Using 4e for Team PvP

[knightMARE]

I had an idea the other day at my local gaming club while discussing a Mordheim League. 4e, played in a style similar to Mordheim, making it a tactical minis game instead of an RPG.

The plan would be to have players controlling a team of 3-5 characters, built to a certain level, and play off against other teams in a variety of scenarios. Has anyone ever attempted something similar? Would you play in such a game? Do you have any advice regarding team size, possible scenarios, house rules, starting levels etc.

Alot of potential players will have little experience with 4e (I personally will have more than they do, but I'm no expert) so any and all advice will be greatly appreciated

[NecroRebel]

The biggest problem with this is that PCs are designed to be high-damage but relatively little endurance. Monsters compensate by being relatively low-damage but high durability, so that evens out, but in a PC-vs.-PC fight, I think you're going to run into people dying in 3 or fewer hits. Striker nova rounds, even encounter-based nova rounds, could kill a PC outright, especially at lower levels, so I'd be worried that a team consisting of 5 longbow rangers would be built, win initiative, and just kill the other team before they can act to win the scenario by default.

To avoid this, I'd suggest you do not run this at below level 5, minimum, dictate that no role must have more than 2 instances on any team, and probably limit group sizes to 4 at most. You might even consider forbidding the use of daily powers altogether; this would prevent heavy-duty novas and would always allow everyone to start a battle on even footing. At the very least, you should limit how many dailies are used per battle so as to stop one team from burning all of theirs for a guaranteed win.

[Ashdate]

I would definitely remove Action Points, and maybe consider doubling PC hit point values to compensate for the problems NecroRebel mentioned.

[WitchSlayer]

I would consider using monsters instead of PCs

[knightMARE]

The biggest problem with this is that PCs are designed to be high-damage but relatively little endurance. Monsters compensate by being relatively low-damage but high durability, so that evens out, but in a PC-vs.-PC fight, I think you're going to run into people dying in 3 or fewer hits. Striker nova rounds, even encounter-based nova rounds, could kill a PC outright, especially at lower levels, so I'd be worried that a team consisting of 5 longbow rangers would be built, win initiative, and just kill the other team before they can act to win the scenario by default.

To avoid this, I'd suggest you do not run this at below level 5, minimum, dictate that no role must have more than 2 instances on any team, and probably limit group sizes to 4 at most. You might even consider forbidding the use of daily powers altogether; this would prevent heavy-duty novas and would always allow everyone to start a battle on even footing. At the very least, you should limit how many dailies are used per battle so as to stop one team from burning all of theirs for a guaranteed win.

Good advice, thanks
To avoid the overuse of Daily powers, I was thinking of setting it so each round teams fight 2-4 fights, and count as the same day for expendable resources. Does this sound sane?

[Musco]

It's a fix, bot not much of one. Encounter-based Ranged Rangers can still outright kill someone with minimum help from a ridiculous distance.

[Surrealistik]

Don't bother.

[Snowbody]

There is already a group that does this, characters die left and right and then respawn, they call it a "4e deathmatch".

www.fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com

[Hzurr]

I'd echo fourthcore team death match (http://www.fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com/p/overview-2.html) (I'm actually running it at GenCon this year, if anyone is interested. Event ID RPG1232043 & RPG1232044).

It's heavily inspired by Doom/Quake, but here's the rundown

- two Teams of 4
- 1st level
- Any race/class (No themes, no backgrounds)
- 1 hour of live play (typically about 12-20 rounds).
- Very high-pressure time crunch. If you spend longer than a minute on your turn or do something that delays the game, the DM kills you outright.
- Outrageous maps that may have terrain features you can use against each other (like turret guns or lava pits or catapults), and ridiculous overpowered items.

I was a bit dubious, but I got a chance to play in the first tournament at GenCon last year and had a blast. There are easily 40+ deaths in a one hour game, and it was some of the most intense, adrenaline fueled gaming I've ever had.

There are some PbP games going on at fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com right now, but those are a bit different. I'd recommend checking out some of the maps (this (http://www.fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com/2011/01/e1m1-slaughterhouse.html) is one of the classics). There's also one live play if you'd like to see a game in action here (http://www.fourthcoreteamdeathmatch.com/2012/02/video-e1m1-slaughterhouse.html) that happened at the Baltimore Game Day(?) this last year.

[Doug Lampert]

The biggest problem with this is that PCs are designed to be high-damage but relatively little endurance. Monsters compensate by being relatively low-damage but high durability, so that evens out,

Simply untrue. PCs have MORE endurance than standard monsters at every level, PROVIDED they live long enough to use their healing powers and have a competent leader.

Figure out how many HP of damage your PCs can ACTUALLY take in a battle without anyone going down, if it isn't more than a patrol encounter's worth of monsters would have then you've done something badly wrong.

It's Action Points and powerful daily/encounter powers and damage boosts for crits that make PC vs. PC deadly.

Elite and solo monsters may be able to nova (they have action points and limited use powers), but their best powers tend to be area or multiple target so the outnumbered elites or solo can't actually concentrate fire and nova a PC to death.

Give the PCs a standard monster NPC ally built to the newer rules and you'll find that it has less endurance, and does comparable damage to the PCs EXCEPT when the PCs nova.

Basically, a standard monster is behind slightly in damage done, and substantially in endurance, the game design that PCs need healing powers and monsters don't disguises this. But in PvP play the PCs won't last long enough for healing powers to apply and this breaks down.

Monster vs. monster actually works far better than PvP.

[Surrealistik]

Hmm, I'm intrigued by this 4th core deathmatching, though I absolutely hate the luck based elements inherent to most of those maps, and L1s only seems a little too limited.

Think I might actually run something like this on the forums, albeit modified to maybe L2-7.

[Tegu8788]

I'd be up for a death match type game. It would be a great way to quickly test a lot of builds.

[Surrealistik]

Yeah, totally will run this if there's enough interest.

Mind you I _will_ be removing/modifying most of the random elements in the maps/battlescapes, especially those with decisive outcomes. IMO attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws are plenty random enough.

Skill, build and tactics should be emphasized in importance whenever possible over haphazard risks and random chance.

[Hzurr]

Hmm, I'm intrigued by this 4th core deathmatching, though I absolutely hate the luck based elements inherent to most of those maps, and L1s only seems a little too limited.

Think I might actually run something like this on the forums, albeit modified to maybe L2-7.

Yeah, I remember having a long debate with the creator about bumping up to lvl 3 or 5, and the biggest reason we decided about sticking with lvl 1 is that it severely cuts back on the number of ridiculous combos. 4e is balanced with the idea of PCs going out and fighting multiple monsters over several encounters, not for small quick PvP matches where people are constantly respawning and refreshing powers and abilities; so things that are perfectly balanced in normal play become game-breaking in this type of PvP deathmatch.

[Surrealistik]

I can't see L2 being all that bad personally; it's an extra feat, a handful of HP and a utility power. Characters aren't even coming into their second encounter attack.

That said, I definitely see the problem with going any further with respect to additional options, combos, and hp/damage output scaling.

Lastly, I will say that I find allowing end of encounter durations for character powers to last the entire match rather than until character death is completely retarded; it makes these dailies far too powerful and desirable vis a vis the other options. There is almost no reason to choose any other Wizard daily power over the likes of Wizard's Wrath, Fountain of Flame and Phantom Chasm as an example.