PF Aasimar- where's the downside?

[Rift_Wolf]

Is there something vital I'm missing looking at Aasimar vs. other CR1/2 creatures like Tieflings or Tengu? Do native outsiders have some other drawback beyond immunity to enlarge/reduce person I'm unaware of?

[Benly]

Is there something vital I'm missing looking at Aasimar vs. other CR1/2 creatures like Tieflings or Tengu? Do native outsiders have some other drawback beyond immunity to enlarge/reduce person I'm unaware of?

Not really. Bestiary races have a "GM, think carefully before you let players use these" note on them and that's about it.

For what it's worth, core races have generally been improved from 3.5 enough (and Polymorph nerfed enough - that on its own made Outsider massively abusable) that aasimar aren't as far ahead of other races as they used to be, though upcoming book support may change that.

[deuxhero]

More room for DM veto, no support and no bonus feat/extra skill points.


Seriously, outside of Cleric, no class uses both stats at once (and even then, Cha is secondary for Clerics), so it isn't really that big a boon. The SLA is a pretty lackluster spell and the resistances don't really matter much after the first few levels (and they are weak even then). The only thing that really merited LA+1 in 3.5 was how abusable the Outsider type was, but PF changed the Polymorph line works.

You MAY get some millage out of Outsiders are automatically proficiency with Simple and Martial weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Outsider), but the only characters that should be engaging in melee and aren't proficient with such anyways are proficiency alreddy are Rogues and Vivisection alchemists (possibly Clerics and Inquisitors, but their deities give them a pick of one anyways).

[Vemynal]

Honestly? I don't know why anyone would play any of the bestiary races atm other than for flavor.

Excluding the Goblin, none of them have the alternative favored class bonuses that the core races have.

Why would I ever play a bestiary race sorcerer when I can play a Human sorcerer and have *an additional spell per level* of my non-highest spell level.

That's gold right there!

[Benly]

You MAY get some millage out of Outsiders are automatically proficiency with Simple and Martial weapons (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Outsider), but the only characters that should be engaging in melee and aren't proficient with such anyways are proficiency alreddy are Rogues and Vivisection alchemists (possibly Clerics and Inquisitors, but their deities give them a pick of one anyways).

It does make Eldritch Knight qualification easier if you get away with it, but yeah, it's a pretty niche case. I would also add melee bards to the list of characters who benefit from the extra proficiencies; the longsword isn't bad but the added options are appreciated. (Archer bards as well to a lesser extent, for the shortbow to longbow upgrade.)


Honestly? I don't know why anyone would play any of the bestiary races atm other than for flavor.

Excluding the Goblin, none of them have the alternative favored class bonuses that the core races have.


Not all classes have racial favored-class options on par with the human sorcerer. I would much rather have a strix's natural flight than any of the racial favored-class options for rangers, for example. The human sorcerer and oracle options are a pretty significant outlier in terms of favored-class-benefit power.

[deuxhero]

Eh, Half-Elf Summoner/Bard, Dwarf Barbarian, Gnome Alchemist, Half-Orc Alchemist/Barbarian are all pretty good (Half-Elf Summoner is the only "Must have" though). Human Paladin, Gnome Druid and Goblin Alchemist are worth taking for exactly 6 levels (immunity to mundane fire has lots of uses for the creative player)

[Feralventas]

Aasimars make great Monkadins. Wisdom and Charisma boost, everyone wins.

The bonus on Perception and Diplomacy isn't bad either.

Daylight works great as a signal flare; I used the Fighter/Paladin Aasimars in the Tome of Magic's Tower of Woe section as a city's elite guards, and the party had a couple situations where they had a Lot less time than they would have liked because one of the FPA's tossed a Daylight effect out the door before engaging the ruffians making a scene.

[Benly]

Eh, Half-Elf Summoner/Bard, Dwarf Barbarian, Gnome Alchemist, Half-Orc Alchemist/Barbarian are all pretty good (Half-Elf Summoner is the only "Must have" though). Human Paladin, Gnome Druid and Goblin Alchemist are worth taking for exactly 6 levels (immunity to mundane fire has lots of uses for the creative player)

Half-elf summoner I'll grant as a game-changer, and potentially the alchemist picks for specific builds. The others are all nice, but not the kind of thing that knocks other race options off the table.

[grarrrg]

Is there something vital I'm missing looking at Aasimar vs. other CR1/2 creatures like Tieflings or Tengu? Do native outsiders have some other drawback beyond immunity to enlarge/reduce person I'm unaware of?

