Dual Elven Thinblades? (Rogue)

[Olfgar]

So, I will be playing a Human Rogue/Fighter (yeah yeah yeah, i know, Factotum with gnomish quickrazors instead but our Dm would prefer that our characters make sense from a lore stand point rather a min/max one) and Im thinking of spending Taking Two Weapon Fighting, Over Sized Two Weapon Fighting, and Exotic Weapon proficiency Elven Thinblade. Is that a retarded idea?

PS: im primarily rogue, only dipping into fighter for 2-4 levels (for HP, and bonus feats)As well as possibly sacrificing one or two of the rogues special ability for a bonus feat instead.

[RMS Oceanic]

If you're determined to use EWP, I'd go with Elven Lightblades instead. There's very little difference between the Lightblade's d6 and Thinblade's d8.

[LordBlades]

So, I will be playing a Human Rogue/Fighter (yeah yeah yeah, i know, Factotum with gnomish quickrazors instead but our Dm would prefer that our characters make sense from a lore stand point rather a min/max one) and Im thinking of spending Taking Two Weapon Fighting, Over Sized Two Weapon Fighting, and Exotic Weapon proficiency Elven Thinblade. Is that a retarded idea?
How would a gnome factotum dual-wielding quickrazors not make sense fluff-wise?

Also, oversized twf is a waste imo.

You might also want to look into warblade for Blood in the Water stance (combined eventually with aptitude weapons and lightning maces)

[JadePhoenix]

OTWF is not very good, specially if you're finessing.
Since you want a dual-wield rogue, I'd advise Daring Outlaw. Swashbuckler/Rogue with dual short swords, or rapier + short sword, or rapier + kukri or somesuch.
Weapon damage dice is rarely relevant beyond the lower levels and even more so for sneak attackers.

So basically, it's not a retarded idea, but it's very suboptimal.



How would a gnome factotum dual-wielding quickrazors not make sense fluff-wise?
I believe it's iaijutsu that makes no sense fluff-wise in this character. Iaijutsu, after all, depends entirely on the sheath.

[Olfgar]

Ah. Only reason i was going with EWP was for the Slightly higher Damage of the ETB Over regular rapiers/Light Weapons, and still being alowed to Pick up Weapon Finesse with the Thinblades. If OTWF is that useless, I could just go with the Rapier+Other light weapon, and save 2 feats (the EWP and OTWF) for something else, such as increasong Poison DC's, , etc.

[Darrin]

Improved Weapon Familiarity (Complete Warrior) might work better than EWP. You can treat elven courtblades, thinblades, and lightblades as martial weapons. EWP and Oversize TWF isn't generally recommended 'round these parts just because feats are a scarce resource, and a +1 damage increase is a pretty lousy payoff for a feat.

However, Oversize TWF allows you to Power Attack with both weapons. This isn't particularly ideal, since you don't have enough spare feats to really do the Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper feat chain proper justice (because you wasted all your feats on this TWF nonsense), and you may have trouble hitting because you still have TWF penalties on top of Power Attack penalties. You also don't get to take advantage of the Power Attack multipliers... unless you dip into Exotic Weapon Master for the Uncanny Blow Exotic Weapon Stunt.

[Olfgar]

Ok so Rapier/Short Sword it is for my weapon finesse then xD

[Taelas]

Might be better to just go with two short-swords, especially if you plan to dip Swordsage for Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade (Dex to damage).

My ideal dual-wield build is Rogue/Swashbuckler/Swordsage with Daring Outlaw, Shadow Blade, Assassin's Stance, wielding dual short swords. Assassin's Stance helps shore up your SA dice, and Shadow Blade lets you completely dump Str in favor of Dex. Swashbuckler adds full BAB, and thanks to Daring Outlaw, almost full SA dice on top.

[Gwendol]

Don't forget insightful strike, and if you add on Craven even more SA damage.

[Snowbluff]

Umm... IIRC the Thinblade isn't worth the EWP. Can anyone tell me why anyone would do this?

[Olfgar]

What be dis Craven your talking about?

[Taelas]

Craven is a feat; it lets you add your level in damage to your SA dice. So a 5th level rogue with the Craven feat does 3d6+5 extra damage with a sneak attack.

[Olfgar]

Hmm that sounds fun. Is it rogue level only? or your total level.

[Pancritic]

Hmm that sounds fun. Is it rogue level only? or your total level.It's +1 damage per character level.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, it's a sweet feat. Compare with say, weapon focus.

[Keld Denar]

Its a decent feat with a couple of caveats. One, its in Champions of Ruin, which, while not completely obscure, is not a book most people have. Its also a FR book, technically. Second, you get a -2 on saves vs fear, and most importantly, you can't become immune to fear. No Mind Blank, no Heroes Feast. Those are two staples of high level play. Its still good at low to mid levels though.

[Gwendol]

You can probably trade it for something else if you survive that far.

[Deox]

Craven has to be taken at 1st level, and you get a -2 penalty to will saves vs. fear (IIRC, you can never become immune to fear either).

[Taelas]

It doesn't have to be taken at 1st level, no.

It is a prerequisite to not be immune to fear. Thus, if you obtain immunity to fear in some manner, the feat is unavailable for the duration of your immunity.

[Keld Denar]

Right...and having a feat turned off during the bulk of your adventuring time at high levels is...wasteful at best. Just saying. It gets a ton of love round here, but the disadvantages often get swept under the rug. Just laying it out there for the OP to understand.

[Taelas]

Right...and having a feat turned off during the bulk of your adventuring time at high levels is...wasteful at best. Just saying. It gets a ton of love round here, but the disadvantages often get swept under the rug. Just laying it out there for the OP to understand.

Oh, I agree; but immunity to fear is hardly a necessity for a rogue.

[Olfgar]

I do agree that it is a good risk/reward ratio normally, but i believe my DM is making this campaign into High magic, so itll be very common, so itll be something i have to think upon.

[Gwendol]

As feats go, this is a well-made one. It scales and stays relevant for a long time, while offering a trade-off the player will have to consider and deal with.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

yar, I am a big believer that Craven is overrated. Its awesome for the extra damage and all, but the drawback do hurt bad at high levels. Its sucks when you are running away like a pansy (very unheroic, I might add) while your party is being mauled, and could use your fistfuls of d6's +Craven to help them out. Yeah, Craven was SO good to take now that you are running away and can't use it.

[Deox]

It's only a -2 to Will saves vs fear. If you're really worried about a -2 penalty, well, that's a whole other can o' worms.

[Olfgar]

lol its almost as painful to decide between what to do with the Prisoner dilema when your a good aligned character xD

Take the damage and get warlock feard, or not lol

[Keld Denar]

Oh, I agree; but immunity to fear is hardly a necessity for a rogue.

No, but it is a side effect of other things. At high levels, Mind Blank is vital. You gotta keep Charles outta your head, after all. All fear effects are Mind Affecting, so Mind Blank makes you immune to fear. Heroes Feast is also common, and not partaking in it also loses you the temp HP and the immunity to poisons which are common enough at high levels, especially amongst devils and some other high level intelligent foes.

It is a huge trade off at higher levels. Immunity to Fear comes packaged with several other critical benefits. Alone, its not the end of the world, but foregoing it could get you dead or worse.

[JadePhoenix]

It's only a -2 to Will saves vs fear. If you're really worried about a -2 penalty, well, that's a whole other can o' worms.

No mindblank. No heroes' feast.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

its not the -2 to will vs. fear thats bad... its the whole "no immunity to fear" bit. Its a common immunity, because its a common ability for monsters/spellcasters to have/use. IF you don't have it, the first dragon/whatever causes fear you run into will have you dropping your weapons and screaming and running like an unheroic commoner for the nearest exit, while your mates get eaten/mauled.

it sucks surviving the TPK cos you were running away instead of dealing 10d6+20 damage on every hit.

[Olfgar]

Hmm...those things seem like its a pretty big trade off...maybe craven is going out the windows

[Gwendol]

But getting to be immune to fear just makes the feat stop functioning. So what. You still get to apply the respectable damage bonus to those situations when you don't need to be immune to fear. And at lower levels that extra damage is really useful for the rogue. At higher levels ditch the feat and get your strength up to increase damage the usual way.

[JadePhoenix]

But getting to be immune to fear just makes the feat stop functioning. So what. You still get to apply the respectable damage bonus to those situations when you don't need to be immune to fear. And at lower levels that extra damage is really useful for the rogue. At higher levels ditch the feat and get your strength up to increase damage the usual way.

How about you take Daring Outlaw instead and you have no problems, ever? you even get a cool hat.

[Taelas]

How about you take Daring Outlaw instead and you have no problems, ever? you even get a cool hat.

They aren't mutually exclusive. (In other words, get both.)

[Olfgar]

Cool hats are always a plus xD

Its to bad that you cat trade feats out if you dont want them anymore.

[Gwendol]

Note that there will still be a sizeable amount of situations (combats) where fear immunity is not required, and in any case, you will still be dealing plenty of SA damage.

[Keld Denar]

The thing about Mind Blank is that you often don't know when you are gonna need it before you need it, and once you need it, its often too late. That combined with Mind Blank's 24 hour duration and Heroes Feast's 12 hour duration, you probably always have it up or from an item unless you get dispelled.

[Gwendol]

Isn't there an immediate action activation mind blank item?

[JadePhoenix]

They aren't mutually exclusive. (In other words, get both.)
If you have the room, sure.
TWF, ITWF, GTWF - that's three already.
Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat, so it does not count.
Martial Study + Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance, that's another two.
With Daring Outlaw and Craven, that's all you'll ever have. No room for Shadow Blade, no room for Surprising Riposte, no room for Elusive Target or for skillmonkey feats.
I'm not a fan of Craven for all reasons already mentioned and the one reason I usually see for taking it is because you don't need to bother with SA boosters. +20 damage is about the same as a +6d6 sneak attack, after all.
My thing is... I don't want my characters to be cowards. The fact that I can get the same result with other feats while being able to be under effect of mindblank and heroes' feast is just gravvy.

[Keld Denar]

Not that I'm aware of. There is Third Eye Clarity, which gets you out of some bad things, but that only helps on disabling effects that leaves you able to voluntarily take mental actions. Being Panicked, Dominated, Unconscious, or Dead makes it rather difficult to use the item.

[Taelas]

If you have the room, sure.
TWF, ITWF, GTWF - that's three already.
Weapon Finesse is a bonus feat, so it does not count.
Martial Study + Martial Stance for Assassin's Stance, that's another two.
With Daring Outlaw and Craven, that's all you'll ever have. No room for Shadow Blade, no room for Surprising Riposte, no room for Elusive Target or for skillmonkey feats.
I'm not a fan of Craven for all reasons already mentioned and the one reason I usually see for taking it is because you don't need to bother with SA boosters. +20 damage is about the same as a +6d6 sneak attack, after all.
My thing is... I don't want my characters to be cowards. The fact that I can get the same result with other feats while being able to be under effect of mindblank and heroes' feast is just gravvy.

Which is why you don't take Martial Study and Martial Stance. You take a 2-dip into Swordsage and take Shadow Blade and dual-wield short swords. 11d6 SA at level 20, +20 from Craven, 18/19 BAB (depending on fractional BAB or not), Dex to damage.

[JadePhoenix]

Which is why you don't take Martial Study and Martial Stance. You take a 2-dip into Swordsage and take Shadow Blade and dual-wield short swords. 11d6 SA at level 20, +20 from Craven, 18/19 BAB (depending on fractional BAB or not), Dex to damage.
Yeah, without mindblank and heroes' feast.
Without Craven and the Swordsage dip, you get more sneak atack (12d6), weakening critical, a +1 to dodge bonus, more bab and more hp.
I'm not saying you shouldn't take Craven, I'm just saying it's not a must have feat. It has quite heavy disadvantages. I'd much rather play a vanilla Daring Outlaw. YMMV, of course.

[Taelas]

You only take one level in Rogue, and two levels in Swordsage. The difference is, at most, 1 BAB, and that's only if you don't use fractional BAB.

11d6 sneak attack + 20 for Craven is far superior to 12d6. Yes, you lose the Craven bonus while under the effect of Mind Blank or similar buffs, but that's hardly a character-breaking flaw.

[Keld Denar]

You need 2 dice of SA for Daring Outlaw. Most Daring Outlaw builds have 3 or 4 Rogue levels. You need 3 if you want the Penetrating Strike ACF for half SA to undead and constructs.

I dunno if the 2 dice from Assassin's Stance would qualify you.

[Olfgar]

Ive never heard of using a fractional BAB

[Taelas]

You need 2 dice of SA for Daring Outlaw. Most Daring Outlaw builds have 3 or 4 Rogue levels. You need 3 if you want the Penetrating Strike ACF for half SA to undead and constructs.

I dunno if the 2 dice from Assassin's Stance would qualify you.

Assassin's Stance provides sneak attack damage, so it works just as well as a Rogue's. The only issue is that Daring Outlaw progresses the Rogue's progression, so at least one level in Rogue is required.

[JadePhoenix]

You only take one level in Rogue, and two levels in Swordsage. The difference is, at most, 1 BAB, and that's only if you don't use fractional BAB.

11d6 sneak attack + 20 for Craven is far superior to 12d6. Yes, you lose the Craven bonus while under the effect of Mind Blank or similar buffs, but that's hardly a character-breaking flaw.
Just check Mind Blank's duration. I'll be waiting.

[Taelas]

Just check Mind Blank's duration. I'll be waiting.
What does the fact that it is an all-day duration have to do with this discussion?

When you don't need it, you don't activate it -- or you dismiss it.

