Tiefling, cut down Tiefling, or Human

[Olfgar]

So, Im planning on playing a Rogue (with levels into other classes, suchas Swashbuckler and Assassin). We will be using a 32 point buy, and I am trying to decide Between playing a normal human, (bonus feat is win), Tiefling (some nice things for a rogue here to) OR, a cut down version of the Tiefling so that it does not have the +1 LA By changing the following:

-Cannot cast Darkness
-Lose resistance to Fire, Cold and Electricity
- a -2 to Con (along with the normal +2 Dex, +2 Int and -2 Cha)

What is the playground thoughts on these 2 and a half races?

PS: Its only between these 3 for my flavour becaus they will fit the feel of my character better for me.

[Righteous Doggy]

Isn't Lesser Planetouched a +0 LA and just changes them from Native Outsiders to Humanoids?
Edit: you can always just be a human and pretend you still have some remnants of outsider blood in you. Nothings preventing you from doing that. Just a few Vestigal things, but nothing enough to warrent a special ability.

[Olfgar]

Eh its not about the looks for me. Id be more or less taking the tiefling for the bonus stats, but not sure if the -2 con would make it worth while since thats more points in a limited pool ill need to invest back into Con rather than Dex or Int

[Righteous Doggy]

Eh its not about the looks for me. Id be more or less taking the tiefling for the bonus stats, but not sure if the -2 con would make it worth while since thats more points in a limited pool ill need to invest back into Con rather than Dex or Int

Well, I don't understand why the distant relative of a succubus even takes a hit to Cha, but why not just move the hit to something else as long as your playing with it? You can fluff anything... but you know what happens to rogues who take a hit to con well enough I'm sure.

[Olfgar]

You take a hit to con, you take a hit in combat, that hit happens to spread your face down the rest of the hallway.

But no, if i was going to play the cut down version, I have to add the -2 Con to everything the Tiefling gets anyways, along with dropping the ability to cast darkness, and my resistances. so would you say it would be better to just taking the +1 LA or staying Human?

[KicktheCAN]

As Righteous Doggy said, just play a Lesser Tiefling. They get everything a tiefling does except the Outsider type and they have a +0 level adjustment.

[Righteous Doggy]

But no, if i was going to play the cut down version, I have to add the -2 Con to everything the Tiefling gets anyways, along with dropping the ability to cast darkness, and my resistances. so would you say it would be better to just taking the +1 LA or staying Human?

huh, well... then won't you just have a character with attribute changes and darkvision? isn't that balanced enough without the con hit?

Edit: especiallly if people think a regular lesser tiefling is a hit enough...

[Olfgar]

Yeah i thought so to, but apparently making the d6 class take a hit to con makes being able to see in the dark fair.

[Olfgar]

Oh just thought of something.

I dont think my DM would like my shennanigans of getting every thing a tiefling has, with no drawback for having a +0 LA, jusst by changing from Outsider to Humanoid (How does being an outsider give you a +1 LA anyways?)

[Righteous Doggy]

Yeah i thought so to, but apparently making the d6 class take a hit to con makes being able to see in the dark fair.

Unequal scores(totaling more than +2), Spell like abilities, darkvision, resistances, and alternate subtypes all add up to an LA. Depending on who was editing at a given moment, +1 is lenient or not. Darkness/Daylight aren't uber lifesaving useful, Darkvision you can get cheap(2nd level arcane spell, last almost all day by level 8, permenancy!), but that subtype makes you immune to half a dozen spells and allows you to abuse polymorph. + free martial proficiency(which can be pretty snazzy!)

I'd argue that your more than equal, but I usually play humans if given a choice. I can use one feat to get a racial feature sometimes, and its easy to fluff that I happen to have a trait or two of an outsider but no abilities.

[Olfgar]

Really? I havent seen anything about being immune to spells, just low resistances to fire, cold and elec.

Also, how do they abuse polymorph? (Never played a Tiefling before).

[Righteous Doggy]

Really? I havent seen anything about being immune to spells, just low resistances to fire, cold and elec.

Also, how do they abuse polymorph? (Never played a Tiefling before).

Its not about being a tiefling. Its that you can polymorph into other outsiders. Polymorph is good as is, but you have a very powerful list of species to transform into when your an outsider. And your not immune becuase of the resistances, its because your not humanoid anymore. Hold Person, Dominate Person, Charm Person, you see whats going on here? Get Psionics to burn more power points just to get them to affect you, and other casters to burn up a higher level slot, or even waste it becuase your DM forgot what you were!

[Olfgar]

Huh...i totaly gapped that you needed to be Humanoid to be affected by hold person etc.

And otusiders have an extra list of polymorph-able creatures? never kenw that. Where can I find all these things (doing a failed google search atm)

[Olfgar]

I totaly fail to see why some people consider them to be an underpowerd +1 LA race if they are immune to spells like that...And apparently the polymorph thing to, which I still havent found in google yet...STOP FAILING ME GOOGLE!

[Righteous Doggy]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872134/The_Complete_Polymorph_Thread_3.5
Wonderful Resource, but you get a nice big snazzy list of demons/angels/hags/whatevers to turn into. And most of them can still carry weapons and cast spells... oh, and fly of course, with nice nat armor. of course, abusing this is a good way to annoy the crap out of any reasonable DM.

Huh, well, not everyone gets polymorph and eventually all these nice skills they get from all this are overcome. Only 5 resis? thats cool, I was casting save or die anyway, and you did lose out on saving throws for that LA... Downside of LA, and a good reason to use buyout. Lots of reasons to view it either way, I'm just answering what you asked.

[2xMachina]

Polymorph has a set list + your own creature type.


The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin.

You're an outsider? You can polymorph to other outsiders.

EDIT: Also LA really sucks, that's why people think LA races are underpowered. At best, they become an ok trade. Since you lose out on a lvl in any class, which keeps you behind in HP, class features, etc.

Exception is Saint, which is damn good. Also, an applied template, so you're over CRed for a while rather than ~CR

[KicktheCAN]

Huh...i totaly gapped that you needed to be Humanoid to be affected by hold person etc.

And otusiders have an extra list of polymorph-able creatures? never kenw that. Where can I find all these things (doing a failed google search atm)

Polymorph can turn the subject into any creature of its original type or the types listed. Thus, outsiders can be polymorphed into other outsiders.

If you want to know why people consider them weak for a +1 race, compare them to Aasimar in the same section. Aasimar are almost identical except that they don't take a penalty to any ability score, they just get two bonuses. Keep in mind that even Aasimar are very weak and not worth it and Tieflings are worse than them.

Lesser Tieflings are about on par with humans as far as power-level goes.

[Olfgar]

See, I woulnt mind going for lesser Tiefling, but im not sure if my Dm would go for it, even if I lost the outsider type, along with making me drop the resistances, darkness, AND a -2 to Con...maybe If I point out that I will just turn into the god damned Balrogand gandalf his NPC's he might let me xD

[Lonely Tylenol]

If at all humanly possible, just play a Lesser Tiefling. Bonuses to two of your best stats, a serviceable penalty to a dumpable stat (but a racial bonus to Bluff, so you still come out a head), a racial bonus to Bluff and Hide (two of the better Rogue skills), 60 ft. Darkvision, Darkness, and three energy resistances (weak, but a free lunch, and at entry level they may still actually be useful) for +0 LA. The only drawback is that you're humanoid instead of an outsider, which means you aren't abusing Polymorph (which is banned often and it sounds like you didn't know about the options anyway), and you are affected by spells that target humanoids (which include Charm Person, = bad, but also Enlarge/Reduce Person, = good).

If your DM vetoes that (I don't see why; it's good, but it's not like it's bannable), I'd go with a Human.

[KicktheCAN]

See, I woulnt mind going for lesser Tiefling, but im not sure if my Dm would go for it, even if I lost the outsider type, along with making me drop the resistances, darkness, AND a -2 to Con...maybe If I point out that I will just turn into the god damned Balrogand gandalf his NPC's he might let me xD

See, what you are describing is ten times worse than a human. Lesser Tieflings are already susceptible to everything that targets outsiders and humans and they don't get a free feat. An extra feat may not seem that big but it is actually the best thing any LA +0 race gets.

[Olfgar]

You know what, right now, for me, its down to normal Tiefling vs Human. The extra feat is good, but now that i know ive got the opprotunity to buy a magic item/scroll/wand to polymorph and not tell the DM mmy plans untill i turn into a demon, and just Balrog some poor NPC boss he had in mind it sounds pretty good and I may not mind the +1LA.

That Or ill agree to his no darkness, no resist and adding -2 Con and just go something like this:

STR 12
DEX 16 (including Tief +2Dex)
CON 14 (including new -2 Con)
INT 16(Including Tief +2Int)
WIS 10
CHA 12 (including Tief -2 Cha)

and STILL get the immunities plus the abusing polymorph (which he probably hasnt thought of anyways) with no LA to boot

[2xMachina]

Polymorph has a HD cap mind you. If you have 6 HD, you can only polymorph into outsiders with a HD of 6 at most. Still pretty good.

Also, springing out something on a DM isn't very good. He might get upset and houserule that it doesn't work.

Hmm, if the choice is 1 LA for resistance, darkness and 2con. I'm thinking take 0LA

[Olfgar]

Again like I said before. He probably wont go for this Lesser Tiefling race, as he probably hasnt really clicked in to the whole Outsider part yet (kind of like I was when i started this thread), and thus thinks the resistances and spell (as...limited as it is) are the things that really give it a +1 LA.

If i let him know about the Type change, he may still just get me to take some of those things for the cut down Tiefling.

EDIT: Hes stubborn, but pulling stuff on him is always fun, especially when we've already de railed his campaign in spectacular ways, including the time where I dragged his planned boss from a high pedestal with a grappling hook, and our Sorc murderd or other prisoner, or cleric decided to smack him with his mace, rolled a crit, got full damage, and killed him in one blow, causing the Paladin who had just walked into the room to see that act for no apparent reason, so he brought him to town for a trial, he got hanged, and ym fighter was the only original party member form the beggining of the quest within 2 days.

[Aeryr]

Also, springing out something on a DM isn't very good. He might get upset and houserule that it doesn't work.

This. Why would you go for "punishing" the DM? If you want to do that trick tell him.

And consider being humanoid so you can alter self yourself (much lower level than polymorph) into a Skulk, they are great for rogues. Since you already want to do tricks.

[Morph Bark]

So, Im planning on playing a Rogue (with levels into other classes, suchas Swashbuckler and Assassin). We will be using a 32 point buy, and I am trying to decide Between playing a normal human, (bonus feat is win), Tiefling (some nice things for a rogue here to) OR, a cut down version of the Tiefling so that it does not have the +1 LA By changing the following:

-Cannot cast Darkness
-Lose resistance to Fire, Cold and Electricity
- a -2 to Con (along with the normal +2 Dex, +2 Int and -2 Cha)

What is the playground thoughts on these 2 and a half races?

PS: Its only between these 3 for my flavour becaus they will fit the feel of my character better for me.

If you played a Tiefling with those alterations, it would be practical suicide for your character as you give up everything that is good about the Tiefling and get a penalty to the most necessary stat as well. It would be closer to an LA-1 race than an LA+0 race.

Lesser Tiefling (PGtF) is the way to go. Elsewise, there is also an LA+0 Tiefling on the wizards site that can become the LA+1 version by taking a "level" in Tiefling.

[Diarmuid]

Just go ask your DM if you can play a lesser tiefling. Stop guessing and move on with it.

[Chronos]

It's worth noting that the lesser planetouched races come from a Forgotten Realms book, and Faerun tends to be higher-power than standard D&D. And in standard D&D, races with a net positive to their ability scores always have LA. So if your DM decides to ban them, he's got a readily-available reason.

[2xMachina]

In which case, grab the great race of Human. Bonus feats, skill points, on par with your +2 stats any day.