(PF) Problems with a few other players

[Thump]

Alright. So... I'm having problems with my party atm. Currently, in our campaign, I play a Tiefling Antipaladin 5 in a 5th-level party. I've taken a bit of optimization, since I'm the only melee fighter in the party (other than a 10th-level barbarian DMPC), and I'm getting called out for being "overpowered.

One of our encounters went along these lines;

We jump through a portal, and we immediately come across two Portal Drakes. We make saves versus a gas that acts similar to Drow Poison, knocks our wizard unconscious. Everyone else saves.

Witch goes first, hits the first drake with a spell (don't remember the name) that makes it unable to act unless it spends a move action screaming in pain.

Oracle goes second, hits the first one with her scythe, doing 5 points of damage. (She has a +1 thundering scythe).

Wizard is unconscious.

Rogue goes next (Strix Rogue 5) and she uses her dual whips to hit the first one.

Then, I go. And this is where the trouble starts.


I play, as I said earlier, a Tiefling Antipaladin. I tend to optimize a bit, so I'll show his stats quickly.
Demon-Spawn Tiefling Antipaladin 5
22 STR (18 start, +2 racial, +2 item)
10 DEX
15 CON
10 INT (12 start, -2 racial)
8 WIS
22 CHA (17 start, +1 level, +2 racial, +2 feat)

Feats: Fiendish Heritage (Allows for selecting tiefling type, extra ability)
Power Attack
Necromantic Affinity(Treated as undead for positive/negative energy)
Channel Smite
Weapon Focus: Falchion

Items: Strongarm Bracers
Full Plate(no cost, everyone gets armor)
+1 keen falchion (cost halved for WBL, everyone gets a +2 weapon)
Belt of giant strength +2


So, I decided to go after the second drake, since it wasn't touched.

I critted, and rolled 2d6(vicious)+3d6(channeling energy)+4d6(weapon)+32 to damage.

It killed the drake in one hit.

Then, I got called out by the oracle and wizard for being overpowered, and then it turned into a big argument, and now I've been heavily restricted on my character creation and what I'm allowed to buy.

What do?

[Menteith]

I would try and help the rest of your group optimize up to your level, or at least to a point where they feel they're contributing. You've got a Witch, Oracle, and Wizard in the party - if they know what they're doing, your damage certainly won't be overpowered. If you want to keep your character, give them advice on decent spell selections, and ways to optimize, and everyone will get to be wonderfully powerful.

The less exciting option is to choose the lowest power class you can find, and optimize the hell out of it. Antipaladin's not that powerful to begin with, though, so that might be a bit trickier.

[Thump]

I would try and help the rest of your group optimize up to your level, or at least to a point where they feel they're contributing. You've got a Witch, Oracle, and Wizard in the party - if they know what they're doing, your damage certainly won't be overpowered. If you want to keep your character, give them advice on decent spell selections, and ways to optimize, and everyone will get to be wonderfully powerful.

The less exciting option is to choose the lowest power class you can find, and optimize the hell out of it. Antipaladin's not that powerful to begin with, though, so that might be a bit trickier.

The witch lets me help her choose her spells, since I play a higher level druid in a separate campaign. Nobody likes the wizard, though, since IRL, he's a complete jackass. He has to tag along anyways, though, because he's the witch's sister.

The oracle just likes doing things herself, but she sucks at making characters. She won't let anyone but the DM see her character sheet.

[Krazzman]

"dafuq did I just read?"

Seriously? Call them out on it. You did not optimize in any way. State to them that this was a crit and that crits normally should be really hurting. If they give you any contra on this you can bring the old 3.5 crit discussion of orcs as CR1 being far too powerfull because of being able to crit a level 7 Wizard into his coffin.

Although I don't know where the 2d6 vicious damage come from. But you could also point the to their options, which you don't have. Or tell them what would've happened if the oracle had landed a crit etc. else ditch them if you can grab another group. I personally was also called a "powergamer" but I can't really tell you how to resolve this since they more or less ditched me and my GF.

Anyhow, good luck with this aggravating topic.

EDIT: to clarify myself: I think the feats you took are normal for a melee, and additionally if you take into account that you took a feat to be able to heal yourself just to be sure to stand a bit longer... It's a good build bot not really over powered...

[Thump]

"dafuq did I just read?"

Seriously? Call them out on it. You did not optimize in any way. State to them that this was a crit and that crits normally should be really hurting. If they give you any contra on this you can bring the old 3.5 crit discussion of orcs as CR1 being far too powerfull because of being able to crit a level 7 Wizard into his coffin.

