Too hard encounters?

[Silma]

Hi there playgrounders!!!
I'm currently DMing a 4e campaign, and I need some advice.

The party is at level 3. The 4 players are:
Dragonborn Warlord (Bravura Presence)
Drow Executioner (Red Scales)
Human Sorcerer (Dragon Magic - Acid)
Dwarf Fighter (wielding a maul)

I was thinking of having them face a level 5/6 young green dragon (the actual dragon in mm1 is level 5, but I'm thinking of raising him a level). Now, a moderate encounter for a 4 person party is around 600 EXP. The level 5 version of the dragon is at 1000 EXP. I'm not entirely positive they can handle it, even if they save all their dailies for the boss fight.

The thing is, I'm planning on giving them plenty of options when it comes to the boss fight. If they play it right they might not have to fight at all. See, the dragon is after some sort of treasure and he is not interested at all in the PCs. As long as they just leave him alone. And the actual quest that they are given is to check if there is a dragon in the forest, not to actually fight him.
So they can:
~convince him to leave.
~avoid him entirely and just report back to town as they are told to.
~help him retrieve the treasure and even get a small share.
~slay the dragon.

So, they always have an option to not fight him. The dragon himself is not very aggressive unless provoked. But still, if they decide to fight him, it's gonna be pretty hard.

So my question is: is it ok to put them against a very hard boss when thay have so many options?

And in general: When is it ok to put your players against challenges that they can never/hardly beat?

[Tegu8788]

If they are used to having options to get around combat, then sure. If they always charge head first into battle that might be a bit iffier, but here's an idea.

If they fight it, and are losing badly and don't look to be running, consider having a couple dragon slayers NPCs show up at the 11th hour to help them out. Either drive the dragon away or kill it, and help the bloodied PCs survive.

[Musco]

For a warm-up, on our first session, I sent that MM1 Dragon as a Random Encounter against a fully rested party of level 1, although there were 7 characters (however, they hadn't played with the system, or together, yet, and had no gear whatsoever aside from the mundane starting equipment, so I think it evens out - not to mention the difference in HP, surge values and potions they might have). They took a beating (more at first because they were terrified of it, then they saw they actually had a shot), but I had already decided in advance that, since that was a random encounter (the Dragon was just hunting, and they were the best meal in sight), the Dragon would flee when bloodied, and the Dragon actually almost died trying to flee, so I say they can handle it at level 3, at least until bloodying it (and then you can have something happen and end the fight). I planned on giving them half the XP for the battle, but since they actually made the dragon flee or die (sure, he could have taken 1-2 with him, but it would not be smart, it'd me metagaming, so he fleed instead), I awarded them the full amount.

[Silma]

If they are used to having options to get around combat, then sure. If they always charge head first into battle that might be a bit iffier, but here's an idea.

If they fight it, and are losing badly and don't look to be running, consider having a couple dragon slayers NPCs show up at the 11th hour to help them out. Either drive the dragon away or kill it, and help the bloodied PCs survive.

I think they'll run if they see they're losing. They're pretty smart when it comes to tactics. Bun in case they don't, bringing NPCs to save them would be the last thing I'd want to do, since it kinda ruins the consistency of the story (which is really important imho). And o top of that, I had explained to them from the beginning of the campaign that I as a DM, would never help them if they messed up, and they not only were ok with it, but they actually said that this is the way they prefer it.

[Thomo]

Is it just the dragon by itself for the fight?

If so, I wouldn't be too concerned. even though it's a smaller party (only 4), that's still 4 rounds vs 1 round, and especially if they start throwing out debuffs and inhibitors, it could be surprisingly easy.

I DM for larger parties (usually 6, although one game has 8 players) and I'm generally throwing stuff at them that's 5 or more levels higher.

If you are still a tad worried, consider throwing in some terrain features that they might be able to exploit (i.e. columns that can be smashed to bring the roof down etc.)

[Silma]

Is it just the dragon by itself for the fight?

