Help with Natural Attack Sneak Attacker {Pathfinder}

[Ravens_cry]

I was looking at ways to get sneak attack and as many natural attacks as possible.
I don't care if this looks like a freak of nature, it will be whatever I do, that's part of the plan actually, but some of the wording on some of the ways kind of trip me up. For example, the Tentacle discovery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/tentacle-ex) gives a natural attack, but how does that work with a full attack action, especially if I go Half Orc with Toothy and Feral Mutagen? Do I have 4 or 3 natural attacks on a Full Attack?
Then there is the Vestigial Arms discovery. Now, I know this in itself doesn't grant another attack, but conceivably it could be a place to put another set of claw attacks, like say from two levels of Natural Weapon Ranger and Aspect of the Beast.
Does this work?

[stack]

The toothy bite would be overridden by the feral bite, unless you can get a second head somehow. Tentacle explicitly doesn't add an extra attack. Vestigial arms either, though they could hold a reach weapon for Aoos.

I am not aware of a way to get more than three natural attacks on an alchemist without dipping (synthesist summoner being the most obvious). Might be a way to get more, but I don't know how.

[Ravens_cry]

Yes I know they in themselves don't give an extra attack, but what if you got another claw attack? Could that be "attached" to those limbs.
How would Synthesist Summonor help?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

level 2 of a Ranger with Natural combat style can get 2 claws. add various Alchemist methods to get more.

[Ravens_cry]

level 2 of a Ranger with Natural combat style can get 2 claws. add various Alchemist methods to get more.
Yeah, I know, I mentioned that in the OP, but thanks. :)

[grarrrg]

Hmmm...
(for the moment we will pretend that Summoner/Synthesist does NOT exist, it'd be too easy)
Natural Attack rules for reference (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules#TOC-Natural-Attacks)

There are LOTS of ways to get Bite and Claw attacks (Rage Powers, Bloodlines, Mutagens, etc...), but we'll put an emphasis on "permanent".

Half-Orc (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-orc) can either trade away Ferocity for a Bite attack, or take the feat Razortusk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/razortusk).

2 levels of Ranger for Aspect of the Beast (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/aspect-of-the-beast) feat for Claw attacks.

I can easily see the Alchemist's Tentacle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/tentacle-ex) being considered a Secondary attack (per general Natural Attack rules), that's another 2 levels (feel free to go Vivisectionist for the +1d6 Sneak).

1 OR 4 levels of White-Haired Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch) get a "Hair" attack, 1d4 Primary attack. Witches only have 1/2 Bab so minimal levels are encouraged, 1 level would be fine, but the bonuses for going to 4th are tasty. At 4th the hair gains Reach, and on a successful hit you can make a Free (Swift?) Trip attempt.


Spells could help too. Rangers can (eventually) cast Strong Jaw (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/strong-jaw) *coughwandcough* which gives TWO effective Size increases for Natural Attack damage. Alchemist/Witch can cast Enlarge Person (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/enlarge-person) for +2 Str and a Size increase. Both would bump all our 1d4 attacks up to 2d6!


So at level 5, Ranger 2/Alchemist 2/Witch 1, with a Full Attack we have:
+4 Bab (fractional)
Bite 1d4+Str
x2 Claws 1d4+Str
Hair 1d4+Int
Tentacle 1d4+1/2Str, -5 to-hit
:smalleek:

PLEASE tell me I missed something :smallamused:

[Ravens_cry]

The trouble is, by likely RAI (confirmed by James Jacobs (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=361?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#18012)) and probably RAW, you can't get more natural attack than you have appropriate limbs or, in the case of bite attacks, mandibles.
Still, I like the Strong Jaw/Enlarge Person Idea. Combine with Improved Natural attack, and my natural attacks count as a Colossal creature for base damage.
I like the White Haired witch dip idea, I had forgotten about that variant.

[Larpus]

The thing about the Tentacle and Vestigial Arm discoveries is that they don't grant extra actions, as in the sense of "even though you have more arms, it's as if you didn't have them".

Silly, I know (though understandable from a balancing standing point but silly again when you look at the Eidolon).

Which this all amounts to is this: even if you have 5 limbs (2 normal arms, 2 vestigial and a tentacle), it still counts as if you had only 2. Meaning that regardless of how many claws, weapons, whatevers you have, only 2 can attack on a single full-attack routine.

The only ways I can legally see to make use of them (though still pending DM approval) is to 2-hand a weapon (using one extra limb for the 2-handing part) and/or holding a shield with the limb.

By the way, don't think it's ever stated, but I believe you can indeed attach an extra pair of claws to your vestigial arms, don't see anything wrong there, after all you qualify for "have as many body parts as natural weapons being attached to them".

[grarrrg]

The thing about the Tentacle and Vestigial Arm discoveries is that they don't grant extra actions, as in the sense of "even though you have more arms, it's as if you didn't have them".