Although I don't know where the 2d6 vicious damage come from. But you could also point the to their options, which you don't have. Or tell them what would've happened if the oracle had landed a crit etc. else ditch them if you can grab another group. I personally was also called a "powergamer" but I can't really tell you how to resolve this since they more or less ditched me and my GF.

Anyhow, good luck with this aggravating topic.

Upon reaching 5th level, an antipaladin receives a boon from his dark patrons. This boon can take one of two forms. Once the form is chosen, it cannot be changed.

The first type of bond allows the antipaladin to enhance his weapon as a standard action by calling upon the aid of a fiendish spirit for 1 minute per antipaladin level. When called, the spirit causes the weapon to shed unholy light as a torch. At 5th level, this spirit grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus. For every three levels beyond 5th, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +6 at 20th level.

Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s cost (sorted and listed below).

These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon bonuses to a maximum of +5, or they can be used to add any of the following weapon properties:

+1: flaming, keen, vicious

+2: anarchic, flaming burst, unholy, wounding

+3: speed

+5: vorpal

These bonuses are added to any properties the weapon already has, but duplicate abilities do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. The bonus and properties granted by the spirit are determined when the spirit is called and cannot be changed until the spirit is called again. The fiendish spirit imparts no bonuses if the weapon is held by anyone other than the antipaladin but resumes giving bonuses if returned to the antipaladin. These bonuses apply to only one end of a double weapon. An antipaladin can use this ability once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day for every four levels beyond 5th, to a total of four times per day at 17th level.

If a weapon bonded with a fiendish spirit is destroyed, the antipaladin loses the use of this ability for 30 days, or until he gains a level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day period, the antipaladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
That's where the vicious damage comes from.

[grarrrg]

Oracle goes second, hits the first one with her scythe, doing 5 points of damage. (She has a +1 thundering scythe).

This is part of your problem here.
Didn't cast a Buff spell.
Didn't cast a Debuff spell.
Didn't cast ANY spell.

I don't know the Oracles STR score, but "hit it with my Scythe" should probably NOT be the first option.



I critted, and rolled 2d6(vicious)+3d6(channeling energy)+4d6(weapon)+32 to damage.

Vicious is acceptable. Point out that you took some damage as well.

Point out that Channel Smite is NOT an all the time thing. It's only useable (5 levels + 22 CHA = 8 Touches > 4 Channels) FOUR times per day. Four SINGLE HITS per day. Not Four Full-Attacks. Not Rounds. Not Minutes. FOUR times you can hit something for +3d6 damage. IF the attack hits. NOT a Touch attack. And ONLY vs. Living targets.

Heck, a 5th level Wizard/Witch/Oracle has better firepower, and PLENTY more options than just doing damage.

As for 4d6 damage on the weapon...? Falcons do 2d4, so I'm not sure how you got to 4d6, Enlarged plus x2 for Crit?

Oh, that's right, it was a CRITICAL HIT, it's SUPPOSED to do tons of damage.

[Waker]

Whenever the Wizard or Oracle casts Fly, Blink or any other buff on themselves, call them out for powergaming since you can't do that. Same goes for when they paralyze, charm, confuse, slow or any other kind of debuff on the enemy.
Really, you are a character primarily designed for combat. You didn't go with any obscure feats, equipment or class combos that results in an infinite loop. You merely had a fairly straightforward combination for dealing damage and you managed a solid critical.
What was your DMs actual view on the matter? Did they think you were OP?

[Thump]

This is part of your problem here.
Didn't cast a Buff spell.
Didn't cast a Debuff spell.
Didn't cast ANY spell.

I don't know the Oracles STR score, but "hit it with my Scythe" should probably NOT be the first option.




Vicious is acceptable. Point out that you took some damage as well.

Point out that Channel Smite is NOT an all the time thing. It's only useable (5 levels + 22 CHA = 8 Touches > 4 Channels) FOUR times per day. Four SINGLE HITS per day. Not Four Full-Attacks. Not Rounds. Not Minutes. FOUR times you can hit something for +3d6 damage. IF the attack hits. NOT a Touch attack. And ONLY vs. Living targets.

Heck, a 5th level Wizard/Witch/Oracle has better firepower, and PLENTY more options than just doing damage.

As for 4d6 damage on the weapon...? Falcons do 2d4, so I'm not sure how you got to 4d6, Enlarged plus x2 for Crit?

Oh, that's right, it was a CRITICAL HIT, it's SUPPOSED to do tons of damage.

It's a large falchion (2d6) and it critted.