[JadePhoenix]

What does the fact that it is an all-day duration have to do with this discussion?

When you don't need it, you don't activate it.

...how will you know when you're going to need it?! And after you use it, you lose Craven's bonus till the rest of the day (and maybe most of the next day, depending on when you use it).

[Keld Denar]

Thats kinda like only wearing your seat belt when you are about to get into a car accident. If you aren't already wearing it when you need it, its too late to deploy it.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I like the feat, its just not as much of a no brainer as some people make it out to be. It has very real risks and very real benefits.

[Taelas]

...how will you know when you're going to need it?! And after you use it, you lose Craven's bonus till the rest of the day (and maybe most of the next day, depending on when you use it).

You only activate it to come up in fights where having it is important. Not all high level fights need it.

Yes, you lose the 24-hour protection. So what? You're a rogue, not a caster. It's not like you need mind blank as badly.

[Keld Denar]

Or more. You dont want telepathy to reveal you. Or people to Scry on you while you are doing stuff. Or being Dominated and dealing 11d6+20 per hit to one of your party members with your weak will save and general lack of focus on Wisdom. Will saves are generally a rogue type character's weak point even with a Superior Resistance casting or +5 Cloak.

[Andorax]

Is there anyone else who's (rules aside) just plain PHILOSOPHICALLY opposed to taking two feats called Craven and Daring Outlaw?

[Taelas]

Or more. You dont want telepathy to reveal you. Or people to Scry on you while you are doing stuff. Or being Dominated and dealing 11d6+20 per hit to one of your party members with your weak will save and general lack of focus on Wisdom. Will saves are generally a rogue type character's weak point even with a Superior Resistance casting or +5 Cloak.

There are other ways of becoming protected against those effects. Mind blank is by far the easiest, but it is certainly not the only one.

Andorax, it's a name; I don't see where the issue is -- at least, no issue that wouldn't already be present with taking the feat while being a Swashbuckler in the first place.

[JadePhoenix]

Is there anyone else who's (rules aside) just plain PHILOSOPHICALLY opposed to taking two feats called Craven and Daring Outlaw?

There is me. ^^

[Olfgar]

Whats so wrong about taking Craven AND Daring outlaw

[Roguenewb]

Might be better to just go with two short-swords, especially if you plan to dip Swordsage for Assassin's Stance and Shadow Blade (Dex to damage).

My ideal dual-wield build is Rogue/Swashbuckler/Swordsage with Daring Outlaw, Shadow Blade, Assassin's Stance, wielding dual short swords.

QFT. This is also my dual wielding build, its a good one.

[Keld Denar]

Craven means cowardly. Daring means brave. Those are opposites.

That said, I don't have any problem with taking both. Its just mechanics. Neither has a mechanical restriction on taking the other.

I just have an issue with people claiming that Craven is the greatest thing since sliced bread and never discuss the drawbacks and how they can impact a character, especially a high level character. Its not a bad feat. Its a VERY VERY GOOD feat. It does come with a price, however, which I personally find crippling at the higher levels. If you don't plan on playing above level 12 or so, then its not a problem. Above there, however, it becomes more and more and more of a problem if you choose to try to maintain use of it, or a dead feat if you opt out.

[White_Drake]

You could just be one of those guys who acts all tough until things start to get ugly, and then crack under the pressure (ever seen any horror movies?)

[Taelas]

Craven means cowardly. Daring means brave. Those are opposites.

That said, I don't have any problem with taking both. Its just mechanics. Neither has a mechanical restriction on taking the other.

I just have an issue with people claiming that Craven is the greatest thing since sliced bread and never discuss the drawbacks and how they can impact a character, especially a high level character. Its not a bad feat. Its a VERY VERY GOOD feat. It does come with a price, however, which I personally find crippling at the higher levels. If you don't plan on playing above level 12 or so, then its not a problem. Above there, however, it becomes more and more and more of a problem if you choose to try to maintain use of it, or a dead feat if you opt out.

There is always retraining if it becomes too much of an issue.

[Olfgar]

Your able to retrain feats? thats news to me.

Its just to bad that scimitars arent considerd light, cause i like the feel of slightly large slashing weapons more than piercing, but i shall be finnessing.

[Taelas]

Your able to retrain feats? thats news to me.

Its just to bad that scimitars arent considerd light, cause i like the feel of slightly large slashing weapons more than piercing, but i shall be finnessing.

Player's Handbook II introduces the concept of retraining.

The Dervish prestige class considers scimitars light, if it's important. It's found in Complete Warrior.

[Olfgar]

Its not a must, i was more or less lamenting over that my fluff isnt readily available lol