the casual 10,000 Scots, 10,000 Welsh, and 4-6,000 Irish who want to take your things, before the other powers even realise that you're horribly undermanned for the amount of land that England entails.

[ArlEammon]

So, you're left with maybe 1000 Full Time warriors and fighters on behalf of Baron, versus the casual 10,000 Scots, 10,000 Welsh, and 4-6,000 Irish who want to take your things, before the other powers even realise that you're horribly undermanned for the amount of land that England entails.

Problem. . . what happens if Baron goes the Viking route and just raid for what they need?

[Misery Esquire]

Problem. . . what happens if Baron goes the Viking route and just raid for what they need?

The vikings maintained farmland, industry and a heck of a lot of fishing.

Raiding is not a sustainable national food/industry source.

:: It would however, work if Baron does not remain a traditional land nation and instead becomes a wandering nationality, as mercenary work and loot would sustain a fighting company of 5,000.

[ArlEammon]

The vikings maintained farmland, industry and a heck of a lot of fishing.

Raiding is not a sustainable national food/industry source.

Hmmm good point. I'm getting vastly different answers here.

[Misery Esquire]

Hmmm good point. I'm getting vastly different answers here.

To be fair, it could be more impressive on the Baronian (?) side, if you placed them somewhere like Switzerland, and let them have an appropriate population (Fantasy/SciFi Writers have no sense of scale, I believe is the trope/saying that goes here.), as noone bothers to invade the Swiss, due to thier mountainous and rough terrain (It has happened, but not all that often) Plus, they'd be a great replacement for the Swiss as the quintissential mercenary troop, and if they have a strong enough patriotism streak, the companies could make the money to pay thier nation into mercentialism, banking, and food. Just like the real Swiss, but with superpowers. :smalltongue:

[ArlEammon]

To be fair, it could be more impressive on the Baronian (?) side, if you placed them somewhere like Switzerland, and let them have an appropriate population (Fantasy/SciFi Writers have no sense of scale, I believe is the trope/saying that goes here.), as noone bothers to invade the Swiss, due to thier mountainous and rough terrain (It has happened, but not all that often) Plus, they'd be a great replacement for the Swiss as the quintissential mercenary troop, and if they have a strong enough patriotism streak, the companies could make the money to pay thier nation into mercentialism, banking, and food. Just like the real Swiss, but with superpowers. :smalltongue:

Could Baron keep a sustainable nation with only 20,000 inhabitants?

[Story Time]

...farm-land defended by cannon lines against armies armed with...normal barbarian weaponry? ...assuming axes, throwing axes, bows and arrows, slings, swords, shields, stick-slings, and maybe light catapults or trebuchet-like siege...

...against a castle fortified upon arrival. A stone castle armed with accurized cannons which could penetrate a solid oak tree or demast a sailing ship at ranges of less than three hundred yards. This doesn't mention the air-ships being armed with the same and could also be parked around the castle in such a way that they could broad-side attack most directions of approach.

It's also of note that the canon ( not cannon ) weapon shop in Baron sold Thunder rods and Cure staves.

...one black mage using Poison / Virus en masse on approaching enemies. Zombie. The ability to raise an army from fallen corpses, in pieces or not. White mages? They can use Cure and Life. Seriously, Life and Life II. The ability to restore fallen warriors other-wise mortally wounded or deceased. ...they can just get right back up and join the fighting line.

Baron would survive. It might be...a couple of massacres...which would be very sad. But they would survive. Their castle would hold their land. Their borders would eventually reach the sea.

It's really all a matter of demographics and math. Baron as a society has the medical and technological know-how to preserve the lives of their citizens more-so than the other indigenous cultures. With long life-lines and no restriction on the number of children per family? They'd do very little but grow, even if the Mongol Horde arrived.

[Misery Esquire]

...farm-land defended by cannon lines against armies armed with...normal barbarian weaponry? ...assuming axes, throwing axes, bows and arrows, slings, swords, shields, stick-slings, and maybe light catapults or trebuchet-like siege...