The downside is that there is little upside.

The main advantages are +2 Wis +2 Cha with NO penalty stat, and Acid/Cold/Elec Resist 5.

Even with no "-2", the Stats don't lend themselves to Martial characters, and since Cha is a dump for most Martials you're left with a +2 Wis, that you could have gotten with Human/Half-Elf/Half-Orc instead, but with more fringe benefits (or just moving the +2 to Str instead).

The Resists while nice, aren't super awesome on their own.

[Mustard]

There is an interesting potential drawback (which could also be an advantage under certain circumstances) via the Planar Binding spells. I don't see anywhere that says native outsiders are excluded from Planar Binding. So adversaries of an aasimar PC may be able to use that to call that PC over at their leisure, so long as they are not on the same plane as said PC, and attempt to kill him or her, repeatedly if necessary.

[Rift_Wolf]

There is an interesting potential drawback (which could also be an advantage under certain circumstances) via the Planar Binding spells. I don't see anywhere that says native outsiders are excluded from Planar Binding. So adversaries of an aasimar PC may be able to use that to call that PC over at their leisure, so long as they are not on the same plane as said PC, and attempt to kill him or her, repeatedly if necessary.

It's almost like you want the player to flip the table....

I dunno, I guess the arguments presented seem reasonable. I never play a human, unless arm-twisted into it. I prefer beastfolk or small races, lizardfolk for preference. My first DM didn't allow lizardfolk, claiming they were broken. This was in a game where level-dipping and splatbooking had broken the game far worse than my humble lizardfolk druid could have...

[CTrees]

There is an interesting potential drawback (which could also be an advantage under certain circumstances) via the Planar Binding spells. I don't see anywhere that says native outsiders are excluded from Planar Binding. So adversaries of an aasimar PC may be able to use that to call that PC over at their leisure, so long as they are not on the same plane as said PC, and attempt to kill him or her, repeatedly if necessary.

Hrm, interesting. Tieflings and aasimar are the first two entries on the planar ally list... Gate doesn't require "unique beings" to accept being summoned, so once you have 19+HD you're safe, but... Planar Binding is just "will save or be called," and Planar Ally... is saving throw: no, allows a specific individual to be called, and is "of your deity's choice." The cleric-based necromancer BBEG whose plans your aasimar paladin is ruining can, apparently, just planeshift and then get his deity to bring you to him, with no save. Normally, "depends on the desires of a god" is a nasty caveat, but this time it seems an easy bar. Would work just as well for a PC cleric vs. an evil outsider enemy... setup a sufficient trap, make a compelling argument to your deity, and there should be no reason the Planar Ally line doesn't turn into "no save, just die" versus an outsider of less than 19HD.

Nasty! DMs can just say, "oh he had Dimensional Anchor up," but some PCs should be very paranoid.

[Benly]

Hrm, interesting. Tieflings and aasimar are the first two entries on the planar ally list...

If you mean the table in the spell entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/planar-ally) at pfsrd.com, it should be borne in mind that this table is not an official source. It is a convenience assembled by the people who maintain pfsrd, listing all the core outsiders by HD to make them easier to browse when choosing what to bind. (It also lists elementals, even though they are not legal targets for Planar Ally.) It's true that nothing in the Planar Ally or Planar Binding text excludes calling a planetouched, but the presence or absence of a creature on that table is not actually an original source which supports or denies its legality as a target.

Also, the specific case you suggest (of a good-aligned cleric petitioning her deity for an evil-aligned enemy to be delivered by Planar Ally) is not feasible. Calling an evil-aligned creature with Planar Ally makes the spell evil-aligned, and clerics are forbidden to cast spells of alignments opposed to their own.


edit: holy cow, I sound like a huge obnoxious jerk in this post. Whatever, the point is in there, please disregard my obnoxious phrasing choices.

[deuxhero]

Wow, I just noticed they changed Planar Ally... to remove the least broken part (Elementals are the LEAST abusive thing that can do). *sigh* Paizo.

[Lord_Gareth]

*sigh* Paizo.

Story of their entire career, bro. Only quality writing they've got is made by Dreamscarred.

[Rift_Wolf]

Wow, I just noticed they changed Planar Ally... to remove the least broken part (Elementals are the LEAST abusive thing that can do). *sigh* Paizo.

Elementals are Outsider (Elemental) in PF. You can still summon them. They tweaked a few things I've noticed; Succubi are no longer summonable by Lesser Planar Binding, for instance.

