Question about an hydra druid. What would you do?

[Laharal]

One of my friend told me he'd join our game (we are lvl 11) with a ''special'' druid that could wildshape into a cryo hydra and do 11 attacks per round (1d10 each head) and under certain conditions could grow more heads.

Is that totally legit? I don't know.. even if it is totally legal.. I find it a bit OP, exaggerated or just plain out of flavour.

Have you ever been faced with that issue? Do you allow it? Ban it? Restrict it?
Am I too picky?

Thanks for your input ;)

[Ranting Fool]

Hydra's are "Magical Beasts" so unless the druid has a PrC class or feat that lets them be a Magical Beast then he/she is stuck with Normal animals / elementals..

Note: they are also Huge so they'd have to be high enough level to be a huge monster.

[Aethir]

He's referring to Frozen Wildshape, a feat which will do so when he gets access to Huge forms, but until then it is not an eligible form bar something else allowing that early.

[kardar233]

That would be probably Frozen Wildshape going for the 11-headed Cryohydra form. It's one feat, and the whole point of it is for that combo. Hydras are great Wildshape forms because they effectively have Pounce, and if you grab Assume Supernatural Ability you can breathe with all their heads.

[eggynack]

Alot of this has been stated already, but here's some specification. In its natural form, a druid is only capable of picking off the list of animals, plants and elementals. The feat frozen wildshape from frostburn allows a druid access to forms with the cold subtype off the magical beasts list, however like regular wildshape this ability is limited to size so a regular druid with frozen wildshape can only obtain cryohydra form at 15th. A work around for this limitation is the PrC master of many forms from complete adventurer which from its earliest entry (to my knowledge) at 6th gains access to huge wildshape forms at level 11. If this is the method your friend is using, then 11 headed cryohydra form at 11th is feasible.

[eggynack]

In terms of how powerful these abilities are, the matter is entirely relative. If the character is using master of many forms, as he probably is if the build is legal, then he's removed his casting and animal companion advancement for this form. That path is worse than straight druid due to the fact that in D&D casting is king. However, it's entirely plausible that the character he has constructed for himself is entirely broken. If your game consists of low tier classes like a fighter, a monk and a paladin, then it's likely that the character will overpower them, though that was true the second he became a druid. If the game has alot of wizards, clerics and other high tier characters then this druid will likely fit right in, and may even be a bit underpowered compared to the sheer versatility of prepared casting. If he's not using master of many forms, then unless there is another method of gaining huge wildshape before 15th then the player is cheating and will probably be quite overpowered. In that case point out the size error, and feel satisfied in the knowledge that by 15th, a 12 headed cryohydra likely isn't gamebreaking, although it's still very good.

[Togo]

I'd ban it. As someone who regularly plays masters of many forms, if a game didn't ban this combo, I'd have 2nd thoughts about whether I really wanted to play.

[eggynack]

I'd ban it. As someone who regularly plays masters of many forms, if a game didn't ban this combo, I'd have 2nd thoughts about whether I really w5 anted to play.

I think you'd need knowledge of the party's composition to be sure. Banning that method is actually likely to increase the character's total power due to the return of 6 levels of spellcasting. In a fight, I'd pick the caster with access to 6th level spells over the cryohydra without a breath weapon and 3rd level spells any day of the week, and that's leaving out comparitive versatility. Speaking of which, what is the party's composition? The question can't really be answered to any level of accuracy without that information.

[Laharal]

Many thanks for all of your constructive answers guys ;)

[eggynack]

You're welcome. Just remember to keep the tier list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) in mind when choosing whether or not to ban something. Generally a game works best when all members are within about two tiers of each other, and his build looks like a high tier 3 low tier 2. You shouldn't have too many balance problems if you stick to it. Though a massive hydra is likely to oneshot most enemies, he gained that power my sacrificing a great deal of versatility. You should also keep in mind the other abilities of master of many forms. He gets the ability to wildshape into abberations at 11th, and that with assume supernatural ability can be pretty borked.

[Togo]

At levels 12-16, peak power for the class, a properly built MoMFs is more capable than a spellcaster of similar level. It's only Tier 2 because it's weaker at other levels. It has a greater range of abilities than the caster on any given day, and is noticably tougher in straight combat. Think of it as a class that uses the all the monster manuals as its spellbook. I know it's close to heresy on these boards to suggest a non-spellcaster can be powerful, but really, don't underestimate these guys. Spellcasters aren't the only ones who can break games.

In a fight, I'd pick the caster with access to 6th level spells over the cryohydra without a breath weapon and 3rd level spells any day of the week, and that's leaving out comparitive versatility.

Sure. I'd pick a class over a feature too. That's not really the point. The point is that the DM is probably expecting to handle 6th level spells, but 11-12 no penalty attacks on a charge is the kind of thing that tosses your encounter construction out the window.

It's not impossible to have in a game, but you will need to rewrite your adventure to accomodate it. Just like you would for any broken spellcaster combos, or anything else you'd want to ban.

[Runestar]

I wouldn't be too worried about this combination. The Druid has medium bab, and the hydra doesn't have that impressive a strength score either, so his attack won't be all that great. Not to mention dr will be his major achielles heel. Plus, cold resistance applies to each of his eleven breaths, so you won't really be doing any damage at all past mid levels. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

It can be difficult to handle, but not impossible. As you pointed out it's at tier two, which is an assessment I agree with and is the approximate place I put it in my post. The decision on whether or not to disallow this combination should be largely dependent on the relative power of this character versus the other characters in the party. Another point I'm making is that if a hydra druid is disallowed, then the thing that is likely to occur is an actual druid, which I contend is more powerful and potentially disruptive to a campaign. In a low tier game, this idea should probably be stopped because it completely overpowers melee combatants, but in a high tier game it's an efficient way to fill the melee slot without losing too much power relative to the wizards. Everything in game balance is relative.

I disagree with your notion that the MoMF overpowers a caster at higher levels. Extraordinary wildshape is a great ability, but it's one that the druid has been matching since level 7 with enhanced wildshape. The creatures that a MoMF can become likely overpower an equivalently leveled caster in direct combat, but that's not where a caster excels. This character will only find the answers to problems whose solution is to become a really powerful creature. Granted, that solves alot of problems, but not as many as a wizard of that level is going to be able to solve.

[Urpriest]

Note that the growing more heads part is highly dubious. A Hydra's ability to grow more heads is not an (Ex) ability, it's not even in its statblock, it's in the strategy section of its Combat entry. That might make it a natural ability, or something else entirely, and as such there's no way of knowing whether it's granted by wild shape.

[Marnath]

I wouldn't be too worried about this combination. The Druid has medium bab, and the hydra doesn't have that impressive a strength score either, so his attack won't be all that great. Not to mention dr will be his major achielles heel. Plus, cold resistance applies to each of his eleven breaths, so you won't really be doing any damage at all past mid levels. :smalltongue:

Is that how it works? I thought the way the monster entry was worded is that they have one breath weapon created by all their heads together that has a combined area of 10x10x20 and does 3d6 for each head involved.

[nedz]

Is that how it works? I thought the way the monster entry was worded is that they have one breath weapon created by all their heads together that has a combined area of 10x10x20 and does 3d6 for each head involved.

Well the text does say Each jet deals 3d6 ... which would imply seperate attacks.

Presumably each head recovers its breath weapon independantly, though the text does not seem too clear on that ?

[Togo]

The decision on whether or not to disallow this combination should be largely dependent on the relative power of this character versus the other characters in the party.

Sure, you need to match capabilities, and also consider what else is being banned. Since we're talking about banning one combination, it seems likely that other things are also banned.


Another point I'm making is that if a hydra druid is disallowed, then the thing that is likely to occur is an actual druid, which I contend is more powerful and potentially disruptive to a campaign.

I disagree with your notion that the MoMF overpowers a caster at higher levels.

Understood. For the levels being talked about, we disagree.



I disagree with your notion that the MoMF overpowers a caster at higher levels. Extraordinary wildshape is a great ability, but it's one that the druid has been matching since level 7 with enhanced wildshape.

Not really. Enhanced wildshape is:
-Limited to your next form, meaning you either have to decide well in advance what you need, forgo wildshape until you use it, or spend a round during the encounter casting it.
-A 4th level spell. You can cast it maybe 4 times a day.


This character will only find the answers to problems whose solution is to become a really powerful creature. Granted, that solves alot of problems, but not as many as a wizard of that level is going to be able to solve.

No, the MoMFs can solve any problem that can be solved by a creature in any monster book published. The caster can only solve things covered by the spells prepared that day.

It sounds like you're assuming MoMFs is just used to make you strong in melee. That's a bit like assuming casters just blast people. Both are outclassed in damage by straight melee specialists. It's the utility powers and flexibility that make them high tier. Giving a flexible tier 2 character the ability to push out vast amounts of melee damage on top of everything else, and you're severing yet another link that might otherwise pull towards a balanced party. The problem with the hydra form is the same as giving a sorceror excellent melee damage - you're reinforcing something the character is traditionally weaker at, and potentially making it even more flexible than it was already.

I don't think we're a million miles away from each other, I'm just saying that if want to let someone play this kind of character, you need to be prepared to face something that is capable of subverting encounters in the same way as a caster, and typically has a greater variety of powers with which to do so.

[Tvtyrant]

Note that the growing more heads part is highly dubious. A Hydra's ability to grow more heads is not an (Ex) ability, it's not even in its statblock, it's in the strategy section of its Combat entry. That might make it a natural ability, or something else entirely, and as such there's no way of knowing whether it's granted by wild shape.

He is probably going into Warshaper, and using the "grow extra attacks" part. That is the usual prestige added after MoMF in my experience.

[Urpriest]

He is probably going into Warshaper, and using the "grow extra attacks" part. That is the usual prestige added after MoMF in my experience.

11th level means he only has enough levels to get wildshape in the first place and go to MoMF 6 in time for huge. No spare Warshaper.

[Acanous]

Alternatively he could be using a race with a small LA to qualify for MoMF early-entry, but then he's losing out on more casting. Still, it'd be barely doable to pull a level or two of Warshaper.

The real argument is that yes, what he's doing is probably rules-legal, it's not the end of the world and if you're clever it shouldn't break your game. If you believe it will be a problem, consider using intelligent opponents, traps, and tight corridors more often.