Craven and imrpoving my Factotum

[Bloodgruve]

Wall of text incoming, my apologies in advance.

I am getting ready for my level 12 selections with my Factotum. My character just got a bit messy with a resurrection which switched my Dex and Str. Sucks but its not the end of the world. We are moving closer to 'high level play' and I want to keep my character competitive and useful.

My current build is Iaijutsu Focused Factotum10/Swordsage1 Dark Creature Whisper Gnome.

Feats with 2 flaws are TWF, Weapon Finesse, Font of Inspiration x2, Shadow Blade (DM approved with Quickrazors) and Item Familiar.

I'm pretty good with getting Iaijutsu Focus using HiPS and other tactics. Consistently attacking with ~6d6 damage with 2 to 5 attacks per round. I am looking for ways to continue to improve my damage output and I feel that I am at a plateau with my current build. I am the glass cannon of the group strangely.

I may be able to adjust a couple feats at next level because of my DM's rez antics. I am thinking of switching out weapon finesse and/or shadow blade for maybe another FoI and Craven. Dark Stalker is another option to be less easily shutdown.

Finally the questions..

Would I need to burn an inspiration point per attack to get SA and Craven or would Craven hit a flat footed/dex denied opponent without the SA trigger?

Also, what is a good path class wise for the next few levels? I am thinking of taking Factotum 11 for the ability to get around spell resistance then moving on to something else. Maybe a class to work with craven like Spellthief w/Master Spellthief or something.

Input is appreciated.

Blood~

[eggs]

Well, Craven only works when making a sneak attack, so you'd at least need to have Canny Strike active. That makes it a bit weird in practice, but it's also a little sketchy whether Canny Strike qualifies for Craven - either way, it's something you'll probably want to run by the DM and get specific input on how it would be implemented.

With Factotum, the best progression is always either more Factotum or something cheesy and self-contained like Ur-Priest or Beholder Mage. Nothing stacks with it for its class abilities, or its spells. But occasional Swordsage dips could be worthwhile, if you're getting into melee, and Assassin's Stance would shift Craven to "always on."

[Vladislav]

Actually, there's nothing sketchy about it

Prerequisite
cannot be immune to fear, Sneak attack class feature,
The RAW answer is clear: a factotum has the ability to gain Sneak Attack damage, but doesn't have the Sneak Attack class feature, hence doesn't qualify for Craven. Neither does Assassin's Stance help, because, again, it's not Sneak Attack class feature. Admittedly, most DMs are willing to look the other way with respect to it, but at the very least, IMO, Craven damage should not trigger when you don't spend and IP to gain Sneak Attack damage.

[Bloodgruve]

Craven damage should not trigger when you don't spend and IP to gain Sneak Attack damage.

That's what I was thinking but I thought I'd check here to see what people thought.

Another Swordsage level could be good for it would give me Assassin's stance and my DM would allow that to qualify.

TY
Blood~

[Rubik]

Both classes grant you sneak attack as class features. Just because they have slight addenda on how to trigger them doesn't make them not sneak attack.

[Vladislav]

This is wrong. Rogue has a class feature named "Sneak Attack". Factotum has a class feature named "Cunning Strike". Which allows him to deal Sneak Attack damage, but alas, it's not a class feature named "Sneak Attack".

Swordsage has a class feature named "Stances" which allows him to deal Sneak Attack damage via Assassin's Stance, but again, no class feature named "Sneak Attack".

On a further example, a 5th level Wizard can cast the spell Levitate, but he has no class feature named "Levitation". He can cast the spell Alter Self, but has no class feature "Alternate Shape". And so on.

If you think it's splitting hairs, you are of course right, it is, but RAW is all about splitting hairs. If you want to bypass such pedantry in your game and just allow both, it's ok.

[Rubik]

But they both have class features that grant them sneak attack.

It's like using the Fly spell to qualify for Flyby Attack.

[eggs]

The last 4 posts pretty make it pretty easy to stick with "sketchy." :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

But they both have class features that grant them sneak attack.
Of course, that's not what the Craven requirement is.

Sneak attack class feature
class features that grant them sneak attack
Should every Ranger qualify for Craven?
Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.)
Hunter’s Eye: Gain +1d6 sneak attack damage/3 caster levels for 1 round.
Because Hunter's Eye is a Ranger spell, and any Ranger could use a wand with that spell, they have a class feature which qualifies them for Craven just as much as a Factotum who could spend an IP on Cunning Strike.

[Bloodgruve]

The game I'm in is the first campaign that my DM has ever run. The other players in my group are not real good with mechanics and bad at optimizing. I am challenging myself to play by the rules where the other players are getting some DM concessions.

That being said, what would be a good class to dip for SA if needed? As I stated before would Spellthief w/Master Spellthief be a terrible option?

Or should I forget about Craven and look elsewhere for more damage output?

TYVM
Blood~

[Chronos]

Personally, I'd argue that Cunning Strike, Assassin's Stance, or Hunter's Eye all qualify you to take Craven, but that it only does anything for you while you have one of those active.

