Building a rogue (Str vs Dex)

[Olfgar]

So ive been thinking of making a Rogue, possibly dipping inot fighter for a couple levels for a couple extra feats and what not (not 100% commited to the fighter yet) And then PrCing into Assassin (again not 100% commited to it yet) but im rambling.

What im wondering, Would it be better to go for a Dex rogue, so high dex, light weapons, light armor and dual weilding OR for a Str rogue, Medium mithril armor, lower dex but higher Str, and possibly OTWF to get double On handed weapons etc or what have you.

Str vs Dex, what should I do.

PS: Yeees i know all about Factotum, busting out gnomish quickrazors with Iiajutsu focus, but im feeling like playing rogue. This isnt a discussion on class vs class.

[Azoth]

Dex trumps Str for a Rogue. PERIOD. TWFing is a given since you listed OTWF. If you can manage two free feats or atleast 1 level dip and a feat, you can get dex to damage easily enough. Either with martial study + shadow blade or sword sage + shadow blade. If you are looking for a Full BAB dip then I suggest swashbuckler to 3. That will get you weapon finesse for free, Int to Damage, 4+int skill points a level, and qualify you for daring outlaw feat to get rogue+swash levels to stack for SA damage dice.

[Olfgar]

Hmm i completly forgot about Swashbuckler...Dont know if it fits the feel of my character, but it might be something I look into...

[Taelas]

You need 3 feats to pull off Dex to damage without levels in Swordsage (and 2 levels is better than one, as the best combat stance for SA is Assassin's Stance, and you have to pick a 1st level stance for your first): Martial Study, Martial Stance, and Shadow Blade. Shadow Blade requires a stance, and Martial Stance requires a maneuver. Don't go the feat route, especially if you want to dual-wield.

Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler +2/Swordsage +1/Swashbuckler +12 is excellent. You qualify for Shadow Blade at 6th, Assassin's Stance at level 8, and Daring Outlaw at level 9, whereafter you go full Swashbuckler to take advantage of full BAB and full SA. You end up with 18 BAB (19 if you use fractional BAB), 11d6 SA (9d6 from levels, +2d6 from Assassin's Stance), Dex to damage, etc.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

well, as far as how i would build it, would be finesse, without two weapons, with a rapier, Snap Kick, a buckler, and a dip into Cleric or Wizard to use wands 100% of the time. it makes a very survivable rogue for the first 10 levels, after that, two weapon fighting becomes more viable with craven, higher hit points ,etc.

HOWEVER, in the DPR olympics, a STR based rogue with a two handed weapon does better in every situations that doesn't demand a full attack, which is often. More often than not, you are moving/tumbling into position to flank, charging into melee, or attacking and then moving away. Such a build also doesnt end up standing right next to the huge monster, waiting to be smacked for a full attack in return, thus, once again increasing your survivability.

If you DON'T go two weapon fighting, (which again, I highly suggest) a wand bracer (dungeonscape) allows access to five wands as a swift action, plus one in hand if you use a rapier and buckler. However, a two handed fighter can benefit from this as well. Remember a wand bracer in your weapon and/or shield. this allows an additional one or two wands to be "wielded". Again, this goes well with a dip into Cleric or Wizard, seeing as UMD doesnt come online fully until level 10 or so, even later depending on your charisma. With a Cleric, you can also benefit from med./heavy armor, which is helpful to a STR based two hander especially.

DEX NEVER trumps STR, because Finesse is a trap. However, I do find it acceptable (but still not optimized fully) for a TWF or rapier/buckler rogue. Basically, finesse allows you to hit for a stat you dont normally use to hit, which can be negated by just using STR. In essence, its a waste of a feat, though I admit I'm still a Finesse junkie, because i see my rogues as quick and nimble, not strong and thuggish. also, a DEX focused build lacks damage, a problem a STR build doesnt have. in theory, Sneak attack negates this problem, but no matter hwo you cut, there will be sometimes you can't get off a Sneak Attack, at which point a STR build will be superior.

[shortround]

Don't think of the Swashbuckler as a pirate that buckles swashes; nothing mechanically about the class makes the Swashbuckler particularly well-suited to being a pirate. Think of Swashbuckler more as a finesse fighter, similar to a rogue (INT to damage, weapon finesse, grace/stunts, good skill list), but with more focus on martial training (good HD and full BAB).

[Gwendol]

Look up various Daring Outlaw builds.

Essentially get TWF, Craven, the penetrating strike ACF for the rogue, and the Daring Outlaw feat (duh!) for class level stacking. This type of build will rely on using flanking (mostly) to trigger sneak attack, and get a lot of extra damage that way. You get weapon finesse as bonus feat from swashbuckler.
I suggest using rapier and handaxe, but there are plenty of other choices.