I (begrudgingly) agree with you on the Vestigial Arm ruling.
But "Tentacle" is a fairly common type of Secondary Natural Attack, I know it is not specifically called out as such in the "Tentacle Discovery" description, but it is an easy enough thing to get your DM to allow it to function as a normal Natural Attack (which it should be anyway, but...).

Also, in my proposed build the Alchemist levels are the least necessary. 1 lost Bab, redundant spells (Witch levels), and it only gives one secondary attack.


The trouble is, by likely RAI (confirmed by James Jacobs (http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2u4o&page=361?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#18012)) and probably RAW, you can't get more natural attack than you have appropriate limbs or, in the case of bite attacks, mandibles.

Not a problem, with what I've got so far.
Claws, 1 per hand.
Bite, mouth.
Tentacle, wherever it pops out from... I'm thinking lower back so it looks like a tail.
Hair, head/face/armpits, doesn't really matter, and it's definitely the most supernatural of the group so it can go (almost) anywhere really.


I'm thinking to finish the build Barbarian is the best option. Totem Warrior is MANDATORY, other Archetypes are optional (advise against Savage though, as it's Natural Armor does NOT stack with Beast Totem Natural Armor).
Beast Totem, Lesser (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-lesser-su) bumps our base Claws up a size (only while Raging) , but more importantly is necessary for:
Beast Totem, Greater (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/beast-totem-greater-su) gives Pounce, bumps the Claws ANOTHER size, and gives them x3 on a Critical.
Elemental Rage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/elemental-rage-su) gives all of our attacks +1d6 Elemental damage.
And Fiend Totem, Lesser (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/fiend-totem-lesser-su) gives a Gore attacks (Primary, 1d8).

Altogether that requires at least 6 Rage Powers, and at least 10 levels of Barbarian (can take feat 'Extra Rage Power' if necessary, but we still have levels to play with). May as well go ahead and do Barbarian 11 to net Greater Rage

Build is now
Half-Orc w/Toothy alternate Racial Trait
Ranger (archetype?) 2/Alchemist (Vivisectionist) 2/Witch (White-Haired) 4/Barbarian (Totem + ??) 11
Total level of 18, 15 Bab
Primary attacks:
Bite, 1d4+Str
x2 Claws 1d4+Str (1d8+Str, 20x3 when Raging)
Hair 1d4+Int
Gore 1d8+Str (only while Raging)
Secondary: Tentacle 1d4+1/2Str
All attacks have +1d6 [element] damage
Improved Natural Attack (Claws, 1d6 normal, 2d6 w/Rage)
Improved Critical (Claws)
Extra Rage Power (pending)

At least 1 level left to mess with, possibly drop Alchemist from the build as it doesn't add much. Can also drop Witch down to 1, but I like having a Reach attack.
I don't recommend Improved Natural Attack/Critical for any of our other attacks, mainly because we have 2 Claws, so the benefits are doubled compared to anything else.
Amulet of Mighty Fists is a given.

[Taelas]

You do realize that vestigial arms aren't actually capable of doing anything, right? They literally don't function, or they wouldn't be vestigial.

[grarrrg]

You do realize that vestigial arms aren't actually capable of doing anything, right? They literally don't function, or they wouldn't be vestigial.

First off, it's been proven time and time again that 3.PF writers do not own dictionaries. They just pick words that sound cool.

Secondly, you CAN use them for stuff, just so long as you aren't using your OTHER arms at the same time... So when using your "extra" arms, your "normal" arms hang uselessly at your side.
(I'll stop here before I get started on my "vestigial arm design" rant)

[stack]

They can be useful. Holding potions, shields, reach weapons, etc. Just not as useful as if they granted extra attacks.

Regarding the barbarian-heavy build, I believe the whole purpose was landing more sneak attacks, so only having 1d6 SA misses the point.

[Taelas]

First off, it's been proven time and time again that 3.PF writers do not own dictionaries. They just pick words that sound cool.

Secondly, you CAN use them for stuff, just so long as you aren't using your OTHER arms at the same time... So when using your "extra" arms, your "normal" arms hang uselessly at your side.
(I'll stop here before I get started on my "vestigial arm design" rant)

Reading the entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/discoveries/paizo---alchemist-discoveries/vestigial-arm-ex) for the Vestigial Arm discovery, you're right; there's absolutely no reason why they call this 'vestigial'. They should at least get a hold of a dictionary...

That said, nothing here says you can't use the extra arm while using the normal arms. In fact, by linking it to Two-Weapon Fighting, they open up the possibility of Multi-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat); the requirement is three or more hands, and it specifically replaces Two-Weapon Fighting for these creatures.

Of course, that is rather outside the scope of the thread, seeing as it has nothing to do with natural attacks, but I see no reason for anything which grants additional claw or slam attacks to not function for the extra arm, as long as it isn't limited to two in number.

[grarrrg]

Regarding the barbarian-heavy build, I believe the whole purpose was landing more sneak attacks, so only having 1d6 SA misses the point.