[JadePhoenix]

10th level DMPC? And they complain about you?!

[KillianHawkeye]

Whenever the Wizard or Oracle casts Fly, Blink or any other buff on themselves, call them out for powergaming since you can't do that. Same goes for when they paralyze, charm, confuse, slow or any other kind of debuff on the enemy.

I support this strategy. :smallamused:

[grarrrg]

It's a large falchion (2d6) and it critted.

Ah, ok.
You just listed "falchion", so one would normally assume medium sized...

[Righteous Doggy]

Ah, ok.
You just listed "falchion", so one would normally assume medium sized...

strongarm braces were list too :P

Anyways, yeah... I don't see how you were overpowered. I think alot of groups around that level shout that a little too much. I had a character who very clearly was outdamaged by the barbarian, but I could roll more dice in a single round. Woo... Rogue sneak attack is overpowered! look at all those D6s! Don't casters usually use spells btw? It'll go away in time I'm sure, regardless of your intervention.

Limiting you is WAY too exetreme of a responce to a critical though. Hopefuly they'll learn to lighten up. How exactly are they limiting you?

[Thump]

Can no longer use races with LA, or monster races. Strictly limited to WBL, and only to books that DM has.

[grarrrg]

Can no longer use races with LA, or monster races. Strictly limited to WBL, and only to books that DM has.

Ok...
I assume this goes only for you and no one else then?
Do you have to change your current build? Or is he letting you keep it as-is for now?

[Righteous Doggy]

Can no longer use races with LA, or monster races. Strictly limited to WBL, and only to books that DM has.

Assuming that at least one person can share all his pdf versions of the books you don't lose that!

[The Crash Man]

Its funny because monster races with LA aren't even that strong and WBL is generally considered the standard.

[Righteous Doggy]

Its funny because monster races with LA aren't even that strong and WBL is generally considered the standard.

Speaking of which, is tiefling really any better than human? It looks awesome for character concepts, and a little more flexible(which all races should be imo), but it doesn't really look gamebreaking at all.

[Menteith]

Speaking of which, is tiefling really any better than human? It looks awesome for character concepts, and a little more flexible(which all races should be imo), but it doesn't really look gamebreaking at all.

If fiendish heritage is in play, and you're allowed to pick any of the D100 abilities off of there instead of rollingx3 and picking one, it's an easy way to gain +4 to a stat at character generation.

[Invader]

I have to agree with everyone else. I haven't seen anything that looks power gamed at all and I wouldn't say you even overly optimized. Remind them the staple 5th level fireball does 5d6 to everything within a 20 foot radius and that's without feats, magical enhancements, or anything else.

[Righteous Doggy]

If fiendish heritage is in play, and you're allowed to pick any of the D100 abilities off of there instead of rollingx3 and picking one, it's an easy way to gain +4 to a stat at character generation.

Only to the mental stat scores. And thats not gamebreaking I don't think. Its not what the OP was using.

Btw, when a wizard/druid/cleric call you overpowered, somethings gone horribly wrong with the world.:smallwink:. you might want to remind them the whole exponential growth thing...

[BlueEyes]

Btw, when a wizard/druid/cleric call you overpowered, somethings gone horribly wrong with the world.:smallwink:. you might want to remind them the whole exponential growth thing...
They might not know and/or not understand that.

[The Crash Man]

They might not know and/or not understand that.

Even then, blasty spells by nature do more damage than the average unoptimized fighter. Granted, the Antipaladin is much more optimized than the average no-op, but at low levels like this without ubercharging damage its probably only enough to catch up to even a novice blaster.

At level five, pick your poison. 5d6 to everything in the nearby radius with a Fireball, or 2 Greatsword attacks, one of which is very likely to miss.

[Waker]

Can no longer use races with LA, or monster races. Strictly limited to WBL, and only to books that DM has.
Well, that's entirely pointless for several reasons.
1. Your build wasn't in any fashion reliant on your character's race, you only got a +2 to Strength which is easily replicated by several basic races.
2. There is no such thing as LA in PF, nor are the Monster races noticeably better than the standard races, especially when you count some of the favored class bonuses.
3. Your DM doesn't need the books, all the PF information is on the PF SRD.

Are you the only one being restricted to these rules or is this for everyone?

[Righteous Doggy]

They might not know and/or not understand that.

I understand that, just pointing out the obvious XD. I've had a DM once tell me druids are pansies and wizards were weaker than barbarians.

Like I said before, from experience this usually fades over time. Hopefully next time you meet they'll be at least a little more understanding or less outraged at a critical of all things.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I left my first-ever group after being called a power gamer over repeated arguments that Feather Fall is an immediate action, and thus the Bardbarian who has only cast one spell in his entire life (guess which one it was) should be able to use it to save himself. This happened in the same session that the DM unexpectedly altered an archer ambush (which went awry when the archer who shot me had his arrows reflected, as the spell) to include a chest-high wall of spell turning that the Wizard (played by Yours Truly) who optimized Spellcraft in a game where Detect Magic is house ruled to be a passive, always-on effect can't tell is magical, that has unlimited spell levels and works against SLAs, but doesn't touch the Bard or the Druid's spells because "it only targets AoEs". No, I don't shorten "Area of Effect"; the DM used the acronym. Verbatim.

Sometimes, the best option is to vote with your feet. If these prohibitive rules are being levied over your head and nobody else's, then that time is now.

P.S. for those who are curious: the Oracle cannot have a STR of 14 or higher, because a minimum damage roll would do 6 damage. That means that a 5th-level Oracle with no more than +1 STR mod (and an astonishing +5 to-hit with a +1 weapon, barring miscellaneous bonuses) purposefully waded into melee to deal one insultingly weak, presumably unbuffed attac when they could be doing so much more. You cannot be brought to task for outpacing someone who is purposefully un-optimizing. If the player refuses your help, and the DM decided you are the one who should be punished for it, then skedaddle.

[navar100]

Witch did a good job. Enemy is hindered in taking actions. That's less damage it does to the party. Net win - party. Does the Witch have Slumber Hex to make enemies go nighty night and not do anything at all? The Wizard is asleep. The party knows how powerful that is.

The Oracle is stupid. Attack with the scythe? She couldn't at least cast Bull Strength on herself first? Better, cast it on you for even more damage or at least the Rogue since you're already a competent warrior and don't need it as much. Cast Bless, give everyone a +1 to hit. Cast Prayer, give party +1 and enemies -1. Heck, Delay Poison on the Wizard to wake him up perhaps, granted Delay Poison probably is not a popular spell known for Oracles. Spend the full round action just to see if it's possible to wake the Wizard.

Give the Rogue the rule book. Show her Rogue's sneak attack damage. Show her the flanking rules. Show her how flanking allows Rogues to get sneak attack damage. Tell her to forget the whip fetish, buy her a rapier as a present and tell her to get Improved Critical feat for it when able if she doesn't come across a keen rapier in treasure.

I'm not even trying to uberoptimize, thinking spontaneously as I write this from memory without even opening the Pathfinder book in the bookcase, and already I'm playing more effective characters.

[Thump]

Ok...
I assume this goes only for you and no one else then?
Do you have to change your current build? Or is he letting you keep it as-is for now?


Witch did a good job. Enemy is hindered in taking actions. That's less damage it does to the party. Net win - party. Does the Witch have Slumber Hex to make enemies go nighty night and not do anything at all? The Wizard is asleep. The party knows how powerful that is.

The Oracle is stupid. Attack with the scythe? She couldn't at least cast Bull Strength on herself first? Better, cast it on you for even more damage or at least the Rogue since you're already a competent warrior and don't need it as much. Cast Bless, give everyone a +1 to hit. Cast Prayer, give party +1 and enemies -1. Heck, Delay Poison on the Wizard to wake him up perhaps, granted Delay Poison probably is not a popular spell known for Oracles. Spend the full round action just to see if it's possible to wake the Wizard.

Give the Rogue the rule book. Show her Rogue's sneak attack damage. Show her the flanking rules. Show her how flanking allows Rogues to get sneak attack damage. Tell her to forget the whip fetish, buy her a rapier as a present and tell her to get Improved Critical feat for it when able if she doesn't come across a keen rapier in treasure.

I'm not even trying to uberoptimize, thinking spontaneously as I write this from memory without even opening the Pathfinder book in the bookcase, and already I'm playing more effective characters.

The rogue knows what she's doing, she picked dual BLADED whips because it gives her two weapons with fifteen-foot reach, and she can just fly above enemies and stay out of reach while snapping at them with sneak attacks. (The bladed whips are homebrew, they do 1d6 lethal, not subject to the same rules as normal whips) so she can get two sneak attacks off in a round for a potential 2d6+4+6d6.

The oracle... she's just stupid. Her STR is 12, and she picked Oracle of Battle, and she doesn't have Bull's Strength on her spell list. All I know is that she picked CMW as one, when our witch already has Healing Hex, Prehensile Hair and Evil Eye. At least her CHA is 18, but she decides to wade into melee combat more, when she has something between 25 and 32 HP, with 14 CON. The witch didn't agree with what the DM did, since we both know how this stuff works.

