[PF] Is A Council of Thieves Paladin Possible?

[Arillius]

I have a character who, if accepted into the campaign, I would like to see take levels of paladin in the future. That being said, I don't want to become useless or even a problem for the group in doing so. Now, I'm not talking rules lawyer wise. I don't know, nor do I want to know, the details of the campaign but I have been told breaking the law is something the party will do. From what I can read, the authority of the city the Adventure Path takes place in is legitimate. It also seems corrupt. I don't know where a paladin stands in that.

So, the questions.

Can a paladin be played in this adventure path?
Can a paladin be played without screwing up the group dynamic by not being allowed to do things?
etc.

[Nero24200]

From my experience a paladin is pretty viable in this campaign. Although certain elements of the campaign are against the local law the local law is very obviously corrupt.

I can see a paladin's views maybe causing issues with some party members if only because I feel the story encourages chaotic characters, but nothing really big enough to be a deal breaker as long as both sides act reasonably.

[Vknight]

The answers to your questions are the following.

A Paladin must use the already established laws of a society to change them to be good aligned.
Though good to free the slaves he can't because its not lawful. But in the same merit he does not need to help return a free slave, unless a law is invoked.
A Paladin must follow the laws but strive to change them to good.
So if the group is being Robin Hood then a Paladin cannot willfully take part in there actions.
So its a yes no answer. Yes you can help the party but only through legal means so you cannot help in any attack on a government body

I'd say don't do it unless your a strong role-player and don't mind missing combats because otherwise your Paladin could no longer be a paladin.
This can make the group feel like you don't want to help them and agree with the governmental body so I'd avoid it

[Arillius]

Hmm... interesting. From your opinions and others that I've heard, it really all boils down to the DM's views. As for causing issues with other players that's a non issue. It'd be hard to describe why, but it's part of the character.

I think I'll probably end up talking to the DM about it. I also plan on starting the guy as something else. That will let me test the waters and see just how often I'd be in the way.

As for strong roleplay, I think it would be -really- fun but that it would depend on the DM. We might find a good balance of what my guy can do and can't, we might find that the government is corrupt enough to count for illegitimate or we might be at an impasse and I'll have to find another way to level this guy. The DM sounds like a good one though, so hopefully things will work out.

[hamishspence]

The answers to your questions are the following.

A Paladin must use the already established laws of a society to change them to be good aligned.
Though good to free the slaves he can't because its not lawful. But in the same merit he does not need to help return a free slave, unless a law is invoked.
A Paladin must follow the laws but strive to change them to good.
So if the group is being Robin Hood then a Paladin cannot willfully take part in there actions.
So its a yes no answer. Yes you can help the party but only through legal means so you cannot help in any attack on a government body

I tend to disagree- mostly because the Save My Game article on Law and Chaos tends to suggest paladins are not bound to follow the law if it's evil or illegitimate:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a


A paladin is both lawful and good, and she must uphold both aspects of her alignment. Thus, if the laws in a particular realm are corrupt and evil, she is under no obligation to obey them.

[Arillius]

Oooh, an article. An interesting one too. Thank you Hamishspence. In the end I think it comes down to how the DM feels about that.

I thank you all for your advice.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Yeah. For me, the paladin has always been more about Good than Law. Talk to your DM about how he feels about the issue. If he agrees that you can violate local laws in pursuit of your own code, go for it.

[Sith_Happens]

I tend to disagree- mostly because the Save My Game article on Law and Chaos tends to suggest paladins are not bound to follow the law if it's evil or illegitimate:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a

The Book of Exalted Deeds also spells out in some detail (first new paragraph on page 11, part of the "Divided Loyalties" section) that, as a general rule, a paladin should choose Good over Lawful if it comes down to it.

[Analytica]

In Pathfinder, why not just use Inquisitor or Cleric to achieve the same effect, but with less of a mechanical code limitation? You could even call yourself a paladin (templar, crusader, sacred knight, holy champion...), just not use the class as such.

[Nero24200]

The Book of Exalted Deeds also spells out in some detail (first new paragraph on page 11, part of the "Divided Loyalties" section) that, as a general rule, a paladin should choose Good over Lawful if it comes down to it.
Makes sense considering paladins gain Smite Evil, not Smite Chaos. Also being lawful does not mean following the law.

[hamishspence]

That said (again according to BOED) which Lawful Good characters at the high end of the Good scale, like paladins, tend to put Good first, they are also not keen on overthrowing regimes simply because of corruption- they prefer to try and reform them, "fighting the corruption from within".

I'd say it's up to the DM and the players how "revolutionary" a paladin can get.

In Dragon 358, it says that breaking the law "simply because you feel it is inappropriate, or it hinders your pursuit of justice"- isn't on. It's authorities whose actions support the cause of evil, which you can disobey without it being problematic.

[KnightDisciple]

I'm in Council of Thieves right now, and we haven't really had any troubles. Our gnome summoner can get a bit rowdy, but the rest of us keep him in line. But our paladin hasn't faced any danger of falling or the like.

[navar100]

Think of it this way. The Mafia, a criminal organization that wantonly breaks the laws of the land, is itself a Lawful organization. Since it's possible to break the law and still be Lawful, that does not prohibit a paladin from doing so. The motive, of course, makes all the difference.

If the "legitimate" government is evil, then a paladin can fight against it. Circumstances can warrant not doing it openly. As a stereotype, the paladin could be the son of an Important Person of the Government: Council member, the Baron, the Sheriff, Lord of Manor, etc. Perhaps the paladin was himself the Council member, Baron, Sheriff, Lord of Manor but was forced into hiding. Joining the band of rogues, the paladin finds a way to fight back. He's not interested in the ill-gotten gains for the sake of having ill-gotten gains. He's fighting for the Cause.

[dps]

Yeah. For me, the paladin has always been more about Good than Law. Talk to your DM about how he feels about the issue. If he agrees that you can violate local laws in pursuit of your own code, go for it.

Yes, in all things RPG, it eventually comes down to how the DM will deal with issues that arise. If you think that there might be a potential problem with what you want from your character, it's best to discuss it with the DM ahead of time.

[Waker]

As others have said, you Smite Evil, not Chaos. Also you have an Aura of Good, not Lawful Good.
That being said, if you still are worried about some difficulties with your code of conduct, you might consider taking the Chevalier prestige class. It gives you several Paladin abilities, like Aura of Courage and Smite.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

As has been said before, generally it's not that big a deal.

More specifically, in a diabolist-ruled, shadow-haunted cesspit like Westcrown, the law is incredibly limp-wristed in the first place. The guards are hamstrung by the Hellknights chasing anyone they suspect of "sedition" or "rebellion," and the nobles are too concerned with their own follies to really care about what the peasants are doing. Not to mention the city's kind of being run by criminals already. The Adventure Path IS called Council of Thieves, after all. And I think the most skullduggerous stuff you actually do happens early on, and even then, you're not so much committing a crime as much as you are dungeon crawling. The places you infiltrate are places nobody really goes anyway because it's too dangerous, so as long as you don't call direct attention to said infiltrations your deity's pretty much gonna give you a free pass.

In short, don't sweat it. :smallwink: