what are the best druid wildshape forms?

[Quintessence]

non-dinosaur, my DM has decided to be a little girl about fleshrakers and banned all dinosaurs. so what are the best wildshape forms?

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you looked at the Druid Handbook?

What Wild Shape feats (Frozen Wild Shape, Draconic Wild Shape, Exalted Wild Shape, etc.) are available?

What level are you starting at?

Is Planar Shepherd available?

What does your build look like so far?

[Quintessence]

Have you looked at the Druid Handbook?

What Wild Shape feats (Frozen Wild Shape, Draconic Wild Shape, Exalted Wild Shape, etc.) are available?

What level are you starting at?

i looked at the druid handbook.

frozen is allowed, draconic is most likely banned, exalted is allowed

starting level 6

[TuggyNE]

non-dinosaur, my DM has decided to be a little girl about fleshrakers and banned all dinosaurs.

... which, for balance reasons, and in some settings fluff reasons, is an entirely reasonable choice. :smalltongue:

[Quintessence]

... which, for balance reasons, and in some settings fluff reasons, is an entirely reasonable choice. :smalltongue:

all i can say is if we face dinosaurs at any time he is getting a book to the face.

[Gavinfoxx]

Level 6?

Crocodile, Leopard, Desmodu Hunting Bat, Dire Hawk.

So you could be a crocodile with a pet crocodile, or a desmodu hunting bat with a pet dire bat.

Remember, Exalted Wild Shape and Frozen Wild Shape can be taken at level 9.

Is Planar Shephard, for whatever plane of pure nature exists in your setting, to basically get all the Magical Beasts you could possibly think of, available?


Also, remember that knowing about an animal in a basic way is a Knowledge Nature check of 10+HD of animal, and you can Take 10 on that check. So basically you know about all animals you could possibly wild shape into, if you keep your Knowledge Nature up.

Level 9 Wild Shape: Polar Bear, Dire Lion, Rhino, Smilodon. Level 7 Animal Companion: Brown Bear, Giant Crocodile, Dire Eagle, Magebred Ghost Tiger.


Remember to get barding for you and your animal companion, and get a wilding clasp for your gear asap! And also get pearls of speech for you and your animal companion! ("SQUIRREL!")

[Soranar]

big cats get pounce so, unless you have another way to get it, I'd go for those.

At leopard gets pounce , rake and improved grab

once you're allowed larger animals, a tiger or a dire tiger should do the trick

[Quintessence]

Level 6?

Crocodile, Leopard, Desmodu Hunting Bat, Dire Hawk.

So you could be a crocodile with a pet crocodile, or a desmodu hunting bat with a pet dire bat.

Remember, Exalted Wild Shape and Frozen Wild Shape can be taken at level 9.

Is Planar Shephard, for whatever plane of pure nature exists in your setting, to basically get all the Magical Beasts you could possibly think of, available?

planar shephard was instantly banned after i explained how it worked.

the thing is he chose to go with 5d6 rolling stats, so we are all really powerful and my stats are quite high. maybe i would be better off hitting things with Shillelagh for awhile?

[Gavinfoxx]

If he made a high power game, he made a high power game. So be high powered.

Reread my posts, I edited them.

[Quintessence]

If he made a high power game, he made a high power game. So be high powered.

Reread my posts, I edited them.

oh i forgot to mention that he was going to nerf my animal companion so i instead chose shifter as a race and went with beast spirit from the shifter druid sub levels.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah. Well remember. Natural Spell, Pearls of Speech, Barding, Wilding clasps on normal armor, get armor out of the various as strong as iron woods in D&D, if you can't get pearls of speech, get Medallion of Thought Projection (that's in DMG). You can stay in wild shape 24/7 by level 8.

But yea, only wild shape for now?

Level 6:
Crocodile, Leopard, Desmodu Hunting Bat (Monster Manual 2), Dire Hawk (races of the wild)
Level 8: Polar Bear, Dire Lion, Rhino
Level 9: Smilodon (Frostburn)

Decide if you will get Frozen Wild Shape or Exalted Wild Shape at level 9.

If you get Frozen, some forms you can take at level 9 include:
Winter Wolf
Frost Salamander (MM2)
Branta (Frostburn)
Ice Toad (Frostburn)
Urskan (Frostburn -- this one has hands and can speak and wield weapons!)

Exalted is good too, it makes your normal animals Celestial, and gets you some talking forms too. Remember the Enhance Wild Shape spell.

[Quintessence]

Ah. Well remember. Natural Spell, Pearls of Speech, Barding, Wilding clasps on normal armor, get armor out of the various as strong as iron woods in D&D, if you can't get pearls of speech, get Medallion of Thought Projection (that's in DMG). You can stay in wild shape 24/7 by level 8.

But yea, only wild shape for now?

Level 6:
Crocodile, Leopard, Desmodu Hunting Bat (Monster Manual 2), Dire Hawk (races of the wild)
Level 8: Polar Bear, Dire Lion, Rhino
Level 9: Smilodon (Frostburn)

Decide if you will get Frozen Wild Shape or Exalted Wild Shape at level 9.

If you get Frozen, some forms you can take at level 9 include:
Winter Wolf
Frost Salamander (MM2)
Branta (Frostburn)
Ice Toad (Frostburn)
Urskan (Frostburn -- this one has hands and can speak and wield weapons!)

Exalted is good too, it makes your normal animals Celestial, and gets you some talking forms too. Remember the Enhance Wild Shape spell.

which is better, frozen or exalted?

also thank you for all the help so far :)

[Gavinfoxx]

Which is better?

Well. That's a tough one. You should look at the stats of your favorite forms and what each gets you and compare them yourself. ;)

Both of them get you talking forms, if you worry about that.

[Deophaun]

which is better, frozen or exalted?
Aberration :)

[Airanath]

Aberrant Wild Shape if you got feats to spare for more madness. (Aberrant Blood as a feat tax to be able to get it)

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't really like Aberration Wild Shape... it always feels wrong to me, I dunno. You need Aberration Blood to do it, yech...

[Rubik]

I don't really like Aberration Wild Shape... it always feels wrong to me, I dunno....I think that's the point, actually.

[Tvtyrant]

I like dragon wildshape as a feat. Shadow dragons remain medium sized into adulthood, so you get a kickass breath weapon. (for some reason I always want to spell breath breathe).

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, yes.

Shadow Dragons, Song Dragons, and Steel Dragons are quite awesome. But it is a higher level feat that the OP said the DM would likely ban.

[Uncertainty]

which is better, frozen or exalted?

also thank you for all the help so far :)

I may be wrong, but doesn't Frozen eventually let you wildshape into a Cryohydra?

[Gavinfoxx]

I may be wrong, but doesn't Frozen eventually let you wildshape into a Cryohydra?

Yea, it takes until you get Huge Wildshape though.

The OP implied the game wouldn't last that long.

[Steward]

...I think that's the point, actually.

Exactly. Aberrant Wild Shape is a sin and a shame, and I don't want to ever see anyone recommending it here again.

[Invader]

What do you want to do while wildshaped?

Exalted wildshape is over rated imo. Sure you get blink dog but by the time you can take it there are much better things to take unless you plan on using it play defensive and dim dooring you allies around so they dont get hit.

Bears are going to be your primary melee form for a couple of levels.

Any flight form (Eagle is best) and just rain down spells from above which is almost an "I WIN" button.

I'm of the school of thought that you get so many good forms from core class that instead of using feats to get other ones use your feats to make the ones you have even better.

Improved natural attack
multi attack
Imp Grapple etc.

[Gavinfoxx]

If it helps, I statted out a Druid to take out mundane armies by being a high altitude stealth bomber!

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54924

[eggynack]

In my game, I mostly fly around in desmodu hunting bat form. They have excellent defense and get a high initiative due to the dexterity. Also, getting 120ft blindsight from enhance wildshape is crazy good at 7th level.

[tyckspoon]

What do you want to do while wildshaped?

