Guys roleplaying girls?

[Morithias]

It's not a double standard when women are portrayed the exact same way and far worse. I don't want to minimise your concerns, but I personally wouldn't start complaining about the portrayal of men in the media until the portrayal of women in the media has been addressed. As I see it, they've had it worse and they've had to endure it for far longer than us..

So two wrongs make a right? It's not the portrayal that's the double standard I'm annoyed at. It's the fact that men to put it bluntly, aren't allowed to complain about it, and when they do (like I JUST DID) it is pushed aside as no big deal, or something only a he-man-woman-hater would say.

Just because they've suffered longer, doesn't allow them to start doing the same to us. It's hypocritical, nothing more.

[Shadowknight12]

So two wrongs make a right? It's not the portrayal that's the double standard I'm annoyed at. It's the fact that men to put it bluntly, aren't allowed to complain about it, and when they do (like I JUST DID) it is pushed aside as no big deal, or something only a he-man-woman-hater would say.

Just because they've suffered longer, doesn't allow them to start doing the same to us. It's hypocritical, nothing more.

You're right, it's not fair and that's not something that should be done, but we really do not have the right to complain until their portrayal has been solved first. It's basic triage. If you have two people who have been shot in the leg and they can both be saved, you'll tend the one that's been injured the longest because that's the one that needs your help the most.

[Morithias]

You're right, it's not fair and that's not something that should be done, but we really do not have the right to complain until their portrayal has been solved first. It's basic triage. If you have two people who have been shot in the leg and they can both be saved, you'll tend the one that's been injured the longest because that's the one that needs your help the most.

Um...no you don't. In first aid situations, you take care of the small stuff first followed by the larger stuff with a few exceptions. The logic being that if you have 4 people, you don't waste time trying to save the guy who is already out cold and possibly dead. You go back and forth between them, ignoring people who are fatally injured, cause 3 people saved from medium damage that may cause death is better than 1 person saved from heavy damage.

Logically if one applies first aid logic, we should prevent further damage and sexism by stopping the male stuff from happening, then use that as an example to stop the female stuff.

But hey, what do I know about first aid, I'm just a qualified standard first aid CPR + AED graduate.

Edit: Also if both can be saved, you go back and forth between them. So logically men SHOULD be complaining and we should be taking care of ALL the sexism at once, not just that towards girls.

[Shadowknight12]

Um...no you don't. In first aid situations, you take care of the small stuff first followed by the larger stuff with a few exceptions. The logic being that if you have 4 people, you don't waste time trying to save the guy who is already out cold and possibly dead. You go back and forth between them, ignoring people who are fatally injured, cause 3 people saved from medium damage that may cause death is better than 1 person saved from heavy damage.

Logically if one applies first aid logic, we should prevent further damage and sexism by stopping the male stuff from happening, then use that as an example to stop the female stuff.

But hey, what do I know about first aid, I'm just a qualified standard first aid CPR + AED graduate.

Hence why I said "and they can both be saved." Triage separates between the people who will be saved regardless of your intervention, those that will die regardless of your intervention and those who can be saved ONLY because of your intervention.

If we assume we have two identical injuries that both require your intervention to be saved (as that was the case I presented) you tend to the one that has been suffering the injury the longest first, because that's the one that represents the most risk. As evidenced by the person who has been injured the longest, that wound is not immediately fatal and the other person can definitely wait until you've finished treating the other one first. This is, obviously, assuming wounds of similar nature, damage and necessity of treatment. I was being generous and fair by using that analogy. To me, rather than a bullet wound, the portrayal of males in the media is more like a shallow cut when compared to the portrayal of females.

To me, trying to solve the issue of sexism towards males first is very much like a person demanding their sprained ankle to be treated immediately when the medical staff is busy tending someone who just suffered multiple fractures.

[Morithias]

Hence why I said "and they can both be saved." Triage separates between the people who will be saved regardless of your intervention, those that will die regardless of your intervention and those who can be saved ONLY because of your intervention.

To me, trying to solve the issue of sexism towards males first is very much like a person demanding their sprained ankle to be treated immediately when the medical staff is busy tending someone who just suffered multiple fractures.

Yeah I missed the "Both can saved thing" Sorry.

Yeah, but this isn't some life or death situation, it's a double hypocritical standard that is slowly reversing everything.

It's revenge...nothing more, and revenge is a sucker's game.

[Knaight]

Just because they've suffered longer, doesn't allow them to start doing the same to us. It's hypocritical, nothing more.