[BlueEyes]

Story of their entire career, bro. Only quality writing they've got is made by Dreamscarred.
I wouldn't criticize the company based only on a couple of mistakes and totally ignore all the rest of their work, if I were you. I'm also mighty disappointed with some of their decisions, but lets not be too harsh on them.

[Lord_Gareth]

I wouldn't criticize the company based only on a couple of mistakes and totally ignore all the rest of their work, if I were you. I'm also mighty disappointed with some of their decisions, but lets not be too harsh on them.

I criticize Paizo for their numerous ill-thought and unforgivable mistakes, total lack of professional conduct, childish behavior on their own forums, general inability to design and heavily pro-caster, anti-melee rhetoric. Their design team has proven time and again that they have the maturity of six-year-olds and as for their development team, they have none, which is why so much shoddily-written crap gets published as official content. They totally failed to comprehend the game they inherited and the 'fixes' they built broke it worse. I find that there has not been a single design decision outside of consolidating the Skill system that was of any kind of quality on their part whatsoever.

I don't dismiss companies based on 'one or two' mistakes. I dismiss them because they demonstrate complete and utter incompetence.

[Ravens_cry]

If they were truly as incompetent as you claim, why is Pathfinder still fun to play?
I tend to shy away from their official forums for the most part, so I can't really comment on the drama there, but I have had a lot of fun with their product from both sides of the table, so I really think you are overstating the issue just a little.

[Lord_Gareth]

If they were truly as incompetent as you claim, why is Pathfinder still fun to play?
I tend to shy away from their official forums for the most part, so I can't really comment on the drama there, but I have had a lot of fun with their product from both sides of the table, so I really think you are overstating the issue just a little.

I dunno, why is 3.5 fun to play? Both systems are rife with exceptionally shoddy design. The fact that Pathfinder is worse doesn't mean it's unplayable.

[BlueEyes]

I didn't say "one or two". Also, you're exaggerating.

[Menteith]

If they were truly as incompetent as you claim, why is Pathfinder still fun to play?
I tend to shy away from their official forums for the most part, so I can't really comment on the drama there, but I have had a lot of fun with their product from both sides of the table, so I really think you are overstating the issue just a little.

Arguably, because the core rules they worked from were reasonably solid. I like 3.P just fine, and have no real issue with playing Pathfinder, but they certainly did make some glaring mistakes in both public relations and in achieving their stated goals. On the other hand, I really like the settings they've designed, and the Alchemist is still my favorite class, so there you go.

[Ravens_cry]

Arguably, because the core rules they worked from were reasonably solid. I like 3.P just fine, and have no real issue with playing Pathfinder, but they certainly did make some glaring mistakes in both public relations and in achieving their stated goals. On the other hand, I really like the settings they've designed, and the Alchemist is still my favorite class, so there you go.
Arguably, they did make improvements as well, but that's my opinion.
The setting does have intriguing elements, and it combines variety and flavour really well in my opinion.

[Crasical]

ANOTHER Pathfinder thread that devolves into whining about Paizo? You guys are worse than /tg/ sometimes.

Back on topic, most of the 'downsides' to the Aasimar are already noted. It probably bears repeating that Monsters as PCs is something the GM needs to adjudicate careful, as the Hobgoblin has the same lack of a reduced characteristic and gets their bonus in two stats most adventurers can use, dex and con. That's not even getting into the Drow Noble... Without careful preparation, being a Dhampir is likely to actually weaken a player. So it's something the player and DM should talk about.

[CTrees]

If you mean the table in the spell entry (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/planar-ally) at pfsrd.com, it should be borne in mind that this table is not an official source. It is a convenience assembled by the people who maintain pfsrd, listing all the core outsiders by HD to make them easier to browse when choosing what to bind. (It also lists elementals, even though they are not legal targets for Planar Ally.) It's true that nothing in the Planar Ally or Planar Binding text excludes calling a planetouched, but the presence or absence of a creature on that table is not actually an original source which supports or denies its legality as a target.

Also, the specific case you suggest (of a good-aligned cleric petitioning her deity for an evil-aligned enemy to be delivered by Planar Ally) is not feasible. Calling an evil-aligned creature with Planar Ally makes the spell evil-aligned, and clerics are forbidden to cast spells of alignments opposed to their own.


edit: holy cow, I sound like a huge obnoxious jerk in this post. Whatever, the point is in there, please disregard my obnoxious phrasing choices.

