[3.5] Wild Shape and Dragon Disciple

[Ceaon]

Alternate shape states that you only remove the [Ex] special qualities not derived from class levels in your alternate form, and doesn't mention losing any [Ex] special attacks.

My question is: when a druid 9/bard 1/dragon disciple 10 uses his wildshape ability, will he...

- keep his Natural Armor Increase [Ex] ability?
- gain Claws and Bite (Ex) if the animal form doesn't already have them?
- gain the Ability Boosts (Ex) to Strength and Consitution? (I am pretty sure the boosts to Intelligence and Charisma are always active.)
- keep the Blindsense (Ex) ability?
- keep his Wings (Ex)?
- gain the low-light vision, 60-foot darkvision, immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, and immunity to the energy type used by his breath weapon of a level 10 dragon disciple?

[Darth Stabber]

You keep all of it, polymorph rules state you keep feats and class abilities, and dragon disciple gives you the abilities as opposed to just being a half dragon.

[Ceaon]

The rules confuse me for a wildshaping dragon disciple...


The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).

... because a dragon disciple's natural armor, natural weapons and movement mode are part of its special attacks derived from class levels or it special qualities, which he does not lose even though he loses them.

[Urpriest]

The rules confuse me for a wildshaping dragon disciple...



... because a dragon disciple's natural armor, natural weapons and movement mode are part of its special attacks derived from class levels or it special qualities, which he does not lose even though he loses them.

They lose such things in that they are features of the original form, but the new form also has levels in Dragon Disciple and thus also happens to have claws and such.

[Darth Stabber]

The rules confuse me for a wildshaping dragon disciple...



... because a dragon disciple's natural armor, natural weapons and movement mode are part of its special attacks derived from class levels or it special qualities, which he does not lose even though he loses them.

You keep all of your disciple stuff because theyare derived from class. If you were a half-dragon naturally you would lose all that stuff since it's not derived from class levels, however since dragon disciple gets them from class, they get the NA bonus, the claws, the breath weapon, the wings, and maybe even the physical attribute boosts (not sure about that one, some one else will have to clarify that point). So effectively you wild shape into half dragon critters instead of regular critters, a winged bear, an ape with claws, ect.

All that being said, it's not likely to be very good out side of gestalt, but in gestalt it's plausible. While you're at it might as well throw in some totemist too.

Druid20//totemistX/sorcerer1/DD10/totemist(9-X), could be fun.

[Ceaon]

I'm not going to play it; I just wanted to know how the rules interacted. Thanks all! Is there any consensus or clear reading on whether the Ability Boost (Ex) ability is kept in Wild Shape?

[Autopsibiofeeder]

I'm not going to play it; I just wanted to know how the rules interacted. Thanks all! Is there any consensus or clear reading on whether the Ability Boost (Ex) ability is kept in Wild Shape?

You struck a rare case here, so I am not sure a clear reading was ever made or a consensus was met, but following the logic from above, you would keep your ability boost as well. I mean, why not? Growing some extra muscle is not really different from growing sharp claws?

I actually deal with polymorph differently all-together (though it is not uncommon): if a measly Str6 human polymorphs into an ogre, he will have a measly Str16, but a strong Str16 human polymorphed into an ogre will become a strong Str26 ogre. Lose your racial modifiers and gain the assumed form's racial modifiers. In this case, since the half dragon abilities are gained through class, you can stack it as well.

What I like about this use of polymorph is that there's a good reason for the wizard to use that polymorph on the party meatshield, and that there's a good reason for druids, for example, to not completely dump their physical stats.

[Darth Stabber]

You struck a rare case here, so I am not sure a clear reading was ever made or a consensus was met, but following the logic from above, you would keep your ability boost as well. I mean, why not? Growing some extra muscle is not really different from growing sharp claws?

I actually deal with polymorph differently all-together (though it is not uncommon): if a measly Str6 human polymorphs into an ogre, he will have a measly Str16, but a strong Str16 human polymorphed into an ogre will become a strong Str26 ogre. Lose your racial modifiers and gain the assumed form's racial modifiers. In this case, since the half dragon abilities are gained through class, you can stack it as well.

What I like about this use of polymorph is that there's a good reason for the wizard to use that polymorph on the party meatshield, and that there's a good reason for druids, for example, to not completely dump their physical stats.
Similar to pathfinder in that respect? That is a nice-ish change in that system, keeping druids and transmuters on a more even playing field.