When it comes to media portrayal, it isn't "them" "doing the same to us". The media portrayal of men is largely controlled by men, as those in upper media positions are largely men internationally. As for the thought that a man could never play a well thought out female character, that's been pushed by all of one person in this thread so far, while most everyone else has torn his ideas apart. So drop the battle of the sexes spin, as it's completely incorrect. What's actually happening is that the same people putting forth horrible stereotypical representations of women are putting forth horrible stereotypical representations of men - which makes a lot of sense, when you consider how the various gender essentialist narratives tend to be closer to methods by which one allocates their massive reserve of misanthropy than anything else.

[Avilan the Grey]

As for the ladette thing..I never found that made sense. It's like you're saying the only way for a girl to be a positive role model is for her to reject being feminine, which sends the message that "unless you basically pretend to be a guy, and reject your biological sex you're nobody".

No, I mean I find it sexy. Simple as that.

[dehro]

I dislike chavs whatever kind of underwear they wear..and they don't get any better if they go commando.
so no, ladettes don't really do it for me

[Shadowknight12]

Yeah I missed the "Both can saved thing" Sorry.

Yeah, but this isn't some life or death situation, it's a double hypocritical standard that is slowly reversing everything.

It's revenge...nothing more, and revenge is a sucker's game.

I understand it, and I agree, but we have to have empathy for the other side. We have to put ourselves in their shoes. We have to imagine ourselves in their place, to pay attention to how women are portrayed in the media. When it comes to car sales, the typical image is the car with a pretty woman in skimpy clothing right next to it. Imagine if it was a man instead, a man whose only job is to look pretty.

Outside of male models, strippers and some male actors, where do you see men hired just to be pretty and wear something enticing? And even in the case of the aforementioned male models, strippers and actors, do you know what's the female to male ratio in those professions? In acting, it may be close to 1:1, but if we take the subset of actors who are hired not to act, but to look pretty in the background, the ratio again skews towards female.

In movies, series, videogames and stories, what's more likely? A rugged man, charming gentleman or awkward nerdy boy doing the world-saving and being the protagonist, or a female equivalent? Female protagonists do exist (especially as of late), but the ratio remains firmly male.

Do I even need to mention the glass ceiling?

Revenge is bad, yes, and we have to fix the double standard and gender inequality, but we have to start where it's been doing the most damage to our society.

[Astrella]

Uhm, Terraoblivion and kamikasei sorta summed up most of my thoughts already.

I'm a trans gal; and even before I figured that out I felt uncomfortable playing male characters, and considering I haven't started transitioning yet playing female characters sorta serves as escapism / exploring my identity for me...

[Man on Fire]

You're right, it's not fair and that's not something that should be done, but we really do not have the right to complain until their portrayal has been solved first.

Or we can fix both problems at the same time. Seeing as they're just both symphtoms of the same problem - overuse of sex as a selling device in media - it would be pretty stupid to fix only one - it's like dealing only with high temperature while ignoring pain in your throat and the fact that you have a flu.

[nedz]

Or we can fix both problems at the same time. Seeing as they're just both symphtoms of the same problem - overuse of sex as a selling device in media - it would be pretty stupid to fix only one - it's like dealing only with high temperature while ignoring pain in your throat and the fact that you have a flu.

I agree with this: they are both symptoms of the same problem and can only be addressed by the same measures. I'm not an optimist on this one though, and its one hell of a thread derail.:smallamused:

Back on track:

I mainly DM, but I have played characters of both genders as have a lot of my players. Its not everyone's cup of tea, but it should not be an issue either.

[Righteous Doggy]

I'm a trans gal; and even before I figured that out I felt uncomfortable playing male characters, and considering I haven't started transitioning yet playing female characters sorta serves as escapism / exploring my identity for me...

Samish, its a long story though, as with all things in life. Also I write for entertainment, and it helps to try and enact things with other people. No one ever treated me differently though, and eventually I decided to stick wtih one gender from a point on, but I'm loosening up a bit.

Anyways, yeah... media portrayels of gender/sexuality are a strange place. Personaly when it comes to video games I like one character, one perfect play through. Bioware leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth because so much is out of my control based on gender/race in a game. It made me feel like things were out of my control. I haven't played mass effect in ages personally, but I remember the appearance of the manly shepard was... sadly limiting. I say let them be similar and leave control over appearance and actions over the player.

I've seen pretty men hired to wear nice things... Its a different show than a girly one, but its still snazzy sometimes. Like I said, in my head both can wear some epic outfits. Just takes a little imagination and interest. To me its not a huge difference, media is a foreign world I'm not a big part of though.

@Nedz What rails? I thought we threw those out of the way a while ago. As long as the discussoin is healthy and has some intellegent thought its nice to see. Its the fate of any longer thread though, and I think its still a little offtopic...
Personally I let people play whatever, but I really want them to have a good reason for what they do. I want them to really get into it and want to play and experience the character... but I might be insane:smalltongue:

[Solaris]

Oh hey, this is fun! I get to find out what I think and say without, you know, actually having to write any of it down - it seems you can supply my part of the conversation for me, with no need for me to exert myself! This is much easier than actually putting effort in to expressing myself. I wonder what I'll turn out to have said next?

*gets popcorn, sits down*

Proceed.
You're not the only one who had that reaction. What it said you said and what you said were two vastly different things.
But hey, quoting people out of context is fun!


Re: Character appearances.
I'd say the "More interesting female appearances than male appearances" thing bears out. Just go check out DeviantArt, or most other fantasy art compilations. The majority of subjects are females. I, for one, am more likely to draw female characters than I am male characters - and not just 'cause I like boobies. There's about three-four different male body types, while there's a lot more variation in female anatomy. Outfits and hair get even more varied.


Re: Sexism.
I've always seen the women willing to get money for being a sex object as just as much a part of the problem as the men willing to fork over money to see her boobies. Honestly, I can't imagine this part ever changing. Straight guys are always going to like looking at women (almost said 'girls', but that could be creepy), and there are always going to be women who like being looked at.

It's not that I'm trying to defend sexism. I'm really not. I'm the most egalitarian man you'll ever meet - right on down to treating women just like one of the guys (and laughing when they say it's rude). I just see a lot of crying wolf - complaining about sexism where there really isn't any, which dilutes complaints about sexism where there really is.

[Rallicus]

I once rolled a female human cleric for my friend's girlfriend. They broke up though, so guess who took up the character? Yup, me.

I didn't know what the hell I was doing. Half the time I'd forget she was even a girl, but my DM would remind me any time a social skill check came about. It was incredibly awkward. Easily my worst character, because I don't understand women at all.

Thankfully that campaign only lasted one session.

As for DMing NPC women: I try my best. No idea how well I do, but I've gotten no complaints. No compliments either, though, so who knows...

[Terraoblivion]

Getting women might be a bit hard. After all we're a rather diverse lot. Unless you mean that, say, Angela Merkel and a 19-year old Laotian farmer are more alike than either of them are to any men, in which case I'd recommend you tried seeing a bit more of the world and a few more people before even thinking about RP'ing.

[Righteous Doggy]

Getting women might be a bit hard. After all we're a rather diverse lot. Unless you mean that, say, Angela Merkel and a 19-year old Laotian farmer are more alike than either of them are to any men, in which case I'd recommend you tried seeing a bit more of the world and a few more people before even thinking about RP'ing.

Getting people is hard, good thing we make up dnd characters! God forbid the world be made with some of the nutters I've seen at the table.

[nedz]

@Nedz What rails? I thought we threw those out of the way a while ago. As long as the discussoin is healthy and has some intellegent thought its nice to see. Its the fate of any longer thread though, and I think its still a little offtopic...
No rails, I was just wary of a huge socio-political thread warp:smalleek:

[Righteous Doggy]

No rails, I was just wary of a huge socio-political thread warp:smalleek:

lol, hopefully that wont' happen.

[Avilan the Grey]

Bioware leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth because so much is out of my control based on gender/race in a game. It made me feel like things were out of my control. I haven't played mass effect in ages personally, but I remember the appearance of the manly shepard was... sadly limiting. I say let them be similar and leave control over appearance and actions over the player.

...Okay, I am really trying to understand this one. No offense meant, but to me (a straight male) I don't really see what you are talking about. Male!Shep can be modified to look in many many different ways and almost all of them very realistic for a human male. You can go from a very soft, nice face to Danny Trejo and beyond.

Apart from that though; I guess I am an oddball, but my problem with "sexyness" in general is NOT that "women are objects" or "two wrongs doesn't make one right". My problem with it is that people attach a stigma to it. I enjoy our fixation with sex, but I wish it was more equal. This is one of the reasons I really love the Old Spice Guy. (But then I am a Scorpio, might have something to do with it :smallwink::smalltongue:)

[dsmiles]

(But then I am a Scorpio, might have something to do with it :smallwink::smalltongue:)Nah. It's just that The Man Your Man Could Smell Like is a B.A.M.F. :smalltongue: