VoP and the lack of exalted feats

[Moginheden]

I've made a vow of poverty monk and looking at the number of exalted feats I'll be getting as I level up vs what exalted feats are actually useful, (especially since I can't aford the 15 charisma most of them need) I'm running into a bit of a problem.

I'm also seeing what the vow gives me vs what items do and noticing they don't come close. VoP gives me an insane AC, and decent attacks, but doesn't let me do any of the neat tricks most non-armor, non-weapon items allow.

I've seen a few threads like this crop up, but they all seem to be wishlists with very little feedback on how balanced their ideas are, just responces saying the ideas are neat.

One thing I've noticed is epic skill tricks emulate a lot of the abilities items give like invisibility, flight, short range teleportation and the like. However without items to boost my skill ranks I don't see a way to get into the epic checks needed to accomplish these tricks anywhere near the level someone would normally be able to buy an item to do them.

I'm wondering if anyone can point me to a well balanced set of homebrew exalted feats to help with VoP characters without making them too powerfull. (My DM is already looking at my AC and thinking I might need a nerf.)

Also would allowing VoP characters to avoid the normal max-ranks in skills, or take feats that give more than 3 points in a skill be un-balanced? What about an exalted feat that reduced epic check DCs by half but didn't touch non-epic checks or something?

[ngilop]

THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12577051&postcount=22) is, in my opinion, the best Vow of Poverty Fix in existance.

It manages to duplicate the vast majority of effects and abilities one would get when having magical items, and instead of being purely defensive, like all the rest ( or the majority of the rest) tosses in some nice offensive abilities.


neoseraphi gives a perfect review and assesment of teh feat in a couple posst of his.

anywyas, just run this version of VoP by your DM and see if he will allow it. ( with WBL as a guideline, one is still a few thousand gold under that a character would have at level 20, and is pretty equal up to level 10-12)

[Autopsibiofeeder]

The value of VoP in general really depends on the power level of the campaign and especially the way the DM deals with magic items. In most games it turns out to be subpar and only a few builds involving classes that are not necessarily very item dependent (Psion, Druid, Monk, etc.) can make some use of it. Depending on the power level of the campaign, you might want to ask your DM to have the bonus feat be 'any' feat, instead of just exalted feats or, if that is too much, ask if half of them can be normal feats (that's what I'd do as DM).

This change can suddenly turn the table for a lot of feat intensive builds (which are there for all kinds of classes), making VoP suddenly worth looking at and it also avoids resorting to homebrew and obscure sources to actually benefit from the bonus feat feature.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to use a VoP Monk... you should use BOTH a VoP fix *and* a Monk Fix.

By default, this is one of the weakest combinations in the game.

[Calanon]

I have long since realized that the Vow of Poverty was strictly created as feat fuel for Embracing shuffling :smallannoyed:

[Darth Stabber]

Ranting insideVoP is actually a reasonable choice, for lazy Incarnates, lazy Totemists, and lazy Druids focused on wild shape. It is a workable choice for full casters. It makes the better non-magical classes cry. It takes everything bad about monk and cranks the crap up to 11. Pixies (with no class levels, just MM1 pixies) will wreak a VoP Monk20.

If your GM doesn't understand what little balance 3.x has and is stingy with gear, it might work, but not for monks. Monks need a way to fly, and several other neato things to be able to contribute anything more than a warm body at higher levels, and VoP gives none of those things. Druid has the things it needs to contribute at any level built into it's class features, and wildshape gives it some serious issues with items, hence wild shape works for it. Incarnate and Totemist's class features offer enough to be able to hold it's own with out items, and infact they also have trouble with items due to chakra binds.

as far as feats go? You have to start picking the crappy ones at this point. If you can get a friendly wizard to give you some chaos shuffle action you can convert those massive number of crappy feats into something useful.

[hamishspence]

Faerun has a few exalted feats in Player's Guide to Faerun, and Champions of Valor.

Maybe the DM will allow Faerun content in other settings?

[Callista]

If you want to use a VoP Monk... you should use BOTH a VoP fix *and* a Monk Fix.

By default, this is one of the weakest combinations in the game.Whether VoP is right for your game depends on whether the other players are optimizing powerful classes. If they are, then you're probably going to be the weak link; if they're either not optimizing or not playing the more powerful classes, you're fine. I'm assuming this is a typical game. If that's the case, Vow of Poverty monks can fit in without problems. Yes, it's a weak combination, but it's not unplayable.

Before you get too high-level and really start running out of feats, talk to your DM and explain the problem: Your character has a low charisma and doesn't qualify for many Exalted feats, limiting his choices. Ask your DM to read and approve some non-Exalted feats that you could take instead. There should be many other feats that have the same general bent as the Exalted feats--for example, the ones that are associated with the Good-aligned deities, or ones that involve somehow improving your character's ability to help others. Obviously, since you're playing an Exalted character, you might want to, for example, increase your ability to subdue rather than kill enemies, get extra damage against evil enemies, or gain LG followers via Leadership (which, incidentally, is one way to offset the generally weak Monk/VoP combination, if you find that your character is falling behind in power level).

[Prime32]

Technically it doesn't say your VoP bonus feats have to be exalted apart from the 1st-level one (though it's strongly implied).

[Amphetryon]

. I'm assuming this is a typical game. If that's the case, Vow of Poverty monks can fit in without problems. Yes, it's a weak combination, but it's not unplayable.It becomes nigh-unplayable if your typical game has a decent number of encounters that require Flight or other alternate movement routes. My experience says those become increasingly common past around level 7. Others may report different experiences, of course.

[Acanous]

I'd ask your DM if you can just take any "Non-evil" feat for which you qualify at each level you get a bonus feat.
It's not broken. It's not even par at that point, you can't get a feat combo that breaks the game without items or magic.

[Answerer]

Vow of Poverty is strictly a nerf to any character who takes it (who otherwise would use items). Even in the best cases, it's still not as good as just having items.

In the overwhelming majority of cases, it's so bad that burning a feat on it and then breaking it is better than adhering to it.

[Chronos]

Vow of Poverty is a huge nerf to anyone who's trying to powergame. That doesn't mean that it's always a nerf, though, and on the right character, it's an insanely huge power boost. See, it's significantly weaker than full WBL worth of items, but it's significantly more powerful than going without items without the feat. It's supposed to be for someone who says "I'd like to make a character who does without items, but that would suck monkey balls. How can I make that something approaching playable?", not for someone who says "I want to gain more power, and giving up items is an acceptable price to pay for that.".

There's a reason Book of Exalted Deeds is listed as for "mature audiences only", and it's not because of pictures of scantily-clad women. It's because the book is written with the assumption that you've matured beyond pure powergaming.

[Amphetryon]

There's a reason Book of Exalted Deeds is listed as for "mature audiences only", and it's not because of pictures of scantily-clad women. It's because the book is written with the assumption that you've matured beyond pure powergaming. [citation needed]

[Answerer]

I'd like to make a character who does without items, but that would suck monkey balls. How can I make that something approaching playable?
Play a different system that actually supports that character concept.

3.5 does not, and the authors of BoED are lying to you when they say it does. This has nothing to do with maturity (and you should be careful of the implications you're making, because it implies that "having a problem with the way Vow of Poverty works" == "being immature"), and everything to do with proper system design, of options working as advertised, and of tailoring your expectations of the system to what the system is actually capable of handling. No system can be everything to everyone, and for the most part, no system can handle every style of game (and any system that can, or can try to, is not a level-based system but a point-buy systems a la GURPS).


Alternatively, separate fluff and mechanics: a feat that allows you to receive blessings, innate features, whatever, equivalent to whatever items you could have bought. Mechanically, you have items (and they're listed by name on your character sheet), but the feat basically says that they're not actual physical items and thus they can't be stolen or removed. But you can't just use items you find; you have to donate them to charity or whatever to get a bonus roughly equivalent to an item that cost the original item's sell value (and your DM should compensate for this by including items that sell better or overpriced items he knows you'll 'donate' so that you operate at WBL anyway). Or whatever. That way the system isn't affected (since mechanically you still have items), and you can play the character you want.

[Particle_Man]

Eh, I have played a VoP monk and enjoyed it and didn't feel the lack of power that everyone else on this messageboard seems to feel, for what it is worth.

I liked Touch of Golden Ice (sort of a golden handshake poor man's detect evil) and the aura one the most. Didn't use Stigmata except the once.

Avoid the Vow that requires you not to touch the dead though. It is hard to fight undead with that one. :smallsmile:

[nedz]

I think the OP was complaining about many of them requiring Cha 15; Sanctify Ki Strike for example. This adds another stat to your already MAD requirements, and its not as if you can just wear a cloak.

[hex0]

Avoid the Vow that requires you not to touch the dead though. It is hard to fight undead with that one. :smallsmile:

Or the ones that you lose even if you are forced to break it! :smallfurious:

[Andorax]

Well, here's my suggested fixes. I like this approach better than the one proposed near the top of the thread, since it actually gives some more choice and flexibility rather than saying "VOP is missing A, B, and C...so we'll put A at 6th, B at ...".

The key is that it works within the existing framework of the VoP...bonus exalted feats.

