Advice on level 3 Bard please

[danzibr]

Here is my current Bard: Lebrow "The Great" Sky (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=387104).

He's basically complete, but I wanted advice on his feats. In particular, I'm playing a Silverbrow human, with the feats Dragonfire Inspiration, Jack of All Trades and Melodic Casting. We're allowed to take up to two feats, so how beneficial would it be to get Lingering Song? What else would work?

As far as party role, I'm going pure buffer.

Also, should I take a trait? Thanks.

[Greyfeld85]

Personally, I'd just get a Harmonizing weapon instead of burning a feat slot on Lingering Song.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Always get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) if you can, unless you suspect that your DM will be a big meanie and take it away at every opportunity.

Versatile Performer (CV) could be useful. Note that flaws must be taken "when creating a character," so if you create the character at 3rd level your flaws can fall on any of your levels from 1st-3rd. That means you can use a flaw to gain a feat that can't be taken at 1st level, as long as that feat can be gained at or before the party's starting level.

You could use Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) and get Ashbound (ECS), and possibly even Greenbound Summoning (LEoF), considering your summoned creatures will benefit from Inspire Courage.

[Splendor]

Song of the Heart (+1 to Inspire Courage)
Nymph’s Kiss (+2 Chr skills, +1 save vs magic, +1 skill point/lv)
Extra Music (+4 bardic music uses)

I would change out some spells and take:
1st: Loresong (1 min cast, 1rd/lv, allows you to use any skill, even untrained with a +4 bonus +1/2 lvs) - Nice for open lock or Knowledge checks you don't have. In Dragon Magazine 335, Pg 76
1st: Cure light wounds (Doesn't hurt to have a back up healer)

[Greyfeld85]

Song of the Heart (+1 to Inspire Courage)
Nymph’s Kiss (+2 Chr skills, +1 save vs magic, +1 skill point/lv)
Extra Music (+4 bardic music uses)

I would change out some spells and take:
1st: Loresong (1 min cast, 1rd/lv, allows you to use any skill, even untrained with a +4 bonus +1/2 lvs) - Nice for open lock or Knowledge checks you don't have. In Dragon Magazine 335, Pg 76
1st: Cure light wounds (Doesn't hurt to have a back up healer)

Taking CLW in one of your limited spell slots is worthless. He's better off just getting a wand of it, since he doesn't need a UMD check to use it.

[Gwendol]

I'd take Able learner over Jack of All Trades anyday. Half a virtual rank in a skill doesn't qualify it to interact with bardic knack anyway.

Improv - while being a solid choice, will not help you much at lower levels. Consider changing to something else like expeditious retreat (to stay out of harm's way).

[danzibr]

I'd take Able learner over Jack of All Trades anyday. Half a virtual rank in a skill doesn't qualify it to interact with bardic knack anyway.

Improv - while being a solid choice, will not help you much at lower levels. Consider changing to something else like expeditious retreat (to stay out of harm's way).
Bunch of random information to come to a conclusion:

When you level up, you gain a form of currency called "skill points." These skilled points can be used to purchase ranks in skills. If a given skill is on the class skill list of the class you're gaining the level in (or stuff involving Able Learner, et cetera), one skill point purchases one rank in the skill. If a given skill is not on the class skill list (again barring exceptions) one skill point purchases one half rank in the skill.

Now suppose a Bard with Bardic Knack and Jack of all Trades attempts a UMD check even though he foolishly bought no ranks in UMD.

First we read the text in Jack of all Trades: "You can use any skill as if you had 1/2 rank in that skill. This benefit allows you to attempt checks with skills that normally don’t allow untrained skill checks (such as Decipher Script and Knowledge)."

Next we read the text in Bardic Knack: "When making any skill check, you can use 1/2 your bard level (rounded up) in place of the number of ranks you have in the skill (even if that number is 0). [...] If the skill doesn't allow untrained checks, you must have at least 1 actual rank to attempt the check."

But wait, it looks like there's a discrepancy. Jack of all Trades suggests having half a rank in an untrained skill allows you to attempt (although with no bonus from the half rank). Bardic Knack straight up says you have to have a full rank in an untrained skill to attempt it.

