[PF] Juju Oracle Thoughts and Questions

[stack]

As it was mentioned in a recent discussion of the undead mastery feat, I spent a little time looking over the Juju (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/mysteries/paizo---oracle-mysteries/juju)mystery for the oracle.

So, at level 10, with the undead master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/undead-master) feat, you could have (level+4)*6 = 84 HD of unintelligent undead, most likely zombies to get the max HP from spirit vessel, with a max individual HD of 14 (28 if using desecrate).

You could also command 14 HD of undead using your channel energy, with a high DC for being a CHA-based caster. using create undead (juju zombies only) as a 5th level spell, you can make intelligent undead.

Do they retain all class levels/features? I can't find a statement either way, but you are just adding a template, and it specifically calls out that class level based HD are not changed to D8s, so I think they are still functional class levels.

So does having 7 level 14 undead, one of them a functional character w/ class levels, all with maxed HD, seem a bit over powered? Or is it tempered by the various vulnerabilities and difficulty in finding suitable bodies? Because having 6 juvenile gold dragons, immune to cold, with 182 HP each sounds pretty powerful.

Thoughts? Also, what would be the best zombies to use?

ed - caveat: I'm new to undead minion-mancing, so maybe this is no big deal.

[Benly]

The juju zombie does appear to retain all class levels, and is almost certainly your best choice for Create Undead and Command Undead. The fact that you get access to it early with your mystery bonus spell is just icing. Channel resistance makes them a little trickier to control than most, but it's not nearly as bad as it was in 3.5 and what else were you planning to use your Control Undead for, anyway? Note that a juju zombie sidekick of a PC your own level, especially something like a full caster, may annoy your GM. Making another juju oracle into your juju zombie minion and forming a juju zombie conga line is technically possible but will get things thrown at you.

It also might be worth noting that your fellow PCs would probably benefit from juju zombification; they'll gain undead vulnerabilities (such as they are) but also a huge pile of benefits and a massive wad of hit points at the "cost" of having their alignment change to match yours. Again, this will probably get things thrown at you.


Oh, right, the regular zombies. Make them fast zombies; losing the DR is annoying but perma-staggered is completely terrible. They won't break the game, but they'll make handy meatwalls. Probably this is the least GM-frustrating of the undead benefits a juju oracle gets. Hydras aren't the superboss zombies they used to be; they're still pretty good but they lose Pounce like everything else does these days. Pick beefy bruisers with lots of natural armor and high ability scores for their HD, I guess.

Edit: Outsiders, especially "bruiser" types, tend to have a lot of natural armor and high stats, so they're a good choice if you can get hold of their corpses.

[stack]

Good thought on the fast zombies. Starting at level 6 I wouldn't ever make anything else. No variants zombies with animate lesser undead at 4 &5 though, but I suppose low level characters just have to make do.

[Benly]

At level 4 and 5 you're not exactly going to be hunting down prime corpses (and honestly, in most campaigns you still won't be later in your career.) Just animate whatever looks beefy and has one strong attack per round.

[Crasical]

Level seven is big for a Juju oracle who's looking to create undead, as you can pick up Create Undead, Spirit Vessels, and Undead Master all at once. Also, in the gap of level 6 to 11, consider raising Zombie Lords, who are intelligent and retain their class levels, and don't require Create Undead to make.

[Benly]

Level seven is big for a Juju oracle who's looking to create undead, as you can pick up Create Undead, Spirit Vessels, and Undead Master all at once. Also, in the gap of level 6 to 11, consider raising Zombie Lords, who are intelligent and retain their class levels, and don't require Create Undead to make.

Saying that zombie lords don't require Create Undead to make is only accurate insofar as there is no printed way to create zombie lords. d20pfsrd.com lists all the zombie variants on the same page, which can lead to some confusion, but they're not all available options by default.

[Crasical]

Where -are- the rules for creating variant zombies, then?

[Benly]

Where -are- the rules for creating variant zombies, then?

The rules for fast and plague zombies are in the zombie entry (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/zombie.html) on the PRD.


Most zombies are created using animate dead. Such zombies are always of the standard type, unless the creator also casts haste or remove paralysis to create fast zombies, or contagion to create plague zombies.

The zombie variants in Classic Horrors Revisited (including the zombie lord) list no creation method, and as such there is no specific RAW way to deliberately create them. I believe there is mention of them potentially arising as by-products of supernatural events, and of course an individual GM is free to make up any way he likes for them to be created. Generally speaking, there is no way for them to become available to PCs without GM fiat.