You're joking, right? This is after Rome. Iron weaponry and siege equipment of all variety were common. Steel was rare, as the process hadn't been mastered or fully understood as of 800 AD. They're 300-ish years off from having thier own cannons, to be fair.

But, you have a nation of 5000, 3500 at least of which are going to be farming, plus the 400+ craftsmen, protected by... cannon lines? Unless you're protecting a few square acres, they'll either get stolen, run around, or too sparse to be anything but a terror weapon to get whispered about, almost as mythical as the bombs of the East.



...against a castle fortified upon arrival. A stone castle armed with cannons, if not to mention that the air ships are armed with them, or can be parked in such a way that they could broad-side attack most directions of approach.


Broadsides, especially of cannon, are incredibly ineffective against anything that isn't a formation so tightly packed that it'd be impossible to fight in. If you get a perfect shot (which, I might note, is nigh-impossible at a skyline angle), you erase one file of men. 5-6.

But, this is assuming they even bother attacking the castle rather than using the tried and true metheod of beating an unbreakable defence. Sit there and starve you out. No need to charge the castle, no need to even get into cannon range.




...one black mage using Poison en masse on approaching enemies.


Who can only be in one place, at one time. If you break an army of 10,000 into 100 100 man groups, they can go burn down the countryside. The reason most wars actually had armies fighting is because both sides wanted to keep the land, and needed to do more than starve one castle to death to do so.



Baron would survive. It might be...a couple of massacres...which would be very sad. But they would survive. Their castle would hold their land. Their borders would eventually reach the sea.

Unless this castle is at a scale unheard of in history, it won't have the food production to survive (a) year(s) of siege. You also need to get a population from somewhere, because even magically doubling the population every year you'd need... 5 years to get to the population of your nearest neighbors. And then those... 75,000 infants and toddlers need (10-15) years to grow into the workforce of thier nation. And you need to feed them in the meantime.



It's really all a matter of demographics and math. Baron as a society has the medical and technological know-how to preserve the lives of their citizens more-so than the other indigenous cultures. With long life-lines and no restriction on the number of children per family? They'd do very little but grow, even if the Mongol Horde arrived.

And? If we transported 5,000 people, even highly trained farmer/soldier/doctor all-round survivor geniuses back to 800 AD with an arsenal of modern science, weapons, food, and power, without trading and making friends with thier neighbors, they'd die.

Lots of kids would exacerbate the issue, as then they need to feed all these new mouths, and take more land... when they don't have the populace to hold the land they have, aside from the impregnable castle.

It is a matter of demographics. A lack of.

[The Glyphstone]

This reminds me strongly of the Ring of Fire series of alt-history novels by John Ringo. There, it's a modern-day West Virginia mining town transported to 17th-century Germany, but the end result would probably be something similar. Just like in this scenario, they have absurdly overpowered technology that lets them crush anyone they meet, but too few numbers to really be offensive-minded. Plus, their monopoly on 'the good stuff' evaporates pretty fast...they still have exclusive access to automobiles that they control the only manufacturing process for, but other nations are experimenting with things like rifles within a year of their arrival.

[kpenguin]

This reminds me strongly of the Ring of Fire series of alt-history novels by John Ringo Eric Flint. There, it's a modern-day West Virginia mining town transported to 17th-century Germany, but the end result would probably be something similar. Just like in this scenario, they have absurdly overpowered technology that lets them crush anyone they meet, but too few numbers to really be offensive-minded. Plus, their monopoly on 'the good stuff' evaporates pretty fast...they still have exclusive access to automobiles that they control the only manufacturing process for, but other nations are experimenting with things like rifles within a year of their arrival.

Got the author wrong, but yeah. I was reminded of the novels here too. What really saw Grantville through was not their technology, but their ability to make alliances and conduct diplomacy. Without proper political manuevering...

[DiscipleofBob]

(snip)

Oh there is just so much wrong with this...

Before I get too much into this, I just want to state for the record that I doubt under the rule of Cecil or the old (real) king of Baron that Baron would have any conquest in mind. They'd probably get along just fine with people unless attacked first.

First of all, you are assuming that 1) Baron needs to hold a very large area of land when it was just the one kingdom and town in-game, and 2) that somehow the entire rest of the world unites AND gets on the offensive.

For the first point, I'll grant you that farmland and food supplies aren't exactly talked about at length. Either we assume that Baron has farmland that just doesn't show up on the world map, they've developed some kind of system that lets them have a safe food and water supply within the walls of their own city, or they just magic up some food and water. Whichever one it is, it's really all speculation. All we do see is that the castle and the town are both well-defended and walled.

But I have to laugh at the idea that a historic medieval army has ANYTHING that could even touch Baron. We're talking about a kingdom where a party of 5 or less can take down hordes of monsters, keep the healing going throughout the day, and be back on their feet after a good night's sleep. You get 100 5-man teams consisting of one Black Mage, one White Mage, a couple Fighters of varying kinds and a Dragoon doing hit-and-run tactics the other armies are going down hard. That's not even including summoning eidolons to lay waste to enemies.

And I have to ask, if Baron decided just to go all Damcyan with a squadron of airships and just lay waste to the enemy's capital city, airships which btw can apparently do multiple laps around the world without needing refueling.

There isn't a force that even could hold Baron castle at a siege, not when they have Black Mages raining hellfire, thunderstorms, and blizzards down on the opposing army from a distance, Summoners who can call gods down to lay waste to them, and an navy of airships contained within the castle itself. Oh, but they need a food supply? Fine, we'll just turn the opposing army into Pigs with one spell. Free livestock for everyone! (Okay, that last part's probably a little farther than Baron might be willing to go, but still)

Once again, I sincerely doubt that Baron would actually declare war on anyone unless provoked. Maybe some of the other nations see Baron and declare it to be a nation of heathens and witchcraft. Then the response would be, "Yeah, so?" punctuated with laying waste to the capital of their loudest opponent with an airship strike before they even had time to mobilize. Then the other nations learn to play nice and everyone gets along fine, especially when those White Mages are around to help out with all those plagues.

[Story Time]

Before I realized that the above post had been made, I edited the black mage section of my most recent post.


Making friends... Let me think about that. Which cultures would be most willing to make peace with Baron after learning that their neighbor's capital city ( village? ) was annihilated by carpet bombing?

Baronian armies would have been armed with fire bombs, ice bombs, and lightning bombs. Black mages have more uses than the battle field... Eventually, one of them might learn Flare, or perhaps Meteo(rite). White mages would learn Wall for arrow deflection, as well as Berserk, and Mini.

...and extremely few of these...combatants would lose their lives because of the reasons I stated above. With readily available Cure staves in mass, whether used by white mages or not, the soldiers of Baron could with-stand quite a bit. Too many precious lives would probably be lost if battle did approach them, to be sure. Their strategy would be foolish to approach the enemy on an open field, of course. It would be much better to expand fortifications like Constantinople... Or use chocobo cavalry... ( Flying chocobo cavalry? )

Black mages have access to three levels of Fire, Ice, and Lightning. But they also have battle winners like Sleep, Stop, Toad, Drain, Death, Virus, Flare, Stone, Pig, and Meteor. White mages have access to four levels of Cure, Heal ( for all ailments ), two versions of Life, Slow, Confuse, Hold, Blink, Armor, Fast, Wall, Exit ( teleport ), Sight ( for strategy purposes ), Float, and the venerable White...

...other armies simply can not compete with this if Baron has any kind of solid defense or mobile offense. They happen to have both. Castle Baron would not have to endure any long siege. Their Red Wings could strike by air any besieging army without suffering a single casualty.


There is only one culture, to my knowledge, that poses any significant threat to Baron in this time period. The Ottoman Empire. They were not around in England in the year eight hundred. Only cannon power would be able to breach those castle walls. If they did, those who survived could board the air-ships and search for better territory.


1

Just to be clear, I thought I'd add this part. :smallbiggrin:

I didn't say two years. I said two centuries. And...perhaps that should have been four or five. I'll admit that. :smallredface: But of course I don't think it's reasonable that Baron would start fielding any large ground-based military might inside twenty years. With chocobo scouts ( flying or not ) the towns people could be gathered into the castle quickly if any enemy approached. That enemy would be bombarded until they left, or carpet bombed until annihilated. Even without a moat! :smalleek: The citizens would roughly experience no losses.

With the Crystal of Water irrigation would be possible almost any-where in England. Aqueducts would take time to build. That expansion might cause stress and battle, followed by air-strikes. It is this air superiority which essentially guarantees Baron's victory and survival as a nation. It isn't perfect, of course. Their air ships might have to be repaired from fire arrow attacks. But they require no fuel. That's important. They can stay in the air indefinitely.

...sure gorilla tactics by other cultures would prove militarily irritating, but not a threat capable of wiping out Baron's entire population.

[Selrahc]

There is only one culture, to my knowledge, that poses any significant threat to Baron in this time period. The Ottoman Empire. They were not around in England in the year eight hundred.

That is... something of an understatement.

The three big European powers in this period are:
the Carolingian Empire, the large empire carved out of Europe by Charlemagne mainly encompassing France and Germany.

The Islamic world, the vibrant dynastic and religious force that took over most of Spain, North Africa and the Middle East(although heavily divisions arose by 800, there was still enough cohesion to think of it as an entity under the Abbasid Caliphate).

Finally the Byzantine Empire, or the Eastern Roman empire, which was still a mighty and formidable force back in 800, albeit slightly reeling from the loss of lands to the Arab conquests. It controlled Asia Minor and parts of the Balkans, Italy and Greece.

The Ottoman empire did not exist in 800. The tribes of Turks that would eventually form the majority ethnic group weren't yet even in Asia Minor. It would be *half a millenium* before the Ottoman Empire became a thing.

[The Glyphstone]

Does everybody in Baron/the FFVerse have profession/job/class levels?

[ArlEammon]

Does everybody in Baron/the FFVerse have profession/job/class levels?

No. Nearly all humans would have to be farmers except for a few hundred soldiers to feed the people I think.

[Story Time]

The Ottoman empire did not exist in 800. The tribes of Turks that would eventually form the majority ethnic group weren't yet even in Asia Minor. It would be *half a millenium* before the Ottoman Empire became a thing.

Yes, I am aware of that. :smallsmile:

The moors and berbers...would be too far away. Only if Baron tried to spread onto Europe proper would they become issues, I think, but that wouldn't happen until after most of the normal England land-mass had been subdued by their culture if they decided to subdue it.

The Byzantines...would be a threat on land. I admit it, I love Byzantine architecture. I love how sturdy their fortifications were. But to get to England they'd have to use boats...and would be sunk by one projectile per ship from the air of the Baronians knew of it. ( They might not! It's possible that they could be caught unaware so I admit that for the sake of completeness. :smallsmile: )


1


Does everybody in Baron/the FFVerse have profession/job/class levels?

...mostly. Any person who's not an adventurer in Final Fantasy usually qualifies as a Professional Town-Person. They have jobs and make crafts. Farms and farmers would exist, but are not normally considered a town inhabitant.

Towns also have their own militias and small armies or navies in some cases.

It's not really inaccurate to say that most civilians would be farmers, but neither is it completely accurate ( from what I know ) to assume so low of a warrior count for a standing army.

Many armies in Final Fantasy have amazingly superior technological equipment including weapons and armor. Final Fantasy IV, in this case, does not have such. It's more of a sword-and-shield knight fighting on an air-ship deck.

[The Glyphstone]

...mostly. Any person who's not an adventurer in Final Fantasy usually qualifies as a Professional Town-Person. They have jobs and make crafts. Farms and farmers would exist, but are not normally considered a town inhabitant.

Towns also have their own militias and small armies or navies in some cases.

It's not really inaccurate to say that most civilians would be farmers, but neither is it completely accurate ( from what I know ) to assume so low of a warrior count for a standing army.

Many armies in Final Fantasy have amazingly superior technological equipment including weapons and armor. Final Fantasy IV, in this case, does not have such. It's more of a sword-and-shield knight fighting on an air-ship deck.

