River vs. River: Psycho Assassin Deathmatch!

[Urpriest]

Here's the premise: River Song (Doctor Who) and River Tam (Firefly) find themselves in a nondescript city. Their respective brainwashings activate, with a single instruction: find the other River, and kill her.

Conditions:

River Song has already spent her regenerations bringing the Doctor back.

The allies of either are either unable to interfere or have decided not to.

Neither will "snap out" of their instructions until the other River is dead.

Either is otherwise fully in possession of their mental faculties, able to use all tactics normally at their disposal.

Neither can leave the immediate environs of the city, and in particular River Song cannot acquire a means to travel through time.

Given these conditions, who would win?:smallcool:

[thegurullamen]

Given these conditions, who would win?:smallcool:

Who's writing the episode?

If Whedon, it could go either way. If anyone else, Song. Song's tactics are long range, involve subterfuge and rarely if ever involve a straight up fight. Subterfuge against a psychic is out, so that leaves her with hiding (since it's a city that shouldn't be hard, because she can fool the people who live there if not Tam) and finding a good sniper's perch/approach. Tam might be smart, but in killer mode, she's not subtle and that makes her easy to track and thus avoid. Advantage goes to Song here.

If Whedon's writing, no matter what gun Song comes up with, it won't work because female melee>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>guns for some reason. Here, Tam will either win by overpowering Song or Song will win with some clever Xanatos Gambit Deus Ex Machina or some DEM drugs/tech/backup plans.

[Das Platyvark]

River Song proceeds to shoot the hat off Summer Glau's head and blow the smoke away from her gun while striking a pose. She then uses her EPIC SUE POWERS to crush Tam after outsmarting her (perfectly) with time shenanigans. Bonus points if she can fit a "Hello Sweetie" in there somewhere.

[DiscipleofBob]

Question regarding the given scenario: How far apart are the two Rivers?

If they're already in enough distance for River Tam to close the distance and enter melee combat range, than River Tam takes the win fairly quickly. But if there's time for River Song to retreat, hide, formulate a plan, and take out River Tam from a distance, then River Song takes it. River Song also functions better blending into the crowd and taking more social tasks like gathering information, bartering for weapons, etcetera. River Tam when triggered is basically a mindless killer with no social skills whatsoever.

[LordVader]

I give it to River Tam.

River Tam represents the pinnacle of human capability, and is psychic to boot. While Song is capable, River is better.

River has also integrated her "killer" mode by the end of Serenity, and thus will be able to act competently in pursuit of Song. Tam only goes berserk because they specifically triggered her to do so; her default assassin mode is not "berserk rampage".

Should things come down to head-to-head combat, Tam wins, unquestionably. Song's got an edge in skills and ability vis a vis using the city, but Tam's psychic powers will go a long way toward closing that gap.

[TheLogman]

River Tam isn't exclusively a melee-assassin, the scene where she shot three guys while not looking at them, with only the shots that they had taken to locate them indicates that she has substantial marksmanship abilities.

Admittedly, we haven't seen River Tam use anything longer range than a pistol, but I have no reason to believe that she wouldn't be just as perfectly capable with a longer range rifle.

I think the biggest question here is the subtly to which the characters work, and the degree to which they can acquire a weapon.

Even with an integrated assassin personality (which isn't the premise given in the op), River Tam still isn't very socially capable, UNLESS she hits that unique groove she displayed here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZQbSaN8R_o), where her social abilities and psychic abilities engage so well that she can get anything she wants. If this is the case, there's no question that River could charm her way to a high powered rifle. Her psychic abilities working in tandem with a brain that has chosen to cooperate means a girl that can "win" any conversation to her favor.

River Song is a great shot and a damn smart girl, but she isn't psychic. If she gets lucky enough to find her way to a rifle before River Tam psychics her way to one, then Song stands a chance, depending on the reliability of the distance to which Tam's psychic operate, and assuming that River Tam doesn't realize what's going on via psychic powers.

They're both capable fighters, and when they want to be (and Tam's brain cooperates), they can easily charm their way to something pretty.

But River Tam's psychic abilities give her an edge in combat, social interactions, and the ability to acquire weapons, assuming her brain decides to cooperate (she clicks just right) that just can't be beat by River Song.

[Brother Oni]

I'd also think it'd depend on how much timelord River Song still has in her. If she still has their ability to see events in time (in paraphrased Doctor's words, 'see that which must, that which must not and that which may be'), she may put up more of a fight than you'd think, since precognition would trump telepathy.

[Xondoure]

I'd also think it'd depend on how much timelord River Song still has in her. If she still has their ability to see events in time (in paraphrased Doctor's words, 'see that which must, that which must not and that which may be'), she may put up more of a fight than you'd think, since precognition would trump telepathy.

When has a time lord ever been very precognitive? By seeing events in time they mean they know if a timeline or event is possible or if it will cause a paradox so big that the mere power of plot hole could not contain it.

[Brother Oni]

When has a time lord ever been very precognitive? By seeing events in time they mean they know if a timeline or event is possible or if it will cause a paradox so big that the mere power of plot hole could not contain it.

I agree that they're probably not very precognitive, but a lot of the time, they can see far enough to affect things.

We know they can see possible and static events, so it seems reasonable to assume they can see what leads up to these events. This leads to the reason why a timelord always seems to be in the right place at the right time is because they can see where they need to be and what to do or say to achieve what they want.

A good example of this would Ten's interaction with the ship owner in Voyage of the Damned, something along the lines of "All those words and not a single one wasted", where he manages to figure out the villain's plan on the fly and even get him into monologuing about it. Admittedly it's probably due in no small part to the Doctor's fast talking skills in the delivery of it, but knowing nearly exactly what to say is something else at work.

Since they don't mention this fact very much, they probably take it for granted, much like one of our senses, so while it looks like the power of plot saving their hides every time, it's just their natural abilities instead.


Edit: Sorry, no. Not even I can swallow that excuse for the Doctor's plot armour. :smalltongue:

[Anecronwashere]

Simple if Whedon is writing. What is Song's most-used (at least we are told is most used) style of killing/neutralizing? Lipstick.
She has been shown to use that quite effectively (Doctor in Let's Kill Hitler, that guard, it's apparently her main method of escape, probably some other times)

I predict it'll get to close quarters Song gives a quick peck on the lips during a pause in the fighting and then watches Tam die.

Though that is a bit meta.


Assuming a generic writer then it's a toss-up. Tam is a cold-killer but so is Song, Song just has a jovial bearing ontop of that. Though considering her target was the Doctor that's probably part of the program.
I'd give it to Tam if she can avoid the Kiss-Of-Death attack simply from the telepathy as opposed to Timey-Wimey Precog.


On Precog, I reckon they have it but in a many-futures scenario. Except in Fixed-Points. Then they see the many-futures converge into the fixed point.


Another factor on Song's side: Time-Lords can feel even tiny movement. Quote (9th doctor): "The first time they tell you that the world's turning and you just can't quite believe it 'cause everything looks like it's standin' still. I can feel it. The turn of the Earth. The ground beneath our feet is spinnin' at 1,000 miles an hour and the entire planet is hurtling around the sun at 67,000 miles an hour, and I can feel it."

[Tyndmyr]

River Tam isn't exclusively a melee-assassin, the scene where she shot three guys while not looking at them, with only the shots that they had taken to locate them indicates that she has substantial marksmanship abilities.

Admittedly, we haven't seen River Tam use anything longer range than a pistol, but I have no reason to believe that she wouldn't be just as perfectly capable with a longer range rifle.

Thank you! Yeah, this is a remarkably notable use of weapons skills...they were not easy pistol shots to begin with, and she did them firing blind.

I also give the win to River Tam. Also, I want to watch the fight.

[Brother Oni]

Thank you! Yeah, this is a remarkably notable use of weapons skills...they were not easy pistol shots to begin with, and she did them firing blind.

Ah, but did she actually fire blind, or did she 'see' them beforehand with her psychic abilities?

The former is very impressive and is what the others thought she was capable of. Serenity fills out River's character and gives a basis for her powers, which while making her equally practically effective, not as actually impressive.

[DiscipleofBob]

Thank you! Yeah, this is a remarkably notable use of weapons skills...they were not easy pistol shots to begin with, and she did them firing blind.

I also give the win to River Tam. Also, I want to watch the fight.

True, but that was a close-quarters firefight. If it was actually a long-range battle, things might have been different.

(emphasis on "might have," all we've got is speculation.)

[polity4life]

Ah, but did she actually fire blind, or did she 'see' them beforehand with her psychic abilities?

The former is very impressive and is what the others thought she was capable of. Serenity fills out River's character and gives a basis for her powers, which while making her equally practically effective, not as actually impressive.

I think her glance from behind cover gave her all the data she required to assess their positions, where they could possibly move given the time difference between that glance and when she opened fire, and calculated a probability distribution as to where they would likely be when she pulled the trigger. I'm not sure if telepathy or psychic prowess was involved; I think it was just figuring out the odds with superhuman speed and accuracy.

[Jallorn]

I think her glance from behind cover gave her all the data she required to assess their positions, where they could possibly move given the time difference between that glance and when she opened fire, and calculated a probability distribution as to where they would likely be when she pulled the trigger. I'm not sure if telepathy or psychic prowess was involved; I think it was just figuring out the odds with superhuman speed and accuracy.

As Kaylee put it, "She just did the math."

[Lamech]

I'm guessing barring any super-tech from River Song, Tam would win. When training Tam, I assume they spent at least as much time on modern weapons and tactics as they did on ancient weapons and had to hand combat. Which means she would have absurd weapon skills, and could easily get a gun with her psychic powers.

Now Song might do something silly like assemble fancy piece of super-tech since Dr. Who has a much superior tech base. If Song has a blaster and a shield she's gonna win the fight.