Did I mention the oracle was my sister?

[Deadlights]

The rogue knows what she's doing, she picked dual BLADED whips because it gives her two weapons with fifteen-foot reach, and she can just fly above enemies and stay out of reach while snapping at them with sneak attacks. (The bladed whips are homebrew, they do 1d6 lethal, not subject to the same rules as normal whips) so she can get two sneak attacks off in a round for a potential 2d6+4+6d6.

The oracle... she's just stupid. Her STR is 12, and she picked Oracle of Battle, and she doesn't have Bull's Strength on her spell list. All I know is that she picked CMW as one, when our witch already has Healing Hex, Prehensile Hair and Evil Eye. At least her CHA is 18, but she decides to wade into melee combat more, when she has something between 25 and 32 HP, with 14 CON. The witch didn't agree with what the DM did, since we both know how this stuff works.

Did I mention the oracle was my sister?

Did you try to explain to her that Oracles get CMW for free?

[Lonely Tylenol]

The rogue knows what she's doing, she picked dual BLADED whips because it gives her two weapons with fifteen-foot reach, and she can just fly above enemies and stay out of reach while snapping at them with sneak attacks. (The bladed whips are homebrew, they do 1d6 lethal, not subject to the same rules as normal whips) so she can get two sneak attacks off in a round for a potential 2d6+4+6d6.

So what you're telling me is that you're not qualitatively better at doing damage than the Rogue, or anything else than the Witch, but you were still descended upon by the Oracle (who does a whopping 5 damage with a scythe on the odd lucky hit), the Wizard (who fell asleep on the job--and should know better than to be calling people out when he can be so easily caught with his pants down), and the DM (with Wonder-Boy, the 10th-level Barbarian DMPC)?

Run. Run fast and far. And take the Witch (and maybe the Rogue) with you. This game is about to go downhill for you in a big way.

[CTrees]

Eh, I can understand why you wouldn't want to flee - only game in town, playing with friends, a few other possible reasons. Normally my advice would be to build a buffer or battlefield control, but with the existing players... um. I don't know.

But yeah, tieflings don't have LA in PF. Just needed to reiterate, for my own sanity.

[Waker]

I can't critique the wizard's build since the only thing I know is that they took a nap, but I can comment about the Oracle.
As Deadlights correctly points out, Oracles automatically gain the Cure spells as they level up, you don't need to choose them as a spell known. Secondly Oracles are not proficient with Martial weapons, which a Scythe is. Do you mean to tell me that a 12 str spellcaster actually wasted one of their Revelations on Skill at Arms so they could ineffectually swing around a scythe? I mean, it wouldn't be quite as bad if they took Divine Power as a spell, but from what you've told me so far, I would be somewhat surprised if they knew such a spell existed.

You should probably have the Witch player talk to the Oracle and Wizard (using small words) and explain what are some of the things the classes are actually capable of.

[Otomodachi]

Is the DM a straight, single, male or a lesbian? Have you considered whether this flak you're taking is due to them trying to hit on your sister or not, who could easily have been complaining about you just for the fun of getting on your nerves? *knock on wood*

Sometimes people suck, whatever the whole story is here. :( I empathize.

[Slipperychicken]

Have you done anything previously to piss them off? Have you bragged about the damage your character can potentially deal? Have your characters trivialized encounters before?

Remind them that you scored a critical, and that's just what criticals do. They freaking kill stuff. If they can't handle that, then they can let you change the Keen or something else.

People get really scared when you roll 9d6 for damage at level 5, no matter why, or how improbably it happened, or whether it really adds up to much in the end. Numbers, although they can be scary if too high, usually aren't as scary because they don't have the same presence that rolling a handful of d6s does. I would've suggested making your damage more reliant on static bonuses (fewer dice, to be less scary), and possibly being less damage overall, to be less noticable/bannable at the table.


If you aren't married to doing damage, make a skillmonkey, or a mostly-support character. Then you aren't stealing the show by trivializing encounters, you're making everyone's jobs easier, and they feel like "they" win fights.

[NamelessNPC]

You don't "flee" or "vote with your feet" when you don't like the GM. That's not constructive criticism.
You show them how to optimize, or at least show them this thread, to teach them there are levels of optimization they don't know about.
If, then, you still don't like the way the campaign is played, are you are not willing to DM a campaign for them to show them how it's done (and there's no shame if you don't like to DM) then you leave, knowing that you did everything to help yout friends.

