Most powerful Portfolio?

[Menteith]

I was having a discussion with a friend who was interested in high level play in D&D, and we got into deity killing, and how portfolio sense can throw a wrench in it. He asked me if it was actually possible for, say, Vecna to be caught unawares (given a portfolio of Intrigue and Hidden Knowledge) by an assassin, and I'm not sure that it is.

In a nutshell, are there more difficult portfolios to overcome than Vecna's (with regard to killing the god). If so, what are they, and why?

[LordBlades]

I was having a discussion with a friend who was interested in high level play in D&D, and we got into deity killing, and how portfolio sense can throw a wrench in it. He asked me if it was actually possible for, say, Vecna to be caught unawares (given a portfolio of Intrigue and Hidden Knowledge) by an assassin, and I'm not sure that it is.

In a nutshell, are there more difficult portfolios to overcome than Vecna's (with regard to killing the god). If so, what are they, and why?

I doubt you can just walk to a god and smack him over the face with a sword, killing one will likely involve some spells. A god of magic knows few weeks in advance what you will cast.

[Menteith]

I doubt you can just walk to a god and smack him over the face with a sword, killing one will likely involve some spells. A god of magic knows few weeks in advance what you will cast.

Sure, but there are ways to get around portfolio sense (magic) - changing spells into (Ex) abilities is a big one. But I can't find a decent way around something as vague as Intrigue or Hidden Knowledge.

[Dumbledore lives]

Well I can think of one way to avoid the god of secrets knowing, you simply proclaim your intentions to the world, shouting it through towns and cities. Your plan to kill him is not a secret, and he won't see it coming until your in his throne room or whatever his home base is. If you have enough confidence and enough openness I'm sure it would work. Note this post is only half joking.

[Othesemo]

Deicide?

Hey, if homebrew's allowed, I don't see why not.

[Shadowknight12]

You will never take down Ao. That's the guy with the most powerful portfolio.

[Hecuba]

In a nutshell, are there more difficult portfolios to overcome than Vecna's (with regard to killing the god). If so, what are they, and why?

If you actually want to kill the god in question, death is a no-start under all but the least generous (to the deity) readings of portfolio sense.

[LordBlades]

If you actually want to kill the god in question, death is a no-start under all but the least generous (to the deity) readings of portfolio sense.

Similar to this, but a bit more dependent of DM interpretation: if the DM considers preparing to attack and kill something as being related to war or battles (I personally would), then gods of War and Battle are also a no-go.

[AzazelSephiroth]

If they are an intermediate or better diety I am of the opinion it doesnt matter what the portfolio is... they know about their death ahead of time.

From the SRD:
Portfolio Sense
Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

It depends on your opinion of "any event that involves their portfolios" this line could be taken, and it is not much of a stretch, to mean that their death involves their portfolios no matter what that portfolio is and thus you can never surprise a diety you are trying to kill... unless you had no intention of killing them and it just suddenly happened... even then they know about it in the future... so:smalltongue:

[Scots Dragon]

It might be foreknowledge that they're powerless to prevent, however. Tying it in with various mythological themes of fate and inevitability versus free will.

In the Forgotten Realms, for instance, Bhaal knew full well in advance that he would be killed during the Time of Troubles, and then decided to put things into place that would allow for his eventual resurrection. Rather than, for instance, making pathways that would have allowed for him to avoid the inconvenience, he found another way out of it.

And thus we got two of the greatest computer roleplaying games ever made.

[Oliver Veyrac]

I have played deicide campaigns. Key things are for example Vecna:

Vecna doesn't know all secrets, he knows that someone has found a secret, but doesn't know what it is. Also Vecna has a specific means to kill him which is a secret. Rumor mill states to kill vecna one would need to possess both the eye and hand of vecna and the sword of Kas to kill him.

Deities have many limits in their abilities, and generally will only be killed should the DM allow them to be.

Most deities have avatars which have half the power of the deity. Possess mortal is one of the most powerful salient divine abilities, and never under-estimate divine blast and mass divine blast.

Vecna can be killed by casting spell flower, and transforming yourself into a sea urchin, start casting heal spells, and have the party fighter play baseball with you. All it takes is a ranged touch. All in all, there are many ways to defeat a deity, it just takes reason to do so.

Karsus in the forgotten realms attempted to take the divinity of a diety and turned into a statue. This is a deterrant example of deicide as well. Now as to what is the most powerful portfolios. Earth, Water, Air, Fire, Death, Life, War, Murder, Lies, Thieves, Healing, Sun, Night(Darkness), Cold, Shadows, and Magic are the largest ones. Exposing secrets hurts a god of secrets, just as peace hurts a god of war. Mystra for example, to defeat her you must use weapons of antimagic as well as mundane equipment. Her dying in her sleep by Cyric and Shar... Not so much. Shar and Selune became peaceful with the birth/creation of Mystryl. They were happy. All because Selune gave Chauntea fire. :P But enough boring stuff. Bottom line, deicide only if your deity allows it. If the DM allows it, it shall be so. Another way of getting divinity. Kill a dragon ascendant 12. They have divine rank 0. Also, you can kill an asura (they all have divine sparks they be from pathfinder). :)

[(Un)Inspired]

Killing a deity almost always involves playing with an incompetent DM.

As has been pointed out, intermediate deities can sense anything that pertains to their portfolio a week before it happens. Surely anything planned involving the deity of a portfolio is related to that portfolio.

This intermediate and above deities know that you're going to be planning to kill them at least a week before you begin to even plan to kill them.

If you kill a deities who has know that you wanted to kill him it's because he let you. The only way to get around this would be to subvert causality... But even doing so, the deity would know that you wee going to subvert reality to kill him before you actual went about subverting causality...

If there's magic that can do this I'm not aware of it... (That's not to say it doesn't exist).

That said campaigns that involve deity slaying are like playing a video game with a gameshark. Killing the hardest boss isn't actually an accomplishment if you could only do it by cheating to turn off the boss's strongest abilities (in this instance it would be the DM ignoring portfolio sense and letting adventurers kick the tar out of him like a chump).

[Red Fel]

Surely anything planned involving the deity of a portfolio is related to that portfolio.

This. A portfolio isn't just a toy in a deity's toybox; it is a fundamental component of that deity, and that deity in return is a fundamental underpinning of that portfolio. Vecna doesn't just control secrets, he is a secret; Mystra doesn't just manipulate magic, she is magic; and so on. An action against a deity will necessarily cause serious impact not only against the cosmology in general, but against the portfolio specifically. Thus, a deity will necessarily become aware of any actions to be taken against them with any chance of success, if for no other reason than that these actions pose a threat to that deity's portfolio (and thus trigger portfolio sense).

Now, in terms of raw power, I would argue that Death is a pretty clear winner here, for one reason: Life and Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath). Of relevant note:

If the deity chooses to kill a mortal, the ability works like the destruction spell, except that there is no material component or saving throw. The mortal cannot be raised or resurrected afterward, except by a deity of equal or higher rank using the Gift of Life or Life and Death salient divine ability.

Bolded for emphasis. This is the definition of a "no save, just die" ability. This is ultimate power. This is a deity who is able to literally reach out and just say "no" to any PC action against it. Further, if a deity has Death in its portfolio (with a power like this, they probably should) it does not need to rest after using this. That means they can take out the entire party, snuff, snuff, snuff, like so many candles. Dead and irretrievable.

That's power.

[docnessuno]

You will never take down Ao. That's the guy with the most powerful portfolio.

The Lady of Pain would like to have a word with you...


Bolded for emphasis. This is the definition of a "no save, just die" ability. This is ultimate power. This is a deity who is able to literally reach out and just say "no" to any PC action against it. Further, if a deity has Death in its portfolio (with a power like this, they probably should) it does not need to rest after using this. That means they can take out the entire party, snuff, snuff, snuff, like so many candles. Dead and irretrievable.

That's power.

Except that this whole divine ability is foiled by immunity to death effects, something not too hard to acquire.

[Brookshw]

I thought god killing threads were for Thursdays. Could have sworn.....

I feel like this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335334) has become relevant.

[Necroticplague]

Now, in terms of raw power, I would argue that Death is a pretty clear winner here, for one reason: Life and Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#lifeAndDeath). Of relevant note:


Bolded for emphasis. This is the definition of a "no save, just die" ability. This is ultimate power. This is a deity who is able to literally reach out and just say "no" to any PC action against it. Further, if a deity has Death in its portfolio (with a power like this, they probably should) it does not need to rest after using this. That means they can take out the entire party, snuff, snuff, snuff, like so many candles. Dead and irretrievable.

That's power.

Keep in mind that it only works on mortals, which in dnd terms is anything with a maximum age. So elans,warforged, people who are Married to History, and most outsiders, and many aberrations and magical beasts, and (I think) most true dragons can have it ping off them.

Although if you really wanna get deicidal, Your best bet is getting someone else. Specifically, god-killing is the exact job of pandorym. Just take a adamantine weapon, smash the crystal his mind is in, reunite it with his body, and then he'll fulfill a gods-only-know-how-old contract that involves slaughtering the whole pantheon. And possibly the rest of the plane afterwards, but one thing at a time, here.

[Elderand]

Keep in mind that it only works on mortals, which in dnd terms is anything with a maximum age. So elans,warforged, people who are Married to History, and most outsiders, and many aberrations and magical beasts, and (I think) most true dragons can have it ping off them.

Although if you really wanna get deicidal, Your best bet is getting someone else. Specifically, god-killing is the exact job of pandorym. Just take a adamantine weapon, smash the crystal his mind is in, reunite it with his body, and then he'll fulfill a gods-only-know-how-old contract that involves slaughtering the whole pantheon. And possibly the rest of the plane afterwards, but one thing at a time, here.

True dragons have a maximum age per draconomicon

[Khatoblepas]

Keep in mind that it only works on mortals, which in dnd terms is anything with a maximum age. So elans,warforged, people who are Married to History, and most outsiders, and many aberrations and magical beasts, and (I think) most true dragons can have it ping off them.

Deities and Demigods has a vocabulary it explains very clearly:


Mortal: A creature with no divine ranks. Mortals include humanoids, outsiders, and the other creatures in the Monster Manual.

It doesn't not define Mortal in the book.

Immortals aren't mortal, but they are still mortals.

And I'd think the hardest portfolio to deal with would probably be Boccob's foresight. Because even if you plan any plan, he'd know. Also, he's a deity, and a wizard, and a cleric. If there's anyone who'd know how to rebuild himself each day to deal with a problem, it's him.

[squiggit]

An action against a deity will necessarily cause serious impact not only against the cosmology in general, but against the portfolio specifically.
That doesn't really follow what's happened in the canon when deities were struck down. The sun didn't go out when Amaunator fell. The concept of justice didn't really change when Tyr was killed.


Thus, a deity will necessarily become aware of any actions to be taken against them with any chance of success, if for no other reason than that these actions pose a threat to that deity's portfolio (and thus trigger portfolio sense).
That's a possibility but seems a pretty lawyerly argument. At that point we might as well just call deities omniscient (which they aren't in this setting) if we're deciding things only tangentially related still count.