Death, Undead, and the Dead

[Rubik]

Wights are awful. A single one could go on a killing spree while creating more like itself, and spell the end of a campaign world if it's allowed to get a foothold. A single night of killing could produce hundreds of additional wights, each capable of doing the exact same thing as soon as it's spawned.

The same goes for shadows, wraiths, mohrgs, and spectres.

So now the question remains: Why don't people in these worlds burn their dead? Alternately, they should always raise them as skeletons for use as farm labor or whatever. That way they can't be raised as other types of undead (and skeletons are harmless unless controlled and commanded to run amok).

[Namfuak]

Wights are initially made when someone is drained to zero levels, so burning the dead would not do much to prevent any one wight from being made (since it would already be a wight soon after being killed). As for other undead, for the most part there really are not that many that rise, because there are usually very few necromancers, and usually rightfully they are shunned or executed if they are found out by society. Keep in mind, of course, that actually animating dead is a 4th level spell, so only a 7th level or higher wizard can do it. Combined with the lack of necromancers, the chance of any particular person having both the ability and interest to raise dead, AND the intention to use it to harm the public, is minimal. If we are talking about a setting where 7th level characters are more common, wights and regular undead will not be much of a threat to civilization in the first place.

Also, why stop at burning? It would be better to eat the dead, so that they have no chance of coming back.

[Rubik]

Actually, necromancers should be a very valuable resource for any society. They can prevent the nastier sorts of undead from arising by turning bodies into other (less destructive) forms, and skeletons make awesome farmhands.

Why press the masses into serfitude when a single skeleton/ox team could do three times the work (24/7, rather than 8 hours/day) without the need to eat, drink, sleep, take sick-leave or maternity leave, or go on vacations?

[Namfuak]

Actually, necromancers should be a very valuable resource for any society. They can prevent the nastier sorts of undead from arising by turning bodies into other (less destructive) forms, and skeletons make awesome farmhands.

Why press the masses into serfitude when a single skeleton/ox team could do three times the work (24/7, rather than 8 hours/day) without the need to eat, drink, sleep, take sick-leave or maternity leave, or go on vacations?

The peasants would probably rebel at that point, since they would be out of work. Heck, anyone who relied on unskilled manual labor for their income would be out of a job. Craftsmen could use skeletons for their aid another benefits and only take on one or two apprentices to learn to replace them when they retire, aristocrats would no longer need servants. The army could be replaced with skeletons. Eventually, the intelligent people left would figure out how to make a skeleputer, and instantaneous transfer of information would begin.

Basically, they would have the problem that we have today with machines, but with skeletons instead.

[Rubik]

Then just start training everyone in whatever forms of magic they're suitable for. It's not like the mages and priests wouldn't rule over everyone anyway.

Then you start training everyone to kill off all the horrible monsters that are always threatening civilization. Turn monster-hunting into a national pastime-slash-exportation/exploitation business.

[Namfuak]

Then just start training everyone in whatever forms of magic they're suitable for. It's not like the mages and priests wouldn't rule over everyone anyway.

Then you start training everyone to kill off all the horrible monsters that are always threatening civilization. Turn monster-hunting into a national pastime-slash-exportation/exploitation business.

And then as they die off, raise them as skeletons to join the workforce!

Brilliant! (https://whyweprotest.net/asset-proxy/0f646dbd214789c9052e78d1174913bec000f2ed/687474703a2f2f693330342e70686f746f6275636b65742e63 6f6d2f616c62756d732f6e6e3137312f4e69636b506f74726f 736b692f596f752f4252494c4c49414e542e6a7067/http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn171/NickPotroski/You/BRILLIANT.jpg)

[Randomguy]

Then just start training everyone in whatever forms of magic they're suitable for. It's not like the mages and priests wouldn't rule over everyone anyway.


Alternatively, the general populace could just move from relying on unskilled labour to skilled labour: Even commoners have craft as a class skill.

[Rubik]

Alternatively, the general populace could just move from relying on unskilled labour to skilled labour: Even commoners have craft as a class skill.Which is outshone by magic in every conceivable way. As soon as anyone gets Fabricate they're all defunct anyway.

Magic IS the skilled labor.

[Nizaris]

I could actually see a city that relies on undead manual labor and the citizens live a life of luxury where wealth is measured in the undead one owns. The more undead servants you own the less work you need to do. The poorer folks work as over seers for the undead, police, clerics, other important jobs that the undead can't do. So think the American south when slavery existed. Not having to work was a sign of power.

[Randomguy]

Which is outshone by magic in every conceivable way. As soon as anyone gets Fabricate they're all defunct anyway.

Magic IS the skilled labor.

Fabricate still requires the appropriate craft check, so if you want a nice diamond ring, for example, you've either got to find a wizard who invested points in craft (gem cutting) or pay someone to do it by hand.


Magic does it better, of course, but in a world where the average person has an Int, Cha and Wis of 10-11, it'll be hard for most people to succeed in wizardry. Craftsmanship is the next best option. That, or profession. Or forgery. Or sleight of hand. Or preform. Or... well, you get the picture.

[Gamer Girl]

So now the question remains: Why don't people in these worlds burn their dead? Alternately, they should always raise them as skeletons for use as farm labor or whatever. That way they can't be raised as other types of undead (and skeletons are harmless unless controlled and commanded to run amok).

The easy answer: The world has lots of clerics, paladins and other divine agents that have the power to destroy undead. So even if a large group of undead showed up, there are plenty of forces that can handle them. And this does not even count the fighters, wizards and others too.

Also wights and other undead don't often have much intelligence. A wight for example only has an intelligence of 11. So they won't have much of a brilliant strategy or plans or such. And a 'mob of random undead' are easy enough to take out.


But you might also note that through out history a lot of societies did burn their dead. For the simple reasons that it took a lot of time to bury a body, a lot of effort to bury a body and they often did not have enough room to bury a body. Even today, cremation is still common for dead bodies.

[Rubik]

The easy answer: The world has lots of clerics, paladins and other divine agents that have the power to destroy undead. So even if a large group of undead showed up, there are plenty of forces that can handle them. And this does not even count the fighters, wizards and others too.By the time they get word of it entire cities could be gone. Sure they might wipe most of them out, but I doubt the thousands of dead would appreciate that fact.


Also wights and other undead don't often have much intelligence. A wight for example only has an intelligence of 11. So they won't have much of a brilliant strategy or plans or such. And a 'mob of random undead' are easy enough to take out.11 Int is average for a human. It doesn't take nearly that much to think, "okay, everyone fears and hates me, gotta hide".


But you might also note that through out history a lot of societies did burn their dead. For the simple reasons that it took a lot of time to bury a body, a lot of effort to bury a body and they often did not have enough room to bury a body. Even today, cremation is still common for dead bodies.Right, but most D&D societies don't seem to, at least according to all the fluff I've read. You'd think that with monsters that could wipe out entire civilizations spawning from people who die (due to their exponential reproductive capabilities) people would be a bit more on the ball with things like this.

For that matter, why hasn't the wightocalypse wiped them all out? All it would take would be one wight that thought stealth would be a good idea as it murders its victims.

[Fable Wright]

You'd think that with monsters that could wipe out entire civilizations spawning from people who die (due to their exponential reproductive capabilities) people would be a bit more on the ball with things like this.

For that matter, why hasn't the wightocalypse wiped them all out? All it would take would be one wight that thought stealth would be a good idea as it murders its victims.

The reason? Adventurers. There is a reason that these violent insane people are an accepted and (mostly) treasured part of society (aside from their great wealth and ability to kill you where you stand): The fact that they keep the monsters in check. If push came to shove and the Wightocalypse started, clerics and/or wizards could cordon off the afflicted area, even if it was miles around. From that point? Raze everything to the ground. Fireball: A tool of mass destruction. One mid-level sorcerer could raze an entire town with nothing but the spell, and sorcerers with reserve feats even more. Flight is an advantage that the wights can't match, and that almost any spellcaster can; it makes the spellcasters invulnerable while they wipe out the area. Higher level spells can probably destroy the town that harbored the wights in one casting. Finally, if push really came to shove, a cleric or wizard of sufficient level could Apocalypse from the Sky, and just wipe out absolutely everything in the area. All things considered, the thing that the wight least wants is attention drawn to itself. And raising a massive army? That is drawing attention to itself.

[Rubik]

But that's assuming they find out about it in time. And cordoning off a city doesn't work if they're incorporeal undead, like shadows.

And my point stands about it being too late for the victims.

Plus, a massive army is only noticeable if it's out in the open. Kill a family. Then go to other houses, kill them. Then kill others. And then have everyone stay inside when it comes time for the sun to rise. Hide out underground in the sewers, or out in the forest, or someplace. Don't show your head unless you absolutely have to.

But by then everyone's undead.

Nip the problem before it has a chance to take root, and the populace won't have to worry about it in the first place.

[kabreras]

You said it yourself, a wright have 11 int, thats enough to think that if she bring an army up and rase cities some mad adventurers will pop on their head and terminate them without a trought.

It may be undead, but it prefere to say that way than dead.

and about the victims, since when does adventurers do care about colaterals damages ?

[Rubik]

and about the victims, since when does adventurers do care about colaterals damages ?We're not talking adventurers. We're talking people that don't want to be killed by undead so they prevent the problem by burning their dead, or turning them into skeletons.

Would YOU want to die a horrible death and have your body turned into an unholy abomination just so some adventurers can get your tasty XP?

[kabreras]

Burning someone have never prevented a wright to rise, or any uncorporeal undead (watching supernatural too much).

Raising skelys is an other problem:
1 it is an evil act
2 i am not sure that an animated boddy of someone would prevent an uncorporeal undead from raising from it

[Rubik]

Burning someone have never prevented a wright to rise, or any uncorporeal undead (watching supernatural too much).

Raising skelys is an other problem:
1 it is an evil act
2 i am not sure that an animated boddy of someone would prevent an uncorporeal undead from raising from itNegative energy isn't evil. And mindless things not composed of elemental evil are morally neutral (since by WotC's logic they don't have the agency to have a morality). Therefore, using negative energy to raise mindless undead is neutral. The [evil] tags on skeletons, zombies, and the Animate Dead spell are incorrect, because they can't be evil.

Also, I seem to recall having read that you can't get multiple types of undead out of one living creature. Don't remember where, though.

[kabreras]

and lastly the wight get his spawn to pop in 1D4 round so peoples would have to burn their relatives in less than 20s before they pop if burning even prevent it

[Rubik]

and lastly the wight get his spawn to pop in 1D4 round so peoples would have to burn their relatives in less than 20s before they pop if burning even prevent itBurning the dead would be to prevent these things from arising spontaneously. It happens. In a world where cremation occurred every time someone died, it would happen a lot less. Then you wouldn't have these things popping up but very VERY rarely...though that doesn't prevent evil clerics and such going on wightocalypse sprees.

Also, watch out for those holy arrows. They can make wights faster than anything.

[Shadowknight12]

Because folklore. Don't go any further, that's the answer. Everything that doesn't make sense? Yeah, that's D&D trying to emulate all of folklore everywhere without even understanding how its own rules work (see: wightocalypse), and then several writers contradicting each other on how necromancy, undead and negative energy work.

Don't dwell on it. Don't try to make sense of things as they are written. That way lies madness.

Instead, just houserule and refluff to your heart's content, and find a way it works for you. The first rules I ever altered in D&D were those for the undead, and I've been pouring over negative energy, necromancy and undeath ever since. Let my experience be of some use to you: don't take things as they are. You cannot reconcile things that are in direct contradiction to each other. Instead, adjust the system to the goals you want to achieve.

I remade the entire undead miniomancy sub-system, giving undead a pool of points that were spent each day, and also when inflicting ability/energy drain/damage, and also by positive energy. I also restricted spawn abilities in a way that makes sense (you cannot create spawn if you are under someone else's control, whether that is the control of a necromancer or the control of someone who spawned you), and I retooled undeath and negative energy in general to remove the extremely contradictory alignment issues around it.

Let me conclude with this: Undeath needs fixing. So I fixed it. I can't say that what I did works for you, so go ahead and give it a try yourself. Don't lose your mind trying to make sense of illogical things.

[Calanon]

Burning the dead would be to prevent these things from arising spontaneously. It happens. In a world where cremation occurred every time someone died, it would happen a lot less. Then you wouldn't have these things popping up but very VERY rarely...though that doesn't prevent evil clerics and such going on wightocalypse sprees.