[Chained Birds]

They are really going to be calling OP! on you if you can actually get a Smite in.

DM: "A extra +5 on damage, and your AC and Atk are boosted up! Wait! Did you say the damage is doubled to a +10 because the creature is a Good Aligned Outsider?! That is the most amount of damage I have ever seen placed on a single attack ever! Isn't that right Wizard."
Wizard: "Yep. I can't compete with something like that. I feel inferior in every way possible and will never become a true threat by comparison."

[Krazzman]

You don't "flee" or "vote with your feet" when you don't like the GM. That's not constructive criticism.
You show them how to optimize, or at least show them this thread, to teach them there are levels of optimization they don't know about.
If, then, you still don't like the way the campaign is played, are you are not willing to DM a campaign for them to show them how it's done (and there's no shame if you don't like to DM) then you leave, knowing that you did everything to help yout friends.

As I said, If you feel that your criticism isn't bearing any fruit, vote with your feet, that way it will save your sanity a long way... but do this only IF you can find another group rather quick. I had one year of nearly not getting to play because of me being more or less kicked out of the group and it sucked...

As for your point of now being under DM supervision... that's not that bad if you get him to join YOUR side... maybe bake some cookies? DM's love cookies, if you know what I mean ;D

[Musco]

I have to agree that being called out by a Wizard (will end most battles on his own, or at least should, even without almost any optimization whatsoever, going only with PHB1 and Complete Arcane), a useless Oracle that does not know how to do her job, or even ANY good job in a fight (seriously, "aid another" would be a better use of her actions!) and a DM who forces a 10th-level barbarian (who can probably one-shot anything he throws at you at 5th level WITHOUT a crit) on the party as his pet is an ill omen.

Take the Rogue and the Witch, and run away. It might be the ONLY game in town, but you have just split in 2, so you guys have as many resources to play as they do right now, minus wonder-boy-the-10th-level-barbarian, so I say BONUS. Start your own game. There is a REASON that was the only game in town, said DM probably scared some good people away from gaming.

Start a game, and people will eventually come. Rest asured.

[Barstro]

Rather than walking, where you seem like the rude one, or trying to get people to play to your level when they don't want to, you could just play to their level.

Next fight should go like this;
Oracle: "I attack with my scythe"
You: "Well, if you want to handle melee... I cast Inflict Light Wounds."

Hell, that spell will probably do more damage.

I am amazed when people don't want to play as a team.

[Slipperychicken]

I am amazed when people don't want to play as a team.

You think that's bad? Personally, I went from "amazed" to "facepalm, then sigh" a few months ago. The last two campaigns I've played, the whole party of 7+ split up, each member on their own, every session, and had literally no reason to stick together on missions other than being paid as a group. Then they wondered why their characters didn't have enough session time to get things done.

They didn't split loot: just "I found it, it's mine. You want a share? Tough noogies".

Nor did they even want to coordinate tactics. The following exchange actually happened.


My Character: "Since we're going to be risking our lives in repeated mortal combat against the most elite fighters in the realm, we ought to discuss group tactics"

[entire rest of table groans and facepalms]

[Larpus]

What...the...hell...

Ok, Wizard's pissy because he failed a save and you're "overpowered" because your class as all saves as good saves. I bet my sitting muscle it was that.

Oracle....I feel your pain...character in the hands of a player who doesn't know what he/she's doing (whyyyyyyy 18 Cha on a Fighter that'll make no use of it?????? Physical beauty is not attached to any stat!!!!)...and all I can do is sigh...

Best to talk with the DM out of the table, try to get him on your side, explain your terms...if he's the DM, he must be smart enough to see that you weren't powergaming at all. And make him mess with the Oracle's build...half BAB 12 Str physically attacking as the first thing in battle is just painful...

If that's out of the window...make a Wizard or Oracle, optimize it and throw a "this is how it's done, newbs" right at them. Then ask if you can go back to your Anti.

[marcielle]

WAT. DA. 'ELL. A fullcaster runs at sumthin' wit a bloomin unenchan'ed weapon and is complaining tha you were more effectual. I suppose da wizard only casts evocs and da sneek runs in screamin' 'is lungs off.

If'n dey don't listen ta reason, 'ave 'em come on da forums and we'll give 'em a flamin' dey won't soon forget.

*Not condoning an actual flaming, but seriously, have them come onto the forums, and ask us if they are making a lick of sense. I assume they have computers and half an hour. There's optimization, and then there's knowing how the game works.
Just had to get the stereotypitalk outta my system.

[NightbringerGGZ]

You had a pretty massive hit, but you spent resources for the chance at that hit and you got a crit. Crits happen, and when they do they're supposed to be awesome. Aside from picking the Tiefling race and good gear, you aren't all that optimized.

It's hard to tell for sure without looking at the other player's characters, but I suspect you are focusing on game-play mechanics more than they are. I'd suggest you look for another group, as I suspect you're not going to have much fun with your current one.

[Chained Birds]

My favorite part was when the numbers were crunched to determine the Oracle's actual Strength score at the time. I was at first just a bit :smallconfused: at the idea of a melee Oracle questioning the Antipaladin, but afterwards I was :smallmad: to think that she has any right to point fingers at a Full Melee oriented build and call shenanigans on it because he can out damage her.

Oh, and the whole, had to spend resources to gain the ability to wield a scythe... I won't call foul on that as it could be a fluff thing and fluff usually triumphs over crunch when playing with friends... But not at the cost of actually making the character completely useless.

Second favorite was hearing her take CMW... As has been stated, She gets that one for FREE! The DM at least should have spotted that one and just told her not to pay for a valuable spell-known with something her deity just hands out to her.

Good to know that both the Witch and Rogue were doing their jobs. Don't quit on them!

I'd like to hear what the others have to say for themselves too as it would be nice to hear from someone else that was there. Maybe we (The Forum Posters) are missing something from this story?

[Thump]

My favorite part was when the numbers were crunched to determine the Oracle's actual Strength score at the time. I was at first just a bit :smallconfused: at the idea of a melee Oracle questioning the Antipaladin, but afterwards I was :smallmad: to think that she has any right to point fingers at a Full Melee oriented build and call shenanigans on it because he can out damage her.

Oh, and the whole, had to spend resources to gain the ability to wield a scythe... I won't call foul on that as it could be a fluff thing and fluff usually triumphs over crunch when playing with friends... But not at the cost of actually making the character completely useless.

Second favorite was hearing her take CMW... As has been stated, She gets that one for FREE! The DM at least should have spotted that one and just told her not to pay for a valuable spell-known with something her deity just hands out to her.

Good to know that both the Witch and Rogue were doing their jobs. Don't quit on them!

I'd like to hear what the others have to say for themselves too as it would be nice to hear from someone else that was there. Maybe we (The Forum Posters) are missing something from this story?

She doesn't believe me, even when I told her directly from the text, word for word, that she gets either all cure or inflict spells. Now she's just being unreasonable. The wizard is lightening up a bit, and he's letting me help build him a spell list or two for him, because he specializes in Evocation and picked divination and enchantment as neglected schools. DM also realized that she messed up a little bit, now that I've discussed this with her. She's just asked me to tone it down a little bit, but she told me that Wonder Barbarian isn't going to be around most of the time.

Oracle is still being stupid and unreasonable. She says that oracles of battle are supposed to be tanks, and she gets a ****ing +5 to hit and 2d4+2.

She doesn't even have power attack.


I'm tempted just to give up.

[Righteous Doggy]

Sometimes you play with idiots, fact of life in any game. Work with your DM to clear it up. If the DM disagrees and starts ruling things wrong, then you might run into issues. It sounds like a rather absurd situation though.

Could always show them the OGL or book and see what they say.
Edit: Of course, I'm just putting that out. If you feel the need to quit your allowed. If your not having fun with something theres no reason to keep it up.

[grarrrg]

She doesn't believe me, even when I told her directly from the text, word for word, that she gets either all cure or inflict spells. Now she's just being unreasonable....
Oracle is still being stupid and unreasonable. She says that oracles of battle are supposed to be tanks, and she gets a **** ing +5 to hit and 2d4+2.
I'm tempted just to give up.

The Oracle player is a lost cause (to you) at this point.
Your best tactic would be to explain it to the DM and see if the DM can reason with her.


She doesn't even have power attack.
Not that it would help her much at this point...

[Slipperychicken]

Sometimes you play with idiots

Honestly, if I didn't know the game, I too would assume by the name that "Battle Oracle" was supposed to be a tank.

Specializing evocation is also a fairly intuitive move that newer players do, because they are usually aware of 3.X's combat focus, and know that Evocation is the school for damage, but aren't so aware that other means can be quite efficient, too. Since we're conditioned to think more damage means you're better at combat, clearly specializing evocation makes you a better combatant, right?

Doing tons of damage (or just rolling large numbers of dice) is also one of the easiest ways to scare people into ban-mode. So although I agree that they're overreacting by our standards, I can't say I blame them, considering their relative system mastery.