[Rubik]

Personally, I'd argue that Cunning Strike, Assassin's Stance, or Hunter's Eye all qualify you to take Craven, but that it only does anything for you while you have one of those active.I agree. Whitetext

[Bloodgruve]

Sounds good, I'll grab another level of swordsage then. What would be a good path after Factotum 11/Swordsage2? More Swordsage or something else?

[Roguenewb]

CHAMELEON! Oh darn, whisper gnome. Factotum always struck as a class that playing 20 levels of ain't bad. The 19th level capstone is *so* sweet.

[Rubik]

Sounds good, I'll grab another level of swordsage then. What would be a good path after Factotum 11/Swordsage2? More Swordsage or something else?Totemist 2/barbarian 1 would be great, given that you can get yourself some really nifty abilities with it, as well as a pouncing charge with lots of natural attacks. Chameleon 2 (with the Human Heritage feat) is another good dip, since it nets you a floating feat. If you want to go up to chameleon 9, that's good too. The sonic version of pyrokineticist 1 would give you a melee touch attack that's usable with Power Attack.

[Bloodgruve]

If I went totemist2 with Garillon Arms, Chaos Roc Span and Dragons Tail I could gain 7 natural attacks. I currently have 3 attacks with quickrazors on a full attack. Can I Natural Attack x7 after my 3 Quickrazors?

TY
Blood~

[eggs]

If I went totemist2 with Garillon Arms, Chaos Roc Span and Dragons Tail I could gain 7 natural attacks. I currently have 3 attacks with quickrazors on a full attack. Can I Natural Attack x7 after my 3 Quickrazors?

TY
Blood~
Be sure to read all the entries involved. In that example, you'd get your Quickrazor attacks, then 3 Claw and 2 Wing buffets as secondary attacks. The Dragon Tail's attacks are their own weapon, and the Wing attacks have their own set of difficulties incorporating into this routine (by being reach weapons and nonlethal-only, they don't work well in other attack routines, except against Large+ nonconstruct, nonundead noncasting monsters).

[Bloodgruve]

Ok, So Dragon Tail is not considered a natural attack.. And the out of the 4 Girallon Claws 3 are natural attack and one is not a natural attack?

Therefore I would have the option of

3x Quickrazors -or- 1 Claw -or- Tail
+
3 Claws and 2 Wing secondary attacks?

I assumed Dragon Tail and the primary Girallon claw were also natural attacks and could be used in any combination of natural attacks per full attack as a primary or secondary as I saw fit to designate.

I have been interested in running a Totemist.

TY
Blood~

[eggs]

Ok, So Dragon Tail is not considered a natural attack.. And the out of the 4 Girallon Claws 3 are natural attack and one is not a natural attack?
Dragon Tail is a natural weapon, but it requires its own standard action to use (the Dragon Magic soulmelds are really weird; I doubt that the writer had much familiarity with the incarnum classes, or how they work).

Girallon arms are also all natural weapons, but they stipulate that the primary claw attack is not compatible with weapon attacks.

So with a full round to attack, the choices are:
-Quickrazor full attack + 3 secondary claws + 2 secondary wings
-1 primary claw + 3 secondary claws + 2 secondary wings
-Dragon tail as a standard action

This gets even more convoluted when you account for the Sphinx Claw hand bind. It gives a slightly altered version of pounce, which explicitly allows attacks with all natural weapons - which includes the weird ones that use their own actions, like Dragon Tail and Threefold Mask of the Chimera. But using that here would rule out Quickrazors at all (at least without a Dorje of Graft Weapon, just to make things that extra bit more complex).

[Chronos]

Dragon Tail is a natural weapon, but it requires its own standard action to use (the Dragon Magic soulmelds are really weird; I doubt that the writer had much familiarity with the incarnum classes, or how they work).Then again, a lot of the soulmelds in MoI itself are similarly weird. Check out the bite attacks from Threefold Mask of the Chimera, for instance, which have their own rules and can't be used as part of a normal attack routine.

[Bloodgruve]

What could I do to maximize the number of quickrazor attacks I get?

I am looking at Bloodclaw Master for BAB and TWF fun maybe? If go Martial classes from her on out I will get lvl 8 maneuvers and that would open up Raging Mongoose or Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip by 20. Girallon would give me a ~550 damage nova, think Mongoose could be more.

Any other classes that could help with attacks per round? Totemist would be fun but I'd lose IF on them.

TY
Blood~

[Lonely Tylenol]

But they both have class features that grant them sneak attack.

It's like using the Fly spell to qualify for Flyby Attack.

Or using Polymorph to qualify for Natural Spell!

Hey, wait a minute...

EDIT: seriously, though, you could do worse than advancing Factotum and taking Font of Inspiration again.

[Rubik]

Or using Polymorph to qualify for Natural Spell!

Hey, wait a minute...Does not follow.