Nimbus of Light (addendum)

The Nimbus of Light is considered a 0-level "light" spell for the purpose of overcomming, and being overcome by, magical darkness. Each additional [light] feat taken by the PC increases the level of the Nimbus of Light by +1. What's more, Holy Radiance and Stigmata are [light] feats.

Commentary: Light and Darkness in D&D interact on the basis of levels...assigning the Nimbus of Light an "effective level" helps determine what darkness overcomes, and can be overcome, by it.



Vow of Honesty [Exalted]

You have taken a sacred vow to speak no lies.

Prerequisite: Sacred Vow

Benefit: You gain a +10 perfection bonus to any Sense Motive check that involves determining if someone else is lying or attempting to hide something.

Special: To fulfill your vow, you cannot lie in any way (spoken, written, pantomime, etc.). You are not compelled to speak...remaining silent is a valid choice. If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion, you lose the benefit of this feat until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement spell.

Initiates of Pistis Sophia may select Vow of Honesty as one of their bonus Vow feats.



Vow of Silence [Exalted]

You have taken a sacred vow not to speak.

Prerequisite: Sacred Vow, Silent Spell (for some benefits)

Benefit: You receive a +4 perfection bonus to Listen and Move Silent checks. If you posess the Silent Spell feat, any spells you cast are affected as if by the Silent Spell metamagic feat, with no increase in level cost or casting time.

Special: To fulfill your vow, you cannot speak, nor make any other intentional vocal noises (involuntarially crying out in pain does not count). If you intentionally break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it. If you break your vow as a result of magical compulsion, you lose the benefit of this feat until you perform a suitable penance and receive an atonement spell.

Initiates of Pistis Sophia may select Vow of Silence as one of their bonus Vow feats.

Spells that, by their very nature, cannot be silenced (Bard spells, for instance) do not gain the benefit specified by this feat.

Commentary: Free silent spell is a sizable benefit, but it's also a sizable sacrifice to gain it. What's more, it's paid with the added feat-cost of taking Silent Spell as well.



Light of Truth [Exalted, Light]

When the Nimbus of light shines from you, all those standing within it are compelled to speak only the truth.

Prerequisites: Cha 17, Nimbus of Light, Sacred Vow, Vow of Honesty.

Benefit: Whenever your Nimbus of Light is active, anyone within it's direct illumination (5', or 10' with Holy Radiance active) is affected as if by a Zone of Truth with a save DC equal to 10 + 1/2 your Character level + your Charisma modifier.



Light of Discernment [Exalted, Light]

When the Nimbus of light shines from you, all things that would otherwise be invisible are rendered visible.

Prerequisites: Wis 17, Nimbus of Light.

Benefit: Whenever your Nimbus of Light is active, the area of it's direct illumination (5', or 10' with Holy Radiance active) is affected as if by an Invisibility Purge.



Light of Revelation [Exalted, Light]

When the Nimbus of light shines from you, all things are shown to be as they truly are.

Prerequisites: Wis 19, Nimbus of Light, Holy Radience, Light of Discernment, Sacred Vow, Vow of Honesty.

Benefit: Whenever your Nimbus of Light is active, the area of it's direct illumination (5', or 10' with Holy Radiance active) is visible to any onlookers as if they had True Sight active.



Light of Wrath [Exalted, Light]

When the Nimbus of light shines from you, the unrighteous cannot bear to look upon you.

Prerequisites: Cha 15, Nimbus of Light.

Benefit: Whenever your Nimbus of Light is active, any evil, sighted opponent who attempts to attack you is dazzled for one round.



Light of Consecration [Exalted, Light]

Blessed is the ground you walk upon.

Prerequisites: Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance, Cha 15

Benefit: The area currently illuminated by your Nimbus of Light (10, or 20' with Holy Radiance active) is affected as if by the Consecreate spell.

Commentary: Of particular use in undead-focused campaigns, or campaigns where vile damage makes regular appearances. It can be quite frustrating to have to cart around a wand of consecration to have to heal up between fights.



Adaptive Exalted Defense [Exalted]

Your righteousness can manifest itself in different ways to better suit the path you have chosen.

Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Poverty-granted Exalted AC Bonus of +6 or higher.

Benefit: You may convert up to half of your Exalted AC Bonus granted benefit (rounded down) from actual plusses to AC into "+ cost" armor boosts selected from the Book of Exalted Deeds or the DMG.

Spending a week in solitude and meditation allows you to alter these chosen benefits. You may likewise alter them with only 24 hours of solitude and meditation each time the potential benefit would increase (at +8 and again at +10).

Example: Knowing that he will face a cabal of necromancers, Kiana, a Monk 6/Initiate of Pistis Sophia 8, prays and replaces her +8 Exalted bonus to AC with a +4 Exalted bonus, and the benefit of the Soulfire magic armor enhancement.

Commentary: There is a great deal of flexibility lost in getting only straight-up AC boosts instead of having access to the host of alternative resistances, bonuses, boosts and the like available through magical armor. This provides a means of recapturing some of that benefit, and through it, access to a lot of the lost flexibility in the Vow of Poverty. Restricting it to the BoED and DMG is an attempt to avoid unintended consequences, and is negotiatable (both in the discussion in this thread and individually with DMs). I may drop that limitation entirely if it's felt that it is overly restrictive.

The week-long meditations is to cut down on continuous situational shifting, but avoids the complete dead-ending of a benefit that can't be altered (where magical armor could be sold or traded).




Adaptive Exalted Assault [Exalted]

Your righteousness can manifest itself in different ways to better suit the path you have chosen.

Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Poverty-granted Exalted Strike bonus of +2 or greater

Benefit: You may convert all but 1 plus of your granted Exalted Strike benefit from actual plusses to hit and damage into "+ cost" melee weapon boosts selected from the Book of Exalted Deeds or the DMG.

Spending a week in solitude and meditation allows you to alter these chosen benefits. You may likewise alter them with only 24 hours of solitude and meditation each time the potential benefit would increase (at +3, +4 and again at +5).

Commentary: See Adapted Exalted Defense...the same reasoning applies.




On Angel's Wings [Exalted, Light]

Your purity of faith is made manifest in glowing, angelic wings that literally lift you up in your faith.

Prerequisites: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nimbus of Light, Holy Radiance

Benefit: While your Nimbus of Light is active, you gain a flight speed equal to your ground speed (Maneuverability average).

Commentary: One of the most oft-quoted weaknesses of the Vow of Poverty is the inability to fly that can't be shored up by items. While alternative means of flight do exist, they're not avaialble to everyone and in some cases, they're considered vital. On Angel's Wings provides both a compelling visual and an important limitation...it only functions so long as the Nimbus of Light does. With the addendum listed above to how Nimbus of Light interacts with darkness spells, it provides a potential means for countering this ability (and, through taking additinal Light feats, a means of defending against it as well).

Originally, I had thought of tying it to a specific minimum level, as flight is a potent ability, but with the restriction of it being vulnerable to Darkness and the feat pre-requisites, it seems fairly well balanced. The weakness can be shored up in later levels.





Righteous Pursuit [Exalted]

Evil cannot flee from your presence.

Prerequisites: 2 or more Exalted feats

Benefit: If an evil opponent within your reach takes a 5' step away from you, you may take an immediate action to move to the nearest square that still allows you to threaten this foe.

If you have 4 or more Exalted feats, and an evil opponent within your reach moves away from you, you may take an immediate action to make a single move to the nearest square that still allows you to threaten this foe (or the closest square to it, if a standard move for you is insufficient to reach that square).

If you have 6 or more Exalted feats, and an evil opponent within your reach uses a [teleportation] ability, you may take an immediate action to teleport to any location within sight that still allows you to threaten this foe.

If you have 10 or more Exalted feats, and an evil opponent within your line of sight uses a [teleportation] ability, you may take an immediate action to teleport to any location on the same plane that allows you to threaten this foe.

If you have 12 or more Exalted feats, and an evil opponent within your line of sight uses a [teleportation] or planar travel ability, you may take an immediate action to teleport to any location that allows you to threaten this foe.


Commentary: Another one of the weaknesses of some Vow of Poverty characters (who don't otherwise have the ability through class features) is tactical teleportation. While limited in the sense that it only allows teleporting after, not teleporting away, Righteous Pursuit does help resolve the problem of a persistantly retreating foe. It runs the risk, however, of leaving the exalted character unsupported, or even stranded, so it would be wise to use this with caution.

[Azernak0]

Eh, I have played a VoP monk and enjoyed it and didn't feel the lack of power that everyone else on this messageboard seems to feel, for what it is worth.

I liked Touch of Golden Ice (sort of a golden handshake poor man's detect evil) and the aura one the most. Didn't use Stigmata except the once.

Avoid the Vow that requires you not to touch the dead though. It is hard to fight undead with that one. :smallsmile:

The big problem with VoP is that it is static. If a DM decides to make custom magic items for players, the VoP guy is left out in the cold. If the game is even the slightest amount past wealth by level, the VoP guy is left out in the cold. It also doesn't have anyway of dealing with guys that can fly other than a sling.

I think the biggest problem is actually damage reduction. There are a couple of alchemical items that grant a weapon a silver edge or a cold iron edge for a couple of minutes IIRC. A VoP Monk is basically scratching his head angrily when a Vampire shows up.