Fine Mr. Picky...
Vivisectionist Alchemist 2 stays, as does Ranger 2 and Witch 1.
This gives the most Natural Attacks for the lowest level investment. Still Half-Orc with Toothy.
May as well go Trapper Ranger to gain Trapfinding, then we don't feel so bad trading it away for a Rogue Archetype.

I'm thinking at least 10 levels of Rogue
There are two Rogue Talents we should look at for this build, Powerful Sneak (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-talents/powerful-sneak-ex) and Deadly Sneak (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/paizo---rogue-advanced-talents/deadly-sneak-ex).
All of our attacks are -2 to-hit, but all of our Sneak dice treat 1's & 2's as 3's instead. With 4 Primary Natural attacks we can (probably) afford the loss in accuracy.

Alchemist 2/Ranger 2/Witch 1/Rogue 10 has 11 Bab (Fractional, technically 11.5, 10 otherwise)
Also has 6d6 Sneak dice, 1 more level of either Alchemist or Rogue will bump it to 7d6.

With 5 levels left there are a variety of options.
More Rogue/Vivisectionist.

We can add some levels of Barbarian back in, taking Lesser Fiend totem for the Gore attack, and the Str bonus from Rage is really helpful with FIVE attacks at Full Bab.

Pain Taster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pain-taster) is also a ... tasty ... option.
It has Full Bab, and the Cruelty ability functions like Sneak attack, but only for Slashing weapons (Bite & Claws, Hair does not have a listed damage type). It also has Uncanny Dodge, so we 'could' trade away the Rogue Uncanny Dodge for another Archtype if desired.

[stack]

If you use feral mutagen, why bother with toothy?

[Ravens_cry]

If you use feral mutagen, why bother with toothy?
Same reason I want Ranger 2. I can't be chugging the mutagen all the time.
Wow, those powers are so very worth it considering you can make a dandy two weapon rogue and the negatives are typical for two weapon fighting.
Thank you everyone for all your help so far. :)

[Larpus]

I (begrudgingly) agree with you on the Vestigial Arm ruling.
But "Tentacle" is a fairly common type of Secondary Natural Attack, I know it is not specifically called out as such in the "Tentacle Discovery" description, but it is an easy enough thing to get your DM to allow it to function as a normal Natural Attack (which it should be anyway, but...).
Hate the message, not the messenger...

But I agree with you, don't know why they went so far as to make these extra limbs not all that great. The only really troublesome outcome of more limbs is effectively doubling the amount of bombs you throw a round and, while that would be indeed troublesome, the line "while the extra arms function just like yours, they lack that extra bit of fine-precision needed to make bombs, so they don't increase the amount of bombs you can throw in a round" would be better.

[grarrrg]

the line "while the extra arms function just like yours, they lack that extra bit of fine-precision needed to make bombs, so they don't increase the amount of bombs you can throw in a round" would be better.

Actually, as written/according to the Designer, they can be used for anything/everything, just NOT at the same time as your other arms. The designer has basically said 'doesn't matter how many (vestigial) arms you have, you can only use 2 Arms per round'.
So you CAN use them to make Bombs, swing a Sword, etc... just NOT at the same time as 2 or more of your other arms.

It would have been SOOO much simpler to just have Vestigial Arm read as
"it can hold stuff, but lacks any/all ability to do anything other than hold stuff"
OR
"you can retrieve an Item as a Swift action, or Drink a Potion as a Move action, if you have taken Vestigial Arm twice, it becomes retrieve as a Free Action (limit once per round), and Drink as a Swift"

Either of those would be MUCH more straight forward in what they actually CAN do, and would function virtually the same as Vestigial Arm can right now.

[Larpus]

Actually, as written/according to the Designer, they can be used for anything/everything, just NOT at the same time as your other arms. The designer has basically said 'doesn't matter how many (vestigial) arms you have, you can only use 2 Arms per round'.
So you CAN use them to make Bombs, swing a Sword, etc... just NOT at the same time as 2 or more of your other arms.

It would have been SOOO much simpler to just have Vestigial Arm read as
"it can hold stuff, but lacks any/all ability to do anything other than hold stuff"
OR
"you can retrieve an Item as a Swift action, or Drink a Potion as a Move action, if you have taken Vestigial Arm twice, it becomes retrieve as a Free Action (limit once per round), and Drink as a Swift"

Either of those would be MUCH more straight forward in what they actually CAN do, and would function virtually the same as Vestigial Arm can right now.
Indeed, though I've still haven't found anything that would be "too op" (that a Synthesist can't do as well or better, mind you) to justify not having the extra limbs as fully functional, as I mentioned, the only thing I could think of as worthy of worry is doubling the amount of bombs in a round.

I just got a flash: are there any rules that prevent you from holding a weapon with more than two hands? Or maybe use a big weapon with 3 arms...doesn't look all that powerful, but sounds ridiculous enough to be interesting.