What is the least ability score dependent class

[Black_Zawisza]

As the title says - which classes are hurt the least by a lack of good ability modifiers? Certainly single-ability-dependent classes like wizards and psions qualify, but are there any classes where it really doesn't matter what your scores are?

[Yora]

Druid, I think. Dump everything into Wisdom and get whatever Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution you need through shapeshifting with Natural Spell.

[Duke of URL]

Believe it or not, Warlock. Especially if you choose invocations that don't rely on a save DC. Yes, a good CHA helps, if you're using invocations with saves. Yes, a good DEX helps, but you're making (ranged) touch attacks and you get 3/4 BAB. Etc.

Edit: Note that I'm approaching this from the standpoint of "can I play this class effectively with all 10's for ability scores"?

[erikun]

Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms is certainly up there. Warlock tends to work just fine regardless of what their ability scores are. I believe the Binder has some good abilities that don't relate to any ability score, either.

[Zaq]

A Warlock can be played with straight 3s. They obviously won't be very accurate, but neither will they be hopeless.

A Bard can also barely squeak by with straight 3s. The loss of skills and spells hurts, but Inspire Courage still works no matter what your stats are, even if you lose a few ways to optimize it.

[Feralventas]

Bard loses a lot for not having a decent charisma though, meaning IC would be all it has going for it along with 3/4's BAB.

Binder, like Warlock, can function with crap for stats. I believe there was a game a year ago in the RPthread forums that involved a bunch of oozes, and Binder was the main class available since they had less than 10 in most of their stats.

[Steward]

I think Warlock is a better example than Bard though. A Bard with a severe penalty to all stats is barely playable; a Warlock with the same stats could still contribute effectively, for the reason that His Grace mentioned -- you can avoid the saving-throw dependent abilities. It will still kind of suck but not as much as, say, a Wizard with 3 Int.

[Tvtyrant]

Artificers become effectively independent of stats after level 13. Even before that it depends on what items they pick, but at level 13 you can sling a UMD without any charisma at all (taking 10 on it).

[LansXero]

dragonfire adept too, no? :D

[Duke of URL]

dragonfire adept too, no? :D

Less so. You're still dependent on CON for your main class ability. However, like a Warlock, you can certainly focus on invocations that don't require saves.

[Toliudar]

But with DFA you're rarely making attack rolls of any kind, so hitting even touch AC becomes irrelevant.

[prufock]

Commoner! It's easy to be attribute-independent when you don't do anything that matters!

[Person_Man]

Any Tier 1-2 caster can get by with 19 in it's primary attribute, and mediocre or low scores in everything else. Just choose spells that don't have Save DC's.

Totemist or Dragonfire Adept are also good entries, as they can be Con SAD. Though you'll want the Con to be as high as possible, the don't need to invest in weaker Int, Wis, or Cha like Tier 1-2 casters.

Incarnate can also get by with Con 16ish (the highest you'll need to max out your essentia capacity) and dumped scores everywhere else.

[Andorax]

Wildshape Ranger was already mentioned, but I'd have to put my own agreement in on it.

Mentals don't really matter...physicals are never your own.

[Cor1]

Psion Egoist.

Int for everything, Metamorphosis for everything else.

[Deox]

As has been mentioned, Warlock and Binder can be utilized regardless of ability scores.

[Zaq]

I'm having a hard time seeing what the Binder is going to do with straight 3s, honestly. I understand that you're still going to get the powers even if you make a poor pact, but any ability that allows a saving throw is going to be useless, and most of the abilities that don't require a roll at all are just self-buffing stuff, which doesn't seem like you'd be contributing even as much as a Warlock would. Once Zceryll hits the field, of course, that all changes, but the Binder is not Zceryll, and to claim otherwise is to do it a great disservice.

Just quickly going through low-level (1-3) Vestiges, let's see what offense or combat utility a straight-3s Binder can bring to the table. The gold standard here is the Warlock—a slow start with a –4 DEX, but enough feats and items will help with the ranged touch attack (and touch attacks are seriously easy to make) that eventually just BAB will do the job. Saveless invocations help, naturally.