It seems like these people just don't know the game as well as we do. This what I think it boils down to: Either they learn and come up to the OP's optimization level, or the OP comes down to their level, or the OP finds a way to use his/her relative skills without overshadowing or scaring anyone, or the OP finds a game that suits him/her better. Right now the group seems to be trying the second option: reducing the OP's power level.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Re: the Wizard:

Can you neglect divination in Pathfinder? I didn't know that. Anyway, evocation isn't that great of a school to specialize in, but enchantment and divination aren't all that hot anyway, so the wizard's about par for the course. I would recommend only filling the specialist slots (and maybe one or two others) with outright blast spells, though, enough to give him the option, but not enough to make it his only option, and then throw in staples like Haste/Slow to a combat list, and Invisibility Sphere to a non-combat list. After the first time he shuts down an entire encounter with Slow, he'll never want to go back.

As for blasting, Flaming Sphere got buffed in the Pathfinder conversion - it's not a bad option for a blaster, as it only uses subsequent move actions and can act as a space controller as well. Scorching Ray is great at levels where you get new rays. One of these should probably be the level 2 slot. Magic Missile for level 1? I don't know... You guys are only using the Pathfinder spell lists, right?

Anyway, you know better than I what to do there.

I think he DM's new suggestion is reasonable. I have a group of ten people playing at my table, and as the DM of this group, I am the best optimized among them. As a result, I am often personally helping the players find new options for their characters, etc., because I have a better proclivity towards book diving than they do. It's also helped to set the power level to a point where everybody does something cool and is just generally useful, but I don't have to challenge the players with something way over the players' ability to handle just because their characters are so strong. (I'd say the bar is set slightly below where you are at now; the party is level 5, and right now the biggest damage is coming from the level 4 Goliath (LA+1) Barbarian, who with Whirling Frenzy and Haste does three attacks for 2d6+10 each with a spiked chain, who will scale up with the Warblade dip he's planning next level.)

I do, however, have two players who are much better at optimizing than the rest of the group. One of them is still below me, but naturally better at optimizing than the rest of the group's power level, even with my assistance getting them there, and the other is at my level (and possibly higher). For them, I don't get involved in their character creation, set restrictions or anything, but simply ask that they follow the "don't be a jerk" rule. Usually that alone works--the first player (who is playing a Human Warblade 5) is step-laddering initiative with the Barbarian or the Rogue with White Raven Tactics in order to make them the star players, and/or using his old Steel Wind/Improved Trip trick to make melee laughably easy for the party (and the party is very melee-heavy), and the second player (a Psion 4, after his last character, a Summoner, threw himself upon the spear of his enemy to complete a blood-ritual and unleash his eidolon in an advanced form to turn the tide of battle) has optimized his character to deal 9d6+14 damage of the energy type of his choosing to five targets by 6th level with a 1st-level power (he definitely does have a better grasp of psionics than me, so he would be able to explain the specifics of how better than I, but I do know that it involves getting Empower Power for free with a psionic equivalent of Arcane Thesis that I can't recall), but scales his power's damage output according to the needs of the party by adjusting the power point output so as not to outshine anyone except in a last-ditch scenario. (EDIT with a note: both the Psion player and I are aware that at, especially in the higher levels, damage that can be expressed in dice rolls falls off the map entirely, when the save-or-die or the no-save-just-sucks roll in on Fog Clouds and start winning the day, but my game is also E6, and doing enough damage to insta-gib anything that progresses by class levels doesn't stop being bad, because things stop having more than six Hit Dice. :smalltongue:)

I mean, you can't stop a critical hit from happening, but you can scatter your limited-use damage bonuses among attacks so that instead of doing three potential encounter-enders a day, you do five or six that make the enemy shudder at the thought, but won't kill outright, allowing others (like the Rogue, Wizard, or even the Oracle) to do cleanup. It would be a small adjustment on your part, but it would be enough to keep the DM from having the puzzle over how to challenge you without making a bright red smear of the Oracle.

Speaking of the Oracle... If she's your sister, and she refuses to be reasonable about this, then you stop being reasonable and stop giving her rides to the game. If that's an option, of course. :smallbiggrin:

[Waker]

An Oracle with the Battle Mystery can be a decent combatant, but not with a 10-12 Str mod. Just ignore her.
Good to hear that the Wizard is coming around. Though Evocation isn't the best school choice, it is still fun.
I still disagree with the DM that you need to "tone it down" but whatever. As long as you aren't actively being limited, it's fine.
And don't give up. Make that Will save against Annoying Sister.