Exalted wildshape is over rated imo. Sure you get blink dog but by the time you can take it there are much better things to take unless you plan on using it play defensive and dim dooring you allies around so they dont get hit.

It also lets you add the Celestial template to any of the normal Animal forms you can already take, which is..



I'm of the school of thought that you get so many good forms from core class that instead of using feats to get other ones use your feats to make the ones you have even better.


A pretty decent upgrade as far as this is concerned- it adds Smite, Spell Resistance, Energy Resistances, Damage Reduction, and Darkvision to everything. It also gives you 'extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the creature'. Note, *abilities*, not *attacks* - Celestial Wildshape will give you the special qualities like sense modes that normal Wildshape does not. It's a pretty dang good feat, even if you never use it to turn into any of the specific Magical Beasts it also allows.

[Invader]

If it helps, I statted out a Druid to take out mundane armies by being a high altitude stealth bomber!

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54924

You need some wilding clasps or all you equipment minus the stone is basically worthless.

[Gavinfoxx]

You need some wilding clasps or all you equipment minus the stone is basically worthless.

No, she takes the equipment off, shapes, and then has a helper to help put the equipment on her. The squire/assistant is mentioned in the equipment, read more closely!

[Invader]

It also lets you add the Celestial template to any of the normal Animal forms you can already take, which is..




A pretty decent upgrade as far as this is concerned- it adds Smite, Spell Resistance, Energy Resistances, Damage Reduction, and Darkvision to everything. It also gives you 'extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the creature'. Note, *abilities*, not *attacks* - Celestial Wildshape will give you the special qualities like sense modes that normal Wildshape does not. It's a pretty dang good feat, even if you never use it to turn into any of the specific Magical Beasts it also allows.

Unless I'm mistaken it allows you to apply the celestial template to animals which generally have pretty sub par SU SA abilities and everything else is surpassed by druid spells.

It's not a bad feat but its still a case of doing many things or doing fewer things better.

[Invader]

No, she takes the equipment off, shapes, and then has a helper to help put the equipment on her. The squire/assistant is mentioned in the equipment, read more closely!

That sir is cheese lol

[Gavinfoxx]

That sir is cheese lol

Uh.... No?

Wild shaping and then putting barding or amulets or whatnot on is core, and isn't cheesy at all...? It's just something that can't be done in combat...? Which is why you wild shape well before combat happens...

[lianightdemon]

Squire: yeah my job is to dress this strange tree hugger who spends all day as an animal with clothing. Then ventures into dangerous situations where I might get killed.

[Gavinfoxx]

Squire: yeah my job is to dress this strange tree hugger who spends all day as an animal with clothing. Then ventures into dangerous situations where I might get killed.

Yes? That is the job of Squires -- they are in training to a militarily powerful person (like a Knight was historically), and their job is to be the camp assistant to said person, caring for their animals and gear and such, in exchange for training...

So this Squire is someone the Druid is training to be a Druid someday...

[eggynack]

I've always been confused by the "get someone to put stuff on for you" thing. Doesn't the line "Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet," specifically cause that strategy not to work? I've always assumed that if you got friends to put stuff onto you while in bear form, that stuff would magically pop off of you afterwards leaving you back at square one.

[Gavinfoxx]

"Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet. "


This means that:

1.) when changing from human to animal, gear melds
2.) When changing from animal to human, gear un-melds and reappears
3.) When changing from animal to human, gear put on after the druid has changed (like barding) comes off.

[Deophaun]

Exactly. Aberrant Wild Shape is a sin and a shame, and I don't want to ever see anyone recommending it here again.
Why is it that the things that are the most fun always turn out to be sins? Oh well, I damned anyway, might as well take a few more souls with me.

[Invader]

"Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet. "


This means that:

1.) when changing from human to animal, gear melds
2.) When changing from animal to human, gear un-melds and reappears
3.) When changing from animal to human, gear put on after the druid has changed (like barding) comes off.

I thought for the "have someone put the equipment on for you after you shapechange" rule the animal as to have the anatomy that would fit the item?