Amon: Darkvision. The horns are a non-touch attack (in melee, no less), and the breath weapon allows a save.
Andromalius: Hideous Laughter has a save, Sneak Attack requires hitting. The others have some out-of-combat utility, but nothing after initiative is rolled.
Aym: Decent defensive abilities. With low CON, you don't want to be in melee for your touch attack, but it's better than most vestiges.
Dahlver-Nar: Maddening Moan and Shield Self require saves. No natural armor without a high CON bonus. Immunity to WIS damage is something, but hardly a character-defining ability.
Focalor: Aura of Sadness works, if you can survive melee. Lightning Strike allows a save, but at least it's save-for-half. Still pretty weak, though. Focalor's Breath allows a save. Water Breathing is Water Breathing.
Haagenti: Shields might help, but axes won't. Confusing Touch is melee and involves a save. Immunity to Transformation is another obscure defensive ability.
Karsus: This would let you be an item-monkey, at least. Dispelling Touch is OK if you can get close enough. This is an expensive option, but it's one of the better ones if you can afford it.
Leraje: Nothing worthwhile for a minimum-stat character. You're not hitting with those attacks.
Malphas: Decent out-of-combat scouting, but that's it. Sudden Strike requires hitting.
Naberius: Nothing especially combat-related. You're unlikely to have good enough skills to really notice him.
Paimon: You're more accurate than you would be otherwise, but that doesn't make you accurate.
Ronove: Nothing special. Far Hand is unconditional damage every 5 rounds, I guess. Go 1d6!
Savnok: Strictly defensive, but better than nothing.

I'm not seeing where an all-3s Binder can bring as much to the table as a Warlock can, or even a dedicated IC Bard. Hell, let's throw in 4ths:

Agares: Only the earth elemental helps in battle, and not very much, especially since it's hard to resummon if it dies.
Andras: You don't want to be close enough to combat to actually use this. The horse is something, I guess.
Buer: Slow out-of-combat healing, like always.
Eurynome: Nothing that'll really change the way your party functions.
Tenebrous: Deeper Darkness is decent if and only if it won't screw your partymates. Touch of the Void is a touch attack, but it's melee and has a slow recharge. You won't be doing much Turning with that CHA of yours. Flicker is decent.

So yeah, really not seeing what an all-3s Binder can do to make up for their weaknesses. An all-10s Binder is another story, but the Warlock and the (harshly limited) Bard work with all 3s.

[Morph Bark]

A few months ago I asked what class I should play if I had a 1 in Str, Dex, Con, Wis and Cha and a 3 in Int. Most answers included Warlock, Binder and Druid.

[Chronos]

Tenebrous: Deeper Darkness is decent if and only if it won't screw your partymates. Touch of the Void is a touch attack, but it's melee and has a slow recharge. You won't be doing much Turning with that CHA of yours. Flicker is decent.There are also some divine feats that only need one turning use, and which become quite handy if you can use them every five rounds. Still probably not worth it on a minimal-stat character, though.

And the low-level low-stat warlock doesn't even need to roll attack rolls to be great. Just give up on Eldritch Blast entirely, and use Summon Swarm as your offense: Effectively, it's 1d6 damage a round, at range, to up to four targets at once, with no attack roll or save, plus two different save-or-suck effects (one of them choosable at time of casting) that aren't dependent on your stats. That's great at first level, and there's no reason you couldn't do it with all 3s.

[Particle_Man]

Another vote for Warlock. This also makes them a great NPC "easy bake" magic type class for DMs to make up as random encounters: All 10 stats, pick a few invocations, standard magic items and go!

[demigodus]

druid.

Your animal companion doesn't care if you have all 3's for stats. It will still kill stuff for you. Should probably see if there is an ACF to trade out spell casting though...

[demigodus]

druid.

Your animal companion doesn't care if you have all 3's for stats. It will still kill stuff for you. Should probably see if there is an ACF to trade out spell casting though...

[ericgrau]

With the right spell selection you can make an effective (not merely passable) sorcerer with 11 cha and dump everything else. Ability score bumps every 4 levels and cha magic items handle the rest. Pick spells that don't have a save nor attack roll or that have a good effect even on a passed save. It's almost as good as a sorcerer with good ability scores except for the low hp. Don't forget false life.

11 is pushing it though; you better hope you can find your magic items somewhere. A wizard can do it too except he has to wait until level 4 for 2nd level spells. I don't think a cleric or favoured soul could handle it simply because cleric spells aren't as good as arcane spells. Without melee or spells with a save I don't think it would work well. An 11 wis wildshape druid would be passable because he can melee but again the casting would be limited. Technically 10 cha could do it to if you don't mind waiting until level 4-5 to reach full effectiveness.

[Steward]

druid.

Your animal companion doesn't care if you have all 3's for stats. It will still kill stuff for you. Should probably see if there is an ACF to trade out spell casting though...


That's true on paper, but in practice animal companions tend to be judgmental at best about profoundly unskilled masters. That empathic link is a surprisingly effective conduit for feelings of contempt and embarassment..

[Invader]

Druid, I think. Dump everything into Wisdom and get whatever Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution you need through shapeshifting with Natural Spell.

You keep your own hps while wildshaped so dont dump con and then wade into melee.

[Lateral]

But with DFA you're rarely making attack rolls of any kind, so hitting even touch AC becomes irrelevant.
Yeah, but your saves are CON-based, so a really low CON means that you'll never have a decent DC. A Warlock with that 3/4 BAB and some magic item support will be enough to make the touch attack consistently fairly quickly, but it's much harder to pump your breath weapon save DCs up to a respectable level.

[NOhara24]

You keep your own hps while wildshaped so dont dump con and then wade into melee.

This. I don't know why everyone is saying Druid can be played with terrible ability scores. Your CON score doesn't change when you wildshape, and your spellcasting is directly linked to your WIS score. Druids NEED good CON and WIS.

[Ceaon]

That's true on paper, but in practice animal companions tend to be judgmental at best about profoundly unskilled masters. That empathic link is a surprisingly effective conduit for feelings of contempt and embarassment..

I don't think a character with all 3's is automatically someone to be embarrased about. Such a character can still be honest, hard-working, trustworthy, well-meaning and good-spirited.

[Pilo]

Monk!
It's easy to be attribute-independent when you don't do anything that matters!
(prufock)

Well I need more character so...

[Marlowe]

I don't think a character with all 3's is automatically someone to be embarrased about. Such a character can still be honest, hard-working, trustworthy, well-meaning and good-spirited.

These are all worthy qualities. In a commoner.

[Morph Bark]

I don't think a character with all 3's is automatically someone to be embarrased about. Such a character can still be honest, hard-working, trustworthy, well-meaning and good-spirited.

But they will also likely be rude, short-sighted and idiotic, while physically being even less fit to be a soldier than pre-Captain America Steve Rogers.

[Ceaon]

These are all worthy qualities. In a commoner.

And commoners can have strong bonds with animals, can't they? If anything, animals are less critical of humans than other humans are.

[Killer Angel]

As the title says - which classes are hurt the least by a lack of good ability modifiers?

It depends.
If we're talking of low-mid attributes, except one that can be good, then all MAD classes are screwed and casters rule even more.
If we're talking about all attributes mid-low, then T1 tier is doomed.

[Particle_Man]

If we're talking about all attributes mid-low, then T1 tier is doomed.

So we have found a way to balance the tiers (making all players start with low ability scores)? :smallsmile:

[Rubik]

So we have found a way to balance the tiers (making all players start with low ability scores)? :smallsmile:The idea that lower point buys screwing over lower tier classes is widely established, but after you hit a certain point EVERYONE is screwed by really low scores.

...except warlocks.

[ericgrau]

So we have found a way to balance the tiers (making all players start with low ability scores)? :smallsmile:

Nah I'd do the opposite if Iwanted to favor noncasters. As I explained a few posts back you can easily make a very effective 11-12 int wizard. Maybe even 10 int or less depending on the level. High stats would help out MAD more and SAD/ZAD (zero AD) less. Giving out better ability scores, better gear, more feats, more of anything in general helps casters but it favors non-casters even more. Casters merely last a bit longer or get a couple more options similar to existing options, non-casters actually make their main abilities stronger and add on completely new options that weren't even available before. They might even start using staffs or other spell imitating items and do whatever casters can do.

I think tiers are greatly exaggerated but a bit of extra character wealth could let nonmagical PCs do some more magical things and also hit harder. As long as you don't go overboard it could work fine to encourage people to play them without screwing up the game. You could give out other things at the same time but money opens up the greatest variety of options.

[demigodus]

What would help out melee over casters, is if you set all beginning attribute scores to the same value. So everyone gets X in all stats, where X is a number between 3 and 18. Possibly double (or triple) the cost of all stat enhancement items, but have them given an equal boost to all stats.

Suddenly MAD is a bit less of a problem.

Of course, people can still only boost 1 stat every 4 levels, and they can still buy tomes/manuals to boost just one stat.

[Rubik]

What would help out melee over casters, is if you set all beginning attribute scores to the same value. So everyone gets X in all stats, where X is a number between 3 and 18. Possibly double (or triple) the cost of all stat enhancement items, but have them given an equal boost to all stats.

Suddenly MAD is a bit less of a problem.

Of course, people can still only boost 1 stat every 4 levels, and they can still buy tomes/manuals to boost just one stat.That would really make it difficult to roleplay quite a few things. If your mental stats are all, say, 14, how do you play an uncharismatic wizard with a really high intellect?

[Particle_Man]

Nah I'd do the opposite if Iwanted to favor noncasters. As I explained a few posts back you can easily make a very effective 11-12 int wizard. Maybe even 10 int or less depending on the level..

Wait, cleric I could see (domain powers, turn undead) but wizard of int 3? How does that get good? The familiar? The item creation feats? UMD spam (with cha 3 though, and int 3 making it your only skill ever)?