Check skill info. Not conclusive (at least to me. Doesn't specify 1/2 or 1 rank from my reading).

Check errata. Nothing.

Check Rules Compendium. Nothing. As far as I can tell.

I had a bunch of crap typed up, but ultimately it seems to me that Bardic Knack has a typo. The last line should be, "you must have at least 1/2 actual rank to attempt the check." And what does Jack of all Trades do? You are treated as if you have 1/2 rank in all skills when it comes to making skill checks. So yes, you don't have an actual 1/2 rank (or "virtual rank" as Gwendol said), but you're treated as if you have 1/2 ranks all over the place.

Ultimately, the only reason I see this combo not working is the ambiguity of needing 1/2 rank or 1 rank. Even so, if you need a full rank, Jack of all Trades is absolutely worthless. If you need only a half rank, Bardic Knack has a typo. To me, saying this combo doesn't work would be like not qualifying for stuff you need to be large for if you only have Powerful Build. Yeah, you're not actually large, but you're treated as large.

[Gwendol]

You don't qualify for anything requiring to be Large through powerful build.

Jack of all trades is not a bad feat at all, it just isn't that good for a Bardic Knack bard. In that case Able learner is better because you get more mileage out of your skillpoints.

[danzibr]

You don't qualify for anything requiring to be Large through powerful build.

Jack of all trades is not a bad feat at all, it just isn't that good for a Bardic Knack bard. In that case Able learner is better because you get more mileage out of your skillpoints.
From Races of Stone, under the feat Fling Ally: "Prerequisites: Str 19, Rock Hurling or racial ability to throw rocks, size Large or larger (goliaths qualify by virtue of their powerful build racial trait)."

[Gwendol]

That's a specific rule for that feat. Knockback is another example.

It's still not a general rule that powerful build makes you qualify as large in general.

[danzibr]

That's a specific rule for that feat. Knockback is another example.

It's still not a general rule that powerful build makes you qualify as large in general.
The wording doesn't seem to me that it's feat-specific. Can you quote something, like a feat or PrC or the like, that demonstrates powerful build not qualifying for something which has a prerequisite of large?

[Gwendol]

Here's the definition of Powerful Build:

•Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

If something (PrC, Class, feat, etc) requires Large size, powerful build normally does not apply, since the creature is still Medium.

[danzibr]

Here's the definition of Powerful Build:


If something (PrC, Class, feat, etc) requires Large size, powerful build normally does not apply, since the creature is still Medium.
Hmm I see, thanks. I think that the "goliaths qualify by virtue of their powerful build racial trait" was throwing me off due to the fact that it's in parentheses. Kind of like, "recall that this happens." Thanks.

Anyways, back to my original question, thanks for the feedback all. I'll probably ditch the Jack of all Trades and pick up Lingering Song. I intend to go Bard 20 so Able Learner won't do much good. Furthermore, I'll be picking up Song of the Heart by trading in a song at 6th level. Also, I plan on using wands for the cure spells.

Item Familiar is also a problem because I won't have anything worth 2k. Similar money constraints for Harmonizing Weapon. I probably will pick up something other than Improvisation though.

[Gwendol]

Good point about not taking Able learner if you plan on going straight. I suggest learning the Collector of Stories skill trick sooner rather than later.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't think it's relevant at all what the internet thinks about Jack of All Trades' interaction with Bardic Knack, it only matters what his DM thinks. I think the must-have-1-rank is in reference to whether or not you can use Bardic Knack for trained-only skills, because that's the context of that sentence. As long as his DM rules that the combo works RAI, he's fine.

A Goliath can't take War Hulk or Hulking Hurler by virtue of Powerful Build, because they don't make a built-in allowance for that. Powerful Build is not Large Size for purposes of qualifying for stuff, it's the other way around: specific abilities that require large size make an allowance for creatures with powerful build, but not all of them.

It doesn't matter though, as long as his DM makes a favorable ruling on it, it's completely valid to use Jack of All Trades with Bardic Knack. Arguing with the internet about it (or being the internet and arguing with him about it) won't change anything. With that in mind, be sure to check with your DM first before using that combo, don't just tell him it works and let him find out later that it's questionable.