[ericgrau]

Str does more damage than dex and usually trumps it for combat. The reason dex is often good for rogues is because many of their skills are dex based. However melee tends to be trouble for fragile rogues, and often leads to "help, my rogue is dying" threads.

The TWF finesse rogue is someone who has too little attack bonus to actually hit with his extra damage. And he doesn't actually have that much extra damage because he's missing strength bonus damage. So he goes to a lot of trouble just to have less damage than someone with full BAB and a high strength. And then his d6 light armor self drops before he can full attack anyway.

So the ideal combat rogue would have a dex of 12 and dip fighter for heavy armor proficiency while focusing on strength. He'd have a shield or buckler to protect his poor d6s. He'd also be as stealthy as a brick. Thus you have to pick your own preference when balancing skills and combat. If you're going pure rogue then the rapier finesse + buckler rogue will at least land more hits in melee than TWF (again, because he won't instantly drop dead) without sacrificing any stealth capability. Damage and survivability is still worse than other melee, but at least it's a step up and you have your skills.

[Olfgar]

lol, my rogue isnt a thief, its just someone that helps you avoid getting into a medium load by taking stuff off your hands :P

But yeah, I dont t think i'll be doing a 2h rogue...I havent looked into swordsage yet, But im Thinking im going to go Rogue with dips into atleast 3 levels of Swashbuckler, maybe 2 for Fighter, And PrC into Assassin.

Again no mention of swordsage since I haven looked into it yet.

[ericgrau]

Hmm, looking again at the first post I will say that some kind of focus either way is better than a split focus. Damage is important, but attack bonus > damage when considering ability scores so your high stat should be high. Either finesse with a high dex but ok str, or focus str with an ok dex to meet the max dex on your armor and fuel your stealthy skills. Masterwork breastplate then later mithril breastplate is a possible compromise for a str focus with a tolerable armor check penalty. And a masterwork buckler, darkwood (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#darkwood) light shield or darkwood heavy shield has zero armor check penalty. Since all 3 shields have no ACP they also have zero penalty for nonproficiency, so if you decide to skip fighter they're still open.

[Gwendol]

Agreed. Playing a rogue means you do NOT stand and trade full attacks with anyone or anything. It means you use any trick necessary to avoid getting hit/seen/detected while dealing out the pain when and where you can.

Playing a daring outlaw means you minimize the D6 hit dice, go next to full BAB, and still deal respectable damage through SA/Craven/Insightful strike etc. If you can manage that while keeping STR up, all the power to you, for a high strength will only make such a build better and even more adaptable.

[Lonely Tylenol]

A DEX-based Rogue with Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade gets DEX to the following:
To-hit (instead of STR)
Damage (in addition to STR)
AC (and touch, but not flat)
Initiative
Reflex save
Tumble, Open Lock, Escape Artist, and other skill checks

A STR-based Rogue without Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade gets STR to the following:
To-hit
Damage

And DEX to the following:
AC (and touch, but not flat)
Initiative
Reflex save
Tumble, Open Lock, Escape Artist, and other skill checks

But is also four feats (Weapon Finesse, Martial Study, Martial Stance, and Shadow Blade), or two feats and at least one class level (Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade, plus a Swordsage dip for a Shadow Hand stance or two for Assassin's Stance) ahead of the DEX-based Rogue above.

If you can do something meaningful with those two feats (let's be honest here; Rogues don't have a capstone and only advance one save at level 20, so the least optimal thing you can do is take that 20th level of Rogue, and why not make that inevitable dip Swordsage?), like Craven and something else that's cool (preferably something you wouldn't take anyway), maybe Quick Draw and Flick of the Wrist or... Something, then it may be worth it to keep STR at least at a respectable level. In either case, your DEX is still good for touch AC, initiative, Reflex save and Tumble (plus other Roguish skills), so you will never dump DEX as a Rogue from an optimization standpoint. You just need to decide whether the two feats and the Swordsage dip are worth being slightly MADder than usual.

[Olfgar]

MAD?

Also i might be slightly slow, but your post kind of confused me on whether or not I should Go for a dex rogue over str.

[Taelas]

Multiple-Attribute Dependent. He is not telling you to go for one or the other, he is presenting the pros and cons of either choice.

[Olfgar]

Also, we will be doing a 32 point buy if it matters to ye.

[ericgrau]

Summary: Str (plus heavier armor to make up for the lower dex) better for combat, dex (and thus lighter armor and lower armor check penalty) better for skills. Get both, but don't get half and half. Focus mostly on one because you need a high attack bonus.

EDIT: Ah 32 point buy will help you get both while still having a high score in your main focus.

[ILM]

EDIT: Ah 32 point buy will help you get both while still having a high score in your main focus.
Not really though. A 32 point buy gets him a 16 in both without completely tanking his other stats, or a 14/16 and a balanced array, but it doesn't help later on in the character's career. As he gains more abilities the MAD only becomes increasingly straining; unfortunately, ability scores don't follow suit. While you can usually get one stat in the high 20/low 30s by the end of a progression (16 base, +5 levels, +6 item, already 27), it's hard to push two up there (and if you do, I shudder at the cost).

MAD only gets worse as levels increase (unless of yourse your progression is designed to give you SAD).

[ericgrau]

Yes he should put all his level up bonuses in one stat, but dex 16 is enough to wear breastplate. By the time he gets mithril he can also get a magic item for dex and still focus on str. If Olfgar insists on being suicidal due to personal preference, with magic items a 15 or 16 dex is enough to handle the TWF tree while still focusing all his level up bonuses on str and also getting str items.

Let's see:
str 16, dex 16, con 14, 10s in mental stats or 12/10/8 or etc.
str 18, dex 14, con 14, 10/10/8 in mentals or 12/8/8 or etc.
dex 18, str 14, con 14, 10/10/8 in mentals or 12/8/8 or etc.
str 17, dex 15, con 14, 10/10/9 in mentals or etc

Compared to the 1st option the second is +1 AB (attack bonus), -1 AC, +1 damage, same ACP. The 3rd is +1 AB, same AC (breastplate => chain shirt), -1 damage, -2 ACP. I'd get the 2nd or 3rd; both look much better than the 1st. The 2nd is much better than the 3rd for combat at all levels: at low levels +2 damage for -1 AC is a no brainer; at higher levels it scales to keep up. The 3rd is much better than the 2nd for skills: +4 to dex skills at first and later it gets way better than that. But trapfinding is unaffected. The 4th and option is a little weaker than the 2nd and is listed because it seems like Olgaf wants OTWF. All 4 are only examples of course.

[Olfgar]

No im just going with light weapons, so OTWF is gone. Finesse all the way

[Soranar]

You can go full DEX with a crossbow build (through crossbow sniper). It takes a lot of feats but rogues can take extra feats instead of special abilities.

Also extends your sneak attack range to 60 ft.

Other than that, a shadowblade build with a spiked chain lets you go the reach weapon route instead and still be dex based (also works for a swashbuckler's insightful strike ability).

Dex also pumps your hide and move silently skills, which is rather helpful for a rogue.

I suggest you dip swordsage at level 9 to get the proper maneuvers and stance required for shadowblade (2d6 sneak attack damage + requirements for shadowblade is a good deal)

It is possible to make a STR based rogue but, if you do, I'd suggest getting heavy armor proficiency and dropping stealth.

[Bakkan]

An alternative to Swashbuckler levels for free Weapon Finesse is the Feycraft weapon template from DMG II, which if applied to a light weapon decreases the damage die by 1 size but allows you to use Dex for attack with the weapon without the need for a feat.

[Garwain]

More importantly, is to worry how to get sneak attack damage reliable. If not, TWF is not worth it. You could consider a dip in Ninja for the 1 round invisibility.

[Greyfeld85]

Keep in mind that your rogue doesn't necessarily have to be a melee fighter. As a dex-based combatant, it's not an unusual choice to go with bows instead of melee weapons.

Scout 3/Rogue 17 with the Swift Ambusher feat comes up with 9d6 sneak attack, and +5d6/+5AC skirmish bonus. So, what you do is you take the feat chain leading up to Greater Manyshot, pick up Deadeye Shot, and fire off your shots from within 30 feet of your target so you can trigger your sneak attack dice.

Similarly, you can go Rogue1/Ranger2/Scout17 and take both the Swift Ambusher feat and the Swift Hunter feat for +5d6/+5AC skirmish, +9d6 sneak attack, and 4 favored enemies (skirmish damage always applies against favored enemies, even if they're normally immune to crits or skirmish damage). This also grants you the Rapid Shot feat for free, as well as four bonus feats.

[Gwendol]

Strive to flank should give plenty of opportunity for SA. Later, UMD a wand of grease, or swift invisibility might do the trick.

[Bakkan]

Easier flanking can also be achieved through the Thicket of Blades stance from ToB that makes you count as flanking if you and an an ally are adjacent to the same enemy, even if you aren't on opposite sides. You can pick this up with two feats or a dip into Swordsage. The good news: it's a Shadow hand stance so you'll qualify for Shadow Blade while you're in it. The bad news: You can't use Thicket of Blades and Assassin's stance at the same time.:smallfrown: