Justice League Assemble....

[Devonix]

Ok to help spare derailing the Avengers thread with DC discussion here's a thread to come to.

Should we get a Justice League movie and then move onto more single movies or the other way like in Marvel.

I actually think characters like Aquaman would do better being intruduced in a JLA movie where people can see him being awesome and then get interest grown up in a single movie. Since no one would go see a solo Aquaman movie without already being prepared for his awesome.

[Dr.Epic]

At the end of Dark Knight Rises, there'll be a post credit scene of Bruce Wayne in his mansion. Then, a figure emerges from the darkness and says "I'm Clark Kent. I'm here to talk to you about the Justice League of America."

:smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

I think at the least we would need to reboot superman and batman once again. They are the two big name icons that would probably be the biggest draws to a justice league film. Wonder Woman might be a challenge. Again we would probably have to see some sort of retcon of her origin and how she got involved with "mans world" As if I recall correctly, there have been many different versions going as far back as a world war 2 pilot crashing on themescrya and she argues to let him go and leaves with him to fight nazis or something.

The superheros or heroines can be subject to change as to who gets their own movie, and who gets to tag along with someone elses. As an example, we bring in John Stewart as our Green Lantern to start that character off fresh and ignore the other guy. Since green lanterns do alot of space travel, we could have a hawkgirl centered story in with him. That way we get two heroes for the cost of one movie. Others could get recruited during the big justice league film itself.

As you said Devo, after the big movie comes out, they can figure out which heroes seem to have the most demand for an origin movie or some other stand alone adventure and go from there. It would be nice to have other dc films than batman and superman. If they do it right, we could wind up with a few new superhero movie staple characters, to avoid grinding the two current big names into boredom with film after film.

[Zevox]

Well, who would we need for that?

Superman - Has had movies, but not a recent one, and I think the last one wasn't all that well-recieved (though that could be my imperfect memory, since I have not ever paid attention to his movies).

Batman - Has had plenty of movies, the most recent very well-recieved, with another due this year. I'd say he's set.

Wonder Woman - Has not had a movie, at least not in recent memory.

Green Lantern - Had a movie recently, but it was poorly received. The sequel that was planned might help, if it happens, or they could perhaps do a reboot, maybe with a different GL (John, Kyle, or Guy instead of Hal).

The Flash - Has not had a movie.

Plus you'd probably want at least one of Aquaman, the Martian Manhunter, or Hawkman/girl. Or maybe a slightly less well-known Justice League member like Firestorm or Green Arrow, or perhaps Cyborg since he's in the current comics iteration of the League.

But yeah, even among the big five, they've got work to do before they can expect something like a Justice League movie to pay off I think. If nothing else they'd need a successful Superman movie and one for at least one of the other three not-Supes not-Bats major members to garner interest I think.

Zevox

[leafman]

While I think doing a movie each for all 7 founding JL members might be overkill, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Aquaman really need strong films to bring them into the public eye so they won't be over shadowed by the Big Three in a JL movie. Plus, if they get movies, their origins can be explained there instead of being shoehorned into the main event.

[Thrawn183]

I'd actually just like to see a Flash movie. I've never seen a Superman movie I've liked, and while the new Batman movies are amazing, I won't want to see another for quite some time after this last one comes out.

[kpenguin]

At the end of Dark Knight Rises, there'll be a post credit scene of Bruce Wayne in his mansion. Then, a figure emerges from the darkness and says "I'm Clark Kent. I'm here to talk to you about the Justice League of America."

:smallbiggrin:

In an alternate universe where the Justice League movie is the most anticipated film of the summer... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyNXnuHNF8k)

[Sunken Valley]

You guys do know there is going to be a new Superman film? It is called "Man of Steel". Directed by Zack Snyder. Produced by Christopher Nolan. Coming 2013.

[Comet]

I've always liked the Justice League as this distant bunch of god-like figures.

Maybe someone could do a new Green Lantern movie with Kyle Rayner as the lantern. Establish him as an everyman, newbie sort of character and then drag him into a Justice League film and introduce the rest of the league through his eyes as the film goes on? The Justice League members don't exactly have complex personalities so I think it could work.

Could work with other characters, too, but I think a new attempt at a Green Lantern film would be a good thing in general and Rayner seems like the sort of lantern that would be easy for the audience to relate to.

[Traab]

Well, who would we need for that?

Superman - Has had movies, but not a recent one, and I think the last one wasn't all that well-recieved (though that could be my imperfect memory, since I have not ever paid attention to his movies).

Batman - Has had plenty of movies, the most recent very well-recieved, with another due this year. I'd say he's set.

Wonder Woman - Has not had a movie, at least not in recent memory.

Green Lantern - Had a movie recently, but it was poorly received. The sequel that was planned might help, if it happens, or they could perhaps do a reboot, maybe with a different GL (John, Kyle, or Guy instead of Hal).

The Flash - Has not had a movie.

Plus you'd probably want at least one of Aquaman, the Martian Manhunter, or Hawkman/girl. Or maybe a slightly less well-known Justice League member like Firestorm or Green Arrow, or perhaps Cyborg since he's in the current comics iteration of the League.

But yeah, even among the big five, they've got work to do before they can expect something like a Justice League movie to pay off I think. If nothing else they'd need a successful Superman movie and one for at least one of the other three not-Supes not-Bats major members to garner interest I think.

Zevox

Yeah, but the problem with the current batman/superman movies is, there isnt anything to tie them together into a justice league film. I mean, I dont think I can see THIS incarnation of batman being willing to add the rest of the world into his sphere of things he has to take care of. And the last superman movie sucked, so rebooting it into something better would be a good idea anyway. But I do agree that the lesser known but still necessary members of the main league should get their own origin movies so they dont feel tacked on. Its why I suggested the combo john stewart/hawkgirl film. You could cover them both in one film and do an excellent job of establishing their histories, give them a reason to be on earth, and even establish their relationship, all before the main event movie so it can concentrate on that instead of fleshing out everyone but batman/superman's character.

[Devonix]

Don't see them doing a John Stewart Hawkgirl movie. Other than Justice League cartoon and really only two seasons of that, the two have never really interacted in comics and Hawkgirl isn't a mainstay of the League

[DiscipleofBob]

They'd need to reboot pretty much everyone. I actually recently watched the Green Lantern movie on Netflix, and it was good enough that they could keep Ryan Reynolds as Hal Jordan and I'd be happy.

Superman they'd need to reboot, but I understand that something's in the works right now so we'll see.

As much as I love the Nolanverse Batman, I just don't think he'd work for a Justice League movie. The reason the Nolanverse works is because that Batman is grounded in enough reality that suddenly introducing aliens and amazons would just be out of place.

Wonder Woman could be done really well if someone just say down and wrote her. Probably very similar to the Thor movie.

I'd want to see a well-done Aquaman and Flash movie as well.

Either way, Green Arrow would have to be in the final incarnation of the League at the least. And Martian Manhunter would be difficult, but maybe they could introduce him in the actual Justice League movie itself as they did with animated version.

[Traab]

Don't see them doing a John Stewart Hawkgirl movie. Other than Justice League cartoon and really only two seasons of that, the two have never really interacted in comics and Hawkgirl isn't a mainstay of the League

Ok, its all good, I was just offering a suggestion as to how you could combine a couple of characters into a single origin film, im sure there are plenty of other ways. As an example, superman and aquaman. During the reboot of superman, his adventure has him dealing with a threat that involves getting help from aquaman, and that way we get his backstory and establish a rapport between them instead of wasting a half hour doing that in the main event. Or make up a wonder woman adventure where she leaves themescrya chasing down a rogue amazon who winds up in gotham. Basically, give us enough of a connection between heroes so it makes sense that they would team up when they need to.

[shadow_archmagi]

In an alternate universe where the Justice League movie is the most anticipated film of the summer... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyNXnuHNF8k)

In an alternate universe where The Avengers came out thirty four years earlier... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0jBF912xYY)

[Soras Teva Gee]

The only reason we don't have a Justice League movie is someone on the Warner Brothers end is so incompetant it goes from being sad to hilarious then back round again at least three times.

And I challenge there needs to be any set-up. Go watch the beginning of the DCAU series. Only Supes and Bats had been introduced worth much of anything. Flash had all of one episode in S:TAS and it was different GL. Yet everyone gets perfectly serviceable introductions for a coherent story of movie length.

[DiscipleofBob]

The only reason we don't have a Justice League movie is someone on the Warner Brothers end is so incompetant it goes from being sad to hilarious then back round again at least three times.

And I challenge there needs to be any set-up. Go watch the beginning of the DCAU series. Only Supes and Bats had been introduced worth much of anything. Flash had all of one episode in S:TAS and it was different GL. Yet everyone gets perfectly serviceable introductions for a coherent story of movie length.

I have to disagree in that the Animated Series has a much different dynamic than a big-screen live action blockbuster.

In order for a full movie version to work, there needs to be a setup.

You can't just have a guy in red spandex show up and say "Sup, guys, I'm the Flash. I tried showing you my origin story but it lasted less than a frame because I'm just that fast." along with an amazon, Robin Hood, a guy in a batsuit, etcetera and expect it to work.

The Avengers worked because they started the setup process over Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, and the Hulk movies, and even then it's kind of a miracle that the Avengers movie worked at all.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You can't just have a guy in red spandex show up and say "Sup, guys, I'm the Flash. I tried showing you my origin story but it lasted less than a frame because I'm just that fast." along with an amazon, Robin Hood, a guy in a batsuit, etcetera and expect it to work.

That's just it, you don't really need an origin story. We've all just been sold on this idea, and nobody challenges it.

However there IS evidence to the contrary. Take The Incredible Hulk, it barely touches on the matter in the credits and its rather evidently not giving a crap about Ang Lee's venture. Watchmen just runs with the idea of them. And in the Avengers we have Hawkeye, Black Widow, and Nick Fury all basically running without it. Why don't they need origins? Because they don't have superpowers that need explaining? Screw that its a mere detail at this point.

People aren't ignorant of how superheroes work in general these days, the details of any particular hero are just that... details. Get the right plot and you don't need an origin story you just need an introduction or seven, which is different.

[Traab]

Except iron man had an origin story, hulk had an origin story, thor had an origin story, cap had an origin story. Not everyone needs one, but you have to cover at least some of the backstories and justifications for the big join up before the actual join up or else you waste too much time establishing why the hell these half dozen lone wolves should suddenly agree to work together. They dont all need one, but enough of them do to keep the grand finale of a film moving along. Otherwise they might as well just set it up as the justice league trilogy and have the first film be setting them up and establishing who the enemy is, the second film is the real meat of the war, and the third is the grand resolution.

[DiscipleofBob]

That's just it, you don't really need an origin story. We've all just been sold on this idea, and nobody challenges it.

However there IS evidence to the contrary. Take The Incredible Hulk, it barely touches on the matter in the credits and its rather evidently not giving a crap about Ang Lee's venture. Watchmen just runs with the idea of them. And in the Avengers we have Hawkeye, Black Widow, and Nick Fury all basically running without it. Why don't they need origins? Because they don't have superpowers that need explaining? Screw that its a mere detail at this point.

People aren't ignorant of how superheroes work in general these days, the details of any particular hero are just that... details. Get the right plot and you don't need an origin story you just need an introduction or seven, which is different.

We comic fans would probably be just fine sure, but a movie needs to keep in mind a larger audience.

The Hulk's origin movie was meant to be Edward Norton's movie (or perhaps more accurately the Avengers tie-in movie) which tied in to the Ang Lee movie without directly acknowledging it. Black Widow we had introduced in Iron Man 2, and Hawkeye we had introduced in Thor. We don't need much origin story from them other than "We're secret agents. We're awesome. Deal with it." If Thor, Cap, and Iron Man hadn't had their origin movies and showed up in full bright red and blue costumes, we wouldn't have gotten the necessary feel for the characters that let them shine in the Avengers movie. It would break a lot of suspension of disbelief.

And that's another thing, it's not just about the original comic characters, we need to grow used to the actors playing the characters so we can believe that Robert Downey Jr. IS Iron Man and Chris Evans IS Captain America (and definitely not Human Torch). The only reason Hulk doesn't fall under this is because during all the important parts he's a big, green CGI guy.

It works in the animated series because the audience is either comprised of children or adults who are already at least geeky enough to watch animated superheroes (not that that is in any way, shape or form a bad thing).

Watchmen works completely differently because it's a deconstruction of the superhero genre, and separate from a movie like Avengers or Nolan's Batman.

[Xondoure]

They'd need to reboot pretty much everyone. I actually recently watched the Green Lantern movie on Netflix, and it was good enough that they could keep Ryan Reynolds as Hal Jordan and I'd be happy.

Superman they'd need to reboot, but I understand that something's in the works right now so we'll see.

As much as I love the Nolanverse Batman, I just don't think he'd work for a Justice League movie. The reason the Nolanverse works is because that Batman is grounded in enough reality that suddenly introducing aliens and amazons would just be out of place.

Wonder Woman could be done really well if someone just say down and wrote her. Probably very similar to the Thor movie.

I'd want to see a well-done Aquaman and Flash movie as well.

Either way, Green Arrow would have to be in the final incarnation of the League at the least. And Martian Manhunter would be difficult, but maybe they could introduce him in the actual Justice League movie itself as they did with animated version.

I don't see them using Green Arrow. At least not anytime soon. They would get accused of adding in a token archer just to copy the Avengers (however unfair that might be.)

[DiscipleofBob]

I don't see them using Green Arrow. At least not anytime soon. They would get accused of adding in a token archer just to copy the Avengers (however unfair that might be.)

A very unfortunate, if accurate, point indeed.

[Fragenstein]

Wonder Woman, Flash and Aquaman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman_in_other_media#Live_action_film) are all supposed to be in development.

They were working on a JLA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_League#In_other_media) film that was shelved in 2008 and not officially cancelled until 2010. Jeff Robinov has stated that he plans on getting one out there, however. Who knows if he'll manage to get it done.

Holy frag on a cracker... Lobo (http://io9.com/5903900/the-lobo-movie-is-doomed)is getting a 2013 movie? Seriously? On the plus side, I kind of liked Kitty Galore...

[Soras Teva Gee]

We comic fans would probably be just fine sure, but a movie needs to keep in mind a larger audience.

At this point I think we can establish everyone's familiar enough with comics/superhero tropes to follow along. Or y'know just don't care.

Remember it wasn't that long ago that people said a team-up like the Avengers wouldn't work because the public couldn't follow it without being comic nerds. That was wrong. Hell let's not forget the whole genre was revived by a team movie right off the bat that used nothing more then Stan Lee's lazy excuse to not explain superpowers.


The Hulk's origin movie was meant to be Edward Norton's movie (or perhaps more accurately the Avengers tie-in movie) which tied in to the Ang Lee movie without directly acknowledging it.

Yet despite being a reboot it didn't bother with the origin consuming the whole movie.


Black Widow we had introduced in Iron Man 2, and Hawkeye we had introduced in Thor. We don't need much origin story from them other than "We're secret agents. We're awesome. Deal with it." If Thor, Cap, and Iron Man hadn't had their origin movies and showed up in full bright red and blue costumes, we wouldn't have gotten the necessary feel for the characters that let them shine in the Avengers movie. It would break a lot of suspension of disbelief.

Stop and think for a second. The DC equivalentis Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. And do you seriously think there is someone not familiar with Superman and Batman, two of the most iconic characters ever. So abbreviate Diana's identity and departure as directly inspired by the crisis and you're set.

I think everyone is underestimating the public ability to suspend disbelief.



And that's another thing, it's not just about the original comic characters, we need to grow used to the actors playing the characters so we can believe that Robert Downey Jr. IS Iron Man and Chris Evans IS Captain America (and definitely not Human Torch). The only reason Hulk doesn't fall under this is because during all the important parts he's a big, green CGI guy.

Which is why Mark Ruffalo did such a good job they are suddenly talking a Hulk 2 again. Establishing a character takes a scene not a whole movie... hell that's how it works in most films.


It works in the animated series because the audience is either comprised of children or adults who are already at least geeky enough to watch animated superheroes (not that that is in any way, shape or form a bad thing).

Storytelling is universal.

Geek culture does not arise from any lack in the story but because people reject certain things as childish (which is in fact the most childish thing of all) or whatever. Something which the adding lackluster origin stories does not actually resolve.


Watchmen works completely differently because it's a deconstruction of the superhero genre, and separate from a movie like Avengers or Nolan's Batman.

You can't deconstruct what hasn't been constructed to begin with.

[Traab]

Stop and think for a second. The DC equivalentis Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. And do you seriously think there is someone not familiar with Superman and Batman, two of the most iconic characters ever. So abbreviate Diana's identity and departure as directly inspired by the crisis and you're set.

I think everyone is underestimating the public ability to suspend disbelief.

The problem with this is the current incarnations of both superman and batman are not really positioned well for a justice league movie. Even if they were, they would still need a connection that brings them together. You cant just toss out a single film and have it drag together a half dozen separate heroes who have never met before (in this version) and manage to form up a cohesive team and take down a threat that didnt exist until the movie itself came out. In the long run it would be better to reboot the various heroes again, and use these stand alone movies to build up interest in the big justice league crossover film. Its a gamble as if the stand alones dont make a big splash, noone will want to see the finale, but without that buildup, it wont have the same epic feeling to it.

Superman needs a return to his golden boy scout ultimate hero persona.

Batman needs to be altered so sci fi elements can actually be incorporated. Tossing the current batman into a world where he has to fight darkseid and parademons would be way to huge of a shift in how his world works. So we would need a film that covers say, a clayface style villain, or poison ivy from the animated series. Bad guys with unusual abilities that make it possible to stretch our suspension of disbelief when suddenly aliens start popping out of boom tubes shooting laser halberds at him.

Wonder Woman needs an intro. Its been so long since there was anything other than a comic on her that I doubt most people are even aware of what the current back story is for her. I know I damn sure dont know it. Last thing I remember is watching linda carter deflecting bullets with her bracelets.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Plot. I've said this pretty much since the issues came out -- the JLA movie needs to be a reworking of the Rage Of Angels storyline. The cartoon-verse did the white martians already, so we really can't rehash that again.

RE: Origins \ Prequels. I agree with the point that these aren't *required*, but I will insist that part of the reason Avengers succeeded was that it had them. On the other hand, you'd now risk the inevitable argument that you were copying what Marvel did...

I think the biggest danger here lies in viewing the individual films as "trying out" for a JLA movie. The Green Lantern movie, for example, was not the fault of the cast. It was the fault of the multiple scripts and poor editting/production.

I have to admit it would be tempting to spend the first hour/so of the film just having them interact without revealing them as the superheroes.

RE: Casting. Interesting note, the woman who plays Fury's right-hand in Avengers was Whedon's pick to play Wonder Woman. I wouldn't want to be the person at Warner right now responsible for Whedon not making that film, would you? Anyway...

[Devonix]

I'd love to see a Superman Batman movie and an Aquaman Wonderwoman movie.

Aquaman/Wonderwoman practically writes itself as a co star duo

Themescera= Technological and magically advanced Underwater ancient city
Atlantis= Technological and magically advanced Island ancient city

Aquaman= Warrior King with super strength and magic
Wonderwoman= Warrior Princess with superstrength and magic

Wonderwoman = Champion of Athena
Aquaman = Champion of Posideon


Would be fun having Ares start some mischief and Posideon sending Aquaman as his representative to Themescera and them being forced to accept his help in solving some problem due to being a visiting monarch as well as representative of another Greek god. Him and Diana but heads but through him she learns respect for men and he for their city and the surface world.

I know in some continuities he was raised on land but I prefer keeping him just dealing with Atlantis until being forced to deal with the rest of the world.

[Traab]

I'd love to see a Superman Batman movie and an Aquaman Wonderwoman movie.

Aquaman/Wonderwoman practically writes itself as a co star duo

Themescera= Technological and magically advanced Underwater ancient city
Atlantis= Technological and magically advanced Island ancient city

Aquaman= Warrior King with super strength and magic
Wonderwoman= Warrior Princess with superstrength and magic

Wonderwoman = Champion of Athena
Aquaman = Champion of Posideon


Would be fun having Ares start some mischief and Posideon sending Aquaman as his representative to Themescera and them being forced to accept his help in solving some problem due to being a visiting monarch as well as representative of another Greek god. Him and Diana but heads but through him she learns respect for men and he for their city and the surface world.

I know in some continuities he was raised on land but I prefer keeping him just dealing with Atlantis until being forced to deal with the rest of the world.

Wait what? I thought themescrya was an island, not an underwater city. And as for technologically advanced, arent they sword and spear using warriors or something?

[Devonix]

Wait what? I thought themescrya was an island, not an underwater city. And as for technologically advanced, arent they sword and spear using warriors or something?

Yeah I've got the Themescera and Atlantis one flipped.

Themescera is advanced though The Sword, spear and sandals stuff is just from tradition and what their society is based on. They do have lazers and healing beams and Invisible planes ect.

There have been plenty of stories of agencies wanting to get their hands on the advanced tech of Themescera which is another reason for the isolationism of the nation.

[Traab]

Yeah I've got the Themescera and Atlantis one flipped.

Themescera is advanced though The Sword, spear and sandals stuff is just from tradition and what their society is based on. They do have lazers and healing beams and Invisible planes ect.

I thought the healing beam was some sort of magical device, and the same for the invisible jet. But wonder woman was never my cup of tea as a comic, so i dunno.

[Devonix]

I thought the healing beam was some sort of magical device, and the same for the invisible jet. But wonder woman was never my cup of tea as a comic, so i dunno.

Yeah it's another thing that they both have in common. the Tech/Magic mix of the cultures plus isolationism lead people to try and steal stuff from them as well as fans getting confused about parts of their societies.

[Dr.Epic]

I think people would much rather see a Super Friends live-action movie.:smallwink:

[Barmoz]

The ironic part is, the perfect plotline for a JL movie would be almost identical to the Avenger's plot, except it actually took place in the Justice League comics over 30 years ago with the war between the martians and earth that I think introduced the Martian Manhunter, and simultaneously whiped out almost all martians. Forgive my ignorance on the details because even though I'm rapidly approaching 40, my only exposure to this storyline was in my uncle's comic collection at my grandparent's house as a very young child.

[Hopeless]

Me I'd go back to the basics, Oliver Queen provides the financial backing but doesn't become a member of the team.

He recruits the Martian Manhunter to serve as his recruiter and Jonn Jonzz recruits Barry Allen, Hal Jordan, Arthur Curry and Dinah Drake (not sure if i got her surname right!) to help him thwart an attempted invasion whose earlier effort was thwarted partly by Green Arrow but it resulted in the Martian Manhunter being sent to earth.

The alien race in question seeks to resolve who will become their new leader by having their challengers sent to earth using an artifical host to fight each other until only one remains standing, however the first four are defeated by one of the heroes during which they're helped by the Manhunter who recruits their help to fend off a fifth invader which is too much for them to face alone so they end up teaming up to defeat it.

The Manhunter invites them to meet his patron which leads to Oliver Queen recruiting them to help counter future invasions only to have the team head out to stop a crimewave at the hands of the Flash's rogue's gallery even as Queen and Manhunter discuss evidence of another potential threat a yellow ring wielding Lantern named Sinestro who they suspect set up the choice of earth as the alien's battlefield to get back at Jordan...

By the way the original JLA didn't include Batman, Superman nor Wonder Woman although Superman was instrumental in helping them defeat the fifth invader he turned down the invitation and Queen wa responsible for backing the JLA but his presence I don't believe was revealed for a while.

There was a tv movie of the JLA but they changed too much of their background to cover up the problems with the story.

That one had the Martian Manhunter as team leader, Guy Gardener before he hit his head as Green Lantern, The Atom, a somewhat perplexing non-police scientist Barry Allen, Fire who I think was close to what she was supposed to be and introduced Ice as a new hero who worked unknowingly for the Weather Wizard who was the villain as his weather control gadget gave her, her powers.

Liked the Gardener character mind you because he wasn't an arrogant ass so you might not, it felt like it could have worked if they hadn't hashed up the characters it was a pity retrospectively it would have been fine otherwise.

[leafman]

^ You're confusing the Justice League for the Justice Society of America. Golden Age (Society, Earth-2) vs. Silver Age (League, Earth-1). Supes and Bats were founders of the League (along with Flash, GL WW, MM and Aquaman) but only honorary members of the Society (because they had their own titles at the time).

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Quick point: in order for this to work, Batman would have to be rebooted. The Nolanverse Batman is 100% intended as a standalone story, and Nolan has stated multiple times that he intends to tell a finished story, to bring some sort of a conclusion. It's supposed to be a trilogy, and then no more.

[Traab]

Quick point: in order for this to work, Batman would have to be rebooted. The Nolanverse Batman is 100% intended as a standalone story, and Nolan has stated multiple times that he intends to tell a finished story, to bring some sort of a conclusion. It's supposed to be a trilogy, and then no more.

And even if it wasnt, it would take a fairly powerful departure from the focus of the nolanverse batman to make it possible for a justice league adventure to happen. There is no magical, alien, or mutation style event for him to work with, all his enemies are human, if crazy, so he isnt really equipped to handle the type of stuff that takes place in a justice league adventure without one hell of a move on his part.

[Xondoure]

And even if it wasnt, it would take a fairly powerful departure from the focus of the nolanverse batman to make it possible for a justice league adventure to happen. There is no magical, alien, or mutation style event for him to work with, all his enemies are human, if crazy, so he isnt really equipped to handle the type of stuff that takes place in a justice league adventure without one hell of a move on his part.

He has a hovercraft in the next film. Nolanverse has always been a departure from reality parading under the guise of realism. But I agree it would have to be rebooted.

[Tyndmyr]

That's just it, you don't really need an origin story. We've all just been sold on this idea, and nobody challenges it.

However there IS evidence to the contrary. Take The Incredible Hulk, it barely touches on the matter in the credits and its rather evidently not giving a crap about Ang Lee's venture. Watchmen just runs with the idea of them. And in the Avengers we have Hawkeye, Black Widow, and Nick Fury all basically running without it. Why don't they need origins? Because they don't have superpowers that need explaining? Screw that its a mere detail at this point.

People aren't ignorant of how superheroes work in general these days, the details of any particular hero are just that... details. Get the right plot and you don't need an origin story you just need an introduction or seven, which is different.

Dude, Watchmen is ALL origin stories.

All three of those chars in Avengers appeared in earlier movies. You have some additional backstory for BW in Avengers, too.

Hulk also had an origin story.

I agree that the origin story CAN be dispensable, but not in justice league, where there's a lot to accept already.

[Aotrs Commander]

I would question the absolute need for origin stories, like, at all. (Especially stuff like Batman or Spider-Man or Superman (et al), who's origin - if you really, really, really needed it, could be summed up in a paragraph.) Before the turn of the millenium, lots of stuff didn't make a big deal about origin stories, it started in media res.

When I were a lad, you mostly picked up things in the middle anyway; most shows had a very quick origin in the first episode, so if you missed that, no matter... I'm not sure MASK or Thunderbirds or He-Man, ever had "origin" stories, and in Centurions, ironically, the origin story was the last set of five episodes...! And Adam West Batman never seemed to have one, nor did the early Spider-Man cartoons (probably the 1970s ones) I saw as a kid...

So, no, I don't think you have to have a "this is how this started" when you can have a brief "this is how things are, let's get on with the plot..." A decent writer should be able to pull it off without.

(Now, I'm not saying that sometimes, it doesn't help, like with Avengers Assembled.)

You can't tell me movie-goers are more incapable of dealing with a brief intro than most cartoon audiences. When I started watching Justice League, I knew Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman, and the rest were pretty much blanks. That show introduced them all fine. I don't see why a movie couldn't do the same. Seriously, would Batman or Superman really need an introduction to what "this" Batman or Superman is? Pretty much everyone knows who they are...

One of the reason I only saw Batman Begins last year was because I really wasn't interested in seeing the origin story again (which is why I'm not too bothered about the upcoming Spider-Man reboot if they plan to tell that story AGAIN). Hell, now I really WILL catch flak for this, I liked Superman Returns far better than Batman Begins (which was okay, I guess) and one of the reasons was precisely that it didn't bother to tell origin story again. (Ditto with the Incredible Hulk, which cheerfully glossed over the origin story at the start, and could have skipped it for all that it was needed.)

(I can get behind a "bring new guy in as an audience stand-in to explain stuff too" no problem; that's a different kettle of fish.)

I just don't see what the sudden obession of "we must show the start" in recent years is... Telling and retelling the same story with a different spin gets old after the first couple of times. Audiences (children or otherwise) aren't that stupid that they absolutely have to have it laid out time after time...

[kpenguin]

I always liked the way All-Star Superman touched on the basics of the origin in a few panels before cutting to the story.

Doomed planet

Desperate scientists

Last hope

Kindly couple

SUPERMAN

[Aotrs Commander]

I always liked the way All-Star Superman touched on the basics of the origin in a few panels before cutting to the story.

Doomed planet

Desperate scientists

Last hope

Kindly couple

SUPERMAN

Yeah, that sounds about right!

[Dienekes]

I'm apparently an oddball. I hear a lot of folks complain about origin stories, and how they're not necessary most of the time. But I like them, I enjoy seeing different takes on how a hero got started. Batman: Year One is still one of my favorite Batman comics, and I think origin stories can give interesting details and character development.

To use Batman Begins, we are introduced to Bruce by seeing him in a prison, a mess, a man lost, without purpose. I found that interesting to see him develop into the actual Batman. I liked Bruce and Alfred discussing the granite of the helmet, and the logistics of being Batman. I liked the introduction of the tumbler. I liked seeing the police response to Batman's introduction and how a logical man like Gordon would ever make an alliance with a madman with a suit. How a relationship is introduced and established can color the rest of that relationship and I enjoy watching it.

Now are all origin stories good? No, of course not, Fantastic Four exists. Are origin stories the best? Well sometimes, in comicbook terms I do think the most fun Joker story I've read was The Laughing Man, which was a recreation of his origins. But the movie cannot just be the origins it has to focus on something much bigger. For Batman Begins the focus was on taking on the mob, and seeing what Crane is up to.

For the movies, honestly the best of the Marvel movies was Iron Man which was his origin story (Captain America comes close). Now maybe, the Avengers supplanted Iron Man, I'll have to come back to you guys in a few months to see if it holds up, but yeah, Iron Man's introduction was better than Iron Man II, Fantastic Four II, and the Hulk II.

So I will probably enjoy watching the origin stories. Now I won't be particularly heartbroken if they choose not to go this route. But watching their origins does not deter me as a viewer so long as those origins are interesting and fun to watch.

As a small aside: You liked Superman Returns? Wahhhhhh?????

[Aotrs Commander]

As a small aside: You liked Superman Returns? Wahhhhhh?????

Yes. I actually did. Now, I'll grant you, the whole "son" thing struck me as kinda crap, but not so much I couldn't compartmentalise it and enjoy the rest of it. The fact it was an almost-sequel to Superman 1 and 2 (in looks as well as plot-sorta) gave it a lot of bonus points for me. While I was never a big Superman guy, I did clearly remember those two from my childhood.

(I liked Green Lantern too, and that even after seeing the GL: First Flight cartoon a couple of days prior.

Also G.I. Joe 1 and the Star Wars prequels, so take from that what you will...!)

[KnightDisciple]

I think Justice League: Doom had a very good lineup (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter).

To be honest, as much as I like some of the lower-key members, at this point I want a truly Epic Justice League story.

I think we don't need Origin Stories in totality, though a couple "establishing" movies might be good.

DC really needs to follow Marvel's example and make a "DC Studios" soon...

Anyways, make the intro credits the "origin story" bit, and do the movie equivalent of "6 panel origins" or whatnot.

For villain, I personally vote Brainiac. Technically he's "Superman's", but he can easily be made to a larger threat.
For instance, first 1/3 or so of the film, maybe a bit less, is Superman being taken over by Brainiac while he establishes a foothold somewhere. Several heroes get together to stop Supes from being a mind-controlled enforcer, and from there the team starts to gel. They spend some time skirmishing with Brainiac before a plan is formed.

Climax has them all doing what they do best. Brainiac can have a bunch of robots that are strong enough that Supes, Wondy, and GL have to work to hold them off. Meanwhile, Flash, Manhunter, and Bats work to disable the ship/bomb/something, and then attack Brainiac's "core". MM has a telepathic uplink running, which lets them all coordinate. Batman provides the planning, but Flash is a scientist as well and helps provide insight, as does MM. The three of them together disarm the robot horde, then all 6 go after Brainiac. Who manages to get away in a smaller ship, making some vague statement about stuff being worse for Earth now.

Movie 2 could maybe be Mongol or Eclispo, and Movie 3 is Darkseid. Who must be voiced by Michael Ironside (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwLZu_X8YBE).

[Tyndmyr]

I think Justice League: Doom had a very good lineup (Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter).

That is a solid lineup. That said, I read comics decently, but am not hard core into them. I've got a shelf of them, and can converse decently about most chars. I am aware of who the martian manhunter is, and some of what he does(weak vs fire, etc), but haven't the faintest idea what his backstory is. Superman? Obviously, yeah. Batman, of course. Wonder Woman? Yeah, something, something amazonians, wild gender bias from ancient times. Everything I know about it, I hate. It basically needs to be redone.

You don't necessarily have to do a full movie for every single char, but you do need at least a justification for their powers and presence on the team, as well as for the villain(s).

We only have one popular char introed...batman, and that char is very much based in a mundane world, and the current series does not work in the context of a JL. At all.

You could, perhaps, use the superman redo as one intro, and presumably a batman reboot will happen eventually...but you need more than that. You need something to tie this all together if you want it to be a real movie. Avengers was challenging to pull off. Superhero team-up movies are not a well established genre. Just tossing all the big DC chars into a movie is very likely to just not work.

[DiscipleofBob]

You probably wouldn't need to do another origin movie for Superman and Batman, it's been done enough times. Hell, I wouldn't mind Christian Bale playing Batman again as long as it was made clear this wasn't the Nolanverse (but I guess that'd be fairly difficult).

Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Flash I think at least need their own movie first though.

[Xondoure]

I really don't find Nolan's batman that mundane. Just "gritty."

Still wouldn't work for crossovers though.

[Soras Teva Gee]

After some thought I have decided that a Justice League movie needs a setup afterall.

Before they make Justice League they need to make World's Finest.

First off people don't need to know Supes and Bats, they already do. You just need to establish heroes working together from the DCU end. Put the two together do the typical rocky start followed by working together an appreciate the other's talent, give them a threat to beat and then at the end put in signs there's an even bigger threat out there and have them conclude.... they're going to need help.

Then the League can be set up by well established characters and draw a clear distinction from the Marvel model by being true to the comics and having the League a true NGO.

[Hopeless]

After some thought I have decided that a Justice League movie needs a setup afterall.

Before they make Justice League they need to make World's Finest.

First off people don't need to know Supes and Bats, they already do. You just need to establish heroes working together from the DCU end. Put the two together do the typical rocky start followed by working together an appreciate the other's talent, give them a threat to beat and then at the end put in signs there's an even bigger threat out there and have them conclude.... they're going to need help.

Then the League can be set up by well established characters and draw a clear distinction from the Marvel model by being true to the comics and having the League a true NGO.

Oh for a moment there I thought you meant Power Girl and Huntress...:smallbiggrin:

[kpenguin]

More like Black Canary and Fire. Va-voom!

[thewillofbob]

Must include the Question. Maybe not in a major role, maybe just like Hawkeye was in Avengers, but he must be there.

And I mean Charles Victor Sage, too. None of that Renee Montoya rubbish.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Oh for a moment there I thought you meant Power Girl and Huntress...:smallbiggrin:

It makes me sad that you don't immediately associate the name of a SuperBat book that dates to the Golden Age with y'know Superman and Batman.

[ThePhantasm]

I don't think there will be a JL film in the near future. Nolan is in charge of the soon-to-be-complete Batman franchise (and is godfathering the reboot as well as a producer). He is also in charge of producing the new Superman film, Man of Steel, which may be a new franchise. He tends to like to keep the heroes independent, which I fully support so long as we are getting good stories from the properties.

That said, a JL series is fun to think about. I think overly trying to mimic Marvel's strategy would be a mistake. If I were making the JL series, I'd set it up as follows:

Film 1: Batman / Superman

Their friendship in many ways is a backbone to the League. In this film you could introduce Batman to the reality of working with other superheroes, so that it doesn't seem totally out of character for him to work with the JL all the time. Keep Batman a loner in general but open to team-ups when necessary. If the film is successful, we would know the General Audience will buy the idea that these two very different heroes can work together... then we proceed to

Film 2: Justice League

Founding members: Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, The Flash, Steel, and maybe Hawkgirl or Black Canary? No Green Lantern. Why? Well, while many of the heroes' powers are rather self-evident (Wonder Woman is an Amazon, the Flash was in a lab accident, etc.), GL's somewhat necessitates a backstory about the Corp and the rings and their weakness against yellow, etc. Too much backstory in an ensemble flick will bog it down. Plus, the last GL film left a bad taste in the mouths of much of the General Audience, I think.

Side-Films: In between the first and second JL movies, give each hero a spin-off film and begin introducing more heroes. At this point you introduce GL, so that he can be integrated into JL 2.

Villains: Early films would have villains like Vandal Savage, Cadmus, Luthor, etc. while later films would feature Brainiac and Darkseid.

[Devonix]

I don't think there will be a JL film in the near future. Nolan is in charge of the soon-to-be-complete Batman franchise (and is godfathering the reboot as well as a producer). He is also in charge of producing the new Superman film, Man of Steel, which may be a new franchise. He tends to like to keep the heroes independent, which I fully support so long as we are getting good stories from the properties.

That said, a JL series is fun to think about. I think overly trying to mimic Marvel's strategy would be a mistake. If I were making the JL series, I'd set it up as follows:

Film 1: Batman / Superman

Their friendship in many ways is a backbone to the League. In this film you could introduce Batman to the reality of working with other superheroes, so that it doesn't seem totally out of character for him to work with the JL all the time. Keep Batman a loner in general but open to team-ups when necessary. If the film is successful, we would know the General Audience will buy the idea that these two very different heroes can work together... then we proceed to

Film 2: Justice League

Founding members: Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, The Flash, Steel, and maybe Hawkgirl or Black Canary? No Green Lantern. Why? Well, while many of the heroes' powers are rather self-evident (Wonder Woman is an Amazon, the Flash was in a lab accident, etc.), GL's somewhat necessitates a backstory about the Corp and the rings and their weakness against yellow, etc. Too much backstory in an ensemble flick will bog it down. Plus, the last GL film left a bad taste in the mouths of much of the General Audience, I think.

Side-Films: In between the first and second JL movies, give each hero a spin-off film and begin introducing more heroes. At this point you introduce GL, so that he can be integrated into JL 2.

Villains: Early films would have villains like Vandal Savage, Cadmus, Luthor, etc. while later films would feature Brainiac and Darkseid.

Wy no Aquaman The league without Aquaman is like the league without Martian Manhunter. Just Wrong.

[ThePhantasm]

Wy no Aquaman The league without Aquaman is like the league without Martian Manhunter. Just Wrong.

I really like Aquaman, actually. I was just trying to keep the initial number down for the first film, but any of those heroes except the Big 3 could be replaced by him.