TWF Chargers?

[rweird]

I know everyone says TWF sucks without an extra source of damage, though I haven't seen any builds that use TWF+PA. I know that THF very well might do better damage, though Oversized TWF allows you to still PA with all attacks. (At a -2 penalty) Could someone explain how this doesn't work if it doesn't. From what I know, it would on a full attack be around x2 PA multipliers behind, though the TWF build would have at least 3 more attacks at level 20.

[Aegis013]

I believe it's very heavily dependent on accuracy. Your extra attacks are no good if they don't hit. THF is typically going to show a much better total modifier to hit than TWF will. Hitting much more often, even for a little less damage, will be more overall damage. I don't know the maths, but I believe that's a significant factor.

[rweird]

Tue, though two attacks (3 with haste/speed weapon) at -2 are the start as opposed to 1. With Whirling Frenzy four, if you go initiator Raging Mongoose would give you another 4 all at full -2.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There are some niche ways you can combine TWF and Power attack (though really, getting pounce is even more of a priority for TWF as THF can somewhat rely on a really big hit on a charge).

For combining TWF with PA there is the prg class Revenant Blade (PGtE) which as a capstone allows you to treat both ends of a Valenar double scimitar as a two handed weapon thus allowing 2: 1 Power Attack ratio.

The other that springs to mind is combining Dragonsplits (MM IV or V) which are one handed weapons but are treated as light for the purpose of TWF and a Exotic weapon master which has an stunt that either gives 2 times Strength bonus with 1 handed weapons or allows 2:1 ration for Power Attack.,

[Rubik]

The best way is to either rely on natural attacks, or use a two-handed weapon and armor spikes.

Or if you're a thri-kreen, TWF with two lances. Not sure what the penalties would be from it, though.

[eggs]

Girallon's Blessing or Diopsid race give 4 arms with very little hassle, allowing multiple two-handed power attacks.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Thri-Kreen or Diopsid do it best.

Either one should be able to pounce, of course, since we're talking about TWF.

I made a 6th-level Thri-Kreen character (for E6) who could ful attack on a charge, as a thought experiment. It didn't have as high of a to-hit bonus as a 2HF charger, but it had six attacks (five at highest BAB) as opposed to a 2HF's three (two at highest BAB). Not counting the bite, of course.

I think the problem is that the multipliers for charging favor 2HF in a big way. I could do 2d6+12+STR on each hit (more if Battle Leader's Charge interacts with pounce, and I've read that it does, but I'm not sure), but with a 2HF with the same build you could do 3d6+18+(STR*1.5) at, again, a higher to-hit bonus, with the same benefits added if Battle Leader's Charge applies on a charge. If an equal number of attacks hit (a consequence of lower bonuses for the TWF), the 2HF does more because each attack does more. This doesn't change unless and until the TWF charger starts hitting with twice as many attacks (or more), which you're not doing reliably unless you have more than twice as many attacks.

TW2HF is having your cake and eating it too... If you can manage the to-hit penalties, of course (but getting at least as many attacks to hit isn't hard, so you don't lose much except for being feat-starved).

[FMArthur]

TWF is pretty rough when you want options provided by other feats on top of it, but the end result can still work perfectly. You just wind up with a fairly narrowly focused melee style or a late bloom. ToB and magical melee classes can work it just fine because their class features provide their options and supporting power, but mundane melee classes outside of those do get hosed a bit by trying it because their feats carry more influence than their class features.

[rweird]

So TWF+PA is viable, just THF+PA is better. Thats what I though, thanks for explaining.

[Rubik]

So TWF+PA is viable, just THF+PA is better. Thats what I though, thanks for explaining.The biggest problem is that TWF requires a lot of work, constant full attacks, and a ton of money and feats, and it's still not as good as a single attack on a THF charge with a greatsword.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The biggest problem is that TWF requires a lot of work, constant full attacks, and a ton of money and feats, and it's still not as good as a single attack on a THF charge with a greatsword.

There are fringe cases that run contrary to this (a Thri-Kreen TWF having four times as many attacks and a Diopsid TW2HF having two two-handed attacks with all the benefits of both), and if we're talking about a TWF charger (as in, Lion Totem Barbarian's Pounce) then life gets a lot easier, but in general this is just the way the cards fall: in order to keep up with a 2HF doing the same thing, you need a lot of attacks to hit (or just to use two one-handed weapons, take the -4/-4, and still need quite a few attacks to hit, but not an obscene number).

[rweird]

Pounce is considered essential for chargers, it would be more so true with TWF chargers. Though at 20th level, I'm pretty sure that a TWF chargers Punce would out damage a THF charge without pounce. 9 attacks V.S. 1 attack, 1 attack might do 300 Damage but 9 attacks that deal around 150 still is respectable, especially when 4 of them are at full bonus -2. Sure THF might be able to do thousands of damage, but from a practical standpoint, TWF can work.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Pounce is considered essential for chargers, it would be more so true with TWF chargers. Though at 20th level, I'm pretty sure that a TWF chargers Punce would out damage a THF charge without pounce. 9 attacks V.S. 1 attack, 1 attack might do 300 Damage but 9 attacks that deal around 150 still is respectable, especially when 4 of them are at full bonus -2. Sure THF might be able to do thousands of damage, but from a practical standpoint, TWF can work.

Yes, but you are pointing out the difference between pounce and no pounce here, mainly, and not the difference between 2H and 2WF.

[rweird]

I was responding to someone who said that a single THF attack is better than a TWF full attack, THF will most be able to do thousands of damage, a TWF might do a thousand, but that goes into how much overkill is needed.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Yes, but you are pointing out the difference between pounce and no pounce here, mainly, and not the difference between 2H and 2WF.

If we're going to go there, though, on average an attack from a Leap Attacking Shock Trooper with a Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian dip is going to get three points of damage with a single attack on 2HF for every two points of damage with a single attack of a TWF or 1HF character built identically; let's assume both are using longswords, and one is gripping with two hands while the other is using one hand. The 2HF is doing 1d8+(3*BAB)+(1.5*STR), while the 1HF is doing 1d8+(2*BAB)+(1.5*STR). Literally, 3/2 for all the modifiers, except for before Leap Attack factors in, during which it's 3/2 for the STR mod, and 2/1 for the Power Attack mod, which doesn't really math well, because the variables are uneven (and I refuse to use letters for this thought exercise). On a pouncing full attack, the 2HF gets 2 attacks at levels 1-5, 3 attacks at 6-10, 4 attacks at 11-15, and 5 attacks at 16-20. The TWF gets 3 attacks at levels 1-5, 5 attacks at 6-10, 7 attacks at 11-15, and 8 attacks at 16-20. Assuming full BAB and the ability to grab the TWF feat tree as soon as it is available (which a Fighter can basically do).

The level-by-level breakdown of damage, assuming all attacks hit, would be (2HF is numerator; TWF is denominator):
Levels 6-10: 3/2 * 3/5 = 9/10
Levels 11-15: 3/2 * 4/7 = 12/14
Levels 16-20: 3/2 * 5/8 = 15/16

In other words, a TWF of a Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Power Attacking Leap Attacker using two one-handed weapons (either with Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, assuming you can still Power Attack with your off-hand in the doing, or not, and simply taking the -4/-4 penalty; I can't recall how this swings) is outdamaged at 5 (before Leap Attack comes in), but gets two new attacks for every new attack the 2HF gets at each new damage increment, while the 2HF is only getting 3/2 damage per attack. A TWF outpaces 2HF from level 6 straight through 15, and only loses out in the last five levels because they each only gain one attack at this point (and the 2HF's attacks are just better). Of course, these attacks are made at penalties if you are TWF, so the to-hit chance diminishes slightly (screwing with these odds somewhat) unless and until you throw in something like Wraithstrike or some other way to stop caring about AC, after which all attacks become equal (even the ones made at 15 below BAB) and the TWF wins out... Slightly. If all attacks hit on both sides, and usually only then.

If you are a Thri-Kreen advancing full Base Attack Bonus classes and using the same build as the TWF and 2HF chargers, but with Multiweapon Fighting instead of Two-Weapon Fighting, you get 5 attacks at level 1-5, 6 attacks at 6-8, 9 attacks at 9-10, 10 attacks at 11-14, 13 attacks at level 15, and 14 attacks at level 16-20, so the breakdown of damage (assuming all attacks hit) would work like this (2HF is numerator, MWF is denominator):
Level 6-8: 3/2 * 3/6 = 9/12
Level 9-10: 3/2 * 3/9 = 9/18
Level 11-14: 3/2 * 4/10 = 12/20
Level 15: 3/2 * 4/13 = 12/26
Level 16-20: 3/2 * 5/14 = 15/28

That's assuming all attacks hit. This won't happen. If we're talking about what needs to hit for the MWF to outperform the 2HF, however, the MWF would need 5/6 or more attacks to hit at levels 6-8, 5/9 or more at levels 9-10, 6/10 or more at levels 11-14, 6/13 or more at level 15, and 8/14 or more at levels 16-20. Assuming every 2HF attack hits. For every two attacks the 2HF whiffs, the MWF gets to take three off.

Any and all multipliers (such as those of Frenzied Berserker) benefit the 2HF, and all flat damage (such as Sneak Attack dice, Punishing Stance's 1d6, Battle Leader's Charge's +10) benefit the TWF and MWF.

In general, though,

TW2HF > MWF >>>> 2HF > TWF unless the slide reel shatters in favor of the multipliers (and it very well may).

[eggs]

Fiddling around with some pretty generic Oversized TWF and Polearm Barbarian/Fighter charger builds ("generic" including multipliers and bonus attacks not exceeding Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Pounce/Whirling Frenzy/Haste - what I consider sufficient output), it's looking like the Polearm user is going to expect more straight damage against average CR-appropriate ACs until ECL 12 (partially due to better damage multipliers, better use of Frenzy/Haste attacks, and partially due to higher attack bonus), then fall a bit behind in straight damage output.

That's not considering the Polearm user's added utility, 4 free feats or better tolerance to DR, but I think TWF could be viable for players who know what they're doing.

[Person_Man]

Are you wedded to Two Weapon Fighting for any particular reason, or do you just want a lot of attacks, or a lot of damage?

If you just want a lot of damage, then Two Handed Fighting will always be more efficient (unless you're artificially limiting what books you can use for some reason), because every Feat that you invest in TWF and workarounds like Oversized TWF is a Feat that you could instead invest in Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, Shock Trooper, Battle Jump, etc.

If you just want a lot of attacks, then there are many other more efficient methods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595), with Multiweapon Fighting and/or natural attacks being the most obvious candidates.

If you're wedded to using the inferior Two Weapon Fighting, I would suggest that you focus on effects that are triggered by an attacks (usually debuffs and status effects) instead of pure damage. Things like Vampiric Healing enchantment, Divine Spirit, Knock-Down, Knockback, Staggering Strike, Touch of Golden Ice, ability damage, Save or Suck/Lose effects, etc). You should also take other useful Feats that specifically require TWF, such as Reaping Talons (Full Round Action, attack everyone who attack you on the previous round, work well for multi-class Knights who fight mobs of enemies) or Double Hit (great for generating attacks of opportunity).

[rweird]

Okay, thank you all for your views. The main question that I was asking is it still a viable way to take out CR appropriate foes, in which I believe the answer is yes. Once again, thank you.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm pretty sure Whirling Frenzy only gives you one extra attack, regardless of what weapons you use.

Also, it's not just the number of attacks. It's that two attacks from a TWFer are WEAKER than one attack from a THFer, because they both deal the same damage (okay, if you go for different weapons, TWF gets +1), but TWF gets a -2 penalty to attack rolls and takes a good number of feat slots. Then we get into Power Attack. Sure, TWF can use it to the same effect, but that requires Oversized TWF, which basically is just a feat slot for +1 damage and the ability to take another feat. A THFer with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack is much more powerful than a TWFer with Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved, Oversized, and Power Attack. At the high levels, a TWFer with Pounce might out-damage a THFer without Pounce, but why wouldn't the THFer have a form of Pounce?

[killem2]

I would have to say, if you want to get stupid, and I mean really stupid, go thri-kreen, Crescent Knife (dragon 275), weapon finesse it up, make them master work, and get the bonuses galore on them.

A thri-kreen with 4 of those will make EIGHT, separate 1d4 + str mod attacks.



:smallyuk::smallconfused::smallbiggrin:

granted it won't let you charge sadly. :( But it will tear some stuff up.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm pretty sure Whirling Frenzy only gives you one extra attack, regardless of what weapons you use.

This is true, and was accounted for. That's why a TWF gets 3 attacks in my examples at entry levels (one for each weapon plus one Whirling Frenzy), plus two for every iterative attack (one for each weapon, which is accompanied by a feat that allows it) as per the normal TWF rules. It is for this reason that Whirling Frenzy actually skews the numbers in favor of 2HF (I included it anyway because you'd also be stupid not to take it if you're dipping Barbarian to make a Lion Totem pouncer. The two are like peanut butter and ice cream).


Also, it's not just the number of attacks. It's that two attacks from a TWFer are WEAKER than one attack from a THFer, because they both deal the same damage (okay, if you go for different weapons, TWF gets +1)

Actually, this is wrong in many cases. A Lion Totem Leap Attacking Shock Trooper does four thirds as much damage with two one-handed weapon attacks as he does with one two-handed weapon attack, as long as all three attacks are hitting. This remains true as both classes scale (which is why TWF continues to scale better than 2HF as long as the off-hand weapon continues to gain iterative attacks). Flat damage boosters (such as the Burning Blade and Battle Leader's Charge lines, the benefit of Punishing Stance, and really almost any maneuver that can be applied to a full attack) benefit TWF more than THF (because they increase the damage by a flat or variable amount per attack, so a lot of weaker hits will gain more damage boosts), and damage multipliers (such as the Improved Power Attack benefit of Frenzied Berserker) benefit the THF more. However, what is commonly accepted as the "baseline" (which is to say, not requiring several levels in specific PrC classes with possibly lethal consequences for the party) favors TWF on a roughly four-to-three basis as long as the TWF is getting two attacks for the 2HF's one.


but TWF gets a -2 penalty to attack rolls and takes a good number of feat slots. Then we get into Power Attack. Sure, TWF can use it to the same effect, but that requires Oversized TWF, which basically is just a feat slot for +1 damage and the ability to take another feat. A THFer with Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, and Leap Attack is much more powerful than a TWFer with Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved, Oversized, and Power Attack. At the high levels, a TWFer with Pounce might out-damage a THFer without Pounce, but why wouldn't the THFer have a form of Pounce?

Oh, you addressed that point.

In that case, I want to point out that two one-handed weapons grants the benefit of 2x STR instead of 1.5x STR, not counting Power Attack in any way.

Also, a TWFer with Pounce outdamages a 2HFer with Pounce as well as one without, assuming you have a method of getting all your attacks off (like Wraithstrike in some form), so a best-case scenario for all parties involved. I'm assuming all builds are equal except for the inclusion of the TWF line and OTWF for the purposes of deciding whether the TWF gets iterative attacks (and uses two one-handed weapons, because optimizing charging and not getting Power Attack on all your attacks is just wrong), which means that every single one of these things can be qualified with "the TWF does more damage in a best-case scenario, but the 2HF gets four free feats for his 'trouble'."

[rweird]

Jade Dragon: I was responding with that to someone that claimed a single attack by a 2HF on a charge would out do a TWF full attack, hence my reply.

[FMArthur]

I want to emphasize that diopsids are really wonderful for getting heavy damage TWF up and running very early and it's very efficient. They wield Large weapons, use two hands for each of their weapons, don't need Dex for TWF, and can get two-handed benefits with off-hand attacks (which still need to be made with one-handed weaponry, after you take OTWF).

With one flaw, a starting ECL 2 character could be attacking with a Large greatsword and a Large bastard sword with 1.5 strength on both (feats TWF and OTWF). Assuming 14 strength and not raging, your damage averages over 25.5 if both hit, more than just about anything with 2HD. 18 starting strength plus a rage puts you at 37.5 average (57 if you can land all 3 hits from a Whirling Frenzy), easily one-shotting anything within throwing distance of your ECL.

Strongarm Bracers and Gloves of the Balanced Hand keep your damage up later on without further feat investment. That 18 strength rager has an attack routine dealing 23/22.5/23/22.5 after passing BAB 6 with those items on. Damage flags a bit after about 10th level, but hopefully you'll have been expanding your bag of tricks with your class levels and the 3-4 other feats you have. If you've instead been pissing around in Samurai or something, you can always take Power Attack feat chains and put your damage into stupid levels that way. :smalltongue:

[animewatcha]

If you can fit in enough feats for bull rushing( like monk-fighter variant, rogue-fighter variant for two levels ), 2 or 6 levels of fighter for dungeoncrasher, and can convince your DM of you doing to downward strikes for knock-back to the floor ( think knockdown only since source is from 'above' ). Heck diospid, invent the oversized multiweapon fighting, and take the multiweapon fighting line for your two weapons and adding in unarmed strikes as a 'third weapon'. 'Knock-back' via the two normal weapons ( and 7 dungeon crashes ) then kick them while they are 'prone' for 3 more dungeoncrashes. So what is that? 10 x ( 6d8 + 3xSTRmod ). Sneak in travel devotion for extra cheese.

Is the above possible?

[RagnaroksChosen]

I had an awesome twf charger...

It was a race with a bite whirling frenzy pounce barb 1/scout 5
I liked chucking dice rather then optimizing but I think the more optimal thing would be to go whirling frenzy pounce barb 1/ scout 1/ something x then a PRC that increase skirmish or sneak attack(I think).


Was very fun to charge 4 attacks when raging. 3 attacks on a charge with +4d6 skirmish damage on each attach.. It was alot of fun.

[FMArthur]

If you can fit in enough feats for bull rushing( like monk-fighter variant, rogue-fighter variant for two levels ), 2 or 6 levels of fighter for dungeoncrasher, and can convince your DM of you doing to downward strikes for knock-back to the floor ( think knockdown only since source is from 'above' ). Heck diospid, invent the oversized multiweapon fighting, and take the multiweapon fighting line for your two weapons and adding in unarmed strikes as a 'third weapon'. 'Knock-back' via the two normal weapons ( and 7 dungeon crashes ) then kick them while they are 'prone' for 3 more dungeoncrashes. So what is that? 10 x ( 6d8 + 3xSTRmod ). Sneak in travel devotion for extra cheese.

Is the above possible?

You have to be Large or have Powerful Build to take Knockback. The diopsid race offers neither, unfortunately.

[animewatcha]

Either large or powerful build or obtain method to get large ( enlarge person ). Main thing is meeting requirements. Wha is diospid count as or isn't there a few templates that would grant powerful build / large?

Other than that, is the dungeoncrashing idea atleast sound?

-edit- checked dragon comp. Monstrous humanoid. Which means hello half-mino.

[killem2]

Oh, it appears I am mistaken, you CAN charge with two weapons or more.

Then yes, I would go crescent knife, thrikreen, and start lol'ing it up. Charging in with 8 attacks would just be awesome. Put on some Rhino Ride, then you could enhance those weapons with:

Chargebreaker: 8 chances to knock them prone.

Charging: Extra 2d6 per each attack, that with rhino hide is going to get funny.

Valorous: Double Damage of a charge attack.

Also, Gloryborn cost 600gp per weapon and allows 1 extra point of damage on a charge attack.

Also take the feat, Powerful Charge for an extra 1d8 as a thri-kreen. If you can get those bracers that let you wield a weapon one size larger than your self, make the knives large, and enjoy a 1d4+ blah per hit.


So to recap, if you could land all this stuff (assuming 20 str at level 1),

Min damage: 120
Max damage: 208

[FMArthur]

Either large or powerful build or obtain method to get large ( enlarge person ). Main thing is meeting requirements. Wha is diospid count as or isn't there a few templates that would grant powerful build / large?

Other than that, is the dungeoncrashing idea atleast sound?

-edit- checked dragon comp. Monstrous humanoid. Which means hello half-mino.

Well reading over the rest of the idea... I don't think multiweapon fighting is all that amazing here. You could get a single unarmed strike out of it but you'd need Improved and Greater MWF (epic feats) to get more as far as I can tell. If the MWF feat counts as TWF for the sake of Improved and Greater TWF there's no reason not to take it instead, but if it doesn't then you're probably better off with TWF.

I honestly don't see why being a diopsid even matters in this particular case; Dungeon Crasher damage is ridiculous and you can expect to pulp just about anything if you are able to get it on every attack in a full attack. Even without using an absurdly overpowered template. Just be a goliath.

[animewatcha]

Dieties and demigods and savage species has them as general feats according to savannah.

My group hardly ever uses online SRD, just the dragon mags and the books. One occasionally the Bastards Bloodlines book.

Multiweapon feat also replaces the two-weapon feat line ( specific call out ) for creatures with more than two arms. Diospids have a racial that allows them to ignore the dex requirement ( still need to meet others ) for feats/maybe-other-sterf-i-can't-remember-right-now. So the points normally going into dex could be put elsewhere. Half-mino versus goliath has a 12 point damage difference ( 3x 4fromSTRmod ) per shot attempt and the extra STR helps with bullrush attempts, accuracy, etc.

So be goliath only if looking to benefit from goliath-specific things like the barb rage thing.