[Gavinfoxx]

A Bat has a neck. So does a bear. They also have waists. And tongues.

[Invader]

A Bat has a neck. So does a bear. They also have waists. And tongues.

So an amulet that fits around a humans neck will stay on a bats neck and a human wears a belt big enough to go around a bears waist. Itens don't change size to fit the animal. I'm sorry but they have specific items that work in wildshape or change with wildshape for a reason.

[Gavinfoxx]

D&D does talk about items fitting creatures with odd forms. Look at Draconomicon for precedent. And magic items (mostly Wondrous Items do this) do change shape or size a bit to fit the user in general...

[Invader]

D&D does talk about items fitting creatures with odd forms. Look at Draconomicon for precedent. And magic items (mostly Wondrous Items do this) do change shape or size a bit to fit the user in general...

Yes technically you can say a bat can wear a brooch but you'd be pinning it to its skin and lions can wear boots because they have feet but like I said before, it's cheese.

[Deophaun]

So an amulet that fits around a humans neck will stay on a bats neck and a human wears a belt big enough to go around a bears waist. Itens don't change size to fit the animal. I'm sorry but they have specific items that work in wildshape or change with wildshape for a reason.
DMG pg 213. Items are designed to be adjustable to a wide range of sizes, encompassing both halflings and the tallest humans.

However, putting a belt on a bat is going to be problematic, as it will get in the way of its wings.

[Gavinfoxx]

You aren't pinning it to their skin, you are placing a large chain that changes size around its neck! Or you are tying a rope that changes size (seriously, monk's belt is a rope!) around its waist!

As far as the bat thing, it just has to take up the magical waist slot. I'm sure there's some use rope trick that won't get away with the wings that has it cross like a bandoleer or something.

[Invader]

DMG pg 213. Items are designed to be adjustable to a wide range of sizes, encompassing both halflings and the tallest humans.

However, putting a belt on a bat is going to be problematic, as it will get in the way of its wings.

Halfling or human, not bear, lion, octopus, or weasel.

There's a difference between a humanoid waste and an animals midsection this is the same for most other items as well.

[Invader]

You aren't pinning it to their skin, you are placing a large chain that changes size around its neck! Or you are tying a rope that changes size (seriously, monk's belt is a rope!) around its waist!

As far as the bat thing, it just has to take up the magical waist slot. I'm sure there's some use rope trick that won't get away with the wings that has it cross like a bandoleer or something.

A brooch is a pin

[Gavinfoxx]

And a Periapt or Amulet are things on chains.

The neck slot item I was combining was:

Periapt of Wisdom 4000 + amulet of health 4000 + Brooch of Stability 1500 + Amulet of Tears 2300

3/4 things are an amulet on a chain, so the default form for that is a charm on a chain!

[eggynack]

"Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet. "


This means that:

1.) when changing from human to animal, gear melds
2.) When changing from animal to human, gear un-melds and reappears
3.) When changing from animal to human, gear put on after the druid has changed (like barding) comes off.
That makes alot more sense of the common reading I've seen. I'd always assumed that the last line was a separate aspect of wildshape, so that any new items you put on after going into wildshape wouldn't work. I can see how the system where party members put items on you after wildshaping could work now. I'm probably just going to stick to wilding clasps though. They seem alot less cheesy, particularly when we're talking about a being as powerful as the druid.

[Invader]

And a Periapt or Amulet are things on chains.

The neck slot item I was combining was:

Periapt of Wisdom 4000 + amulet of health 4000 + Brooch of Stability 1500 + Amulet of Tears 2300

3/4 things are an amulet on a chain, so the default form for that is a charm on a chain!

Also this breaks the item slot rule to begin with. You're effectively wearing 3 amulets.

[Airanath]

Also this breaks the item slot rule to begin with. You're effectively wearing 3 amulets.

Don't look at the MIC then, not only they say its possible, they also price it reasonably cheaply, as seem in the example. Fair? maybe not, discuss with you DM. There are bardings for animals, and enchantments to change the shape of items. what keeps then from turning items thus enchanted from changing into their animal counterparts. Now your bat can wear a brooch too, its a nice properly sized earring.

[Gwendol]

You can add effects to a magic item, such as an amulet, or boots to combine them (rules are described in the Magic Item Compendium). Changing the slot of the item however incurs an additional cost IIRC.

As has been discussed on this forum before, it is advised to use wildshape to stay out of harms way at lower levels due to the low AC of the (melee) animal forms. Once you got your barding and whatnot in place though... Grroarrr! :-)

[DeusMortuusEst]

Halfling or human, not bear, lion, octopus, or weasel.

There's a difference between a humanoid waste and an animals midsection this is the same for most other items as well.

Well, it's entirely possible to give your animal companions magic items, so why shouldn't you be able to wear them yourself when in animal form?

[Taelas]

Also this breaks the item slot rule to begin with. You're effectively wearing 3 amulets.

As has already been mentioned, it doesn't. It is relatively inexpensive to add additional magical effects to an item that the effect is attuned to, such as combining two different amulets.

For example, adding the effects of a periapt of wisdom to any existing magic item that fits the appropriate slot (head/throat, see MIC) is precisely the same cost as buying a periapt of wisdom in the first place.

It is perfectly legal to unequip your items, use wild shape, then equip the items again, as long as the items can be worn by your new form. (So you can't wear an armor you wear in humanoid form while you are a bear.) There are no rules for items like belts, necklaces or rings with regards to size like there is for armor, though, so that is entirely up to your DM.

[Airanath]

as long as the items can be worn by your new form. (So you can't wear an armor you wear in humanoid form while you are a bear.

Wild armor. You keep armor and enhace bonus, takes no ACP or Max Dex(by RAW). Might miss that SR or energy resist, but can cast those. + 3 enhacement cost is abit steep tho.
Edit: There is also beastskin on complete adventurer, + 2 bonus, spend an extra wild shape us and the armor morphs with you, penalties apply but you get to keep nom enhacement bonus.

[Taelas]

Yes, there are magical enchantments which can change your armor with you, but by default, you can't wear it. Besides, both of those enchantments require you to keep your armor on.

[Airanath]

Yes, there are magical enchantments which can change your armor with you, but by default, you can't wear it. Besides, both of those enchantments require you to keep your armor on.

Wild Enhacement
Wild:

The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.
This one is pretty straigh forward, indeed it doen't say you get to be able to use the armor, but it also doesn't say it stops the merging, so the bolded part is what matters. Also due to not stopping the merging you don't take the armor penalties, all it does specifically keep the armor bonus.
As for Beasthide, the property mentions that when activating it your retain your ability to.wear that kind of armor, no loose ends to debate.

[Taelas]

... I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be disagreeing with, here. Yeah, wild armor merges with you, but if you don't have it on while you use wild shape, it can't do it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also this breaks the item slot rule to begin with. You're effectively wearing 3 amulets.

Read the DMG, and pay attention to the Errata for the DMG, and the MIC then. You can combine like-slotted magical items. The cost is 1.5x all but the most expensive enchantment on the magic item, though there are some 'easy adds', listed in the magic item compendium.

[Venger]

Exactly. Aberrant Wild Shape is a sin and a shame, and I don't want to ever see anyone recommending it here again.

what's the big deal? do you think it's not powerful enough? too powerful? that paying 2 feats is too expensive?

[Yoven]

what's the big deal? do you think it's not powerful enough? too powerful? that paying 2 feats is too expensive?

In my humble opinion its very well overpowered. (Shaping into a Beholder or something alike is baaad stuff)
Also, it would probably be ok if you'd take abberant blood on lvl 1 and create a reasonable back-story of your druid-guy and his friggin abberant parents.. but for the most druids beeing guys of Nature and Animals it just feels wrong as hell shapeshifting into an Abberation.

Abberarnt Wildshape may be picked in the maximum optimisation games, but in every other game it just has a foul taste, and if you have any interest in roleplaying in between your fights you might notice that beeing an abberant Wildshaper is just not the way a Druid was meant to bee...at least in the most games.