I'll agree that Nymph's Kiss would be an excellent choice. Taking it on character creation would also establish an exalted status ahead of time, making it easier to meet the RP implications of taking Words of Creation later.

Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) could be useful, as it would benefit from your Inspire Courage bonuses. Pick up an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW) and you'll have another useful pet that benefits from Inspire Courage. Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (CW, DMG) can get you yet another pet that can benefit from Inspire Courage.

[Fyermind]

Draconic aura from dragon magic is a nice passive buff that scales with level.

[Gwendol]

While you are mostly right, the question is posed on the internet, and so it replies. What he does with the advice is none of my business.

[Spuddles]

Currently playing a dragonfire/ IC bard. Lingering song is awesome if you want to have both effects going for a goodly duration. Extra song is kind of a waste, if you're going to gain levels.

[nedz]

Inspirational Boost[SpC] is a good first level spell. +1 Inspire Heroics for a swift action. You might want to take something like Expeditious Retreat first though. Silent Image is probably the best offensive/utility spell you have available, closely followed by Grease.

I agree that Extra Song is a waste.

[danzibr]

I don't think it's relevant at all what the internet thinks about Jack of All Trades' interaction with Bardic Knack, it only matters what his DM thinks. I think the must-have-1-rank is in reference to whether or not you can use Bardic Knack for trained-only skills, because that's the context of that sentence. As long as his DM rules that the combo works RAI, he's fine.

A Goliath can't take War Hulk or Hulking Hurler by virtue of Powerful Build, because they don't make a built-in allowance for that. Powerful Build is not Large Size for purposes of qualifying for stuff, it's the other way around: specific abilities that require large size make an allowance for creatures with powerful build, but not all of them.

It doesn't matter though, as long as his DM makes a favorable ruling on it, it's completely valid to use Jack of All Trades with Bardic Knack. Arguing with the internet about it (or being the internet and arguing with him about it) won't change anything. With that in mind, be sure to check with your DM first before using that combo, don't just tell him it works and let him find out later that it's questionable.

I'll agree that Nymph's Kiss would be an excellent choice. Taking it on character creation would also establish an exalted status ahead of time, making it easier to meet the RP implications of taking Words of Creation later.

Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) could be useful, as it would benefit from your Inspire Courage bonuses. Pick up an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW) and you'll have another useful pet that benefits from Inspire Courage. Obtain Familiar (CA) and Improved Familiar (CW, DMG) can get you yet another pet that can benefit from Inspire Courage.
Argue has such a negative feeling to it. I like to think Gwendol and I were having an e-conversation.

I probably won't pick up a Wild Cohort or familiar (despite Bard familiars being cool... and I recently learned you can Permanency some awesome buffs on them) due to the number of players. Namely, I want as little spotlight as possible so there's enough to go around.

As for Hound of Doom... this spell is awesome! I probably won't pick it up again due to wanting to take as few actions as possible (I'm probably one of two optimizers in the party and don't want to come off as such). Plus I won't be able to afford it for a while.

On second thought... maybe I will pick up a familiar and the ability to make it baddonkey. Any thoughts on a good choice for an IC Bard? I'm rather fond of Lantern Archon, but dunno if that goes well with a buffing Bard.

All things considered, I have one level 1 feat I'm freeing up (Jack of all Trades), probably going to take Lingering Song. I also haven't used any flaws, so maybe pick up a familiar (since flaws can do that). Hmm.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You could just get a Harmonizing (MIC) weapon instead of Lingering Song. You can Inspirational Boost + Inspire Courage (+X attack/damage) the first round, then the second round your Harmonizing weapon takes over that for 10 rounds (then it sticks around for 5 more rounds after) while you Inspirational Boost + Inspire Courage + Badge of Valor (DFI), which you continue for the remainder of the encounter.

With Lingering Song, especially in the lower levels, you could do the following: Start Inspiring (+X attack/damage) with Inspirational Boost and the Badge of Valor before combat, and keep it going until the first encounter. On the first round, you Inspirational Boost + Inspire Courage (DFI) + Badge of Valor, and the +X attack/damage lasts another 10 round. You keep that DFI going until the next encounter, the first round of which you Inspirational Boost + Inspire Courage (+X) + Badge of Valor, and your previous DFI lasts another 10 rounds. Repeat as necessary to only use one Inspire Courage per encounter (plus one from before the first encounter) but have two songs going every fight.