If so, I wouldn't be too concerned. even though it's a smaller party (only 4), that's still 4 rounds vs 1 round, and especially if they start throwing out debuffs and inhibitors, it could be surprisingly easy.

I DM for larger parties (usually 6, although one game has 8 players) and I'm generally throwing stuff at them that's 5 or more levels higher.

If you are still a tad worried, consider throwing in some terrain features that they might be able to exploit (i.e. columns that can be smashed to bring the roof down etc.)


No see, I meant for this encounter to be hard. I'm considering to increase the level of the dragon to a point where is actually IS extremely hard.
What concerns me is if it is ok to put them up against such a hard opponent.

[INDYSTAR188]

I think that you should set up some dynamic terrain features that work in favor of the PCs. This would help even the fight as well as make it really exciting (more than just your standard encounter/daily/at will options). As for my own experience, my party is at level 6 and I'm constantly putting them up against +3/4/5 encounters. I got some really good advice on here about making a +2 encounter w/a bunch of weaker monsters that ended up being more challenging than they would find w/one strong monster to team up on.

[Thomo]

No see, I meant for this encounter to be hard. I'm considering to increase the level of the dragon to a point where is actually IS extremely hard.
What concerns me is if it is ok to put them up against such a hard opponent.

Ah, I see. Sorry, I misread.

Instead of raising the level too much (because it does get to the point where it's just too frustrating to hit the damned thing), why not add extra to the original encounter.

Keep the dragon and maybe add a couple of levels/new abilities, and then add in other features - a few minions coming in waves, terrain features and hazards/traps. Or alternatively, maybe throw them an objective that they have to get in a set amount of time.

If you haven't already, I'd go check out the Angry DM's Boss Fight ideas (http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-1/) - they really are quite good and I use them every now and again to mix things up.

[surfarcher]

If they are used to having options to get around combat, then sure. If they always charge head first into battle that might be a bit iffier, but here's an idea.

If they fight it, and are losing badly and don't look to be running, consider having a couple dragon slayers NPCs show up at the 11th hour to help them out. Either drive the dragon away or kill it, and help the bloodied PCs survive.

Or kill a PC, allowing the rest to run.

[Yakk]

Level +4, or double the XP of a standard encounter, is generally when I start seeing risk of death show up from a fully rested party. (This might be a bit easier at low levels).

However, level+4 individual monsters start showing mechanical problems when facing PCs (they start to over-reward characters who optimize accuracy, or over-punish characters who fail to optimize accuracy more precisely).

So the XP budget for a hard encounter is 1200 XP. A level 6 (3 levels above party) dragon is 1000 XP, leaving 200 XP leftover. 8 level 1 Kobold minions would work to round out the encounter, and can provide for a flanking harassment. (Kobold Tunneler, the upgraded MV Kobold minion).

Have hidden tunnels that the Kobolds come out of on turn 2 of the encounter (the entrance are Tiny, and the rest of the tunnel is small -- so PCs can't go down them). The Kobolds should flank the party after they have engaged the Dragon, with ranged and melee attacks. They should stay spread out -- and if caught in a blast, they have their immediate interrupt shift 3 to spread out.

If you bloody a player, one of the Kobolds should delay their turn until the Dragon's turn.

Focus fire on the Sorcerer or Warlord with Javalins -- whichever has lower HP from the Dragon's attacks, or seems more exposed.

When a player is bloodied, the Dragon should use Luring Gaze to try to move the fighter out of melee range. If that fails, Claw to shift away from the fighter (fighter's shift-triggered attack does not stop movement). Once out of the fighter's movement denial, move to within range of the bloodied player, and action point claw claw (and normal attack claw claw if you didn't need to use it to disengage from the fighter. Have a Kobold in flanking position (see the above "delay their turn") and close to melee range on the victim.

Against a 20 AC target, even with -2 from marking this does an average of 28 damage. That'll drop (and possibly kill) a bloodied target. (This assumes you manage to disengage without wasting melee attacks).

Second, don't use the MM1 young green dragon. use the Monster Vault young green dragon. Much better built.