[Eldest]

In my humble opinion its very well overpowered. (Shaping into a Beholder or something alike is baaad stuff)
Also, it would probably be ok if you'd take abberant blood on lvl 1 and create a reasonable back-story of your druid-guy and his friggin abberant parents.. but for the most druids beeing guys of Nature and Animals it just feels wrong as hell shapeshifting into an Abberation.

Abberarnt Wildshape may be picked in the maximum optimisation games, but in every other game it just has a foul taste, and if you have any interest in roleplaying in between your fights you might notice that beeing an abberant Wildshaper is just not the way a Druid was meant to bee...at least in the most games.

So you're saying that it doesn't fit with your idea of the fluff of a Druid.
Ok.
Doesn't mean it doesn't fit with somebody else's.

[tyckspoon]

In my humble opinion its very well overpowered. (Shaping into a Beholder or something alike is...


Mostly harmless, balance-wise. Aberration Wild Shape works like normal Wild Shape, so the only abilities you get from the form you take are (Ex) Special Attacks. Wildshaping into a Beholder doesn't get you the Eye Rays, the Antimagic Eye, or even the All-Around Vision. Most Aberrations are not very impressive, physically; they're not really a problem unless you combine it with some way to acquire (Su) abilities from your wildshapes, which is largely broken regardless of the types of creatures you can shape into (aside from basic Animals, which definitionally do not have (Su) abilities. They'd be Magical Beasts if they did.)

[Airanath]

what's the big deal? do you think it's not powerful enough? too powerful? that paying 2 feats is too expensive?

Three feats, you'll want to get Assume Supernatural Ability (Eye Rays) too.

Cloaker form: You can Moan for 4 different save or suck effects a day, saves are charisma based, so get a cloak of charisma that works on your new form to boost DCs. (Don't even need Assume Supernatural Ability).

Delver form: You get stone shape and the ability to obliterate armor and weapons (and metal and earth). Also doesn't need to assume supernatural ability.

Ettercap: You get to launch Webs and Poison whoever you bite.

Dretchan form: Blind sense up to 100 feet, and protection from sonic. If you assume supernatural ability you also get their sonic blasts for aoe sonic attacks.

Beholder: We are playing dirty now, assume supernatural ability, you can get ALL their eye stalks into the game. Tought the wizard was bad? What about a druid who can disintegrate at will all day, charm at will all day, Slow at will all day, make people sleep at will all day, and teleckinesis at will all day? Also, you don't get the Antimagic Cone, which means if you get a way to keep casting your druid spells you can also do that. 10 eye rays + druid spells aren't enough for your? What about 10 lvls in Beholder Mage? Ultra fast forward wizard casting with sorcerer spontaneous cast. Incoming DMG, duck!

[greenpotato]

No ones mentioned giant Octopus yet?

-9 natural attacks
-20ft reach
-Improved Grapple
-Constrict

I love it.

[Venger]

In my humble opinion its very well overpowered. (Shaping into a Beholder or something alike is baaad stuff)
Also, it would probably be ok if you'd take abberant blood on lvl 1 and create a reasonable back-story of your druid-guy and his friggin abberant parents.. but for the most druids beeing guys of Nature and Animals it just feels wrong as hell shapeshifting into an Abberation.

Abberarnt Wildshape may be picked in the maximum optimisation games, but in every other game it just has a foul taste, and if you have any interest in roleplaying in between your fights you might notice that beeing an abberant Wildshaper is just not the way a Druid was meant to bee...at least in the most games.
thank you for your detailed answer, I appreciate it.

well, as mentioned, without any of its su abilities, all beholder really offers is decent natural armor, which is hardly game breaking when you'd unlock him at lvl 11

what do you mean by nature? aberrations live in the same climes and fulfill the same niches as other creatures (animals, plants, etc) and are frequently less ridiculous as other types (magical beasts spring to mind: tell me an owlbear is "natural") they exist independently of PC/NPC intervention (unlike, for example, skeletons/zombies, which are only possible by the animate dead/the dead walk effects) and eat, sleep, move, breathe, and grow.

had you had a bad experience with an overpowered aberrant wild shaper? I'd be curious to hear what they did, as I've never heard of it being used to that effect. did he use a 2 lvl chameleon dip to switch on assume supernatural ability and morph into a choker?