I meant specifically the PC/Adventuring classes. The OP said Baron has a population of 5,000. Someone later in the thread said that meant 1,000 5-person adventuring parties of White Mage/Black Mage/Fighter/Thief/Dragoon wreaking havoc, and I was asking if Baron had no non-combatants or civilians.

[DiscipleofBob]

I meant specifically the PC/Adventuring classes. The OP said Baron has a population of 5,000. Someone later in the thread said that meant 1,000 5-person adventuring parties of White Mage/Black Mage/Fighter/Thief/Dragoon wreaking havoc, and I was asking if Baron had no non-combatants or civilians.

Actually I mentioned 100 5-man teams. In addition to a military sizable enough to take on the rest of the world of FF4 easily, Baron also has a corp of engineers able to crew and maintain at least a dozen or so airships, blacksmiths, craftsmen, alchemists, and the occasional dancers. It should be noted that most civilians probably have basic training in either magic or the military arts though.

[Story Time]

[...]and I was asking if Baron had no non-combatants or civilians.

The games do, technically, have non-combatants and civilians in the sense that there are characters that choose not to adventure. But even those civilians who choose to adventure are pretty seriously dangerous. Taking an example right of Final Fantasy IV, there's a character who's the chief engineer of Baron's air-ship fleet. He carries a massive hammer and smacks things with it ( air ship engines, monsters, bad guys... ).

I'd feel comfortable saying that the citizens of Baron Town ( the town, not the nation ) all contribute to the Item Shop, The Weapon Shop, and the Armor Shop in some way. Given this, they'd all have the equipment, but maybe not the training or practice, to put them on the level of a high-grade militia / army if they were forced to fight and English army.

By the way, Charlemagne was crowned in the year eight hundred. If Baron was going to make any kind of diplomatic friendship, it would be with him and his people.

[Morph Bark]

One thing that has apparently not been considered yet: back in those days, people in Europe were pretty heavily anti-witchcraft (and thus, anti-magic). This would prevent many attempts even from the Baron side to become friendly.

Heck, even in my own country it took at least a few hundred more years before they developed "official" witch tests that cleared a lot of innocent names, but if even then someone had come across an actual mage they would probably have an instinctual offensive reaction ("Burn the witch!").

[DiscipleofBob]

One thing that has apparently not been considered yet: back in those days, people in Europe were pretty heavily anti-witchcraft (and thus, anti-magic). This would prevent many attempts even from the Baron side to become friendly.

Heck, even in my own country it took at least a few hundred more years before they developed "official" witch tests that cleared a lot of innocent names, but if even then someone had come across an actual mage they would probably have an instinctual offensive reaction ("Burn the witch!").

True, but unlike our unfortunate global history of using witches as an experimental energy source, Baron is full of state-supported openly-practicing magic users. They could try murdering the casters, but they'd have to get around the rest of the forces protecting them first.

[Kato]

True, but unlike our unfortunate global history of using witches as an experimental energy source, Baron is full of state-supported openly-practicing magic users. They could try murdering the casters, but they'd have to get around the rest of the forces protecting them first.

You're right but I think he meant any try from Baron's side not to be aggressive would encounter the problem of Christian nations claiming they worship the devil for one reason or another. That would be really problematic.


Also, I'll stick to what I said and many others. Baron has way too few people. Yes, they could create one town/castle but they would have a hard time expanding. They could easily raid wherever they want how much they want but unless they really take their time increasing their populace or decide to have a damn low population density in their kingdom they won't rule England within the next ten generations or something. And that's a few hundred years.

[nyarlathotep]

One thing that has apparently not been considered yet: back in those days, people in Europe were pretty heavily anti-witchcraft (and thus, anti-magic). This would prevent many attempts even from the Baron side to become friendly.

Heck, even in my own country it took at least a few hundred more years before they developed "official" witch tests that cleared a lot of innocent names, but if even then someone had come across an actual mage they would probably have an instinctual offensive reaction ("Burn the witch!").

You don't burn witches you hang or drown them. You burn heretics.

[erikun]

...sure gorilla tactics by other cultures would prove militarily irritating, but not a threat capable of wiping out Baron's entire population.
...Guerrilla. The term is Guerrilla warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare).

[Story Time]

...Guerrilla. The term is Guerrilla warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare).

Thank you for catching that. :smallredface:

[Johel]

One thing that has apparently not been considered yet: back in those days, people in Europe were pretty heavily anti-witchcraft (and thus, anti-magic). This would prevent many attempts even from the Baron side to become friendly.

Heck, even in my own country it took at least a few hundred more years before they developed "official" witch tests that cleared a lot of innocent names, but if even then someone had come across an actual mage they would probably have an instinctual offensive reaction ("Burn the witch!").

Who said Baron NEED to be on friendly term with other people ?
They already had a politic of taking what they wanted back in FF.
Arriving in early medieval Europe, they would just do the same : rule the world but not govern it.

They need ressources for the upkeep of their airships and army ?
They would just take it or force people to gather said ressources, on pain of annihilation.

Also, Europe in the 9th century was far from completely christian.
Witchcraft as understood by the catholic church was still the rule in large parts of Germany, England, Scandinavia and Eastern Europe.
Christianity eventually spread because Kings found it advantageous to be christian to assess their legitimity and impose some kind of social order.
But if another set of believe (aka magic, magitek, ect...) suddenly appear and its followers have the power to REALLY throw fireballs around...
I guess the average dark age warlord wouldn't stick too long to the power of Christ for the sake of Christ only.

It's a matter of practicality :
If the competition use weapons that are efficient, even if they look awefully amorale, you will use them too so as to not get crushed.

[Caewil]

TBH, the witchcraft scares and all the rest of the religious mania really started picking up around the renaissance. Most of the popular portrayals of inquisitions, witch hunts and heresy arise after our period.

[The Glyphstone]

More like they'd find ways to justify the same powers as 'miracles' or 'holy gifts' - the enemy would, of course, be consorting with evil for those same abilities. The guns/cannons/airships would follow a similar route, timescales depending on how quickly it takes to build them versus learning magic.

So Baron would be the undisputed ruler of the world, if they wanted to, for as long as their magic/technology monopoly held up. Once the other powers of the world started copying them, they'd just be one tiny kingdom amidst the status quo, and their tiny population would become a true severe weakness.

[Killer Angel]

Who said Baron NEED to be on friendly term with other people ?
They already had a politic of taking what they wanted back in FF.
Arriving in early medieval Europe, they would just do the same : rule the world but not govern it.

Tu rule something you had to be there, and they're only 5.000.
To rule (and even more to govern), they'll need allies, and many of them must be willing to do it. Otherwise, you'll have continuous rebellions, counted in dozens each years. They cannot hold a world by themselves.

This means sharing some of their tech / magic power with their allies. This will give them domination for some centuries, then internal conflicts will arise, scattering the empire.

[Morph Bark]

You don't burn witches you hang or drown them. You burn heretics.

You must be from some strange place in the world where witches can drown. :smalltongue:

[DiscipleofBob]

More like they'd find ways to justify the same powers as 'miracles' or 'holy gifts' - the enemy would, of course, be consorting with evil for those same abilities. The guns/cannons/airships would follow a similar route, timescales depending on how quickly it takes to build them versus learning magic.

So Baron would be the undisputed ruler of the world, if they wanted to, for as long as their magic/technology monopoly held up. Once the other powers of the world started copying them, they'd just be one tiny kingdom amidst the status quo, and their tiny population would become a true severe weakness.

Almost. I'm pretty sure that the Summons would remain a Mist village tradition that only those of Summoner blood can use. That keeps them in the going for a very long time.

[Johel]

Tu rule something you had to be there, and they're only 5.000.
To rule (and even more to govern), they'll need allies, and many of them must be willing to do it. Otherwise, you'll have continuous rebellions, counted in dozens each years. They cannot hold a world by themselves.

This means sharing some of their tech / magic power with their allies. This will give them domination for some centuries, then internal conflicts will arise, scattering the empire.

No, to GOVERN something, you have to be there.

Ruling a place just mean you don't find much opposition when you want to do something.
That's the way feudalism started : powerful warlords couldn't be everywhere and had no desire to micromanage anyway.
So they just gave lands to other warlords in exchange for their loyalty.
And that was basically the situation in the beginning of the 9th century.

Medieval Kings needed willing vassals because it took months to gather an army if one of such vassal rebelled.
And sieges could take months or even years.
This meant that if many vassals rebelled all at once in different places, the King could very well spend the rest his reign just trying to put down the revolts.
Diplomacy, marriage and other arrangements were therefore better.

But Baron doesn't need months to assemble an army :
They can send decide overnight to send two knights to travel around Europe to a rebellious city... and just blow it away.
They can reach any point in Europe in a matter of days with airships.
This means even dozens of major rebellions would only take a few months to qualm.
And minor rebellions would just be ignored as long as they wouldn't stop Baron to get what it needs.

People would be free to get along with their daily life and local kings, warlords and other leaders would be free to make up laws as they see fit.
But they would HAVE TO give Baron what it wants when it asks for it.
Might be a bit more complicated but that burns down to this in the end :
"-As long as you please me, I let you handle yourself and I don't kill you."

The only real threat would be a direct, massive attack against Baron itself.
But such massive expedition would need to gather a very large feudal army for a very long time.
And given the political picture of 800 AD, that wouldn't happen anytime soon :
Charlemagne was ruling much of Western Europe, back then.
But he was constently at war against just everybody, outside and inside his own "empire".
If Baron kills Charlemagne in 800 AD, they would just send a powerful message to the rest of Europe :
It would have taken nealry 30 years to the "savior of Christiandom" to build his Empire through constant warfare.
And it would have taken only a few weeks to Baron to undo it.
As soon as Charlemagne would die, his sons would battle among each other for the throne.
And his vassals would probably take their distances to avoid gambling on the "wrong horse".
Add to this the moores to the South, the Byzantine empire to the East, the Danes to the North...
And you got a picture where NOBODY would have the time, manpower, wealth and influence to mount a massive expedition in the hearth of Great Britain.

Also, given the individual power of any Dark Knight or Dragoon Knight, assassination operations could be launched just to discourage such attempt.
The message would be clear : Baron is not invincible.
But if we see an army in Great Britain, we will just kill your leader and then go on to pillage your cities.

Since loyalty in the 9th century lied into men rather than nations or countries, the death of the enemy leaders would just scather their armies.
Or at least throw it into disarray as internal power struggle between minor warlords errupt.
Given the already messed up political situation, Baron would have free hands to attack whoever would look the more threatening.

[ArlEammon]

Has anyone considered that, with their magical medicines, Baron could live for decades longer than the average Medieval citizen? That should help with population rates.

[Story Time]

I did... :smallredface:

[ArlEammon]

I did... :smallredface:

Ah... Also, has anyone considered that airships could be used for commercial purposes ? ;)

[Story Time]

Yes! Air-ships would make a fantastic armed and armored caravan for transporting goods from all around the world to all around the world! :smallbiggrin:

The only real problem would be getting the other cultures to trade with them. Native North America? :smalleek:

[ArlEammon]

Yes! Air-ships would make a fantastic armed and armored caravan for transporting goods from all around the world to all around the world! :smallbiggrin:

The only real problem would be getting the other cultures to trade with them. Native North America? :smalleek:

Forget Native North America. China's where it's at.

[Story Time]

As mentioned previously, the trouble would be in convincing any major culture to trade with Baron whose ships fly through the air. I'm kind of hazy on my Asian history and particularly in China. I know that they had gun powder, hot air balloons, and lots of other things, but not necessarily when.

The reason why Northern Native American cultures came to mind is that they might be more willing to accept and trade with sky sailors. It might not be lucrative, maybe, but that's what comes to mind.

[Morph Bark]

Forget Native North America. China's where it's at.

I'm betting India and the African kingdoms have plenty exotic goods to offer as well.