Pathfinder - first level statistical conundrum for a dual wielder.

[dehro]

hi there.. so..
I'm about to start playing PF for the first time and got curious about what the best combo would be for weapons. I have 2 options:

I've got a first level dual wielding character with TWF feat and weapon focus on battleaxe.
I have 2 battleaxes.
I also have a short sword.

this means I can either go with 2 battleaxes or 1 battleaxe and a shortsword in the offhand.

as far as I can tell, the options would come out as follows:

1) main hand - battleaxe - attack bonus: 6-4*=2
damage: 1d8+4 (str bonus) crit. x3
Off hand - battleaxe - attack bonus: 6-4*=2
damage: 1d8+2 (half str bonus) crit x3
*for dual wielding with feat

2) main hand - battleaxe - attack bonus: 6-2** =4
damage: 1d8+4 (str bonus) crit. x3
Off hand - short sword - attack bonus: 5-2**=3
damage: 1d6+2 (half str bonus) crit 19-20/x2
** for dual wielding with feat and short weapon in off hand

I'm crap at these things..so.. can anyone tell me what would be the better option, based on the numbers? or is it simply that the first option hits less often and does more damage, and the second option is the opposite? and if that's the case, which is best, at noob level 1?

[DefKab]

I will provide my expert opinion here.

Firstly. You shoulda put this in the 3.5 thread, but no worries.

Secondly. It is of my opinion that not hitting is the equivalent of doing 0 damage. So, if you cant hit, then your extra damage means nothing.
However it does look really awesome weilding two battleaxes...
Its really up to you, to play whatever you want, but I do believe that technically, the ten percent increase in to hit is better than two extra points in average damage from the battleaxe. Summary: +2 to hit > +2 Damage.

[mcv]

I know very little about TWF, but based on these numbers, the second option is best. Both weapons hit more often, and only one does a tiny bit less damage.

Suppose you've got an enemy with AC 10. Very easy to hit, so hit bonuses should matter less here.

Option 1: both weapons miss on a 7 or less. That's 0.65 * 1d8+4 = 0.65*8.5 = 5.525 and 0.65 * 6.5 = 4.225. Total: 9.75 average damage.

Option 2: The first weapon misses on a 5 or less, the second on a 6 or less. 0.75 * 8.5 = 6.375 and 0.7 * 5.5 = 3.85. Total: 10.925.

So against AC 10, option 2 is only 0.025 damage per turn better. As soon as enemies have higher AC than that, option 1 wins. Try these same calculations with an AC of 14, for example.

Edit: I originally made a calculation error, giving the battle axes 1 extra point of damage. Option 1 is already worse against AC 10. And the higher the opponent's AC, the biggest the to-hit bonus is going to count. On the other hand, double battle axes does look cool.

[dehro]

very well.. I'll go for it that way until I can lower the negative bonus another bit with improved focus and stuff..
short sword it is.
but yeah..badass double battleaxe is almost worth it, just for kicks :smallbiggrin:

[DefKab]

very well.. I'll go for it that way until I can lower the negative bonus another bit with improved focus and stuff..
short sword it is.
but yeah..badass double battleaxe is almost worth it, just for kicks :smallbiggrin:

I'd do it, because you're probably a dwarf, using a Battleaxe in one hand at first, and when given the option, I'd rather have my dwarf weild a nice axe instead of a puny sword, but thats just me. Whatever you do, make sure its fun.

[dehro]

half-orc actually :smallbiggrin:

[navar100]

It's ok not to be the most optimal. It's fine to get the math as best as possible, but if personal preference for roleplay and funness means your to hit roll is one or two less than it could have been, that is not a blasphemy against gamedom.

There is also a metagame factor with respect to your DM. He is going to take into account what you can or can't do and how well or not well. Expect the occasional opponent where fighting with two battle axes is a significant hindrance you'll need to come up with another strategy. However, this will occur far, far less than every combat you'll ever encounter. For the large majority of your combats fighting with two battle axes will be fine. You'll need to support the build. Weapon Focus helps. Two-weapon fighting related feats, Improved Critical, a Critical Hit feat or two, magic battle axes, etc., are other ways. Flank with the Rogue for mutual benefit.

You may or may not decide that fighting with battle axe/short sword is better after some levels of play, but don't let -1 or -2 off the best possible number EVAR ruin your enthusiasm.

[dehro]

optimal would be scimitars..with 18-20/2 crit.. but axes work better for flavour

[gourdcaptain]

You could go for a handaxe in the off-hand to be more thematic if you're going for the One-Handed/Light combo. (Or a throwing axe, if you want a backup ranged weapon, but the worse crit mod may not be worth it.) Depends on if you have proficiency in those, though. Not sure since you didn't list the class.

[dehro]

You could go for a handaxe in the off-hand to be more thematic if you're going for the One-Handed/Light combo. (Or a throwing axe, if you want a backup ranged weapon, but the worse crit mod may not be worth it.) Depends on if you have proficiency in those, though. Not sure since you didn't list the class.

derp... I didn't..did I?
level 1 half-orc fighter with TWW archetype.
btw, we've started playing and I'm killing stuff :smallbiggrin:

[Hylas]

IThere is also a metagame factor with respect to your DM. He is going to take into account what you can or can't do and how well or not well.
<melodramatic>
"Oh no! This zombie has DR 5/slashing. If only someone could do a lot of slashing based attacks and didn't have a piercing only off-hand!"
</melodramatic>

[Roguenewb]

I love the DR on skellies and zombies at low levels, it's so hilariously hard for groups to bypass some times.

[Hylas]

I love the DR on skellies and zombies at low levels, it's so hilariously hard for groups to bypass some times.

I just DMed a first level group where the final boss was a zombie with a decent amount of HP (42). It was gestalt and the big melee guys had greatswords and there was a ranged paladin (negate DR with smite evil), along with some wizards and clerics. They were first level gestalts in a party of 7 and they literally had every single class in this group.

I figure they like to mess with me because some of them ran away, another grappled the zombie, then disarmed him, and started using the morningstar (bludgeoning and piercing damage) that the zombie had, and no one wanted to use a slashing weapon suddenly (I even had longswords in the previous room, which they all ignored). Three or four rounds in the paladin decided that using smite evil would be a good idea with her longbow and shortsword combo, and the cleric used cure light wounds on the baddie.


Anyways, related to the thread. If you get feats like weapon focus, weapon specialization, and improved critical they make two weapon fighting more effective since the bonuses effectively apply twice.