Point taken on the spell entry (though I think any of the native outsiders are valid targets). As to the cleric, I guess I'm too used to making neutral clerics, heh. Replace all of my example clerics with oracles, then, which lack the problems with aligned spells.

EDIT: and seriously, no one's going to say anything new about Paizo's PR fumbles, so can we just move past it, already? :smallannoyed:

[Drelua]

ANOTHER Pathfinder thread that devolves into whining about Paizo? You guys are worse than /tg/ sometimes.

...That's not even getting into the Drow Noble...

I'm glad to see this thread finally get back on track.

Anyway, the reason the Drow Noble is so powerful is because it's CR +1. For some reason, just about every other example character is CR = class level -1 (1 becomes 1/2), but the Drow Noble has a CR = class level. For some reason this isn't mentioned in the stats anywhere, but it can be fairly easily extrapolated. I'd call that sloppiness one of Paizo's mistakes, but anyway. I always see people saying the Drow Noble is overpowered, but I'm not sure if they realize this. Although, with a net stat modifier of +8, spell resistance, and a bunch of SLAs, I'm not really sure if +1 CR is enough.

[CTrees]

As a DM... if I had a player really pushing it, I think i'd go by the fluff and make the player roll for ability to play a drow noble, at +1 LA. One in twenty, right? But that's just because I like the idea of gambling for it. PF's general guidelines about playing monsters... have some problems, and I think those SLAs and that SR is too much, with the stats, for only +1LA. I'm hoping they'll have better rules in the Advanced Race Guide.

[deuxhero]

Drow Noble is the only outlyer, the rest are pretty consistently inferior to a Human's bonus feat/skill points.

[BlueEyes]

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1oeq?Bestiary-Drow-vs-Noble-Drow#10

Drow noble is worse than Half-Celestial and Half-Celestial is +1 CR (even with 5 or less HD).

[grarrrg]

Drow Noble is the only outlyer, the rest are pretty consistently inferior to a Human's bonus feat/skill points.

In the "better than human" category are also Tieflings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Tiefling) (especially if Fiendish Heritage is allowed, even more so if you get to pick your abilities), and Svirfneblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Svirfneblin) (debatable, but the potential is there).

In the "human-equivalent-ish" area (i.e. definitely playable) we have:
Goblin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Goblin-Player-Characters) a whooping +4 DEX, and the only non-core race to have Favored Class bonuses AND its Favored options are generally more powerful that other race/class options.
Ratfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Ratfolk), generally average/poor for a race, but the Swarming ability has potential
Strix (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Strix) 60ft. Average FLY SPEED. 'nuff said.
Suli (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Suli), decent stats, and all [energy] resist 5 (all energies, minus Sonic/Force of course).

Monster race loser:
Gillman (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Gillman)...Gillman suck. Water Dependent means they need to immerse themselves in water EVERY DAY or else they DIE. Their racial features are almost non-existent (except for that "no water = death" bit, oh, and the slavery, don't forget the slavery...). And, even if you're playing an "Aquatic" campaign, they are still COMPLETELY and UTTERLY outclassed by the Merfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/monsters-as-pcs#TOC-Merfolk) which have better stats, and a Swim Speed (50ft.), and DON'T have 'dying' as a class feature.

[deuxhero]

Remember you need to drop a feat and RAW, have to roll for your new abilities for fiendish heritage.

Strix archers own at low levels if the terrain supports them, but the advantage quickly vanishes.

Suli really only stops low level blasters, which is a poor role anyways.

Ratfolk's flank ability depends on two Ratfolk in the party

+4 to a stat really isn't THAT big a deal, especially when it isn't a casting stat. Favored classes are OK, but they are all either copies of a core race but inferior, or copies of a core race alternate and superior, but for them, the alternate wasn't worth taking over 1 HP/skill in the first place.

[grarrrg]

Remember you need to drop a feat and RAW, have to roll for your new abilities for fiendish heritage.

Strix archers own at low levels if the terrain supports them, but the advantage quickly vanishes.

Suli really only stops low level blasters, which is a poor role anyways.

Ratfolk's flank ability depends on two Ratfolk in the party

+4 to a stat really isn't THAT big a deal, especially when it isn't a casting stat. Favored classes are OK, but they are all either copies of a core race but inferior, or copies of a core race alternate and superior, but for them, the alternate wasn't worth taking over 1 HP/skill in the first place.

It's Dex. King of all Physical stats.
Make an Archer, make a Weapon Finesse-er (Agile Enchantment!).
Make a Gunslinger, w/Favored class bonus.
Two other notable Goblin class bonuses:

Ranger: Gain a +1 bonus to damage inflicted on dogs (and dog-like creatures), horses (and horse-like creatures) and on creature types the same as your highest favored enemy bonus.

Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast, and must have the fire descriptor.
With the Instant Enemy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-enemy) Ranger spell, that's +Level in damage to any creature you want.
And granted, the Sorcerer spells need to be Fire, so just use the Favored option to pick up all your Blaster-y spells, and use your normal spells for utility (I know Goblins have a Cha penalty, but there are Wildblood options for Int or Wis casting).

Ratfolk I just said had potential, it's an interesting ability not really found anywhere else.

Strix: always on, all day, no-spell, no-item Flying is nothing to sneeze at. And the stat boosts are decent, even if they net '+0'.

Tieflings are great even without taking Fienish Heritage. Fire Resist alone beats out the Aasimar resists. And the Cha penalty is negated if you go Sorcerer (and Cha is a dump stat for 'most' other classes anyway).

[Menteith]

+4 to a stat really isn't THAT big a deal, especially when it isn't a casting stat. Favored classes are OK, but they are all either copies of a core race but inferior, or copies of a core race alternate and superior, but for them, the alternate wasn't worth taking over 1 HP/skill in the first place.

Oh, I agree, I'm just saying that there are groups out there who allow players to choose their ability from Fiendish Heritage, and having a Wizard start play with 22 Intelligence is fantastic - burning a feat for +2 Int, especially with the lowered quality of caster feats and the increase in feats gained isn't a huge deal.

[Benly]

Point taken on the spell entry (though I think any of the native outsiders are valid targets). As to the cleric, I guess I'm too used to making neutral clerics, heh. Replace all of my example clerics with oracles, then, which lack the problems with aligned spells.

It's probably also worth looking at the "Binding Outsiders" section from Ultimate Magic, which is an official source intended as a clarification of how Planar Binding and Planar Ally work. It mentions that with Planar Ally "that outsider is in the service of the god, and its desires almost always align with the cleric’s goals, or at least run in parallel with them." So it does seem like you'll only be able to call your enemies with it if they're servants of your patron deity and for whatever reason your patron wants to throw you two in the same room together.

Planar Binding has no such problem, though, so wizards are free to try to trap their outsider enemies in a little box if they feel like it.

[Larpus]

Tieflings are great even without taking Fienish Heritage. Fire Resist alone beats out the Aasimar resists. And the Cha penalty is negated if you go Sorcerer (and Cha is a dump stat for 'most' other classes anyway).
The Darkness 1/day also deserves some mention.

While not amazing, as long as you use it on normal light and below, it's quite helpful in case you're playing a stealthy character. It can also be used for some basic battlefield control.

[Mustard]

It's almost like you want the player to flip the table....

I dunno, I guess the arguments presented seem reasonable. I never play a human, unless arm-twisted into it. I prefer beastfolk or small races, lizardfolk for preference. My first DM didn't allow lizardfolk, claiming they were broken. This was in a game where level-dipping and splatbooking had broken the game far worse than my humble lizardfolk druid could have...
Well, I didn't say I would do it. Just that it's possible (it's fun to think of contrived things like this sometimes). I wouldn't even do it as a player against an outsider enemy as a sort of reverse scry-and-die.

EDIT: And regarding tieflings, the Fiendish Heritage feat is no longer required to select from the alternate types as a result of the release of Blood of Fiends, which changed the system somewhat. You pick an alternate type, which supplies different ability bonuses/penalty, a different SLA, and two different skills for the +2. And the tables to replace an SLA is basically just a gamble you can try (with GM approval).

[Ravens_cry]

Well, I didn't say I would do it. Just that it's possible (it's fun to think of contrived things like this sometimes). I wouldn't even do it as a player against an outsider enemy as a sort of reverse scry-and-die.

EDIT: And regarding tieflings, the Fiendish Heritage feat is no longer required to select from the alternate types as a result of the release of Blood of Fiends, which changed the system somewhat. You pick an alternate type, which supplies different ability bonuses/penalty, a different SLA, and two different skills for the +2. And the tables to replace an SLA is basically just a gamble you can try (with GM approval).
Oh good, those were exactly the changes I would have made. Losing your first level feat basically cripples many builds that start play at level 1.