If you get a Familiar, be sure to get one of the Outsider type so you can Polymorph it (via Sublime Chord) into an amazing combat form, like a Kelvezu (MM2) or Arrow Demon (MM3). Be sure to max UMD and give it a (Eternal) Wand of Web and maybe Tanglefoot Bags and other alchemical items. Give it a (Eternal) Wand of Silence and it can ready an action to use that centered on a point in space when an enemy casts a spell with a verbal component, and the spell will be ruined automatically.

For more feat options, Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) is extremely useful, especially at your current level since you'll be so short on 1st level spells. You could also pick up Magical Training (PGtF) to get a spellbook which you've already scribed several spells into, which means you should be able to add more spells to it the same way a Wizard does (RAW questionable). With Versatile Spellcaster you can spend two Bard spell slots to cast any spell you know of one level higher, which would include spells you put into that spellbook. You would probably need to have the book open to the desired spell when doing so, so it's probably not something you'll want to do in combat, but it would add a ton of versatility to your otherwise limited spell selection.

[Spuddles]

You cannot inspirational boost and badge of courage in the same round unless you're an RKV.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You cannot inspirational boost and badge of courage in the same round unless you're an RKV.

Badge of Valor takes your next round's swift action, because it's assumed that you activate it immediately after your turn ends. You can Inspirational Boost + Inspire the first round, then Inspirational Boost + Inspire + Badge on the second round, and the badge uses your 3rd round's swift action.

[Talya]

Bardic Knack gives you 1/2 your bard level (rounded up) as virtual ranks in all skills, regardless of whether they are trained -- they just don't make untrained skills usable if they require they be trained in order to use them.

Jack of all Trades renders all skills usable, regardless of whether they are trained.


It's pretty clear how they stack. Anyone who says otherwise is just making a semantical argument.

As for Song of the Heart .... it's a great feat. However, you can get it without spending a feat at level 6, if you wait. Depends on what you want...

[Togo]

I'd recommend versatile performer or song of the heart.

Have a look at the masterwork instruments rules in complete adventurer. Then look at all the magic items that instruments you can't play. Being able to play more than one instrument is very useful in practice.

Song of the heart just makes your bread and butter buffing better.

Alternatively, I'd give a plea for two-weapon fighting (or rapid shot), for use with ranged attacks. Once you add a small str bonus, and your bard song bonus, then even a dagger does decent damage. Bards are good and buffing, but you won't have enough spells and bardsongs to use one every round, so some form of attack is good.

[Spuddles]

Badge of Valor takes your next round's swift action, because it's assumed that you activate it immediately after your turn ends. You can Inspirational Boost + Inspire the first round, then Inspirational Boost + Inspire + Badge on the second round, and the badge uses your 3rd round's swift action.

I thought you could only use swift actions on your turn. Neither the badge nor the spell are immediate action.

[nedz]

... You can Inspirational Boost + Inspire Courage (+X attack/damage) the first round, then ...

Starting Inspire Courage is a standard action (PH p29), how are you getting the attack ?

[Spuddles]

Starting Inspire Courage is a standard action (PH p29), how are you getting the attack ?

He's not; he's just clarifying the sort of inspiring bard song he's doing- standard inspire courage as opposed to the dragonfire vareity.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I thought you could only use swift actions on your turn. Neither the badge nor the spell are immediate action.

The Badge of Valor (MIC version) is an immediate action to activate.

[Spuddles]

The Badge of Valor (MIC version) is an immediate action to activate.

Damn, really? I am running an IC bard, this helps a lot. Thanks bro!

[Gwendol]

Talya, that may be the case, but the wording of how bardic knack applies to skills that require training suggests JoaT isn't enough. Still, having both does mean you kan use all skills without spending ranks which is sweet all by itself.

[nedz]

He's not; he's just clarifying the sort of inspiring bard song he's doing- standard inspire courage as opposed to the dragonfire vareity.

OK - I misread the previous post.