[Deophaun]

Yeah, Assume Supernatural Ability is just broken all on its own. If you have to use ASA to make Aberration Wild Shape broken, then AWS is fine.

AWS does have real good synergy with Enhance Wild Shape, however. Most animals don't have good EX abilities to poach, same with elemental forms. Aberrations, however, have EX abilities coming out their several dozen ears.

As for it not reflecting how a druid is "supposed" to be: a druid is supposed to be however the player wants it to be.

[Voyager_I]

Read the DMG, and pay attention to the Errata for the DMG, and the MIC then. You can combine like-slotted magical items. The cost is 1.5x all but the most expensive enchantment on the magic item, though there are some 'easy adds', listed in the magic item compendium.

To add my two cents to this;

It's entirely legal for a Druid to equip items while win wild shape, so long as they selected items that their current form would be able to equip. Magic Items are said to resize to fit their wearer (so, for example, a halfling could take a magic ring form a human and wear it without issue).

This means that a druid would be perfectly capable of assuming the form of a bear, then having an ally (a hireling is pretty reasonable, but if for some reason that bothers you then there are probably party members) help them with their equipment.


The limiting factor is that it would have to be barding made exclusively for a given form. Bear Armor only helps them if they're shifting into a bear, and even fairly universal magic items will fall off or meld and become nonfunctional if they change.


As far as power goes, it's got nothing on Wilding Clasps.

[Togo]

Sure, the practical problem is what a bear can wear. I wouldn't let a bear wear a belt, or any rings, and certainly not boots or armour not made for bears. Other DMs let wildshape druids use almost anything.

It's worth pointing out, though, that you need to be on the lookout for items you can actually use. A lot of the standard adventuring progression - magic armour, magic weapon, ring of protection, etc. isn't going to work so well. As a result druids can end up with more utility items, or just not finding many items they can use.

Also, dire weasel is woth looking at as a form. As is eagle and owl for scouting. I'd also recommend Dire Ape. With a decent disguise and listen skills you can also pose as a horse, sneak into enemy encampments, and maybe pick up some gossip.

Staying in wild shape all day sounds like a good idea, but watch out for social situations, doorknobs, narrow staircases, small boats, and other animal-unfriendly events.

[Rubik]

Sure, the practical problem is what a bear can wear. I wouldn't let a bear wear a belt, or any rings, and certainly not boots or armour not made for bears. Other DMs let wildshape druids use almost anything.
I'm pretty sure a bear has a torso that a belt will fit around, and toes on its front paws that rings would fit on. And anklets are just as viable in the boots slot as boots are, which you can then add boot enhancements onto. In fact, bears have every body part that humans do, and then some. Most mammals do. Even thumbs, though they aren't opposable.

[Yoven]

Aberration Wild Shape works like normal Wild Shape, so the only abilities you get from the form you take are (Ex) Special Attacks. Wildshaping into a Beholder doesn't get you the Eye Rays,

Checked My Monster Manual... Eye Rays ARE Supernatural Attacks... so you get them as soon as you can shape into a beholder....

thats what i meant by overpowered.. Beeing a beholder gives you unlimited access to all his rays... an in addition you can still cast your own spells in a wild-shape form that is likely to be stronger than your natural body

[DeusMortuusEst]

Checked My Monster Manual... Eye Rays ARE Supernatural Attacks... so you get them as soon as you can shape into a beholder....

thats what i meant by overpowered.. Beeing a beholder gives you unlimited access to all his rays... an in addition you can still cast your own spells in a wild-shape form that is likely to be stronger than your natural body

Eh, what? Wild shape works as alternate form, which specifically says that you do not gain the SLA:s and SU:s of the new form.


The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.

[Yoven]

thats why i said supernatural ATTACKS... you get those... supernatural attacks are for example trip, pounce etc.... and the eye rays are listed as Supernatural Attack...

From Alternate Form:

The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.

[Gwendol]

No, you do not gain any (Su) attacks of the new form. Check Alternate Form in the D&D glossary on the Wizards homepage.

[Taelas]

thats why i said supernatural ATTACKS... you get those... supernatural attacks are for example trip, pounce etc.... and the eye rays are listed as Supernatural Attack...

From Alternate Form:

Let me clarify what is meant by "supernatural attack" -- there are special attacks, which can be Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like. A "supernatural attack" is a special attack that is supernatural in origin--it has the (Su) descriptor.

Reread your quote. It refers to "extraordinary special attacks" -- Eye Rays is a supernatural special attack.

In other words, you get Trip or Pounce, because they are (Ex). You do not get Eye Rays, because they are (Su).

[Yoven]

you may be right here... but just checked ma MM again... there's nothing written behind the rays... nothing in brackets at all... so how am i going to know which special attacks i get and which i dont get?

[DeusMortuusEst]

you may be right here... but just checked ma MM again... there's nothing written behind the rays... nothing in brackets at all... so how am i going to know which special attacks i get and which i dont get?

I don't have the MM here, so I can't be sure, but I believe that the ray descriptions say that they work like the spells they mimic. Any time you see something like that you can be pretty sure that it's a (SU) ability or SLA, and a wild shaped druid won't have access to it. Unless it's labeled with SU, they usually are, otherwise check the errata.

[Taelas]

Read the description of the ability, not the stat block. It usually located in the Combat section of each entry. For instance, on page 26, the beholder is listed with its stat block. After the brief description of the creature, there is a "Combat" section.

The beholder is somewhat special, in that there is more than one variety (the other one is the gauth). There is an additional Combat section on page 25 which describes qualities common to both types--including flight and all-around vision, as well as eye rays. All three have descriptors--Eye Rays is (Su), Flight is (Ex), as is All-Around Vision. The ones that aren't under the common header is under the specific version.

If there isn't a description of the ability under the monster's entry, it is likely that you can find it in the glossary.

[Venger]

thats why i said supernatural ATTACKS... you get those... supernatural attacks are for example trip, pounce etc.... and the eye rays are listed as Supernatural Attack...

From Alternate Form:

you get the extraordinary special attacks of what you wild shape into. trip and pounce are extraordinary.



you may be right here... but just checked ma MM again... there's nothing written behind the rays... nothing in brackets at all... so how am i going to know which special attacks i get and which i dont get?

yes there is. both in the entry on beholders and gauth and on each individual entry, after eye rays, "(Su)" is printed, an abbreviation for supernatural.

the way you know what special attacks you get is by looking at the monster's stat block and seeing what is there under "special attacks" from there, check the monster's entry and see which one has "(Ex)" (short for extraordinary) printed after it. those are the ones you get by default when using wild shape.

assume supernatural ability will give you one Su ability from one wild shape. whether or not that's worth the feat is purely a matter of taste.

the ex special qualities (darkvision, regeneration, etc. mostly defensive/passive stuff) can be obtained through either master of many forms 7 or the 4th lvl druid spell "enhance wild shape"

in any case, you do not gain the supernatural special qualities or special attacks of a form with wild shape without taking additional measures

[Tvtyrant]

Assume Supernatural Ability is the easiest way, followed by simply working up to level 17 and Shapechange (the game breaker!).

[Venger]

Assume Supernatural Ability is the easiest way, followed by simply working up to level 17 and Shapechange (the game breaker!).

yes, definitely true. however, druids can't cast shapechange.

[Tvtyrant]

yes, definitely true. however, druids can't cast shapechange.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm

Druids, Clerics with the Animal Domain, and Wiz/Sorc. Its almost a capstone.

[Venger]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm

Druids, Clerics with the Animal Domain, and Wiz/Sorc. Its almost a capstone.

huh. why on earth did I think that? my mistake.

[Tvtyrant]

huh. why on earth did I think that? my mistake.

No problem! I think its funny how abusive using it with a DMM Persist Cleric can get.