Also, watch out for those holy arrows. They can make wights faster than anything.


>Be 7th lvl Artificer
>Create a Wand of Enervation that is useable 1/per day
>Enervate a single random drunk commoner
>Wightocalypse begins
>Not a single **** was given that day.jpeg
>Look up
>See Atropus
>Oh ****.jpeg
>Adventurers come in
>Realize your the badguy
>Open the door!
>Get down!
>Everybody walk the Dinosaur! :smalleek:

...I REGRET NOTHING! :smallamused:

[Larkas]

Negative energy isn't evil. And mindless things not composed of elemental evil are morally neutral (since by WotC's logic they don't have the agency to have a morality). Therefore, using negative energy to raise mindless undead is neutral. The [evil] tags on skeletons, zombies, and the Animate Dead spell are incorrect, because they can't be evil.


Alignment: Always neutral evil.

Anyways, on the subject, there are various reasons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation#Religious_views_on_cremation) people wouldn't burn their dead. Just because it would make sense to burn them, it doesn't mean people would burn them or even desire to burn them. Anyways, like kabreras said, burning people wouldn't be much help unless you could burn a corpse in 24 seconds max. Talk about mourning...

[Steward]

Let me conclude with this: Undeath needs fixing. So I fixed it. I can't say that what I did works for you, so go ahead and give it a try yourself. Don't lose your mind trying to make sense of illogical things.

I agree 100%. If you're looking for some kind of consistent, complete, wholly coherent worldview in a fantasy world described in thirty separate books written by dozens of people, you're going to hit a wall pretty fast. Even Core has internal inconsistencies. Especially when you wade into things like that nature of death, the afterlife, and morality, which are complicated enough in the real world even after thousands of years of philosophers have been cogitating on it (compared how many millennia do you think it took to write 'Monster Manual I'?)

Your best bet is to come up with your own solutions to these issues. Why haven't wights or shadows overrun your campaign world yet? If your campaign isn't about them, you can get away with ignoring or, if pressed, handwaving the issue. Maybe high-level necromancers don't exist (yet)? Maybe the government or some kind of religious enterprise has set up an army of paladins and clerics to act as undead pest control. Maybe all the gods got together and set up some kind of Pact Primeval that magically forbids that sort of thing.

Or, if you want, you could not do any of that, and say that society can use undead as slave labor. You could set up a whole system like what Rubik set up.

[Righteous Doggy]

Just throwing it out there, but I don't think its supposed to be a common occurance that people just pop up as undead. Its probably pretty rare that necromancers or paladins or adventurers pass through. Commoners are simple people, they never get past level one most of the time. Think of how often you see a bear eh?

[kabreras]

On a side note, i think quite some gods (even evil ones) would show up pretty fast if something like a wightpocapypse was going to happend (and portfolio sense would have them knowing before it even set up)

All the gods need followers, and they need to take care of them a bit so they would prevent the world beeing overtaken by undeads.

[Calanon]

Just throwing it out there, but I don't think its supposed to be a common occurance that people just pop up as undead. Its probably pretty rare that necromancers or paladins or adventurers pass through. Commoners are simple people, they never get past level one most of the time. Think of how often you see a bear eh?

Well seeing as how I used to live near a Zoo and was a frequent visitor I can honestly say that I saw a bear atleast once, maybe twice a day... So... When can I start taking levels in Artificer? Omni-ficer here I come! :smallbiggrin:


On a side note, i think quite some gods (even evil ones) would show up pretty fast if something like a wightpocapypse was going to happend (and portfolio sense would have them knowing before it even set up)

All the gods need followers, and they need to take care of them a bit so they would prevent the world beeing overtaken by undeads.

Actually, I'm confident a wightopocalypse would cause a divine civil war (I'm not sure if Ao would allow the gods to just pop down and defend there people...) and I'm sure in Oerth the gods wouldn't do jack since they don't really care about there worshipers... Eberron? PFFT! There are no Gods in Eberron... well... not gods that care...

To summarize? Everyone start taking levels in Ur-Priest... that is the only way you will ever succeed with divine power... :smallannoyed:

[Righteous Doggy]

Well seeing as how I used to live near a Zoo and was a frequent visitor I can honestly say that I saw a bear atleast once, maybe twice a day... So... When can I start taking levels in Artificer? :smallamused:

I'm sure we're all scared of the bear invasion :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

Wights are awful. A single one could go on a killing spree while creating more like itself, and spell the end of a campaign world if it's allowed to get a foothold. A single night of killing could produce hundreds of additional wights, each capable of doing the exact same thing as soon as it's spawned.

The same goes for shadows, wraiths, mohrgs, and spectres.

So now the question remains: Why don't people in these worlds burn their dead? Alternately, they should always raise them as skeletons for use as farm labor or whatever. That way they can't be raised as other types of undead (and skeletons are harmless unless controlled and commanded to run amok).

House rules are generally the answer, or perhaps some setting-specific persona (deity?).

Perhaps undead are somehow tied to the location where they were made. Perhaps they need a source of negative energy to feed upon, and 'starve' if too many of them are in an area. Perhaps there's a treaty between the gods of life and the gods of undeath that neither shall be wiped out (after all, if the living are gone... there's no more source of materials for undead).

As for the 'not running amok' thing... that depends on campaign-specific stuff. In some, uncontrolled mindless undead just follow their last order. In others, they're in some way inimical to life, and turn towards hunting the living if they're uncontrolled.

[Calanon]

In some, uncontrolled mindless undead just follow their last order. In others, they're in some way inimical to life, and turn towards hunting the living if they're uncontrolled.

Imagine it, an entire empire wiped off the face of the earth, only for its undead slaves to still endlessly toil on its fields... growing food that will never be eaten, building houses that will never be lived in, managing stores knowing that nobody will ever come in... :smallamused:

[kabreras]

Actually, I'm confident a wightopocalypse would cause a divine civil war (I'm not sure if Ao would allow the gods to just pop down and defend there people...) and I'm sure in Oerth the gods wouldn't do jack since they don't really care about there worshipers... Eberron? PFFT! There are no Gods in Eberron... well... not gods that care..

AO would kick their ass again like he did in times of troubles if they dont do it, he prety much ordered the gods to take care of their followers at this time.

But fact is that faerun is so full of high level casters that no event like that would have a chance to happend before some level 20 bartender show up.

On the others worlds i think it would be a good event to start a time of troubles like global event on the setting (could actually make some awesome campaign)

[Darth Stabber]

Game I'm running now has an empire that runs off zombie labor since the necroindustrial revolution, infact there are so many undead and so much necromancy that deadbodies tend to just automatically animate, people automatically naturally develop Tomb Tainted soul, and every once in a great while people become necropolitans with trying. All thes undead are put to work in factories. The peasants revolted due to poor working condition, devaluation of labor, and massive unemployment. The nobility and merchant class wiped them out and put them to work. Since that point they have become a massive economic power due to their remarkably low labor costs an invention of mass production. They also pay for the importation of corpses from other countries (since they no longer have a peasant caste), to keep things growing. Those without the penchant for magic become skilled craftsmen or starve. The number of magicians is fairly high, and they are put to work as factory foremen. And the cult we jas has been tickled about how ordered their society has become, and how big the tithes have gotten since the economy took off.

[hewhosaysfish]

On the subject of burial in DnD:


I feel it's worth mentioning the Hallow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hallow.htm) spell here:

Area: 40-ft. radius emanating from the touched point
Duration: Instantaneous
...
any dead body interred in a hallowed site cannot be turned into an undead creature.
...
Material Component:
Herbs, oils, and incense worth at least 1,000 gp, plus 1,000 gp per level of the spell to be included in the hallowed area.

Sure it adds 1000gp (and a 5th level spell slot) onto the cost of your cemetary but if you only leave the dead in the ground for a limited time before moving them to an ossuary (in the Hallowed area of course) then you could stack a lot of dead guys in a limited area.

Of course it may work out cheaper to have a non-Hallowed cemetary and just hire a night-watchman. How many cadaver's can you dig up before the torch-and-pitchfork bearing mob arrives? Of course, if a would-be necromancer can somehow scrape together enough zombies that he doesn't have to be afraid of a mob anymore then things can start to snowball from there...


As to alternative funerary practices:

I've sometimes thought that societies concerned about but not immediately threatened by necromancy might practice feeding the dead to scavengers (as with Sky Burial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial)). The bodies would be ritually dismembered and exposed at a traditional place, perhaps with someone standing vigil (ceremonially) in case some necromancer tries to steal the remains and piece them back together.

It would (I think) be more cost-effective than cremation and leave nothing but broken bones.

It wouldn't scale up so well for cities, although I could imagine temples to the local God of Death dotted around the outskirts of major cities, with towering spires constantly surrounded by vast flocks of carrion birds. Or maybe they would just keep a pack of 'sacred' hyenas/mountain lions/owlbears/gelatinous cubes in the temple - if I wanted to use this in a setting I'd probably research the amount of meat a hyena/whatever eats in a month versus the death rate of a middle ages city (adjusted to acccount for healing spells...)

If 7th level casters are rare but not impossible in the setting then rich and important people might get a sort of lying-in-state period until either their next-of-kin find a 9th level cleric or the time limit for Raise Dead (1 day per caster level) expires, whichever comes first. Obviously if they're either common or entirely unknown then there won't be any reason to wait.
If 13th level casters are also (potentially but not immediately) available then the families may keep back a finger-bone or the skull or something for possible future Ressurections. I can easily imagine a noble house keeping these bits long after a Ressurection would be feasible, for reasons of family pride, and building up a substantial mausoleum.

I can also imagine these customs spreading to non-nobles, either as the affectations of an aspiring merchant class or as traditional (if futile) gestures of respect performed by everyone.


From the necromancer's POV:

If people are effectively disposing of their dead (such that an aspiring necromancer can't get hold of them) then I can see several possibilities:
1) Get to corpses before everyone else does... by killing them yourself. Of course, you haven't got your unstoppable undead horde yet so you'll have to be careful: live in the woods and ambush travellers; live in the sewers and ambush beggars/whores/urchins/other-people-who-wont-be-missed; set up a nice inn/brothel/asylum/barbershop and hope that noone notices the the number of people coming out is not the same as the number going in; or if a country allows slavery, you could buy some and then tell people "they escaped".
2) Get to corpses before everyone else does...by raiding battlefields or areas hit by disease or natural disaster. There's a risk of getting stabbed or catching plague or whatever in addition to anti-necromancy sentiment but there's also the chance to to grab a huge bounty of "raw materials". As a counter to this, people may customarily break the legs or crack the skull of a body they don't have time to give a proper funeral, "as a mark of respect".
3) Animals. Seriously, compare the stats of a zombie commoner to the stats of a zombie cow. MOOOOOO!
4) Hook up with the cult of an Evil Death God. Most of the above is written under the assumption of a Lawful Neutral undead-hating Death God but Evil undead-loveing ones are just as common in DnD and his/her worshippers will be a useful resource. They can provide muscle for killing people or stealing bodies, they can provide cheap labour for buying slaves or livestock and (more uniquely) if you have a large enough population of cultists then you can found your own xenophobic, inbred village in some isolated location and "stockpile" the corpses of your followers over multiple generations (plus the corpses of any nosy outsiders who ask too many questions). You may want to become a lich for this one or train up an apprentice. Is anyone else amused by the idea of a setting where chopping up a corpse and feeding it wild animals is regarded as respectful and honourable while interring the dead in the ground or a mausoleum is the subversive and evil option that the bad guys do in secret?

[lorddrake]

Usually on my setting necromancy is not evil, so a good or neutral necromancer can stop a undead surge easily. With undead!

[Rubik]

Anyways, on the subject, there are various reasons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation#Religious_views_on_cremation) people wouldn't burn their dead. Just because it would make sense to burn them, it doesn't mean people would burn them or even desire to burn them. Anyways, like kabreras said, burning people wouldn't be much help unless you could burn a corpse in 24 seconds max. Talk about mourning...Those wouldn't last long, as the undead would probably eat them all. Darwinism at its best.

As for the alignment in the Monster Manual? Totally wrong. Uncontrolled mindless undead stand there doing nothing unless commanded to do something. This could be anything from "attack any living thing you see that isn't me" to "plant these daisies and ensure they get 50 cc of water every day."

They don't have the intelligence to be evil. If Int 2 animals can't (according to the rules), then Int -- undead definitely can't (unless they're demon corpses or something that definitely IS made of refined evil essence -- which most zombies and skellies aren't).

Note that German shepherds have an average IQ of ~60, which is enough to qualify them for the Polish army. If a human with that intellect can't be evil, then a mindless automaton created with bones certainly wouldn't.

[Shadowknight12]

Those wouldn't last long, as the undead would probably eat them all. Darwinism at its best.

As for the alignment in the Monster Manual? Totally wrong. Uncontrolled mindless undead stand there doing nothing unless commanded to do something. This could be anything from "attack any living thing you see that isn't me" to "plant these daisies and ensure they get 50 cc of water every day."

They don't have the intelligence to be evil. If Int 2 animals can't (according to the rules), then Int -- undead definitely can't (unless they're demon corpses or something that definitely IS made of refined evil essence -- which most zombies and skellies aren't).

Note that German shepherds have an average IQ of ~60, which is enough to qualify them for the Polish army. If a human with that intellect can't be evil, then a mindless automaton created with bones certainly wouldn't.

But the rules say they're evil. It's right there in the MM. I warn you yet once more: Turn from that path. That way lies madness. You will lose your sanity like countless gamers before, trying to make sense of things that have none. The rules concerning negative energy and undead do not make sense and have no coherency or consistency beyond a mere veneer.

[2xMachina]

I think it's cause WoTC was afraid of being accused of being pro-necromancy etc. So, they tag everything that society may dislike as Evil.

[Righteous Doggy]

I think it's cause WoTC was afraid of being accused of being pro-necromancy etc. So, they tag everything that society may dislike as Evil.

Erm... A company being afraid of being called pro-necromancy? Thats a strange fear.

I think its to give you a reason to call something an enemy. Every other orc/goblin/drow is a bad guy. Every other dragon is a crazed greedy monster. Just comes with the genre. Most undead just happen to be powered by an unholy negative energy that requires a usually evil intention and drives them mad or strips them of sanity/humanity in the process. + you know, digging up graves, defiling the corpses, sometimes locking the soul in the body as part of the ritual. Usually evil.

And people are comparing them to robots? Robot overlords are a fear, why not undead overlords! Never know when they'll decide to runt he place for themselves or gain sentience.

[2xMachina]

Erm... A company being afraid of being called pro-necromancy? Thats a strange fear.

I think its to give you a reason to call something an enemy. Every other orc/goblin/drow is a bad guy. Every other dragon is a crazed greedy monster. Just comes with the genre. Most undead just happen to be powered by an unholy negative energy that requires a usually evil intention and drives them mad or strips them of sanity/humanity in the process. + you know, digging up graves, defiling the corpses, sometimes locking the soul in the body as part of the ritual. Usually evil.

And people are comparing them to robots? Robot overlords are a fear, why not undead overlords! Never know when they'll decide to runt he place for themselves or gain sentience.

It could affect sales. It gives detractors ammo to shoot with. (Some people harped on D&D being satanic. They'll just throw necromancy on board)

They avoided using the word Devil/Demon back then.

[Shadowknight12]

I think its to give you a reason to call something an enemy. Every other orc/goblin/drow is a bad guy. Every other dragon is a crazed greedy monster. Just comes with the genre. Most undead just happen to be powered by an unholy negative energy that requires a usually evil intention and drives them mad or strips them of sanity/humanity in the process. + you know, digging up graves, defiling the corpses, sometimes locking the soul in the body as part of the ritual. Usually evil.

Exactly. D&D has a very strong tradition of "we're here to kill things and take their stuff, so let's not get bogged down with ethical issues. Those things are okay to kill because the rules say so" which I have been slowly eroding and boycotting ever since I've learnt of it.

[Rubik]

Exactly. D&D has a very strong tradition of "we're here to kill things and take their stuff, so let's not get bogged down with ethical issues. Those things are okay to kill because the rules say so" which I have been slowly eroding and boycotting ever since I've learnt of it.So you take your DM's kick-in-the-door dungeoncrawl and add black-and-grey morality issues?

[2xMachina]

You can always opt for game where the RP element is more prominent than a kill everything game.

[Shadowknight12]

So you take your DM's kick-in-the-door dungeoncrawl and add black-and-grey morality issues?

I've never played a game where the style was anywhere near kick-in-the-door dungeoncrawl. I've steered clear from such things precisely because I knew I wouldn't enjoy them.

No, what I meant was that I try to raise awareness of such issues and slowly try to incorporate change for the future. 3e was influenced by the massive amounts of houserules people had on 2e. 4e was influenced by the "balance!" outcry from 3e's era. If I can get more and more people to realise that you can have moral complexity in D&D, that it's okay to portray creatures as people and not as walking bags of XP and loot with a big "EVIL" stamp on their foreheads, perhaps I won't have to make extensive houserules when 5e or 6e come along.

It's all about letting people know that D&D's rules are not sacrosanct, that it's okay to question and challenge established traditions, and that you shouldn't be afraid to take a stand for what you believe in and make the changes you believe are right for your game.

[Namfuak]

I've never played a game where the style was anywhere near kick-in-the-door dungeoncrawl. I've steered clear from such things precisely because I knew I wouldn't enjoy them.

No, what I meant was that I try to raise awareness of such issues and slowly try to incorporate change for the future. 3e was influenced by the massive amounts of houserules people had on 2e. 4e was influenced by the "balance!" outcry from 3e's era. If I can get more and more people to realise that you can have moral complexity in D&D, that it's okay to portray creatures as people and not as walking bags of XP and loot with a big "EVIL" stamp on their foreheads, perhaps I won't have to make extensive houserules when 5e or 6e come along.

It's all about letting people know that D&D's rules are not sacrosanct, that it's okay to question and challenge established traditions, and that you shouldn't be afraid to take a stand for what you believe in and make the changes you believe are right for your game.

I honestly do not see the point of alignment in the first place. It does not have internal consistency, and ultimately detracts from roleplaying because it forces characters into archetypes, especially when alignment restrictions are considered.

But I think we are getting off-topic. One big thing preventing the undead apocalypse is that, at least for the first undead, there has to be someone who actually raises or otherwise creates him. Assuming we are dealing with rational necromancers (IE: Not cultists from Elder Evils who want to destroy the world for the evuls), they have no reason to try to kill off everyone. If they want to take over the world, it would be pretty boring if they killed absolutely everyone and were just left with their zombie hordes, so they probably will not. If they just want some servants, it is still beneficial for them to have a supply of living people to get more corpses, rather than starting an apocalypse (and they would probably prefer in this case to keep to themselves anyway). Obviously there are also going to be some necromancers who are doing it to study the zombies, kind of like Da Vinci stealing corpses from graves to study their anatomy. Also, a fair number of them are going to become psychopathic murder-hobos, as uncharacteristically strong or smart humanoids with tragic backgrounds are wont to do.

[Rejakor]

Wightopocalypse is a calamitous event impacting ALL the godly portfolios. Portfolio sense AND divinations of various stripes would all detect it. Even in an E6 world, someone would either be 'guided' by the gods into killing the wight prophecy style or some wizard's personal hit-team would be come barreling out of the sky on gryphons and blaze-murder the whole area.

Also keep in mind that life is typically harder in DnD settings. Monsters abound and only in cities/REALLY well protected by military/mage patrols land is it safe to live without a) a fortified/secure home b) a weapon on hand at all times c) some level of toughness or skill (i.e. level 2-3).

DnD military forces, thanks to whispering wind, Sending, teleport, divinations, and flying mounts, have a response time much closer to modern day special forces than medieval armies, and while we can do certain things they can't, they can do a hell of a lot of stuff we can't (divinations, divine revelation, teleporting strike teams, etc etc... they can even have a more killey superweapon thanks to the Solar Gate Cannon trick).

If there was a serious issue, some wizard who still cared about non-planar affairs would just whip out his rod of chain spell and lesser planar binding a couple dozen vrocks and wandwhip them into doing his bidding. 'Go and kill all the wights currently spreading out from the Fowanshire region without harming living civilians or causing undue property damage' is totally a service you can request from devils, especially if you have a reputation for trapping devils who displease you in torturebottles filled with holy water and rowan shavings.

[Shadowknight12]

I honestly do not see the point of alignment in the first place. It does not have internal consistency, and ultimately detracts from roleplaying because it forces characters into archetypes, especially when alignment restrictions are considered.

I agree, which is why alignment doesn't really enter any of my games. It's there, but only because I haven't bothered to properly remove it, much like an unused appliance.

As for the rest of your post: It only takes one necromancer on a bad mood to start an apocalypse. Just one.

[Righteous Doggy]

I honestly do not see the point of alignment in the first place. It does not have internal consistency, and ultimately detracts from roleplaying because it forces characters into archetypes, especially when alignment restrictions are considered.

Its only a general guideline. The fact that there are so many ways to play an alignment means you have flexibility, and many DMs just eschew it. There are people/actions that are more towards one alignment than another though, and it does make detect/smite spells nifty.

Anyways... I always figured most necromancers were evil just becuase the acts related to it are evil by society standards. Plenty of ways to play evil, enough of them noble and enough a puppy kicking monster. Would you really want someone to dig up your great grandmas corpse, recycle the organs, take the flesh to make a carpet, and then use the decripit skeleton to work the cornfields a mile from your house? Just a thought...

[MukkTB]

I would guess that human civilization is packed with heroes. The leveling system implies that you can choose any class you want as long as you meet the prerequisites and have satisfied the DM that you have studied the abilities of the class. A peasant might have a hard time suddenly becoming a sorcerer or getting the arcane knowledge to become a wizard. Becoming a cleric takes years of study with the church. But becoming a fighter or a rogue? If you're willing to put some work into it sure. Most people who have made something of themselves will probably have picked up a couple levels in a halfway decent class. That rancher dude that owns the local herds has got a couple levels of ranger on him. The head banker picked up a level of rogue for the skill points. The peasant who owns a farm on the edge of town? He picked up a level of fighter after barely keeping orcs from eating his family for the third time. That's before we even talk about the guys who fully embrace the adventurer's lifestyle.

If the DM says, "No, human towns are filled exclusively with level 1 peasants," then it falls to him to explain why they still manage to exist. Possibly monsters are scarce. If he insists on wights and towns filled with level 1 peasants then it falls to you to make an evil wizard and get the ball rolling. I have the strangest feeling that heroes who didn't previously exist will come out of the woodwork to stop your evil wizard and his wightpocalypse. Thus proving the initial argument. When heroes are needed, there they are.

[Righteous Doggy]

Well, actually the banker would be an aristocrat more likely. Theres a big difference between npc classes and core classes. Unless that banker happens to lead an intense career of trap delving and stealing from other companies.

[MukkTB]

Unless that banker happens to lead an intense career of trap delving and stealing from other companies.

Banking is serious business.

[Righteous Doggy]

Banking is serious business.

Well in that case he's not a banking clerk, he's an adventurous entropenour of questionable motives, means, and affiliations. I'd call that a rogue:smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

Well, actually the banker would be an aristocrat more likely. Theres a big difference between npc classes and core classes. Unless that banker happens to lead an intense career of trap delving and stealing from other companies.

So . . .Moist von Lipwig?:smallcool:
The burning of the dead is certainly one idea, using unintelligent undead as a prime mover is another, filling coffins and sarcophagi with cement or lava is still another.
Making sure your priests all "Kick arse fer the LORD!" is also a good idea.

[Water_Bear]

I think the main problem with a Wightpocalypse scenario is that, after a certain point, they just become so much Destroy Undead fodder. Shadows and other incorporeal undead are a more credible threat as they are nearly impossible to contain, but generally are much less intelligent.

Wights and Shadows have absolute control over their spawn, but as their army hits random CR 4+ wandering monsters and heroes more and more of the "commanders" will die, splitting the force into dozens of tiny uncoordinated factions. Without the ability to work together they will have a lot of trouble dealing with organized defenders.

Cities will likely be able to use mid-high level Good or Neutral Clerics (lower level with Sun domain) to dust huge numbers of Wights/Shadows at once, exacerbating the problem. Wights in particular lack the ability to seriously threaten a walled city, due to their dearth of spell-casting and lack of Craft / Profession (Siege Engineer). Consecrating the gates, so that fallen defenders cannot rise as Spawn, and using phalanx tactics would create a serious meatgrinder.

With Necromancy being Evil, while I don't want to perpetuate an alignment debate, Zombies and Skeletons are both Mindless and Always NE. In other words, their nature is to act against the interests of living creatures, and they don't have the Intelligence to choose to act against their nature. Creating something so thoughtlessly malevolent cannot be a Good act.

[Ravens_cry]

Except they aren't malevolent at all.
Unless ordered, they do, exactly, precisely, nothing.

[Righteous Doggy]

Except they aren't malevolent at all.
Unless ordered, they do, exactly, precisely, nothing.

Do they? I thought the srd in any sectoni about controlling undead just says they become "uncontrolled" And seeing as how they've got little to no intellegence, in a primal state, and they're powered by negative energies they'd just sort of... go nuts.

[Water_Bear]

Except they aren't malevolent at all.
Unless ordered, they do, exactly, precisely, nothing.

I think you might be confusing them with Golems. If you run into a Zombie wandering around in the woods uncontrolled, that dude is going right for your tasty brains.

Hence why you need Lichloved or something similar to avoid being attacked by mindless uncontrolled Undead. If they think you're alive, they will go to work fixing that.

[Shadowknight12]

I think you might be confusing them with Golems. If you run into a Zombie wandering around in the woods uncontrolled, that dude is going right for your tasty brains.

Hence why you need Lichloved or something similar to avoid being attacked by mindless uncontrolled Undead. If they think you're alive, they will go to work fixing that.

It gets sillier than that. Lichloved was from 3.0e, where mindless undead were Always True Neutral.:smallamused:

[Namfuak]

It gets sillier than that. Lichloved was from 3.0e, where mindless undead were Always True Neutral.

"What makes a [zombie] turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?" - Zapp Brannigan

I'd say that -- intelligence and "It can draw no conclusions of its own and takes no initiative" leads me to believe that they would not attack something under their own volition. That only applies to skeletons though, zombies do not have that stipulation in their description.

[Ravens_cry]

Do they? I thought the srd in any sectoni about controlling undead just says they become "uncontrolled" And seeing as how they've got little to no intellegence, in a primal state, and they're powered by negative energies they'd just sort of... go nuts.
They (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) literally no intelligence (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm), not even zero, but -, just like golems. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm) I don't see how they can take actions unless ordered to, and even then it is basically limited to practically programming more than commanding.

[Righteous Doggy]

"What makes a [zombie] turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?" - Zapp Brannigan

I'd say that -- intelligence and "It can draw no conclusions of its own and takes no initiative" leads me to believe that they would not attack something under their own volition. That only applies to skeletons though, zombies do not have that stipulation in their description.

Bears in the wild never attack you either :D oh wait...

Edit: looked it up. 0 int creatures act on instict or programmed instructions. Most undead are powered by negative energy and/or feral...

[Ravens_cry]

Bears in the wild never attack you either :D oh wait...
Bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) have intelligence scores. Skeletons, zombies, and golems do not.

[Righteous Doggy]

Bears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) have intelligence scores. Skeletons, zombies, and golems do not.

0 int creatures run on instict and programmed instructions. They just can't think, Learn, or remember. They do have a wisdom score and react to their surroundings.(taken from srd, look it up!)

They're powered by negative energies and pretty feral/autonomous unless they're a deathless.

[Rejakor]

Go look at the tomes for a slightly more in-depth look at the various options for necromancy.

i.e. whether skeletons want to eat you because they are made of negative energy and hunger for your flesh or whether they're just golems with a non-bound-elemental power source.

[Ravens_cry]

0 int creatures run on instict and programmed instructions. They just can't think, Learn, or remember. They do have a wisdom score and react to their surroundings.(taken from srd, look it up!)

They're powered by negative energies and pretty feral/autonomous unless they're a deathless.
*Animals* run on instinct, 0 intelligence creatures are unconscious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged).
Unintelligent unread *do not have zero intelligence*.

[Rejakor]

Having int -- is not the same as having int 0.

Please please learn to read.

[Righteous Doggy]

*Animals* run on instinct, 0 intelligence creatures are unconscious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#abilityDamaged).
Unintelligent unread *do not have zero intelligence*.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#intelligence
Nonability is different than drain.

[Shadowknight12]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#intelligence
Nonability is different than drain.

Yes. That's exactly what they've been telling you. You repeatedly said "creatures with 0 int" when they were telling you that zombies, skeletons and golems have an Int of -, not 0. 0 Int is what happens when you get intelligence drain or damage. Int - is not the same as Int 0.

Please stop equating "instinct" or "feral" or anything animalistic or bestial with creatures that literally have no minds on which this "instinct" might be placed. They are better equated with computer programs or robots, rather than anything "organic" or "natural".

[Righteous Doggy]

Yes. That's exactly what they've been telling you. You repeatedly said "creatures with 0 int" when they were telling you that zombies, skeletons and golems have an Int of -, not 0. 0 Int is what happens when you get intelligence drain or damage. Int - is not the same as Int 0.

Please stop equating "instinct" or "feral" or anything animalistic or bestial with creatures that literally have no minds on which this "instinct" might be placed. They are better equated with computer programs or robots, rather than anything "organic" or "natural".

well.. I used the word instinct becuase thats the word they used in the text I linked to. I was also refering to the collection of undead who do think(morgh, ghoul, wight, shadow). btw, one of those I named is somehow more intellegent than most commoners!

[Shadowknight12]

well.. I used the word instinct becuase thats the word they used in the text I linked to. I was also refering to the collection of undead who do think(morgh, ghoul, wight, shadow). btw, one of those I named is somehow more intellegent than most commoners!

Firstly, there are organic creatures with no int score (I think there's a fungus somewhere that has no dex, int, or str), so "instincts" could apply there (though it would still be debatable). An undead or construct has no biology to speak of, and therefore no basis to presume it has anything even close to an instinct.

Secondly, intelligent undead are by definition intelligent. They have int scores. I fail to see how that's relevant to the discussion.

[Righteous Doggy]

Firstly, there are organic creatures with no int score (I think there's a fungus somewhere that has no dex, int, or str), so "instincts" could apply there (though it would still be debatable). An undead or construct has no biology to speak of, and therefore no basis to presume it has anything even close to an instinct.

Secondly, intelligent undead are by definition intelligent. They have int scores. I fail to see how that's relevant to the discussion.

Well, if we're just going to turn this into that... *jumps out of the burning ship*

[Morph Bark]

Negative energy isn't evil. And mindless things not composed of elemental evil are morally neutral (since by WotC's logic they don't have the agency to have a morality). Therefore, using negative energy to raise mindless undead is neutral. The [evil] tags on skeletons, zombies, and the Animate Dead spell are incorrect, because they can't be evil.

While I agree on that mindless creatures are/should be morally neutral, you are wrong on negative energy not being evil. In fact, it is used as one of the very definitions of evil in DnD.

[Jack_Simth]

Firstly, there are organic creatures with no int score (I think there's a fungus somewhere that has no dex, int, or str)A lot of them, actually. It's the default state for Vermin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#verminType) and Oozes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#oozeType).

The intelligence of a skeleton is on par with that of a Giant Ant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantAnt.htm), Giant Bee (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantBee.htm), Giant Preying Mantis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giantPrayingMantis.htm), Monstrous Centipede (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousCentipede.htm), Monstrous Scorpion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm), Monstrous Spider (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousSpider.htm), Black Pudding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#blackPudding), Gelatinous Cube (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#gelatinousCube), Gray Ooze (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#grayOoze), Ochre Jelly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ooze.htm#ochreJelly), or any of a number of other critters that will still act even if they're not specifically directed.

"Mindless" and "Has no volition" are not the same thing in D&D.

[Ravens_cry]

While I agree on that mindless creatures are/should be morally neutral, you are wrong on negative energy not being evil. In fact, it is used as one of the very definitions of evil in DnD.
One of the areas WotC is inconsistent on. There is many spells that use negative energy that are not Evil descriptor spells, like Enervation, Harm, or any of the Inflict line.
Furthermore, Mummy and Mummy Lords can, potentially, be good, and Ghosts are the alignment of the creature they form from.
So, even in Core, Vanilla, 3.5, being Undead and Negative Energy powered does not necessarily equate with being evil.

[Shadowknight12]

While I agree on that mindless creatures are/should be morally neutral, you are wrong on negative energy not being evil. In fact, it is used as one of the very definitions of evil in DnD.

Indeed, and then we have gems such as this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm), where the Negative Energy Plane is not stated to be related to evil in any way, or this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) (or this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm), or this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm), or this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWounds.htm)), which does not have the [Evil] descriptor, and I also distinctly recall a very specific quote that says "negative energy is neither good nor evil" in one of the official sourcebooks, but I can't seem to find it right now. I will keep looking, but I assure it's been the source of headaches for many years.

[Midnight_v]

I wanted to add that his problems was discovered and labled over on the original boards over on wotc.
They even codified it and started calling it "Shadow over the Sun".
Shadow over the sun (Sots, was orignially focused on shadows as they are harder to get away from) is actually a real threat in D&D and yes the tome series does talk about that.
Really its on of those cases where you have stopped to really look at the kind of crazy that goes on in D&D and maybe successful kingdoms in your campaign actualy DO burn bodies. Or animate them first if your in a magical society etc.
The horrible thing is that I actually thought that someone actually made a movie about it, 2 if I recall, the vanishing on 7th street, and pulse.
Realistically, almost any D&D setting where this had happened at least once might have any number of protocols where from the god stepping in, to hallowed safe zones etc, to burning bodies. Though sometimes assuredly you're going to walk into areas that are leterally towns FULL of undead.

It's always a good plot device. Leave town to raid, return to town to find someone on the road running for thier life saying the place is over run with the dead etc. . . and "We gotta get out of here before nightfall!"
... which the adventueres don't...

[Doxkid]

Oh? A Crawling Darkness VS Playing with Fire thread? Amusing.

Once must consider that, even if mindless undead are automatons...all of those that do not attack people were probably destroyed a while ago (relative to the present moment in that world). Undead Skeletons are, after all, considered abominations by most of the population, so it is not a stretch to think that population would destroy/run from every skeleton they meet.

Only the skeletons charged with attacking, defending themselves or defending a place would fight back, so only those have a chance at staying animated past Bob the farmer beating at it with a pitchfork's handle.

[Calanon]

But fact is that faerun is so full of high level casters that no event like that would have a chance to happend before some level 20 bartender show up.

Actually... (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Tabra)

[PairO'Dice Lost]

One reason I didn't see anyone mention yet: Graveyards are necromancer bait.

Any caster with enough power to cast animate dead can most likely easily slaughter any number of the 1-HD NPCs which comprise most of the population of outlying towns. So, as an easily-slaughtered NPC worrying about crazy necromancers coming to town, you have two options: bury all of your dead quite a ways away from the town in a clearly-marked graveyard, so any necromancer wanting to raise an army spends a few days at the graveyard raising things while the local adept calls in for clerical backup from the main temple...or have no bodies around at all, and force the necromancer to kill you and your family to create a bunch of corpses for his use. I know which one I'd pick. :smallwink:


Let me conclude with this: Undeath needs fixing. So I fixed it. I can't say that what I did works for you, so go ahead and give it a try yourself. Don't lose your mind trying to make sense of illogical things.

Mind posting your houserules, either in here or in another thread so as not to go too off-topic?

[MilesTiden]

In a campaign setting that I am currently working on, along with a couple of other people, has a nation with an Evil Lich Necromancer dictator that is raising an undead army. In actuality, he is a Neutral Lich Necromancer who is gathering all undead that have been created due to a large gate to the negative energy plane underneath the ground where his kingdom is situated, using them to make his kingdom a better place through physical labor so his subjects do not have to work so much in already difficult to settle land, and then permanently destroying them. So undead are a prominent part of the labor force and other jobs, and are used as tools to aid the people. I think it is an interesting take on this subject, as the undead are doing the jobs of the people, but are being destroyed immediately after, and are carefully managed. Of course, this may turn out to actually be off topic, because I only skimmed the last two pages. :smallredface:

[Shadowknight12]

Mind posting your houserules, either in here or in another thread so as not to go too off-topic?

Of course (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13217054).